Characters - spoilers possible

[[deleted user]]

I wanted to give this some thought; I even went back to the book. This is indeed a case of her environment working against her. Fanny had some attention, even love perhaps, as a child: she could read and write and was taught how to behave and most likely taken to church. She had a good friend in her brother, too. Her great misfortune was in being brought into a house, at a young age, where everyone treated her as an inferior. Edmund was genuinely kind to her, he gave her paper, a horse of her own. But, he didn't care enough about her to get a fire put into her room. And, as soon as Mary Crawford arrived, he needed Fanny to prop him up in his efforts to secure MC's hand. It's no wonder that Fanny was unable to assert herself. She had been oppressed for so many years, coupled with her own timid nature. It is a wonder that she refused everyone's pressures to marry Henry Crawford.

So, I agree with you. Fanny had none of the advantages that Elinor did.

But, what is the point that Austen was trying to make with this story? Fanny was good and gentle; she got the man she loved. Do you think this was really a good thing? I can't imagine that Edward did much to bring her out of herself. "Loving, guiding, protecting her, as he had been doing ever since her being ten years old, her mind in so great a degree formed by his care, and her comfort depending on his kindness...dearer with all his own importance with her.." They were both happy in their own quiet, homey ways. I just think Fanny deserved better. Maybe it's just that I'm looking at it through modern eyes. I want her to have more.

Sisters can be a pain -- I think you got brains and looks! :)

[SarahC, Austen Votary & Mods' Asst.]

Yes, Jeannette, I agree -- Other Sarah's sister should get involved in a nineteenth-century literary discussion with you folk! She might find it a bit challenging!

I truly wonder what Austen would tell us about Fanny and Edmund, if she could give us an interview. What kind of match they truly made. However, I have to step in for Edmund and say that he was raised by his father and Mrs. Wonderful -- Mrs. Norris to keep away from Fanny -- she should only be thought of as a sister (yeah, right), but that's what they said. So he had some brainwashing working against him to be too romantic with Fanny.

Also, I have to admit, Fanny and Edmund have grown up a little after being exposed to the real world -- the Crawfords. They probably can grow to appreciate each other more after that. They are obviously very innocent youth before the story takes place. They have also experienced Maria's downfall and Tom's near downfall. And have also seen that Sir Thomas's judgment has been flawed.

Maybe if you look to the fictional future, Fanny did have more, so to speak.

The people in this story are flawed people. The type that intend to adopt and help a poor relative, but don't really know how. Maybe that fire in Fanny's room is very symbolic. Not like she could switch on the electric heater and get toasty. And she was nine years old in the beginning! And the other characters like Mary Crawford. Ego-centric and remorseless. Mary says of herself, "Selfishness must be forgiven you know, because there is no hope of a cure." Right, in your case, Mary.

So in Mansfield we see a family, wealthy, but with many weaknesses, dazzled by those without substance and ignoring the logical, the things resting right beside their own hearts (Fanny).

[[deleted user]]

Definitely! A well-meaning, but stand-offish (is that a word?) uncle, his indolent wife, who can't bother with her own children; and they leave everything up to the nasty Mrs. Norris. I am being too harsh with Fanny. Sir Thomas and Edmund come to see what Henry Crawford saw all along -- Fanny is a gem with a good heart.

[Marilyn]

I've been catching up on comments to this thread this morning and have absolutely *loved* the insights and varying perspectives shared about Fanny. You've all helped me to appreciate her a bit more and to be reminded of the specific areas where her life's circumstances differed from that of Elinor's or the other heroines'.

And, as Sarah, Jeannette and others have also said, I've found myself wondering--repeatedly--WHY Austen was driven to write this book. What sparked her fascination with Fanny? To what extent did she (or didn't she) identify with that character? What message was she most trying to impart to her readers? (And, having sold a couple of other novels and achieving some measure of success with them, she would have had to have known that a reasonably wide audience for MP would be assured.)

I wonder if there are some clues in her letters written at that time or in some of the biographies that might hint at what made Austen passionate about this book...

[Annet]

Marilyn wrote: "I've been catching up on comments to this thread this morning and have absolutely *loved* the insights and varying perspectives shared about Fanny. You've all helped me to appreciate her a bit more and to be reminded of the specific areas where her life's circumstances differed from that of Elinor's or the other heroines'"

I could not agree more. I was not able to follow the thread for a while and I am absolutely amazed now that I have been able to catch up. Thank you so much for mentioning Elinor and taking this forward, all of you...

[SarahC, Austen Votary & Mods' Asst.]

I have really been enjoying the Mansfield discussion. So much about this novel that I have been making my effort at figuring out. I am glad I read it again and gave it my real attention. Please bring up any points you would like, there may be other members who are just now completing it and would like to start some threads also.

[[deleted user]]

I certainly softened my opinion of Fanny after being involved in the discussion. Very enjoyable.

[Amy]

****SPOILERS****
I actually ended up liking characters that I thought I would hate. Like for Fanny. I love her! I wonder what she would have turned out like if she grew up in Portsmouth instead of Mansfield. She def. wouldn't be the Fanny I have come to love for her unwavering beliefs and convictions.
I do not see Edmund as a weak character. I feel for him because he did what many other guys would have done when he falls for a beautiful Mary Crawford. He's a good guy who believes that Mary is ultimately the same. She became "a creature of his own imagination." I think of course everyone has the tendency to sometimes see a person they like and by love be blinded.
I like Sir Thomas (surprisingly)and Lady Bertram (even more surprisingly). She at least has some (selfish) need and want for Fanny. I love how Sir Thomas' feelings and thoughts are canvassed in the last chapter.
The Crawfords- Henry had some hope. I seriously thought he was changing for the good (even though I knew the outcome). I really thought he loved Fanny even though he started out with bad intentions. And if I started on Mary Crawford I'd be here forever :) I'm sure we all know many Mary Crawfords and try to avoid them when possible!

[Michael]

I find myself agreeing very much with Sarah. What I see in Fanny is a young woman with no wealth and no social status trapped in the home of a distant, wealthy, titled relative. She has no voice because she is not in a position to have one and she knows it. She has no one to protect her or take up her cause. She cannot speak up for herself for she lives under the unspoken but constant threat of being expelled if she rebels, and this is exactly what happens when she refuses the offer of marriage from Henry. Fanny is abused by Mrs. Norris and ignored by nearly all the rest, in spite of all the good she does them. She is beset on all sides, even by Edmond, who should know better. Nevertheless, she never compromises.

It is as though Jane Austen took all of the best moral characteristics of all of her other heroines, removed every possible source of support or encouragement, then stepped back to see what happened. With no family or friends to love and encourage her, physically weak, stripped of all support with no hope of success or rescue, Fanny stands firm in her convictions. This is what makes her a heroine, and what makes her ultimate vindication so sweet and triumphant.

My two bits.

[Bill]

Jane might have known something of Fanny's situation. She was sent away to school twice and we can conjecture from some evidence that she was not happy in either place. In addition, she was raised outside the home until she was done nursing and then removed from what would have seemed to be her family and placed in her actual mother's home. So there was some disruption in Jane's life.