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Dostoyevsky, Demons
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Week 6: Part II, chapters 6 and 7
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Roger
(last edited Feb 03, 2021 08:03AM)
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Feb 03, 2021 07:46AM
Chapter 6, "Pyotr Stepanovoch All A-bustle": Yuliya Mikhaylovna has the fantastical idea that she is revered by the young folk around her and that she will uncover and heal a revolutionary conspiracy. She asks her favorite, Pyotr Stepanovich, to go cheer up her husband, whom she has been manipulating. Andrey Antonovich is found fretting about manifestos left at the Shpigulin factory--the workers are angry because they have been cheated by the manager. Pyotr shows his customary breezy insolence, then sooths Andrey by praising a manuscript novel he had given him to read (and he had supposedly lost). Pyotr advises him to take a hard line with the factory workers. Then with great and obsequious flattery, under cover of begging lenience for Shatov, he denounces him and Kirillov as the authors of the manifestos. He hints that he is an agent for the secret police. He asks for 6 days to uncover a whole circle of revolutionaries, which Andrey grants. When Pyotr leaves, Andrey's assistant BLUM comes in and proposes a search of Stepan Trofimovich's lodgings, where he is convinced the source of the manifestos will be found. Andrey resists, but finally gives in. Meanwhile, Pyotr goes to visit Karmazinov to ask for Yuliya what he will be reading at the gala. He won't tell, but he is retiring abroad, anticipates a collapse in Russia, and asks Pyotr when his plots will be carried out. Pyotr says it will begin between May and October. Then Pyotr goes to visit Kirillov. We learn that Kirillov is a member of a secret society and has agreed to kill himself when directed, writing a suicide note as dictated. Pyotr invites him to a meeting of the society that evening at Virginsky's. Then Pyotr visits Shatov and invites him to the meeting to arrange how he will turn over his hidden printing press and quit the society. Meanwhile, Mavriky Nikolayevich visits Nikolay Vsevolodovich to tell him that he should marry his fiancee, Lizaveta Nikolayevna, because she's madly in love with him. Nikolay says he can't because he's already married. The astonished Mavriky leaves just as Pyotr shows up to take Nikolay to the meeting. On the way Pyotr talks about how he organized his revolutionary cell, setting people to spy on each other. "The central committee is me and you." Nikolay suggests ensuring loyalty by getting four members of a circle to bump off a fifth. Pyotr wants Nikolay to speak as "a founding member from abroad."
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Chapter 7, "Among Our Own": About 25 people, "the flower of the brightest red liberalism," are meeting at Virginsky's. They take Pyotr Stepanovich to be an emissary from a shadowy international organization that has set up revolutionary "circles of 5" all over Russia. "All those assembled suspected one another." The local circle consists of Liputin, Virginsky, Lyamshin, SHIGALYOV, and TOLKACHENKO. Shatov, Kirillov, Pyotr, and Nikolay Vsevolodovich are also there. After a lot of silly bickering and arguing, they decide to start a meeting. Shigalyov asks to present his scheme, the only possible one for a reorganized society. It requires enslaving 9/10 of humanity to the other 1/10. Reading it will take 10 days. Pyotr breaks in. Are they ready for action? He has communications. An informer may be present. Would they keep quiet if an assassination were planned? All say yes except Nikolay, Kirillov, and Shatov, who leave.
Things have certainly turned darker. The Shpigulin workers are restless. Pyotr is double-dealing with the governor. Kirillov will kill himself for the Cause, apparently because why not? Karmazinov anticipates societal collapse. Nikolay Vsevolodovich recommends bumping off a member of the circle of 5. Everyone is worried about spies and informers. Pyotr Stepanovich wants an OK for an assassination. But there's also the burlesque that starts the meeting at Virginsky's, and the doomed romance between Nikolay and Lizaveta Nikolayevna. There's a lot going on. I am awed by Dostoyevsky's powers of imagination.
Opening question: Three of the circle of 5 were also in Stepan Trofimovich's circle of friends that we learned about in Book I, Chapter 1, part 8, but two were not. Stepan is apparently not at the meeting, though Blum suspects him of involvement. What is Stepan's involvement in the revolution?
