"The Four Profound Weaves" by R.B. Lemberg (BR)

[Bonnie]

This is a thread for buddy read discussion:
-"The Four Profound Weaves" and possibly
-other works in R.B. Lemberg's world, the Birdverse.

Info on Birdverse (edited to update URL):
http://rblemberg.net/?page_id=2323

[Anna]

Looks good and great timing, I was just updating the BR spreadsheet! :D

[Bonnie]

Hey, i was just writing a message you to tell you about this! Is this the correct format and information and everything?

[Anna]

Maybe add how you want spoilers handled?

[Bonnie]

The instructions say, Ask people to "use spoiler tags, chapter numbers and book names where applicable to keep discussion moving and spoiler free."

[Anna]

Sometimes people might agree to some other style. Buddy reads are informal and any way is good as long as all participants agree, and it's stated in the first post :)

[Bonnie]

Proposal to fellow participants:
There do not seem to be clear chapters with numbers; rather named sections, then chapters name for respective POV character. What if we handle spoilers,
-informally
-add Section #/Name if helpful
-hide info behind spoiler tags if "a reasonable person" (legal term) might consider it a letdown to their reading pleasure, if they knew it ahead of time, e.g. an interesting twist or death that matters to overall plot

[Kaa]

That works for me, Bonnie! I'm hoping to start this evening.

[Nicol]

Just started this a few days ago, in the intro the author recommends reading their short stories in set in the same universe. I read them for free by searching their titles online. Grandmother-Nai-Leylit's cloth of winds has some of the same characters and takes place before this novel starts, so if you can I would read that first. The other two are The Desert Glassmaker and the Jeweler of Berevyar told in letters, and Geometries of Belonging which was my favorite. I really enjoyed, the writing style and story telling, and am excited to finish this book. But one thing for sure, they have a talent for writing short stories!

[Travis]

I will be starting tonight! Thanks for the spoiler guidelines Bonnie!

[Kaa]

Thanks for the links, Nicol! I also found a poem that tells a story that is the background to Grandmother-nai-Leylit, I will show you a single treasure.

I just finished Grandmother-nai-Leylit, and am starting Four Profound Weaves - there are already some familiar names!

[Kaa]

Start of Part 2 (22%): (view spoiler)[I like that the shift between sections of the book also comes with a shift in how the nameless man / nen-sasair is identified. It's just a little detail, but in a book so much about identity it feels meaningful. (hide spoiler)]

[Bonnie]

Switched over to the Grandmother-nai-Leylit story:
http://www.beneath-ceaseless-skies.co...

I don't do this often but think I am going to have to start writing down names. Lots of new names to absorb.

[Bonnie]

Finished "Grandmother-Nai-Leylit's Cloth of Winds." Thanks for pointing out that it comes before the book.

Things I liked:
-During the trip Aviya and Gitit realized how much work Grandmother-nai-Tammah had been doing all along but they hadn't realized it
-The blessing of love can become a cocoon/a trap
-Implications of a gendered language on people's psychology and perception of their own self and others
-"I wish Kimi could talk, but if she could then she'd be in the men's quarters and we wouldn't talk anyways."

Questions:
-Where are their mothers and why gone so long?
-What happened with the storm, and the warriors, and the spear????
-Why did Aviya get so angry with her grandmother when she caught up with them? She thinks Tammah lied, she's jealous of her magic, OK... but still I don't get why she would be that mad.
-What is importance of Tammah saying "I gave my cloth to you" vs. "I gave Leylit's cloth to you" ?
-Deepname magic:
---Whaaaaa ?
---They told Aviya it was time to Take a deepname when she is 15-17 "so you can be marriagable." Like she was refusing to cooperate. But only magic people can get one, so why her fault if she can't?
---When you become an adult you are "stripped" of magic powers anyway in a joyous ceremony, so you don't have them very long?
---How can Aviya tell how many deepnames other people have?

