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Dostoyevsky, Demons
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Week 7: Part II, chapters 8, 9, and 10
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Roger
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Feb 10, 2021 05:26AM
Chapter 8, "Ivan the Tsarevich": Pyotr Stepanovich leaves the meeting and catches up with Nikolai Vsevolodovich and Kirillov at the latter's lodgings. He is talking wildly, angrily, almost insanely. He wants Nikolai to give him 1500 roubles to give to Lebyadkin so that Fedka the Convict can murder him for it, and maybe his sister too. Nikolai wants none of it and leaves. Pyotr follows, plucking at his sleeve and pleading. "We're going to cause real trouble." He talks about his revolutionary plans to promote drunkenness, gossip, denunciation, and depravity. He admires Nikolai's simpleheartedness, and admits that he himself is a scoundrel and a nihilist. He needs Nikolai's help. He wants him to be an "Ivan the Tsarevich," a mystical revolutionary leader in hiding. Nikolai isn't buying it. As he enters his house, Pyotr yells, "Your account comes due!"
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Chapter 9, "A Search at Stepan Trofimovich's": Meanwhile, Blum shows up at Stepan's lodging and searches it, taking away a wheelbarrow full of papers. Stepan is secretly pleased at the attention and cooperates fully. He prepares to be arrested and sent to Siberia. He is terribly afraid of being flogged, and of being disgraced in Varvara Petrovna's eyes. He can't stand waiting. He goes to the governor to turn himself in.
Chapter 10, "Filibusters. A Fateful Morning": About 70 of the Shpigulin workers go to the governor's house to respectfully petition for redress. The governor is out; he is wandering in stunned despair after confronting his wife at 2 AM and raving that her manipulation of him must stop (she just looked at him in contemptuous silence). A police lieutenant finds him and he returns. He orders people flogged. Stepan Trofimovich walks into this scene. He tries to join the "rebellion," but the narrator gets him into the governor's house. The governor enters, still distracted. Stepan protests his search; the governor raves about manifestos and threats to society. Blum enters; the governor recovers somewhat and apologizes for the search. The governor's wife enters with her young entourage, including Karamazinov, Varvara Petrovna, Lizaveta Nikolayevna, Mavriky Nikolayevich, and Lyamshin. She ignores her husband and takes Stepan into her parlor. Pyotr Stepanovich and Nikolai Vsevolodovich soon join the group. Yulia Mikhaylovna, the governor's wife, starts flattering Stepan to get him to read at her gala. The governor slips in, goes up to Stepan, squeezes his hand and says "The filibusters of our time have been identified," then leaves. People think he's crazy. Yulia follows him out, returns in 5 minutes, and starts a gala planning meeting. Lizaveta calls out to Nikolai: his brother-in-law Lebyadkin has been writing her indecent letters, she wants him to make it stop. Nikolai admits the relationship. "He will not bother you any more." Varvara is horrified.
Opening question: What does Pyotr Stepanovich want to accomplish in his revolution? What kind of society does he envision, and how does he plan to achieve it?
I would classify the form of government Pyotr wishes to form as a Junta followed by an Oligarchy with himself, Nikolai, and perhaps a few others in control.
Pyotyr calls himself a nihilist and a crook, and if his raving is to be believed, he wants to set Nikolai up as a cult figure. It doesn't sound like he has a plan for society, just a desire to destroy it and have some fun with his friends in the process.
Thomas wrote: "Pyotyr calls himself a nihilist and a crook, and if his raving is to be believed, he wants to set Nikolai up as a cult figure. It doesn't sound like he has a plan for society, just a desire to dest..."I also have the feeling that Pyotr is only driven by his appetite for destruction, he has no long term plans for society.
I find Nikolai a far more interesting and dynamic character than Pyotr. Most of us despised him at the beginning: antisocial, spoiled and presumably mad, he looked like one of the main antagonists of the novel. Gradually we started to sympathise with him and right now he's (at least for me) one of the few likeable characters.
Pyotr sounds like a raving lunatic. I'm not sure what kind of society he wants to set up. I agree he is more focused on destroying than on building. He also appears to be obsessed with Nikolai--perhaps because the latter is charismatic. He wants to set up some sort of mysterious aura around Nikolai with all his talk of having him issue judgments while in hiding—as if he were a mystical cult figure.
Pyotr is very calculating and manipulative. He always struck me as being in control, as if he were calmly moving people around on a chess board with everything falling into place according to his plan. But he seems to be a very different Pyotr when he talks with Nikolai here. He sounds desperate and in a panic in how he pleads with Nikolai--as if his whole scheme will fall apart without Nikolai's cooperation.