I am thinking Stepan Trofimovich will be used as a scapegoat by his son Pyotr Stepanovich.
Mike wrote: "I am thinking Stepan Trofimovich will be used as a scapegoat by his son Pyotr Stepanovich."
I'm a-thinking you may be right!
I'm a-thinking you may be right!
The opening paragraph reminded me a bit of today. There’s some disorder as the government changes administrations. There’s a pandemic. ‘fires had raged all summer” in towns/cities. Arson. “Robbery had increased twice over the previous scale.” Some thought that some people were deserving of the courts (343).
There’s a quick reminder that people don’t simply enter as characters… but that people have been shaped by their pasts---and we know so little of their pasts. Yulia, possibly “from the long, sad failures of her early youth” moved too strongly, too eccentrically. She dreams of herself as “almost anointed.” ??? Lembke holds the office, but she’s trying to run the show.
Back in “Night,” PSV had told Nikolai V, “just give me a tiny, tiny bit of time” to work on the Shpigulin factory angle (227). So… it seems PSV has been busy there. What, I wonder, does PSV hope to accomplish in the next six days?
There’s a quick reminder that people don’t simply enter as characters… but that people have been shaped by their pasts---and we know so little of their pasts. Yulia, possibly “from the long, sad failures of her early youth” moved too strongly, too eccentrically. She dreams of herself as “almost anointed.” ??? Lembke holds the office, but she’s trying to run the show.
Back in “Night,” PSV had told Nikolai V, “just give me a tiny, tiny bit of time” to work on the Shpigulin factory angle (227). So… it seems PSV has been busy there. What, I wonder, does PSV hope to accomplish in the next six days?
Mike wrote: "I am thinking Stepan Trofimovich will be used as a scapegoat by his son Pyotr Stepanovich."Based on their relationship, and Pyotr’s obvious animosity toward his father, that’s not a bad hypothesis. I think by this point we’ve gotten the full sense of Pyotr as a schemer with his stage-management of personalities and suspicions. He’s also shown himself slippery enough to have a exit strategy where he isn’t blamed.
Adelle wrote: "What, I wonder, does PSV hope to accomplish in the next six days?"Indeed, I think that is what we’re all wondering. FMD does a great job of drawing out suspense in this novel, showing PSV tugging at various strings and building up tension, but never revealing more than little pieces of the whole plan.
It seems to me that Dostoevsky is making fun of “our people” gathered at Virginsky’s. Is it a party … no it’s a meeting bursting with bickering, angry outbursts and insults, sullenness, resentments, suspicions, even a manifesto, and overall general chaos. This group couldn’t organize a ham sandwich. I’d laugh if it weren’t for the dark thread personified by Pyotr.
Aiden wrote: " Pyotr as a schemer with his stage-management of personalities and suspicions...."
SUCH a schemer! And, yes, D leaves me wondering and changing my opinion often. Earlier in the novel, I had thought that perhaps Pyotr was to represent something of a dark-side "Peter/the Rock" to Stavrogin. But then there were scenes in which Pyotr seemed to try to undercut Stavrogin. But then we hear Pyotr say to Stavrogin, like... it was all your idea. Odds are things will shift again before the end. Yes!! What great suspense.
Or perhaps Pyotr is to remind us that secular changes/ societal changes/ new culture came to Russia under Peter the Great. Petersburg seems to be where Stavrogin went bad. Lembke..."long life in Petersburg had left indelible traces on his soul. He was rather well informed of the official and even the secret history of the "new generation" (362).
SUCH a schemer! And, yes, D leaves me wondering and changing my opinion often. Earlier in the novel, I had thought that perhaps Pyotr was to represent something of a dark-side "Peter/the Rock" to Stavrogin. But then there were scenes in which Pyotr seemed to try to undercut Stavrogin. But then we hear Pyotr say to Stavrogin, like... it was all your idea. Odds are things will shift again before the end. Yes!! What great suspense.
Or perhaps Pyotr is to remind us that secular changes/ societal changes/ new culture came to Russia under Peter the Great. Petersburg seems to be where Stavrogin went bad. Lembke..."long life in Petersburg had left indelible traces on his soul. He was rather well informed of the official and even the secret history of the "new generation" (362).
