The Mookse and the Gripes discussion
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The Goldsmiths Prize
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2021 Goldsmiths Prize - speculation
WndyJW wrote: Could it be the upcoming novel by Paul Griffiths being published by the exceptional Henningham Family Press?Hope so.
WndyJW wrote: "Ang, didn’t you tell us your son was accepted to or graduated from Goldsmith? I thought of that while reading Bolt from the Blue, which also mentions a fair few of the books this group has talked about in the past."Yes, indeed, he graduated with a music degree. He is hugely enthusiastic about his subject. I will have a look at Bolt from the Blue.
Thank you for remembering.
Bolt from the Blue uses the YBA phenomenon to tell the story, Ang. I bet your son would enjoy Musical Offering. I ordered it for my nephew who loves music.I also heard that Goldberg: Variations is excellent, perhaps your son would enjoy that.
Paul G - the Goldsmith seems to like repeat shortlistees so fingers crossed. I wonder if another past shortlisted Paul might be in contention - Kingsnorth. The third part of the Wake trilogy is I think out this week - Alexandria - the “future” part. It looks like it’s much more back towards The Wake in terms of place and in style with an invented language (Beast was I thought more of a departure in place and style) and in terms of broad theme (an existential conflict between two world views).
Gumble's Yard wrote: "Paul G - the Goldsmith seems to like repeat shortlistees so fingers crossed. Thanks. Thanks also to Wendy, whose message appears, coincidentally, in the novel as a refrain. Sketches towards the cover design are here: https://twitter.com/HenninghamPress.
When will The Tomb Guardians be complete, Paul? I will definitely be preordering. I’m going to die broke now that I’ve discovered Henningham Family Press (and every indie press I love and books in general,) but I’ll die happy.I loved The Wake, was disappointed in Beast, only because I was hoping for the language of The Wake, so didn’t plan on getting the last in the trilogy, but if it will be in the same language as The Wake I’m looking forward to it. I’m a bibliophile as well as reader so I’ll have to wait for the Graywolf edition so the books look good together.
I’m more excited about The Tomb Guardians!
I’m glad I ordered the Gombrich art book, so many of my recent novels have centered around or referred to artist and I have embarrassingly little knowledge of art, but I am genuinely interested. I’m also fortunate that Cleveland has a very art museum.
It’s a different language I think given it’s 1000 years in the future (not the past)
That will still be good. I liked the challenge of reading The Wake, although after two pages it wasn’t as challenging as I thought it would be.
WndyJW wrote: "When will The Tomb Guardians be complete, Paul? I will definitely be preordering. I’m going to die broke now that I’ve discovered Henningham Family Press (and every indie press I love and books in ..."The text is there. You don't need to know any art history - or anything else - in advance; the characters tell you all you need. Yes, the Cleveland Museum of Art is wonderful - though they don't have anything by Bernhard Strigel.
I’ve always had a casual interest in art, but lately I’ve become much more interested and not just to be able to read novels.
WndyJW - I didn’t plan this but a very high proportion of the books I have read so far in 2021 have been about art.
You’re an artist, Neil, with an excellent eye, I have to learn what to look for, how to view art,
WndyJW wrote: "You’re an artist, Neil, with an excellent eye, I have to learn what to look for, how to view art,"In that case, you might also want to watch a series "Civilization" hosted by Kenneth Clark, a great art historian, and then for a an alternative way to see an equally famous series "Ways of Seeing" by John Berger. Both are available as books, but might even be better to watch them. I'm sure they must be available somewhere on Ytube or Vimeo. I agree about Gombrich's The Story of Art as an excellent and accessible introduction.
I saw the book Ways of Seeing by Berger in a list of books about art. I will look for these series, thank you!
WndyJW wrote: "That will still be good. I liked the challenge of reading The Wake, although after two pages it wasn’t as challenging as I thought it would be."I think Alexandria is much more of a return to the ideas, style and themes of The Wake - although of course being set 1000 years in the future rather than in the past necessarily changes it in one sense from historical fiction to sci-fi.
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
WndyJW wrote: "I saw the book Ways of Seeing by Berger in a list of books about art. I will look for these series, thank you!"Two more recommendations.
The Shock of the New
Hughes book is text to accompany the television documentary of the same name. You can find the episodes on YouTube if you wish to sample his narrative style.
The courses on art history available from Great Courses are good as well. https://www.thegreatcourses.com/cours...
They are also a little older but good for your purposes. Several at present are included in the Great Courses Plus channel, available by subscription. https://www.thegreatcoursesplus.com/
WndyJW wrote: "... Ang. I bet your son would enjoy Musical Offering. I ordered it for my nephew who loves music."Funny thing, I thought so too when it first arrived and showed it to him. It turns out he thought I bought it for him and he took it when he moved out in November. I only realised when I looked for it tonight to start reading it. I can read it on Scribd though. :)
Derek wrote: "Assembly by Natasha Brown might be one to watch as well. Being published in July by Hamish Hamilton. Quote from her publisher"This is now available for request on Netgalley. But I am not sure it is Goldsmiths eligible - the author appears to have taken classes there so falls foul of that silly rule (https://www.spreadtheword.org.uk/take...)
