Christian Speculative Fiction discussion
Discussion & Reflections
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What I like in Fantasy books and what I see...and why I find it hard to obtain satisfying books to read.
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In my audacity might I suggest you try my own work. The Third Heaven series. It's a 4 books series that addresses the fall of Lucifer.There is no sex, there is violence along the lines of Lord of the Rings. Epic armies and the conflicts of the heroes fighting. You can learn more about me (I am the author) at donovanmneal.com
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FD09LE8
God bless,
Donovan
Glenn, I totally agree with you and you are not alone in how you feel. You've expressed some of my biggest frustrations with the fantasy genre, and one of the reasons why I write fantasy (besides the fact that in theory, I like fantasy) is to provide a lighthearted, tasteful, and emotionally safe alternative to so much of the weirdly traumatic literature out there nowadays.One thing I wish I could get across to beginning writers is to not try to make their writing a replacement for therapy. While I think for many people it's tempting to try to process your issues through storytelling, what you end up with is a horrifying creation that doesn't do anyone any good to read. And it doesn't really resolve things for you, either. I wish more writers would remember that other thinking, feeling human beings are indeed reading their work and potentially becoming very disturbed and even traumatized by it. I have known of cases of PTSD developing from reading literature that was just way out of line. Some people can harbor a lot of festering darkness in their hearts that nobody else besides a therapist should be exposed to.
I find it frustrating and sad how many publishers encourage "dark" and "edgy" from writers because controversy sells, and how many writers buy into that. Such are the times we live in, when an appalling number of people are turning away from God and venturing down destructive paths. 2 Timothy chapter 3, verses 2-4 sums it up pretty well, I think.
But there is hope. As I said before, I have made it my mission to create fun, intelligent, safe and wholesome fantasy literature for a family audience. I know there are other Christians and good moral people who still have standards in their writing. There's actually been a bit of a resurgence lately among teens and young people who are demanding more "clean" literature, and I've seen a number of authors who have risen to the occasion. I think there is a definite counter-trend among authors and readers who refuse to get swept into the tide of trash that's filling bookstores these days. So don't give up; I'm sure there's at least one author out there who writes fantasy the way you like it. And if not, well, you can always write your own! That's why I started writing--I was having a hard time finding things I liked to read, and decided to solve that problem myself.
And I also think it's a little odd how so much epic fantasy seems to take forever to get through a plotline! I've read multiple-book epic fantasy that just had such a plodding, stretched-out pace that it felt like the book took pages to get to something interesting or plot-relevant. If all of the unnecessary traveling details, purposeless conversations, and point-of-view characters' mental meanderings were cut out, I think a lot of epic fantasy would be at least half as long as it currently is. I mean, I wrote an epic fantasy and managed to contain it within a single book, so it is possible.
And I'm not saying that because I have the attention span of a squirrel (I don't). I actually love Lord of the Rings, but one of the reasons why I love it is because it is just so rich. Tolkien uses his word count to make his world come alive and surprise and delight (or suspend) the reader at every turn. If some readers don't enjoy breathtaking scenery descriptions or fascinating glimpses into a world's history, that's fine, but I do, and I think LotR is a great example of a well-done long-form novel.
I remember going to a Christian women's retreat where we explored literature. The end result was a consensus that much of what was published under the "Christian" label was pablum. They weren't discussing fantasy, but general fiction. At the time in Fantasy we had Robert Jordan, who certainly wasn't writing pablum (despite his fascination for Tairen dresses and weird insistence on dragging us all through the Slog). But yes, as time has marched on, the quality of writing has deteriorated. Certainly the subject matter has gone south. I believe the Enemy saw the reality of Christ presented to unsuspecting minds and so he muddied the waters thoroughly. There's a distinct lack of care for the essential elements of a "fairy story" as expressed by Tolkien: escape, comfort and eucatastrophe. Of the third, Tolkien said "Far more powerful and poignant is the effect [of joy] in a serious tale of Faerie. In such stories, when the sudden turn comes, we get a piercing glimpse of joy, and heart's desire, that for a moment passes outside the frame, rends indeed the very web of story, and lets a gleam come through."Lewis talks about this quality too but he calls it simply Joy. I think that is what you are missing.
