They Found Him Dead Group Read Chapters 1-7

[Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂]

Hi everyone!

This is going to be our first group read of this title. I hope (in these troubled times) that no one has had trouble getting hold of it.

Critterbee & I decided we are going to try just two threads for the mysteries as well. So there could be open spoilers in the second thread as well - so read at your own risk! :) & please only discuss things that happened up to & including Chapter 7 in this thread. We don't want to spoil a first time read for anyone. Please use spoiler tags when necessary in this first part.

So... what format is everyone using? How many times has everyone read this title?

I think I have probably read this one 7 or 8 times, the last time around six years ago.

This time I am reading an eighty year old hard cover Yes this is my actual book - with a very incomplete dust jacket!.

It has some praise on the front flap, including;

" Her characters are always alive" Punch

[Jackie]

I have read this many times and just checked out an ebook from the library. for some reason, it didn't give me the option to load it onto my kindle, so I have to read it from my browser.

like all her mysteries, I had to get used to the fact that they aren't her romances but once I did, I enjoy them.

[Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂]

I was wondering what an Imperial was?

This style in the first pictures?

https://bespokeunit.com/grooming/bear...

or maybe one of these;

https://www.beard.org.in/beard-styles...

[Nick]

This is my second Heyer mystery - the only other one I've read is Envious Casca which I read with this group.

I'm actually quite interested to see how it goes.

I've loved the Heyer regencies since I was a kid, but I've never been interested in the detective stuff until I joined this group. I think reading her biography has given me much greater interest in everything Heyer.

[Susan]

This is my first ever read of a Heyer detective novel! I do like older style detective novels so I am looking forward to it.

I have obtained a copy from my local library - from the large print section....

[Abigail]

I have an ancient paperback with acid paper, so reading it may be a trial for my aging eyes. I won’t be starting right away because I am blessed with a surfeit of group reads this month.

[Susan in NC]

Same here - loads of books on hold from my library came through a couple days ago, so I’ve got to prioritize those. I’ve read this Heyer mystery once before, I have this paperback , but this time, I am listening to the audiobook. I started last week while knitting, so I can join in the first part now!

I’m enjoying young Timothy, especially as he follows after Hemingway...mysteries are my favorite genre, especially historical and golden age mysteries, and I really appreciate Heyer’s humor!

[Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂]

Timothy reminds me a lot of (spoiler for another GH book) (view spoiler)[Felix from Frederica!) (hide spoiler)]

[Susan in NC]

Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Timothy reminds me a lot of (spoiler for another GH book) [spoilers removed]"

Lol, yes - but Timothy, being a little older, seems less likely to get into trouble, he’s more fascinated by American gangster films and slang and wants to put his two cents into the investigation!

[Barb in Maryland]

I have this one from the library


I first read it back in 1970 and have maybe re-read it once in the past 10 years. It will be interesting to read it again, as I remember zip, zilch, nada about the plot.

[Brian]

Hello! First time read and I got the ebook on my phone. :)

Love the paperback covers though :)

[Nick]

Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Timothy reminds me a lot of (spoiler for another GH book) [spoilers removed]"

Yes, I can see that.

I'm liking Timothy a lot. He's very funny. Reminds me of my little brother.

[Jackie]

I am enjoying the interchange between Rosemary and Betty.

I think either one of them would be annoying in real life, but watching them interact is funny. Betty - unintentionally! - really takes the wind out of Rosemary and her drama llama statements.

[Jackie]

I've read this many times but for some reason it just occured to me the maid's name "Ogle" is pretty funny.

[Susan in NC]

Jackie wrote: "I am enjoying the interchange between Rosemary and Betty.

I think either one of them would be annoying in real life, but watching them interact is funny. Betty - unintentionally! - really takes t..."

Yes! The exchanges between these two are so funny - Rosemary just wants an audience, but Betty’s feet are firmly planted on the ground - if it’s not about her bratty children, husband or household, forget it...

[Susan in NC]

Nick wrote: "Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Timothy reminds me a lot of (spoiler for another GH book) [spoilers removed]"

Yes, I can see that.

I'm liking Timothy a lot. He's very funny. Reminds me of my littl..."

Yes, Timothy, for all his youth, has no interest in Rosemary or any of the older folk and their drama, and ruthlessly (and honestly) calls it as he sees it.

[Alathea]

Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "I was wondering what an Imperial was?

I thought an Imperial was a narrow pointed beard, definitely not the big bushy things shown in either of those sites - number 7 in this picture.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbe#/...

I had to look it up in French to find a picture of what I had in mind, which may mean that a. I've only encountered the term in French novels up till now, and b. it means something different in English.

In French it seems that it definitely means the kind of beard worn by the Emperor Napoleon III:

https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/barbe_...
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napol%C...

I haven't started the book yet, so I have no idea whether there are any clues in Heyer's writing as to which she had in mind.