Emil wrote: "...I find Nikolai a far more interesting and dynamic character than Pyotr. Most of us despised him at the beginning: antisocial, spoiled and presumably mad, he looked like one of the main antagonists of the novel. Gradually we started to sympathise with him and right now he's (at least for me) one of the few likeable characters."Indeed, there are so few likeable characters that even Nikolai, with beer, can be digestible.
With all his flaws, I somewhat sympathize with Stepan, a tragic fugure -- as all of them seem to be; yet, by some reason, I feel sorry for him more than for anybody else.
Tamara wrote: "...He also appears to be obsessed with Nikolai--perhaps because the latter is charismatic. He wants to set up some sort of mysterious aura around Nikolai with all his talk of having him issue judgments while in hiding—as if he were a mystical cult figure...."
Without meaning to fire up a hearty debate (I am not a real expert in the following, just a Russian), on a lark, putting out there a popular belief (at least among many Russians):
I dare not say -- up to today, but for centuries, maybe from the time of Moscovite Tsardom, well into the 20th century, for the Russian people, the faith in the Tsar, preferably good tsar, was a necessity. If you want to seize power - forget ideologies, a Tsar is key. Apparently, for Pyotr, it was a fundamental belief.
And to add my personal observation:
Ideologies did work in Russia, and dramatically, but only temporarily and when the 'Tsar' failed badly.
And then there was that delightfully amusing sentence at the start of chapter 10:
"But I must tell everything in order" (435).
"But I must tell everything in order" (435).
Bigollo wrote: "I dare not say -- up to today, but for centuries, maybe from the time of Moscovite Tsardom, well into the 20th century, for the Russian people, the faith in the Tsar, preferably good tsar, was a necessity. .."Bigollo, just to make sure I understand you correctly, are you saying that when Pyotr suggests Nikolai assumes the guise of Ivan the Tsarevitch, he is calling upon long-held beliefs that the Tsar was perceived as some sort of unifying, spiritual force like some sort of prophet?
Chapter 8. Because I’m reading for religion and demons, for myself, the opening paragraph suggests a number of things. Symbolically, PSV is further portrayed as an unclean character. “sinking to his knees in mud” (413). “Gate”, for me, immediately brings up religious connotations. Everyone with a religious background knows the verse. Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat. So that thought plays in the background.
And since I’m thus already thinking of PSV in these terms, the impression is furthered due to PSV’s haste. “Pyotr S first rushed… and was flying down the road… As he ran…and in fact arrived at a run.” Proverbs 21:5 KJV "The thoughts of the diligent [tend] only to plenteousness; but of every one [that is] hasty only to want.”
I see additional suggestions of his unclean spirit: “His face became distorted, the corners of his mouth twitched… he suddenly burst into somehow altogether pointless laughter [See Background thread]
NVS and PSV are paused on the threshold. [See Background thread. Thresholds can be dangerous places… more open to the influence of demons]
‘Why the devil do you need me?”
“On the threshold, out of the darkness”…Fedka. “He stood on the threshold but would not come into the room.”
Stavrogin grabs PSV “with his left [sinister] hand.”
“But before he had walked even thirty steps…” This may be nothing more than thirty steps. Didn’t Freud say, “Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.”?? Yet with a religious sub-story one immediately thinks of the thirty pieces of silver that Judas took to betray Christ. Is there going to be a betrayal? Had PSV been PLANNING to betray NSV? ("You've run up too big of an account now, I really can't renounce you!) I don’t know. But it certainly crosses my mind.
“But what the devil do you need me for, finally!”
Later, PSV “kept seizing Stavrogin by the left sleeve” (419).
The chapter ends with PSV shouting after NVS…”Everything will rise!” (422). ”three days”(423) … It may or may not be meant to invoke thoughts of Christ rising after three days. Is NVS to rise as a “new man of Russia”…some sort of man-God…after three days.
And since I’m thus already thinking of PSV in these terms, the impression is furthered due to PSV’s haste. “Pyotr S first rushed… and was flying down the road… As he ran…and in fact arrived at a run.” Proverbs 21:5 KJV "The thoughts of the diligent [tend] only to plenteousness; but of every one [that is] hasty only to want.”
I see additional suggestions of his unclean spirit: “His face became distorted, the corners of his mouth twitched… he suddenly burst into somehow altogether pointless laughter [See Background thread]
NVS and PSV are paused on the threshold. [See Background thread. Thresholds can be dangerous places… more open to the influence of demons]
‘Why the devil do you need me?”
“On the threshold, out of the darkness”…Fedka. “He stood on the threshold but would not come into the room.”