[Nicol]

I think Geometries of Belonging http://www.beneath-ceaseless-skies.co... explains the magic system better and the whole deep names thing; at least it did for me. Sorry on my phone so don’t know if link will work.

I also had the same questions about the warriors and the storm. I thought it needed more explanation - it came out of left field then it was over in a paragraph 🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️

[Kaa]

My attempts at answering some questions, based on what I got from the story:
-the mothers are also merchants, and have traveled very far away
-I think Aviya is feeling betrayed and hurt because her grandmother didn't want to travel with them, and left them alone to struggle
-the cloth is personally significant to Tammah because it is what will allow a person to go through physical gender-affirming transformation
-the Khana women aren't stripped of their powers, only the Iyar women are, which is why the Khana women are required to wear veils when they leave their part of the city

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I'm in part four, having read no other piece in the world.

(view spoiler)[ I thought the beginning was brilliant, with very clear goals towards self actualization. However, as we go on, I'm finding both the quality of the lyrical writing and the storycraft to be suffering, as if it wasn't as polished as the earlier bits (which makes sense). The Collector is quite cartoonish to me and doesn't feel as grounded as so many others; the othering feels...out of place? Like, you know Bird can come and literally give someone other forms. That aspect of it seems meant more to impact the reader than to be true to the world and I really have a problem with exploitative writing. Give me this person's truth. Give me Bird that shapes us in utero, and belief systems about rogue magics that circumvent their will, or something.

And even Uiviya (sp)...what does learning mean? It seemed early on that learning the four profound weaves was huge, but she's seen as nothing in her society. But also also, no one seems to be flying around, so what's the deal here? Is her magic commonplace or potent? Why does she need to get the weave of bones after seeing what her aunt was like?

I'm finding it fairly hard to believe the world, and, like with so many modern poetry-novellas, I'm finding the author got tired of the project long before the words were sanded into a consistent craftsman quality, which is frustrating to me since it started so strong. (hide spoiler)]

[Bonnie]

After reading those two stories I restarted the book and feel much more comfortable knowing more context about this world.

Through Section II: Wanderlust, the Great Burri Desert.

Things I like:
-Magical butterflies and lights floating off people's fingers
-Nen-Saisir = son of Sandbirds as a temporary name
-Uiziya telling Nen-Saisir, basically, "Transitioning to another gender won't make you happy all on its own." Reminded me of someone thinking if they lose 50 pounds, etc. then they will be happy... life more complicated than that, even in this magical desert world where people can choose and change genders.

Things I don't like:
-Uiziya's and Nen-Saisir's voices seem interchangeable to me. If the sections weren't labelled and U. didn't say "Aunt" Benesret, I couldn't tell who's talking.
-Also, I think the POV is switching back and forth too often, it's messing up the pacing of the story.
-So far I don't really like either of our main characters. SO WHINY. If you hated the Collector so much, why live in his city Iyar for years? Move somewhere else. I know the story keeps explaining to me why N.S. waited forty years to change but I am starting to argue back. And Uiziya? Geez, her aunt was two days' travel away, and it took them less than an hour to prepare to make the trip. You couldn't do this years earlier?

Questions:
-What is the deal with white cloth? mentioned several times.
-What is an Orphan Star? buried somewhere?
-Why did N-S even want to be a man? Is the story going to show that even though she thought she wanted it, and told people she wanted it for years and years, that now she has it it's not really what she wanted? He, I should say. He doesn't want to do what the snake-Surin men do, he doesn't dare knock on the Khana men's quarters and ask to join them, he doesn't want to hang out with men, he doesn't want to even speak to one. He did want to sing the Dawnsong in the morning but now he's not doing it anymore.
I am feeling like "the moral" is going to be You Can't Always Get What You Want; or else Don't Wait, Follow Your Dreams While You're Young. Or, is the book not doing a great of explaining to me what it was like, for a secluded Khana woman to yearn to be a man?