- Update: I've just started reading, and see that Silas is described as having a "neat little imperial" on page 1. That sounds far more like a narrow pointed beard than the full beard or the mutton chop whiskers shown in Carol's links.

[Barbara]

I've read this before, but can't remember much about what happens, so it'll be like reading it for the first time. I did have a copy but BookCrossed it so I'm reading the library's e-book version.
I'm afraid that, for me, Timothy is one of Heyer's annoying brats that I'm glad I don't have to live with. Like others I'm enjoying the Betty/Rosemary exchanges.

[Jackie]

I don't dislike or find Timothy annoying at all. unlike the character spoilered in message #8!
but I need to post in the spoilers thread, clearly.

[Critterbee❇]

I have not started this yet, so am staying out of the spoiler thread for now! It will be a re-read, but I do not remember a lot about the book.

[Cheryl]

I'm sure an imperial in English is a "neat, little" beard as shown in your examples. That's what I, an English-speaker, always thought it was, and it would suit Silas better than the more exuberant beards popular during Victorian times. I suspect the illustrators either didn't know what an imperial was, or thought that the more bushy styles looked better for an elderly man who lived in a previous era!

[Barb in Maryland]

Cheryl wrote: "I'm sure an imperial in English is a "neat, little" beard as shown in your examples. That's what I, an English-speaker, always thought it was, and it would suit Silas better than the more exuberant..."

The beard style was probably called the Imperial because it was the style of Tsar Nicholas II, King George V, Kaiser Wilhelm, etc. They all wore these neat, small, tidy, beards with definite mustaches.

[Susan in NC]

Critterbee❇ wrote: "I have not started this yet, so am staying out of the spoiler thread for now! It will be a re-read, but I do not remember a lot about the book."

Me, either, but as always with Heyer, the humor is what makes it a treat for me! Especially in audiobook, such entertaining dialogue- I can just picture the scenes, I wish someone would film her books - mysteries, Regencies, historicals, I don’t care which, I would watch them! Okay, I’ll qualify that, I’d prefer any of her books with humor, not the stiff ones...

[Susan in NC]

Barb in Maryland wrote: "Cheryl wrote: "I'm sure an imperial in English is a "neat, little" beard as shown in your examples. That's what I, an English-speaker, always thought it was, and it would suit Silas better than the..."

From Silas’ description in the opening chapter, that’s what I pictured, rather like the older, handsome, distinguished-looking man on my cover, sans young socialite in a backless dress! unless that’s supposed to be Rosemary, she’s supposed to be a bit of a hot tomato (in the American gangster parlance Timothy favors...)

[QNPoohBear]

Does anyone have a cast list and family tree? There are so many names thrown at the reader right away. I was too tired to follow along and quit the morning after the party. I need to go back, start from the beginning and make a cast list and family tree.

Timothy is just like my older nephew, currently 8 and obsessed with video games and zombies!! Replace gangster movies with zombies and he'll be like Timothy. When my sister first tried to explain the COVID quarantine to him, he asked "It's like the zombie apocalypse?!" Um yes. He was prepared for zombies coming to eat his brains in the way Timothy is prepared for murder based on his media consumption. No wonder his father wanted to get rid of him for the summer.

[Jackie]

I remember needing to write down who was who with more than one Heyer (the Tollgate was one!) and it's always the various cousins from one Grandfather.

I like Timothy but he does seem younger than he really is.

[Julie]

Jackie wrote: "I remember needing to write down who was who with more than one Heyer (the Tollgate was one!) and it's always the various cousins from one Grandfather.

I like Timothy but he does seem younger tha..."

It’s true a number of Heyer books seem to start with a bit of a character-dump in the first chapter, this one particularly so! It took me a while, too, to get everyone sorted.

[Julie]

This is only my second Heyer mystery, the first being The Unfinished Clue. I’m enjoying this one more, I think because now I do have the characters straight they’re so well-delineated, and some are quite likeable.

[QNPoohBear]

This one reads like a play for the first few chapters so I treated as such and made a list of the dramatis personae and a family tree.

Characters
The Kanes
Miss Patricia Allison -companion to Mrs. Emily Kane
Silas Kane- turning 60, business partner in Kane and Mansell
Old Mrs. Emily Kane - 80 years old, infirm, mother of Silas
Jim Kane- nephew of Silas, son of the late James and Norma, half-brother to Timothy
Clement Kane- nephew of Silas, married to Rosemary
Rosemary Kane- greedy woman, lazy, Russian blood, passionate

The Mansells
Old Joe/Joseph - patriarch, business partner of Silas, at odds over a business deal
Mrs. Agatha Mansell - Joe's wife, a bluestocking, talkative, forceful
Clive and Betty Pembell- son-in-law and daughter of Joe and Agatha. Betty is "sensitive" and spoils her children
Paul- Joe's son, sleazy, flashy, divorced