Stavrogin grabs PSV “with his left [sinister] hand.”
“But before he had walked even thirty steps…” This may be nothing more than thirty steps. Didn’t Freud say, “Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.”?? Yet with a religious sub-story one immediately thinks of the thirty pieces of silver that Judas took to betray Christ. Is there going to be a betrayal? Had PSV been PLANNING to betray NSV? ("You've run up too big of an account now, I really can't renounce you!) I don’t know. But it certainly crosses my mind.
“But what the devil do you need me for, finally!”
Later, PSV “kept seizing Stavrogin by the left sleeve” (419).
The chapter ends with PSV shouting after NVS…”Everything will rise!” (422). ”three days”(423) … It may or may not be meant to invoke thoughts of Christ rising after three days. Is NVS to rise as a “new man of Russia”…some sort of man-God…after three days.
Bigollo wrote: "With all his flaws, I somewhat sympathize with Stepan, a tragic fugure -- as all of them seem to be; yet, by some reason, I feel sorry for him more than for anybody else."Same here. Have you noticed how Stepan switch to French when he's cornered? In chapter 9 he is so scared that he's talking almost exclusively in French.
The poor soul is not even sure if he's a member of a secret society:
"Stepan Trofimovitch, tell me as a friend,” I cried, “as a real friend, I will not betray you: do you belong to some secret society or not?”
And on this, to my amazement, he was not quite certain whether he was or was not a member of some secret society.
“That depends, voyez-vous.”
“How do you mean ‘it depends’?”
Tamara wrote: "...are you saying that when Pyotr suggests Nikolai assumes the guise of Ivan the Tsarevitch, he is calling upon long-held beliefs that the Tsar was perceived as some sort of unifying, spiritual force like some sort of prophet?."
Pretty much. I don’t know about ‘Prophet’, I think ‘Prophet' is a better fit for some other cultures.
Let me introduce one Russian word that may shed some light to the nuance we are talking about here.
Царь-батюшка (Tsar’-Batyushka).
This compound word was the most common referral to the Tsar, especially among common people, and used probably more often than just Царь (Tsar’). ‘Батюшка’ (Batyshka) is a very endearing version for ‘Father’, almost like ‘Daddy’.
So, Tsar, for the Russian people, was like a real father, whom you can plead to, and who would punish if needed and protect if needed.
If somebody wants to get a better feel for this tsar-father sentiment, I would strongly recommend this short, but very compact (said a lot) novel by Alexandr Pushkin – The Captain’s Daughter.
A literary pearl (imho), it’s a quick good read regardless of our subject at the moment. Beautiful language. A character utters a line or two and you already see very clear what kind of a person you are introduced to. One of the characters – Emelyan Pugachev – a historical figure. He was a big scale rebel (think of Spartak). As a necessary minimum for success, he HAD to declare himself as a real Tsar who had been deprived of the throne illegally. Compare that to Pyotr’s plead to Stavrogin..
Emil wrote: "Have you noticed how Stepan switch to French when he's cornered? In chapter 9 he is so scared that he's talking almost exclusively in French...."
I hadn't. SO cool!
I hadn't. SO cool!
Chapter 8: The world PSV envisions. And "Slaves must have their rulers."
The “equality” proposition…which appeals to the workers. But PSV says “They’re all slaves and equal in their slavery” (417). “Within the herd (the masses) there must be equality.”
"to level the mountains is a good idea” (so…not to raise people up, but to cut down those who have prospered). Take over the education system. Co-opt the judicial system. Put fear into people that they they’re “insufficiently liberal”
"How can a developed murderer not murder, if he needs money?” (Califnornia/Dallas/NYC. "Criminalizing poverty is counter-productive for our community’s health and safety” CA no prosecution for theft if under $950. Dallas none for under $750. NYC to consider looter’s “needs” before charging them.)
The “equality” proposition…which appeals to the workers. But PSV says “They’re all slaves and equal in their slavery” (417). “Within the herd (the masses) there must be equality.”
"to level the mountains is a good idea” (so…not to raise people up, but to cut down those who have prospered). Take over the education system. Co-opt the judicial system. Put fear into people that they they’re “insufficiently liberal”
"How can a developed murderer not murder, if he needs money?” (Califnornia/Dallas/NYC. "Criminalizing poverty is counter-productive for our community’s health and safety” CA no prosecution for theft if under $950. Dallas none for under $750. NYC to consider looter’s “needs” before charging them.)
Bigollo wrote: "Let me introduce one Russian word that may shed some light to the nuance we are talking about here.Царь-батюшка (Tsar’-Batyushka).