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Small point of order. A trans person IS the gender they claim, not the one they are assigned at birth. So your real question is, I think, is the author not capturing how hard it would be for a Khana man raised as a woman and shunned for being their authentic self to accept a place with the men and forsake the society they'd been raised in for 40+ years.

[Bonnie]

Allison thank you you are right of course. He was a man but trapped in a woman's body and role. I was still imagining him as Grandmother Tammah from the first story.

In Real Life I would be (or am, I hope, or try to be) much more sympathetic to people suffering from, Not feeling right in your body, people not accepting you, society forcing things on you. I am being flippant toward fictional characters in a book I was hoping to like more than I do (so far).

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I know you well enough to know it was not intended to do harm! I feel you on wishing I'd liked this more, too. I am also a bit frustrated with how the author used gender and portrayed trans people, actually, so you're not alone in finding that aspect a bit bizarre, either.

[Nicol]

I saw it more as a comment on the gender binary system - so with Nen-Saisir: even though you identify as a gender doesn't mean you want to/like/or follow the gender norms of that gender - does that make sense? So Nen-Saisir identifies as a man but that doesn't automatically mean he wants to do all that men do or in this fantasy society where there are two dominant genders and women and men are segregated; socialize mainly with men - and that doesn't make him any less a man.

And like Bonnie, I saw this story as a fantasy but not a utopia -so you may get one of your truths - like being able to transition (and I liked the idea that a magical cloth could do show your true gender) but that doesn't mean you get all you want.

Especially since Lemberg created this fantasy world that is not a utopia; its this rich magical world where queerness is a given, there is an ability to transition to your true gender without physical pain but it is still a binary system and how harmful binary systems can be - I'm thinking of Kimi when I write this, who as far as I am in the book still hasn't decided, and in my humble opinion, shouldn't have to.

And I think it is of vital importance that we have these stories written and read.

And while I love Lemberg's writing, I do agree with Allison, some of it doesn't seem a fleshed out as possible; I think The Black Tides of Heaven is similar and did some things better.

I haven't finished yet, but I will say I definitely will continue to look out for Lemberg's future works. I loved Geometries of Belonging; and I think there is a lot of commentary there about a gender. I think Lemberg does short stories well. But of course, I don't think you should have to read a short story prequel to understand a novella or novel - I'm wondering if Grandmother-Nai-Leylit's cloth of winds should have been the first part of this book?

Hope that makes sense! This is just waking up for me before my tea! But I saw the discussion and was excited to jump in!

[Travis]

Just finished, and I was pretty disappointed by this one. Like, by the end, much of the prose had a flatness that would be okay with me if the characterization was super rich and the plot was developed. But I agree with Bonnie that characters began to feel interchangeable, and the plot was clearly never the book's main focus. So, then, I guess like Allison says it's meant to be a lyrical novel -- but also like Allison says, whoa does it ever not live up to that expectation. (view spoiler)[Like, would a lyrical novel give you nothing more about a really really important song -- a HUGE song within the life of a central character -- than "a song that begged to be heard." I mean, huh? THAT'S IT??? (hide spoiler)]

There's so much potential here. I would love to read a full novel built on the premise of the first couple of chapters, one that really took time with its story and its characters and its descriptions.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

This part is going to be a spoiler so please use tags, but what did folks think about how gender was portrayed in this story?

[Bonnie]

Well, I wish the Birdverse gender situation were more clear.
"Geometries of Belonging"
...
(view spoiler)[
* Dedei's family is compelling Dedei to become a girl, forcing the teen to wear dresses, locking Dedei in a room. But why? Why would they prefer a girl in the family? Never says.
* Narrator says that there is another region where they will be more accepting of people like Dedei... but does that mean, cis-boys? or people who are some in-between, who prefer not to formally choose one gender or the other?
* These words are used: eladin / eram (possibly something like dominant /submissive?)
* These words are used: ichidi / charadu? (might be something to do with choosing, or unchosen, or a third, neutral gender?)
(hide spoiler)]
....
but gender positions in the story are not clear to me, so I can't get my bearings and don't know "what to root for."