I've just read Assembly and whew, it says what it wants to say with forceful eloquence - and it's easily a one-sitting read.
I have requested Assembly on NetGalley so hope to read it sometime soon.I read Alexandria and really didn't get on with it at all.
Roman Clodia wrote: "I've just read Assembly and whew, it says what it wants to say with forceful eloquence - and it's easily a one-sitting read."Yes it was your review that alerted me to it being on Netgalley - thanks!
Hi everyone,I hope it’s cool to post this here, I wanted to get this on the radar of group members.
My novel, Siphonophore, has been entered into the Goldsmiths Prize by my publisher, so in a literal sense it’s ‘in the running’.
I wanted to put something here as readers of this thread will obviously be the kind of people who like the type of writing covered by the Goldsmiths Prize.
I thought it might be worth flashing some ankle on here, see if it might help some new readers find out about the book.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/5...
Cheers,
Jaimie
Jaimie - are you the Jaimie of the Unsound Methods podcast? I love that!! And I see Mark Nash is a fan (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jx5k...) of the book.
I've just ordered a copy from the publisher.
You should also get the publisher to enter it for the Republic of Consciousness Prize (I'd think they'd be eligible)
Yes, Jaimie, Unsound Methods is a great podcast! Look forward to reading your work.
This sounds fabulous. I will be ordering this Thursday.
Paul wrote: "Jaimie - are you the Jaimie of the Unsound Methods podcast? I love that!! And I see Mark Nash is a fan (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jx5k...) of the book.
I've just ordered a copy from th..."
Hi Paul – Thanks, yes, I am indeed from the Unsound Methods podcast. Thanks for ordering the book. We’ve already been discussing the RoC Prize as well, it’s a great prize.
Margaret wrote: "Yes, Jaimie, Unsound Methods is a great podcast! Look forward to reading your work."Hi Margaret – Thanks for the support of the podcast and the book! We’ve got some great Goldsmiths Prize shortlisted writers coming up in the next couple of months.
WndyJW wrote: "This sounds fabulous. I will be ordering this Thursday."(Going out on a limb assuming you're talking about Siphonophore here, which might reflect badly on me!) Thanks so much, WndyJW. I hope you enjoy it.
I am talking about Siphonophore. I watched the attached video and it sounds very good!
I had no idea David Keenan, one of my favourite living authors, had a new 900-page monster out already. Obviously, I ordered it in an instant.https://www.whiterabbitbooks.co.uk/ti...
Seems to have 0 ratings on Goodreads.
Yes - it's been on the Listopia for a while but in the comments at the bottom as it wasn't on Goodreads- has it been added to Goodreads nowInterestingly only one of his two books can be entered into the Goldsmiths, this or Xstabeth, as it is one entry per author. They happen to have been published by the same press, so they can choose, but what happens in an author has two books from different publishers? (I don't think the Booker has the same rule)
And needless to say I'm hoping the other one makes the list not this, as I've read every Goldsmiths listed book ever but a 900-page monster may break that streak.
Tommi wrote: "I had no idea David Keenan, one of my favourite living authors, had a new 900-page monster out already. Obviously, I ordered it in an instant.https://www.whiterabbitbooks.co.uk/ti......"
Have you read England's Hidden Reverse? I have been trying to get my hands on an affordable copy for 2 decades now
No I haven’t Robert – I’m a declared fan of Keenan merely on the basis of For the Good Times and Xstabeth! Speaking of the latter, I didn’t find it quite as innovative or experimental as Good Times, and Monument Maker definitely sounds like an experimental novel, so I’m hoping the monster is submitted for Goldsmiths. (Just don’t let Paul enter the judges’ meetings!)
I find the Goldsmith an odd prize - it is meant to be about fiction that is "genuinely novel and embodies the spirit of invention that characterises the genre at its best" but in practice it has a tendency to tread over the same type of books and is very non-diverse (I think only 5 non-white writers have ever been shortlisted in its history - 1 more than say the 2020 Booker shortlist - there have been I think 4 all white shortlists).I think a lot of the issue is with the narrowness of the judging panel (note I hope this year's judging panel might be an exception: 5 of the previous 8 years have had all white judging panels).
- Most year's have someone from the back pages of the New Statesman (for non UK readers a centre-left weekly political magazine with heavy arts coverage - which sponsors the prize). Now I have read every copy of the New Statesman for the last 10 years but I also read right leaning magazines for political balance
- Most equally understandably have someone from the Goldsmith College
You might think given this conformity and consensus of views that they would then look for outside views but in practice the other judges tend to be picked from the same ranks as the shortlisted authors.