The huge meeting at Virginsky's is a ridiculous way to run a revolution. Twenty-five people there, including all kinds of hangers-on, and a an army officer who showed up by mistake, thinking it was really a name-day party. And they're going to discuss assassinations there, despite the fact that an informer "may" be present! I suppose this absurdity is all part of Pyotr Stepanovich's nefarious plot.
Roger wrote: "The huge meeting at Virginsky's is a ridiculous way to run a revolution ... I suppose this absurdity is all part of Pyotr Stepanovich's nefarious plot."I think it can be read as Pyotr sowing confusion, but I also think that it conveyed FMD’s portrait of the “revolutionary groups” of this period. Much like the situation in the scandal that inspired the novel, these groups had bold ideas but little real organization, no true understanding of the theories they espoused and tended to fall to paranoia and infighting.
I read the meeting at Virginsky as a sort of revolutionary-wannabe club meeting. The fact that uninvited people and suspect people were there showed their lack of seriousness about actual revolution. Being revolutionary was a sort of fad to some people, I think. A way of saying you were forward-thinking.
Roger wrote: "The huge meeting at Virginsky's is a ridiculous way to run a revolution. Twenty-five people there, including all kinds of hangers-on, and a an army officer who showed up by mistake, thinking it was..."It reminds a bit of the scene from Monty Python's Life of Brian where people from the Judean People's Front are insulting the People's Front of Judea (as well as the Judean Popular People's Front.). One of them includes a "crack suicide squad" that Kirillov would be proud of.
We can't take "Shigalyovism" seriously, can we? Or someone whose greatest contribution to the cause is to commit suicide?
Kirillov killing himself isn’t his contribution to the cause of revolution. It seems to just be what his personal philosophy is telling him to do. He’s actually testy about it being used for secondary purposes, though he agreed to it. I think Kirillov is very serious, but possibly more serious about philosophy and other cares than anything revolutionary.
Aiden wrote: "Kirillov killing himself isn’t his contribution to the cause of revolution. ."You may be right, but Kirillov says " A thought occurred in the Society that i could be be useful if I killed myself, and that one day when you got into some kind of mischief and they were looking for culprits, I could suddenly shoot myself and leave a letter that I had done it all..."
That seems to be his contribution, if he has one to make. Whether it's for the cause of the revolution, I don't know, though I presume the Society has something to do with the revolution.
The puzzle that is Stavrogin gets another twist at the end of II:6. He says,”All this officialdom and sentimentality — it’s a good glue, but there’s one thing better still: get four members of a circle to bump off a fifth on the pretense of his being an informer, and with this shed blood you’ll immediately tie them together in a single knot. They’ll become your slaves, they won’t dare rebel or call you to accounts. Ha, ha, ha!”First there’s the cold-blooded idea, second there’s the laugh. I’m not at all sure what to make of this. Is Stavrogin egging Pyotr on, giving him ideas, is he mocking him, or is Stavrogin actually serious despite the uncomfortable laugh? Or does his laugh at the end of the proposal negate the whole thing? At the least it seems to foreshadow what’s to come.
Thomas wrote: "We can't take "Shigalyovism" seriously, can we?."History tells us we should indeed take Shigalyovism seriously. Shigalyov personifies the demagogue who knows no bounds in pursuit of an absolutist ideology. In the 20th century alone, to name only the most notorious, we have Hilter, Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, each of whom was personally responsible for the deaths of millions for the cause of an idea — Shigalyovists all. The character Shigalyov is not an outrageously unrealistic abstraction, but real amongst us.
Gary wrote: "Hilter, Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, each of whom was personally responsible for the deaths of millions for the cause of an idea — Shigalyovists all."What I'm scratching for here is the "cause of an idea." From what I can gather, Shigalyov's idea is complete equality and enslaving 9/10th of the population.
Cicero’s tongue is cut off, Copernicus’s eyes are put out, Shakespeare is stoned–this is Shigalyovism! Ha, ha, ha, so you find it strange? I’m for Shigalyovism!