There are no insults like this on the Coast. You choose your gender at the first formal gathering you attend as an adult. Ichidi is not an insult. Ichidar are a part of society.

[Bonnie]

Nicol wrote: "...But of course, I don't think you should have to read a short story prequel to understand a novella or novel - I'm wondering if Grandmother-Nai-Leylit's cloth of winds should have been the first part of this book?..."
I completely agree.
The more I think about it, the more I think that the Four Weaves story actually began three months earlier, in "Grandmother-Nai-Leylit's cloth of winds."
Here's how I would organize it:
(view spoiler)[
Section 1. Grandmother-Nai-Leylit's Cloth of Winds, POV of the granddaughter, Aviya
Section 2. The Sands / Song of Change - the transition with the sandbirds (poetic; even some Poetry)
Section 3. The Journey - POV of Uizuya, her story + Aunt Benesret
Section 4. City of Iyar - POV of Nen-Saisir, alternating with a third-person of Uizuya, so it's clear whose narration you're reading. This is the longest section, with most action.
Section 5. Afterweave. Uizuya and newly-named Kaveh-nen-Kiri become partners, friendly scene with grandkids, they leave together toward the East. (Poetic, @Travis' Song That Begs To Be Heard.)
(hide spoiler)]
YEAH!
I'd like to have four sections corresponding to The Four Profound Weaves, but
(view spoiler)[
since they didn't die at the end, I don't see how to label the last section as Bones / Death.
(hide spoiler)]

[Travis]

Bonnie wrote: "Nicol wrote: "...But of course, I don't think you should have to read a short story prequel to understand a novella or novel - I'm wondering if Grandmother-Nai-Leylit's cloth of winds should have b..."

That's really interesting and helpful.

[Kaa]

Nicol, I agree with everything you said. For me, this felt like an important, although painful and messy, story about one experience of being transgender. The struggle between knowing you are one binary gender while also feeling uncomfortable in the societal construction of that gender is powerfully portrayed. I have mixed feelings about how reliant it is on previous stories in the world, though. And it was hard to tell the difference between the narrative voices.

One aspect that hasn't been mentioned yet but that was important in how I viewed the portrayal of gender is that the author is an Eastern European Jewish immigrant to the US, and it felt like that experience influenced the depiction of the Khana people. It felt to me that a lot of the things that nen-saisir holds onto even when they hurt him are connected with being part of an isolated cultural group living in diaspora.

[Bonnie]

I ran across this when looking for a map: links to various reviews of R.B. Lemberg's works, and a couple interviews/AMAs:

https://tachyonpublications.com/if-youve-not-experienced-r-b-lemberg-before-youre-in-for-a-treat-with-the-four-profound-weaves/

"In moments of great turmoil we turn to art – both to the art that exists already, to the memory of art, and, perhaps most importantly, to the making of new art – to carry us through, to tell the stories that shape our lives, to make meaning out of suffering, grief, and joy. In my book, the maker – who is in her sixties, but who only now is coming to the true mastery of her craft – makes meaning from long-silenced voices. She does not create the voices, but her art helps them to be heard.

--https://quicksipreviews.blogspot.com/2020/08/quick-questions-rb-lemberg-of-four.html

[Mareike]

Bonnie wrote: "After reading those two stories I restarted the book and feel much more comfortable knowing more context about this world.

Through Section II: Wanderlust, the Great Burri Desert.

Things I like: ..."

Many thanks to Bonnie for pointing me to this BR thread!

I agree with several of the points that were raised here - especially that the worldbuilding could have been a little more fleshed out and that it is not ideal that one should ideally read other short stories before reading this one. I did not do that, so some of the magic system stayed a bit nebulous to me throughout.