Harte
Timothy, Mr. Harte- age 14, loves gangster films, suspects murder
Sir Adrien-Tim's father, an affable, lazy, simplistic gentleman
Norma- Tim's mother, off exploring , mother of Jim Kane

Others
Ogle- ladies' maid to Mrs. Emily, devoted to her mistress
Pritchard- butler
Oscar Roberts- an Anglo-Australian-American man trying to broker a deal with Kane and Mansell for nets in Australia
Trevor Dermott- Rosemary's lover, a passionate man
Inspector Hannasyde -shrewd detective from Scotland Yard
Sergeant Hemmingway- detective with sarcastic sense of humor

Kane Family Tree
Old Matthew Kane m. ?
|
[---------------------------------------------------------------------------]
1. John + Emily 2. Son 3. Son went to Aus. 4. Son
| | | |
Silas Son Son James d. WWI m. Norma
| | |
Clement Mrs. Maud Leighton Jim

Norma m. Sir Adrien Harte
|
Timothy


Mansell Family Tree
Joe m. Agatha
|
[------------------------------------------------------------]
Betty m. Clive Pemble Paul (divorced)
|
Jennifer age 6, Peter age 3

[QNPoohBear]

I'm up to the end of the section and I have a few theories
(view spoiler)[I think there are two separate deaths. Silas was frightened by someone. The people who benefit most are the Mansells and Jim. I think Paul Mansell frightened Silas to death. He suspected foul play right away. I think that tipped his hand. I don't suspect Jim because there was still Clement and it didn't seem pre-meditated. There's an off chance it was Rosemary or Clement but they were on their way home and he didn't have time to return to kill Silas - supposedly. I think Rosemary is all talk though. She likes to make herself seem important.

Clement's death is another story. I suspect Emily did it. It's suspicious she "went for a walk" while she sent Jim inside to look for her rug which her maid was already bringing down. Either that or Ogle the maid did it for her beloved mistress but I think it was Emily. She's so cold! She loves Jim and is eager for Patricia to marry her favorite and stay in the house with her. She loathes Patricia and thinks Clement is weak.

Other possibilities include the Mansells and the Anglo-American, Robert. One shot in the dark is the Australian woman -Mrs. Leighton- she sent a condolence letter that fast? Roberts is acting as the agent for the Australian firm that wants Kane and Mansell for nets. Sounds a bit too much of a coincidence. (hide spoiler)]

Terrible Timothy is too funny. He's a crazy kid with an overactive imagination but I bet he's the one to crack the case. I don't know-I have never read this before! It's just speculation.

[QNPoohBear]

One more thought on this section I wanted to note. Betty's children are horrible, especially her son. Her program of only allowing them to experience kind, light, beautiful things isn't working, obviously. I was disturbed by the fact that a) someone gave him a Golliwog doll and b)Betty clearly thought it was ugly. I know they were popular toys and kids loved them but there's the implication that the Black doll is ugly. I think they're kind of cute but the current feeling is they're racist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golliwog

I was also bothered by the amount of sexual harassment in this story. It's hidden but it's there. Paul is clearly harassing Patricia "unwanted advances" and Jim is too to a certain extent although he keeps his tone playful.

[Nick]

QNPoohBear wrote: "I was also bothered by the amount of sexual harassment in this story. It's hidden but it's there. Paul is clearly harassing Patricia "unwanted advances" and Jim is too to a certain extent although he keeps his tone playful."

Yes, I found Jim's behaviour toward Patricia very rude and high-handed. I wouldn't like it if a man proposed to me in that way. But I don't see any evidence that Patricia dislikes it? It seems like it's almost a game where they're both playing roles. They both know that they love each other, but she pretends to have doubts and he pretends to steamroll her.

[Jackie]

it never seems like harassment to me coming from Jim, whereas she clearly dislikes Paul.

[Mela]

Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "I was wondering what an Imperial was?
This style in the first pictures?
https://bespokeunit.com/grooming/bear...
or maybe one of these;
https://www.beard.org.in/beard-styles......"

I don't like beads. But in some cases I adore them ;-) And a few of those you have linked are so charming... sigh... ;-)

[Mela]

QNPoohBear wrote: "One more thought on this section I wanted to note. Betty's children are horrible, especially her son. Her program of only allowing them to experience kind, light, beautiful things isn't working, ob..."

Good points. I agree.

[Barbara]

Mela wrote: "I don't like beads. But in some cases I adore them ;-)

I won't let my husband shave his beard off because he's had it so long I'm not sure of what's underneath (or even if I'd recognise him) :-) And I do like it too.

[Mela]

Barbara wrote: "I won't let my husband shave his beard off because he's had it so long I'm not sure of what's underneath (or even if I'd recognise him)"

;-))))))