Ha ha ha... ?? It's presented as a joke, and it comes off as a joke. I find this disturbing precisely because we should take the proposal to "stifle every genious in infancy" seriously. And yet the scene in which the "idea" is presented is a farce.
Thomas wrote: "You may be right, but Kirillov says " A thought occurred in the Society that i could be be useful if I ..."I suppose it’s true that his allowing them to co-opt his suicide to make a statement is a sort of contribution, if a half-hearted one. In that context it would serve the revolution by bringing attention to it. Though using an already-planned suicide to make a political statement seems nihilistic and I don’t see Kirillov as such.
Gary wrote: "First there’s the cold-blooded idea..."Stavrogin’s idea reminded me of two things; one ancient and one modern. The first is the Roman army’s practice of “decimation”; where a general randomly picks one out of every ten soldiers and forces the other nine to beat him to death as punishment for group failure. The purpose being partly to unite them in shame at the act.
The modern analogue is American street gangs, with their “blood in, blood out” philosophy and initiations involving random killing to prove they’re all in.
I’m not sure what Stavrogin’s real purpose in suggesting it was, but the “blood bond” in an enduring idea.
I interpreted his speech as 'mocking', as Gary put it. As if Stavrogin read Verkhovensky's mind, spat it out, and then laughed at it in the end. Or, at least, if not exactly what was in V's mind, but something very close, on par with that.I may be wrong, but what suggested that for me is the inner thought reaction of Verhovensky himself to that Stavrogin's speech.
"You, though... you're going to pay for those words, my friend, and even this very night. You allow yourself too much."
At least something offended him. Mockery could.
It looks like V understood S much better than we are trying to do. And I think.. maybe.. FD's contemporaries understood this passage with no problem as well. The key might be in the lyrics of that song that Verhovensky was trying to quote. I don't know that song. Anybody?
Pyotr Stepanovich said he wanted Nikolay Vesevolodovich to speak at the meeting, and indeed he said he would have a word to say, but Nikolay hardly said anything of consequence. That's odd.
Gary wrote: "The character Shigalyov is not an outrageously unrealistic abstraction, but real amongst us..."A few months ago I've heard a recording of a clandestine right-wing meeting in a small German town. The resemblance is uncanny: the same characters and the same discussions. I am quite sure Dostoyevsky knew exactly what he was writing about, he probably met a lot of Shigalovs in his Siberian exile.
Emil wrote: "he probably met a lot of Shigalovs in his Siberian exile."I think FMD’s experience as a member Petrashevsky Circle probably had a large influence on all of his later works, but particularly this one. He was, like Stepan Trofimovich, a “man of the 40s.” They talked quixotic and nearly got themselves killed for things like just translating the work of a socialist utopian into Russian in hopes of stirring the people.
I expect it was his changed view when he returned from six years of exile and then looked at the violent, nihilistic revolutionaries of the ‘60s with disgust that colored virtually all of the characters in this novel. It seems like you might be able to find FMD’s entire spectrum of changing viewpoints over the ‘50s in the various revolutionary characters in Demons. From Stepan and Kirillov to Pyotr and Shatov.
Aiden wrote: "Emil wrote: "he probably met a lot of Shigalovs in his Siberian exile."I think FMD’s experience as a member Petrashevsky Circle probably had a large influence on all of his later works, but parti..."
I'm reading your comment and I can't help but ask myself: how autobiographical is this novel? Is "Demons" FMD way to deal with the demons of his past?
Emil wrote: "how autobiographical is this novel?”We have to be careful of the so-called “intentional fallacy” (believing a character’s views reflect the author’s views). If we look at intentions, I’m pretty sure he wrote the novel to avoid being destitute (FMD had constant money problems).
However, I do think Dostoevsky had something both general and personal to say with this novel including about his own past. What exactly he’s saying is open to interpretation, but he definitely added to the verisimilitude writing about what he had experience with.
NSV has said he's not actually a rich man. And then here in PSV Bustles about, PSV says to NSV "Only remember, secrets cost money." And NSV growled under his breath, "I even know how much" (384).
Is NSV being blackmailed? Or has he been financing much of the operation?
Is NSV being blackmailed? Or has he been financing much of the operation?