With regard to some of the things about nen-sasaïr (view spoiler)[I think it was both that he realized that the transition wasn’t a silver bullet that would immediately make his life perfect AND that through the journey with Uizyia his priorities shifted. Like, when he’s standing in front of that secret door to the men’s quarter, I got the impression that he really wanted to go in and leave the world behind, but by that point he’d also come to care about Uizyia and he couldn’t just leave her. So that’s why he turned away from the door. And I actually kinda liked that - a character realizing that what they always wanted isn’t the right choice for them anymore because of how they changed is really beautiful to me.
I also found the encounter with nen-sasaïr’s old friend well done, but heart-wrenching. Like, they clearly cared for him, but they were also unwilling to accept him as him because they themselves were so wedded to their own identities as gender-bending women. And in some ways that’s understandable because they’re struggling against their really binary society and in a situation of constant struggle like that someone’s own identity and the identity of a secret group like that can become really powerful and something people rely on. So seeing someone walk away from that (in some way) is scary. At the same time, I really wanted to shake these women for refusing to accept nen-sasaïr because shouldn’t they of all people be able to? Overall, though, I think that was a good examination of how rigidly gendered societies affect people who don’t fit neatly into that binary and also how being part of an minority group doesn’t always mean that someone or a group of someone’s will be able or willing to be supportive of other minoritized people. (hide spoiler)] That being said, I do wish there had been deeper explorations of all of these things. Like, I finished this and kind of wished the other had taken the time to develop this into a full novel and taken more time to explore some things more fully.

As for the character’s voices (view spoiler)[ I agree that they were very similar, but it felt to me that them becoming more similar was kind of intentional? There’s that repeated point of nen-sasaïr starting to repeat questions like Uizyia until he gets an answer, for example. So, maybe it’s supposed to underline what they learn from each other? (hide spoiler)].

And speaking of Uizyia (view spoiler)[ I liked the imagery of her sitting in that chamber of bones and realizing that her aunts way of weaving from death isn’t the only way and maybe not even the right way. And I really liked this conversation between them:

“The weave of death must be made from those you care about. I told you this, but you would not attend. I killed your husband,” Benesret said. “Took his life, drop by leeched drop for my work. Grief upon grief you have known—but still it wasn’t enough for you to truly desire to weave from death. You were content to remain in the leather tents with your children and your nieces and your goats, forever yearning for my instruction yet never seeking me out, never weaving anything of magic until you followed him here. Until you asked me.”
“Until you harmed me.” I wondered now why she had not taken my children.
Benesret said, “You should be grateful, for it is because I took you that you have learned this, and wove at last from death.” Benesret’s eyes shone with hunger as she looked at the bone-white tapestry I had tucked under my arm. With nen-sasaïr’s help I spread it for her now, bone and ash and yearning and song.
See? I wanted to say. I, a weaver who spent forty years in the tents, discontent yet unmoved even in grief, I, a mortal who would not even learn from you, I have surpassed you. I was tempted to say that, but it was not right. Craft she had aplenty, and between the two of us, she was the greater weaver still. The carpet of song reverberated with a great precision, her mastery, but she did not want what she’d woven. What she wanted was the work I had done.
“You devoured all these people, devoured even me, because you must care for the people you take for your work.” I’d seen this in her—and in the torturer, whose family he killed to create the rod. I saw this even in the Ruler of Iyar. “I have learned this: that you can care about the dead without devouring them. Without using them. This is my story, and my weave.”

Like, her aunt is a terrible person and constantly trying to gaslight her and there’s something profound in Uizyia finding her own way and becoming the student who surpassed her teacher.

It also felt fitting that even though she freed the bones from the dungeon, there was no way for Bird to collect them and that they’d remain in the story of the desert forever. (hide spoiler)]

Finally, I do have to say that I liked (view spoiler)[ that this was a story about two older people who had to work through some baggage, but who still got to go on an adventure and learn more things about themselves. (hide spoiler)] But again, I kinda wanted this to be more fleshed out.