This compound word was the most common referral to the Tsar, especially among common people, and used probably more often than just Царь (Tsar’). ‘Батюшка’ (Batyshka) is a very endearing version for ‘Father’, almost like ‘Daddy’..."
Thank you, Bigollo. I really appreciate all the nuances in language you are sharing with us.
Tamara wrote: "But he seems to be a very different Pyotr when he talks with Nikolai here."I would argue that he’s a different Pyotr with everyone. He seems to project himself as a completely different personality depending on who he is speaking with. The only consistency is constant chatter.
That’s not to say that FMD made Pyotr inconsistent, but he’s overfamiliar with the governor and his wife, but deferential toward Nikolai, treats his father with disdain, but makes himself agreeable enough with Varvara. One wonders which version is the real Pyotr. Any of them?
Tamara wrote: “He always struck me as being in control, as if he were calmly moving people around on a chess board with everything falling into place according to his plan.”
I like that description.
Emil wrote: "..Have you noticed how Stepan switch to French when he's cornered? In chapter 9 he is so scared that he's talking almost exclusively in French.."Nice observation. I did not notice that. Maybe because I had already put a label on him: Ah, that geezer (geezer? – he’s younger than me!) can never speak Russian straight longer than a sentence without switching to French. And I was also probably annoyed by having to constantly shift my eyes down to the bottom of the page. :)
It reminds me of the noble folks in War and Peace. Those folks could not even think in Russian properly. Any more or less complicated thought -- and they start to stutter, break down, and switch to French.
But Stepan?! He’s a skillful practitioner of Russian with all his puns and lectures. Yet he does have this habit of switching into French, and so under a stress, as you noticed, has a harder time of controlling himself.
Either habit or.. Maybe despite him being a skillful Russian language speaker, his inner ‘I’ speaks actually French, and under stress, again, he has less resources to suppress it.
Come to think of it, the common mother tongue is an essential part of a nation’s unity. Somewhere between 18th and 19th centuries, Russian nobility (ruling class in huge minority) adapted French as everyday spoken language, and the tradition was kept up to Stepan’s generation, evidently. Maybe that is one of many symptoms of the antagonistic contradictions in the Russian society that eventually brought about that tragedy in the beginning of 20th century.
Bigollo wrote: "that tragedy in the beginning of 20th century..."Bigollo -- Meaning? Reference to?
Lily wrote: "Bigollo wrote: "that tragedy in the beginning of 20th century..."Bigollo -- Meaning? Reference to?"
I suppose he's referring to the Bolshevik Revolution.
Bigollo wrote: "It reminds me of the noble folks in War and Peace. Those folks could not even think in Russian properly. Any more or less complicated thought -- and they start to stutter, break down, and switch to French"
Stepan is smart enough to notice this behavior and to make fun of it:
“Ma foi, chère …” why? In the first place probably because I’m not a Pascal after all, et puis … secondly, we Russians never can say anything in our own language.… We never have said anything hitherto, at any rate.…”
(Book l, Chapter 2 - discussion with Varvara)
Aiden wrote: "I would argue that he’s a different Pyotr with everyone. He seems to project himself as a completely different personality depending on who he is speaking with. The only consistency is constant chatter..."Good point.
Reminds me of T. S. Eliot's The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock:
There will be time, there will be time
To prepare a face to meet the faces that you meet...
Emil wrote: "Have you noticed how Stepan switches to French when he's cornered? In chapter 9 he is so scared that he's talking almost exclusively in French...."!"
First---he's cornered. "STV was dawdling around the table and going into all the corners of the room, not conscious of his movements" (424).
So... the corners are where the demons might lurk...and STV isn't very conscious of what he's doing. Might demons enter one more easily when one isn't conscious of what one is doing?
But you got me thinking about STV this morning.
Stepan T V (intersperses his conversation with French)/ and Nicolai V Stavrogin
These two characters seem to me to be on opposite sides of a spectrum of autonomy or self-acceptance.
NVS has a very noble name through his father and comes from a long line of nobility. He knows who is---culturally, as a member of society, and as an individual. He’s not looking for any outside affirmation of his worth or value. I think that’s one of the reasons the others are so drawn to him. Yes, most of the money he spends probably comes from his mother---although he may have come into a small inheritance from his father on coming of age… but she has always readily supplied him… he may not even have had to ask. [“Varvara Petrovna sent him money without stint” (41).]
STV may not even know much about his family origins. His origins seem pretty vague. STV, in any case, didn’t share them with his close confident The Narrator… nothing to be proud about. {*} “Though his origins, it seems, were not high, it so happened that he had been brought up in an aristocratic house in Moscow, and, therefore, decently {! What does THAT say?}; he spoke French like a Parisian” (16).