Adelle wrote: "NVS has said he's not actually a rich man."I read that to mean that NVS doesn’t have free reign of his family wealth, but even while revenues would have dropped after emancipation, VPS is still a landowner in a time when that was relatively rare. So while he isn’t rich, he is an heir, as it were. He would have had access to money as needed. The wealth just isn’t his without asking VPS for it while she’s alive.
As to the other question, I’d say both are possibilities justified by the text you quoted. We'll have to wait to find out.
Aiden wrote: ". So while he isn’t rich, he is an heir.."
Mmm. You make a good point: He will eventually inherit---and Varvara P seems to have been increasing her net worth.
It's just that NSV keeps dropping tantalizing hints. "Incidentally...do you know that I'm not rich at all..." (256).
But that's probably judged by a relative standard. He DOES have the money---just barely--- to "secure Marya T's future."
OK... I'll wait.
Mmm. You make a good point: He will eventually inherit---and Varvara P seems to have been increasing her net worth.
It's just that NSV keeps dropping tantalizing hints. "Incidentally...do you know that I'm not rich at all..." (256).
But that's probably judged by a relative standard. He DOES have the money---just barely--- to "secure Marya T's future."
OK... I'll wait.
I would agree that NVS’s financial situation and its relation to Pyotr is open to interpretation. I just wanted to make the point that his saying he is not rich isn’t the same as saying he doesn’t have access to money.
Aiden wrote: "I would agree that NVS’s financial situation and its relation to Pyotr is open to interpretation. I just wanted to make the point that his saying he is not rich isn’t the same as saying he doesn’t ..."
I agree with you absolutely! Absolutely.
I could have written more clearly. It's one of the little details that currently has me snagged... so I mull on it overmuch.
I agree with you absolutely! Absolutely.
I could have written more clearly. It's one of the little details that currently has me snagged... so I mull on it overmuch.
Two things. So K, told NVS somewhere---I can't find it this evening--- that NSV had to bear his burden.
Back in chapter 6, Karmazinov, I think, is speaking: "the whole essence of the Russian revolutionary idea consists in a denial of honor... For the Russian, honor is simply a superfluous burden. And it has always been a burden, throughout his history. He can be all the sooner carried away by an open 'right to dishonor'... the older generation ... still stand for honor, but only from habit" (371).
Maybe this...some sort of dishonor...is Stavrogin's "burden."
Remember how after the meeting, Stavrogin had said to PSV, that PSV could bind the four by having them kill the fifth? Because they would have an immense shared burden of dishonor.
Maybe when they were young --- remember, NVS, Liza, Shatov were fellow students...and then Liza was pulled out of the classes, NSV was sent away rather suddenly to Petersburg.
Maybe something dishonorable happened amongst them and that is why there are still such bonds between them???
NSV might imagine that if PSV's group of five were to commit something even more dishonorable, such as murder, it would glue them together tightly. Shared guilt.
And as revolution does away with dishonor, it would pull those who have dishonored to itself...as the revolution offers them, if not absolution, at least it promises [empty promises] no guilt.
Back in chapter 6, Karmazinov, I think, is speaking: "the whole essence of the Russian revolutionary idea consists in a denial of honor... For the Russian, honor is simply a superfluous burden. And it has always been a burden, throughout his history. He can be all the sooner carried away by an open 'right to dishonor'... the older generation ... still stand for honor, but only from habit" (371).
Maybe this...some sort of dishonor...is Stavrogin's "burden."
Remember how after the meeting, Stavrogin had said to PSV, that PSV could bind the four by having them kill the fifth? Because they would have an immense shared burden of dishonor.
Maybe when they were young --- remember, NVS, Liza, Shatov were fellow students...and then Liza was pulled out of the classes, NSV was sent away rather suddenly to Petersburg.
Maybe something dishonorable happened amongst them and that is why there are still such bonds between them???
NSV might imagine that if PSV's group of five were to commit something even more dishonorable, such as murder, it would glue them together tightly. Shared guilt.
And as revolution does away with dishonor, it would pull those who have dishonored to itself...as the revolution offers them, if not absolution, at least it promises [empty promises] no guilt.