I think 5 of the judges have been previously shortlisted - which makes some sense but runs the risk that the judges then look for the same type of innovation that they look to apply in their own works
And no fewer than 4 judges have gone on to be shortlisted (which strikes me as a little odd)
And I think in total 5 authors have been multiple shortlisted (the same as the Booker and Women's Prize combined for the same period)
5 shortlistees that went on to be judgesLadipo Manyika – shortlist 2016, judge 2020
Gunaratne – shortlist 2018, judge 2019
Barry – Winner 2015, judge 2017
Levy –shortlist 2016, judge 2018
Eaves – shortlist 2014, 2018, judge 2020
4 judges that went on to be shortlisted
McBride – winner 2013, judge 2015, shortlist 2016
Barker – judge 2013, winner 2017
McGregor – judge 2015, shortlist 2017
Josipovici – judge 2013, shortlist 2018
Including McBride and Eaves fives authors have been multi-nominated
Smith - shortlist 2013, winner 2014
Cusk – shortlist 2014, 2016, 2018 (much as I loved the trilogy can a trilogy really be listed for an innovation prize three times)
Schofield – shortlist 2016, 2020
For the Booker the multinominees in the sanme years are I think Smith and Suhota
For the Women's Prize Smith, Shamsie and Mantel
Ali Smith having done the hattrick
I am sure some of the above data is wrong - I did most of it on a car journey - but the point I think is an interesting one
I think in terms of past shortlistees and judges the following may be eligible this year (in rough order of my view on likelieness)Gwendoline Riley – My Phantoms
Rachel Cusk – Second Place
Isabel Waidner – Sterling Karat Gold
Paul Griffiths – The Tomb Guardians
Jon McGregor – Lean Fall Stand
Max Porter – The Death of Francis Bacon
Adam Mars Jones – Batlava Lake
Chris Power – A Lonely Man
Paul Kingsnorth - Alexandria
Yes we've discussed the incestuous nature of the prize before but it doesn't go away as an issue and is a real concern. And the diversity - the 5 white male author shortlist was a low point, although the judges did acknowledge it and claimed it reflected the entries (but then do the entries reflect the prize's history?)The shortlistees becoming judges makes some sense, but I can see perpetuates a certain type of innovative literature, and turns it into a genre of its own.
That said Ladipo Manyika and Gunaratne added hopefully different perspectives And I suspect Gunaratne was the driver for listing a transgender author which is still a Booker blindspot and perhaps the biggest divide in literary circles - most authors/publishers are anti-racism and anti-sexism but when one of the world's richest authors uses her platform in the way she does, and has many supporters, transphobia still seems a barrier to break down. That book was of course also one explicitly about how avant-garde fiction is often seen as a white, heterosexual, male preserve - it really should have won.
The former judges then being shortlisted is an odd one - particularly for a prize that is overly obsessed with ruling out anyone with even a passing Goldsmiths connection (horrible feeling this will rule out Assembly this year). On the other hand rather hard to argue against those specific books being on the list on merit.
Let's see what the judges produce this year but it would be nice to see explicit acknowledgement of diversity of voices.
Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "I think in terms of past shortlistees and judges the following may be eligible this year (in rough order of my view on likelieness)Gwendoline Riley – My Phantoms
Rachel Cusk – Second Place
Isabel..."
And yes all of those except the Powers (which didn't look terribly innovative) were on the listopia.
For Booker overlap this year, Second Place is the obvious contender (and very different to the trilogy but I'd agree listing all 3 was odd), not sure there are others.
The other thing that needs adding to the listopia is the never-fail category of "books Gumble and Neil have read, often in ARC, but omitted to mention on this thread."
Robert wrote: "THave you read England's Hidden Reverse? I have been trying to get my hands on an affordable copy for 2 decades now"This publisher is producing a new edition next year - http://strangeattractor.co.uk/shoppe/...
Worth contacting them to pre-order perhaps?
Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "I think in terms of past shortlistees and judges the following may be eligible this year (in rough order of my view on likelieness)Gwendoline Riley – My Phantoms"
I really loved My Phantoms but is it novel and inventive?
Roman Clodia wrote: "I really loved My Phantoms but is it novel and inventive?"I wasn't totally convinced First Love was that novel either, though I really liked it.
I'd also say no for this one. Compared to Sterling Karat Gold, Second Place, The Tomb Guardians, Siphonophore, Mrs Death Misses Death, little scratch, Dead Souls, Radio Joan, Assembly, Fox Fires and A Certain Slant of Light - I'd struggle to justify its place
But as GY points out sometimes for the Goldsmiths innovative = book by author previously identified as such by the Prize.
Paul wrote: "Robert wrote: "THave you read England's Hidden Reverse? I have been trying to get my hands on an affordable copy for 2 decades now"This publisher is producing a new edition next year - http://str..."
Thanks so much paul!!!!
And one of the judges gave Phantoms a rave review in The Times
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The Mookse and the Gripes
Books mentioned in this topic
Variations (other topics)Siphonophore (other topics)
Assembly (other topics)
Assembly (other topics)
Alexandria (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Caleb Azumah Nelson (other topics)Nell Stevens (other topics)
Fred D'Aguiar (other topics)
Kamila Shamsie (other topics)
Could it be the upcoming novel by Paul Griffiths being published by the exceptional Henningham Family Press? Will that be out in time?