STV dependent on an outside source for his standard of living. Like NSV, Varvara P provided the money---but STV was always aware of the fact that he was dependent.
STV is never secure in his own self--- it seems to me. “STV constantly played a certain special and, so to speak, civil role among us, and loved this role” (7). He never seems able to simply be himself… He’s always concerned and aware of how he’s presenting himself to others. How do THEY perceive him? He was constantly rehearsing his lines and witticisms, his gestures were rehearsed, the changes of clothing to present the “right” impression to others. “But our STV in truth was only an imitator…” (13).
His self-narrative guides his actions. “He was, for example, greatly enamored of his position as a “persecuted” man…(7). That’s why in “Stepan Trofimovich Perquisitioned,” he had “an unquestionably triumphant air” (424). The outside world is validating his self-narrative.
“Perquisitioned.” How marvelously apt! Your run-of-the-mill Russian would have been whatever the run-of-the-mill Russian word for “searched” is. But STV gets perquisitioned. The French.
It was your observation of how STV in Chapter 9 is speaking so very much French that got me thinking about him. Is it possible, that since French was spoken so often in upper class homes in Russia, that Nicolai and Varvara and Liza, etc., might have been naturally speaking French?? And that D wrote STV with the French to emphasize to us readers that STV was speaking Russian and French? I mean, surely, in real life, if STV were speaking French to Varvara, she would be speaking French back to him? Yes? No? Maybe? I think because STV doesn’t have a firm foundation, he has to overcompensate to show his worth… He does it by speaking the language of the elites: French. See? I speak French. I'm modern and educated. But he's insecure at heart??
Maybe D shows STV often speaking French to emphasize how divided STV’s sense of self was? Like Russia itself?? French and modern and secular? Or Russian and patriarchal and still with religious roots? Maybe when he’s nervous he speaks more French because that’s the side that he more identifies with?? Which side will STV ultimately go with??
Why was French spoken in Russia? - Russia Beyond (rbth.com)
https://www.rbth.com/politics_and_soc...
First---he's cornered. "STV was dawdling around the table and going into all the corners of the room, not conscious of his movements" (424).
So... the corners are where the demons might lurk...and STV isn't very conscious of what he's doing. Might demons enter one more easily when one isn't conscious of what one is doing?
But you got me thinking about STV this morning.
Stepan T V (intersperses his conversation with French)/ and Nicolai V Stavrogin
These two characters seem to me to be on opposite sides of a spectrum of autonomy or self-acceptance.
NVS has a very noble name through his father and comes from a long line of nobility. He knows who is---culturally, as a member of society, and as an individual. He’s not looking for any outside affirmation of his worth or value. I think that’s one of the reasons the others are so drawn to him. Yes, most of the money he spends probably comes from his mother---although he may have come into a small inheritance from his father on coming of age… but she has always readily supplied him… he may not even have had to ask. [“Varvara Petrovna sent him money without stint” (41).]
STV may not even know much about his family origins. His origins seem pretty vague. STV, in any case, didn’t share them with his close confident The Narrator… nothing to be proud about. {*} “Though his origins, it seems, were not high, it so happened that he had been brought up in an aristocratic house in Moscow, and, therefore, decently {! What does THAT say?}; he spoke French like a Parisian” (16).
STV dependent on an outside source for his standard of living. Like NSV, Varvara P provided the money---but STV was always aware of the fact that he was dependent.
STV is never secure in his own self--- it seems to me. “STV constantly played a certain special and, so to speak, civil role among us, and loved this role” (7). He never seems able to simply be himself… He’s always concerned and aware of how he’s presenting himself to others. How do THEY perceive him? He was constantly rehearsing his lines and witticisms, his gestures were rehearsed, the changes of clothing to present the “right” impression to others. “But our STV in truth was only an imitator…” (13).
His self-narrative guides his actions. “He was, for example, greatly enamored of his position as a “persecuted” man…(7). That’s why in “Stepan Trofimovich Perquisitioned,” he had “an unquestionably triumphant air” (424). The outside world is validating his self-narrative.
“Perquisitioned.” How marvelously apt! Your run-of-the-mill Russian would have been whatever the run-of-the-mill Russian word for “searched” is. But STV gets perquisitioned. The French.
It was your observation of how STV in Chapter 9 is speaking so very much French that got me thinking about him. Is it possible, that since French was spoken so often in upper class homes in Russia, that Nicolai and Varvara and Liza, etc., might have been naturally speaking French?? And that D wrote STV with the French to emphasize to us readers that STV was speaking Russian and French? I mean, surely, in real life, if STV were speaking French to Varvara, she would be speaking French back to him? Yes? No? Maybe? I think because STV doesn’t have a firm foundation, he has to overcompensate to show his worth… He does it by speaking the language of the elites: French. See? I speak French. I'm modern and educated. But he's insecure at heart??
Maybe D shows STV often speaking French to emphasize how divided STV’s sense of self was? Like Russia itself?? French and modern and secular? Or Russian and patriarchal and still with religious roots? Maybe when he’s nervous he speaks more French because that’s the side that he more identifies with?? Which side will STV ultimately go with??
Why was French spoken in Russia? - Russia Beyond (rbth.com)
https://www.rbth.com/politics_and_soc...
Emil wrote: "Stepan is smart enough to notice this behavior and to make fun of it:“Ma foi, chère …” why? In the first place probably because I’m not a Pascal after all, et puis … secondly, we Russians never can say anything in our own language.… We never have said anything hitherto, at any rate.…”
(Book l, Chapter 2 - discussion with Varvara)."
!!!
Not that he is right, but that's how he feels. And that's a good description of the views of his own types.
Lily wrote: "Bigollo wrote: "that tragedy in the beginning of 20th century..."Bigollo -- Meaning? Reference to?"
Emil wrote, "I suppose he's referring to the Bolshevik Revolution."
Yes. And a little bit earlier than that, and then after that, for almost three generations, all sorts of self-destructions, including self-genocide. Demons galore, in a word.
Bigollo wrote: "Not that he is right, but that's how he feels. And that's a good description of the views of his own types"Isn't it just sarcasm directed towards those pseudo-liberals believing that 'everything foreign/french is good and everything russian/traditional is bad?
Emil wrote: "Isn't it just sarcasm directed towards those pseudo-liberals believing that 'everything foreign/french is good and everything russian/traditional is bad?"That's how I read it. Stepan sounded so pretentious to me every time he lapsed into French as if words failed him in his own language and he had to express himself in French. I saw it as his attempt to sound sophisticated and cultured.
I have to reread those pages, but you are probably right, and it IS sarcasm, meaning he realizes now the superficiality and even silliness of those views at his declining years, probably with bitter regret, being himself in that mode of though in the past..
Hmm.. Just reread those lines.. It's hard to tell if STV was straightforward or sarcastic.. It looks very much how Tamara read it, that is STV, being rusty in his views, WAS straightforward. Varvara, for one, took him straightforwardly at that point, and disagreed with him. He did not clarify himself back, but she wouldn't let him.Yet, taking into account how pretentiously sophisticated his talk is often with Varvara, there might be some semi-buried sarcasm.. Because right before that moment Varvara was trying to make a point that there are other people who are smarter than them. Who are those people? Depending on how S understood V, there is a chance he was being sarcastic. It's undecipherable at this point for me, and I started to doubt the sarcasm. I guess we have to read on in hope ST gives us more clues about his personality.. which may be changing very rapidly by the end of the book..
I wonder if we should regard Yuliya Mikhaylovna's entourage of young people as a substitute for the children she never had.
Roger wrote: "I wonder if we should regard Yuliya Mikhaylovna's entourage of young people as a substitute for the children she never had."
Interesting question. And it's too late for her to have children of her own at this point.
Interesting question. And it's too late for her to have children of her own at this point.
Chapter 9: Stepan Trofimovich Perquisitioned
So at the bottom of page 427, I thought perhaps Stepan, in crisis, had re-identified with his religious roots. “icon lamp…in the corner…” “It was I who ordered it today, just after they left.” …
But I turn the page, and I learn it’s another action Stepan is making simply for show. So he’s using a religious icon to put on a good show. “it makes an impression”
And then more artificiality. “French words… (then) under some pretext.” Just how much of Stepan’s life is pretext?
--- Petersburg, mentioned. Asks if there was a telegram from Petersburg. It all dates to Petersburg. And he thinks he will be taken to Petersburg.
--- The man with the demons was “not in his right mind.”
Narrator to Stepan: “You’re out of your mind…” (429).
--- Lost. Demons make one lost.
“I am lost!” (431). “…if I’m lost, I’m lost!” “it is here that I’m lost” (432). “Oh, my life is lost!” (433).
“We were standing on the threshold” (434).
So at the bottom of page 427, I thought perhaps Stepan, in crisis, had re-identified with his religious roots. “icon lamp…in the corner…” “It was I who ordered it today, just after they left.” …
But I turn the page, and I learn it’s another action Stepan is making simply for show. So he’s using a religious icon to put on a good show. “it makes an impression”
And then more artificiality. “French words… (then) under some pretext.” Just how much of Stepan’s life is pretext?
--- Petersburg, mentioned. Asks if there was a telegram from Petersburg. It all dates to Petersburg. And he thinks he will be taken to Petersburg.
--- The man with the demons was “not in his right mind.”
Narrator to Stepan: “You’re out of your mind…” (429).
--- Lost. Demons make one lost.
“I am lost!” (431). “…if I’m lost, I’m lost!” “it is here that I’m lost” (432). “Oh, my life is lost!” (433).
“We were standing on the threshold” (434).
I'm reading the P&V translation. Near the close of my chapter 9, Stepan T says, "I have never believed in this, but... so be it, so be it!"
Does anyone's translation have different wording for "so be it"?
Does anyone's translation have different wording for "so be it"?
Adelle wrote: “Does anyone's translation have different wording for "so..."Nope. Maguire and Garnett translated it the same.
I couldn’t help but notice the parallel construction in the endings of Parts 1 and 2. Part 1 ends with a gathering at Varvara Petrovna’s house, at which Nikolai’s marital status is questioned. Pyotr vociferously denies that Nikolai is married. The gathering comes to an abrupt end when Lizaveta starts to leave the room but faints and falls to the floor.
Part 2 ends with a gathering at Julia Mikhaylovna’s house, at which Nikolai’s martial status is again questioned. This time Nikolai acknowledges his marriage. On this news the gathering comes to an abrupt end when Nikolai walks out and Lizaveta jumps up from the sofa making an obvious move to run after him, but catches hold of herself, and leaves the room.
That Dostoevsky ends both Parts 1 and 2 by implicating Nikolai and Lizaveta in some kind of relationship has got to be significant.
Adelle wrote: "I'm reading the P&V translation. Near the close of my chapter 9, Stepan T says, "I have never believed in this, but... so be it, so be it!"Does anyone's translation have different wording for "so be it"?
The original for "so be it" is a short Russian word "пусть".
A very commonly used word. (Basically, it's the verb 'let' in its imperative form).
"so be it" sounds as a very accurate translation to me. Maybe, English being my second language, I don't see some clumsiness in it? Is it not a common phrase, or is it somewhat ambiguous?
I'm trying to think how I would hear that line if somebody were speaking English... Maybe "that's alright", or even "oh, well". ... Sound natural?
Bigollo wrote: "Adelle wrote: "I'm reading the P&V translation. Near the close of my chapter 9, Stepan T says, "I have never believed in this, but... so be it, so be it!"Does anyone's translation have different w..."
Maybe we'd just say, "OK."
Roger wrote: "I wonder if we should regard Yuliya Mikhaylovna's entourage of young people as a substitute for the children she never had."... or maybe as a substitute for the ambitious husband she never had. Maybe for both?
Thanks, all, for responding.
OK. Here’s what I was considering:
“…he [STV} stretched out his arm towards the icon lamp in the corner,…cher…I have never believed in this, but… so be it, so be it!” He crossed himself. Allons!” (434).
Chirst on the cross, his arms stretched out. Among his final words, “It is finished.” And as STV said "Allons" (will) and Christ in the garden just prior to his arrest had prayed to avoid crucifixion, had said, "not my will, but God's will" I thought maybe there was something there.
I was wondering whether D was trying to invoke the thought that STV was something of a Christ-like figure/or a character about to be sacrificed. So I wondered how other translations read.
OK. Here’s what I was considering:
“…he [STV} stretched out his arm towards the icon lamp in the corner,…cher…I have never believed in this, but… so be it, so be it!” He crossed himself. Allons!” (434).
Chirst on the cross, his arms stretched out. Among his final words, “It is finished.” And as STV said "Allons" (will) and Christ in the garden just prior to his arrest had prayed to avoid crucifixion, had said, "not my will, but God's will" I thought maybe there was something there.
I was wondering whether D was trying to invoke the thought that STV was something of a Christ-like figure/or a character about to be sacrificed. So I wondered how other translations read.
Roger wrote: "..Maybe we'd just say, "OK.""OK works too. The sentiment is captured. But note, he is saying that word twice.. as if still debating with himself, is it really OK?
"...But... Ok, Ok!"
I still like 'so be it'.. taking into account grammatical differences of the two languages, it's basically, word for word..
Gary wrote: "I couldn’t help but notice the parallel construction in the endings of Parts 1 and 2....
That Dostoevsky ends both Parts 1 and 2 by implicating Nikolai and Lizaveta in some kind of relationship has got to be significant."
Seems like it. It's good the book has three parts. Hopefully, we'll be gratified for our patience by the end of the book... D likes to charge bombs, doesn't he?
Roger wrote: "I wonder if we should regard Yuliya Mikhaylovna's entourage of young people as a substitute for the children she never had."I definitely think there is something vicarious about her dealings with the younger generation and agree that they can be read as a substitute for something missing in her life. I’m not sure we should reduce her to mother/wife, though. She seems more ambitious than that. Like she wants to capitalize on Varvara’s scandals to replace her as the primary force of the town.
Not that reading them as a substitute for her lack of children or her buffoonish husband is wrong, I just read her as a little desperate for approval. Maybe it’s just fulfillment in general that she is missing. Purpose. All of the above?
Bigollo wrote: "Roger wrote: "..Maybe we'd just say, "OK.""OK works too. The sentiment is captured. But note, he is saying that word twice.. as if still debating with himself, is it really OK?
In my Portuguese version, the translatator used an expresssion that is very close to "be it" but it contains a strong sense that someone is accepting something because there is no alternative or it would need too much effort to change it. Something like "we can live with it" or "it is just acceptable".
Aiden wrote: "I’m not sure we should reduce her to mother/wife, though...I agree since not all women feel the need to assume the role of mother/wife.
I see her motivations for engaging with the younger generation as purely political. She is indignant when her husband criticizes “her behaviour with the young people and local society generally, and lack of comprehension of her subtle and far-sighted political aims …"
She humiliates and ridicules her husband, dismisses his anger with peals of laughter. We are told:
But at this point Yulia Mihailovna suddenly broke her silence and sternly announced that she had long been aware of these criminal designs, and that it was all foolishness, and that he had taken it too seriously, and that as for these mischievous fellows, she knew not only those four but all of them (it was a lie); but that she had not the faintest intention of going out of her mind on account of it, but, on the contrary, had all the more confidence in her intelligence and hoped to bring it all to a harmonious conclusion: to encourage the young people, to bring them to reason, to show them suddenly and unexpectedly that their designs were known, and then to point out to them new aims for rational and more noble activity.”
I don’t see a maternal bone in her body. Instead I see raw political ambition, someone who wants to present herself as being in touch with young people and their ideas. She thinks she can emerge as a politically influential leader who can guide the young and channel their energy toward more "rational" and "noble" activity. She is motivated by a desire to improve her political currency.
Whether she succeeds or not remains to be seen.
Tamara wrote: Whether she succeeds or not remains to be seen.."I see her as a victim of her megalomania - I doubt that she will fulfill her ambitions.
Your comment got me thinking that "demons" may have little to do with the traditional understanding of the word as devils, i.e. external forces that seduce us to commit evil. Instead Dostoevsky may be showing us people who are so obsessed with achieving a goal--whether it be political ambition, increasing social status, money, or whatever--that the goal "possesses" them and they pursue it regardless of the cost. In other words, the demons are within.
Tamara wrote: "...In other words, the demons are within.."As for demons, I can't read this book considering them only as a metaphor. As a metaphor for quirks within our brain that we must have inherited from millions of years of evolution. Whether it was what D had in mind is another question. That is how I comprehend/interpret what came out of his observant mind.
As for Yulia M-na, the naivete of her ambitions are in gross contrast with the level of power she is endowed by circumstance to exercise. This contradiction then becomes a demonic (again, metaphorically speaking) force that affect life of many other people.
And again, I can't help but think of this " small" contradiction as one of the legion of other doomful contradictions that tormented Russia in those days.
P.S. That contradiction with Yulia can be only rare in a "normal" society. In Russia, many kinds of contradictions like that were gaining slowly but surely an explosive critical mass, in my humble view of history that is. For people with sagacity as that of D's it must have been a horrible view. Again, D may have explained the causes of those contradictions very specifically, say as a noxious influence of the West.
Monica wrote: "In my Portuguese version, the translatator used an expresssion that is very close to "be it" but it contains a strong sense that someone is accepting something because there is no alternative or it would need too much effort to change it. Something like "we can live with it" or "it is just acceptable".."Very close to the Russian version. One can almost hear a sigh behind Stepan's words.
Tamara wrote: "She thinks she can emerge as a politically influential leader who can guide the young and channel their energy toward more "rational" and "noble" activity."Thank you for clarifying a thought I had but didn’t express well. That’s basically what I meant by replacing Varvara. They seem to be two of a kind.
Both want to understand just enough of the “fashionable” ideas of the younger generation to give them credibility, whether they believe in them or not. Both patronize ideologues as their sort of pet intellectuals; Stepan for Varvara until recently and Yulia seems desperate enough for a champion that she’ll do whatever Pyotr urges.
Essentially both want to be seen as leaders when they’re really blind followers of fashion.