I would argue that in whatever genre we write, Christians have the responsibility (mandate) to bring in these elements. But that's another topic. But we as Christians don't make our literature "clean" to avoid offense in the sense the world sees it. It's because to us, the pain and sorrow of sin stinks like a corpse and to bring it in and leave it there we had best have a really good reason. It's so much better to lift the heart and spirit. It's also deeply difficult to do it properly.
I digress.
At any rate, I can recommend good books. LE Modisett's Recluce series or his Imager series might be a good place for you to start. The Prince of Fools by Marc Lawrence (and following volumes) This isn't fantasy, but magical realism – Boy's Life by Robert McCammon. It's well worth a read. Susan Cooper wrote a series of "Children's books" called The Dark is Rising. I reread those every year. You'll find plenty of joy and eucatastrophe within them. None of these bear the label Christian. They are all filled with glory.
My own book, Sorrowfish, has much wonder in it.
anyhow. I hope this helps. Perhaps you are being called to write.
Wow, Anne, you completely expressed how I feel and the driving forces behind my literary ministry (if I can dare to call it that). Thank you so much. I needed to hear your message this morning. It really validated everything I've been trying to do with my writing.I'd never heard that Tolkien quote, but it drives home why he is one of my favorite authors and writing inspirations. It seems like so many people have forgotten how to write true happiness, goodness, and joy. Whatever hold the enemy has upon their hearts seems to have rendered them incapable of remembering or wishing to express the higher and nobler side of humanity and the universe, which is every bit as real as its opposite. I would say it is even more real, because it is what will win in the end. I often think that one of the devil's most dangerous weapons is turning people's powerful talents to his cause. It saddens me whenever I encounter a piece of media that is so well done technically, but so wretched in its content.
I agree that our talents are so much better spent uplifting our readers, and the fact that it is more difficult just speaks of how important it is, for nothing worth doing is ever easy. I always feel so satisfied and exhilarated when I finish a novel that is intelligent, unique, exciting, and deep, and also pleasant, joyous, positive, and so safe a child could read it and not find it upsetting. Sin offends my soul, so I make a point to avoid particularly grievous types of it in my writing, because I believe in taking care of myself mentally, emotionally, and spiritually by not allowing damaging things into my life. I wish the same for the rest of God's children, so my writing is my gift to them.
Philippians 4:8 is one of my favorite verses when it comes to how I approach my writing. I like to not only think on these things, but write on these things to help others think about them.
I actually write with a particular sympathy toward those dealing with mental illness, especially PTSD. I think it's important for them to have non-triggering media to enjoy and feel safe with, and I'm frustrated by how insensitive even some middle-grade literature can be. I think there are a lot of readers who don't like or need to be reminded of some things, so I'm very happy to provide books for them that meet their important and valid needs.
On a more prosaic and practical level, I forgot to mention this last night, but the market term for what we've been discussing is "values-based literature". While much of it is written by Christians, it does not contain overt religious themes but does strive for higher moral standards and an uplifting worldview in storytelling. Shadow Mountain Publishing is a good example of a publisher who specializes in values-based lit. It's wonderful to see so many other authors who are using their talents wisely and being a good example to their fellow writers who are lost in other paths.
Thank you! All of you!
Off to check out the books suggested and ordering at least one when money is available, (saving up to take my wife to Quebec where she was adopted by an American couple.)
Now I just need for our passports to approved and COVID to be brought under control.
Off to check out the books suggested and ordering at least one when money is available, (saving up to take my wife to Quebec where she was adopted by an American couple.)
Now I just need for our passports to approved and COVID to be brought under control.
ok, save Marc Lawrence for last. lol. that series I recommended is called The Red Queen's War and while it is not horrible, the main character is a scoundrel and a coward (a very likable one) and he isn't terribly moral. lol. But he is set against (and becomes friends with ) a gentle giant who does have morals. they're fun. But you might find some of the main character's antics questionable. Nothing really beyond PG13 though, if I recall correctly.
Going off on a bit of a tangent, I think I've discovered some insight into why so much contemporary epic fantasy seems to be so long. In doing some research about book pricing, I've found that it's a suggested marketing tactic for indie authors to write a series, offer the first book in the series for free or 0.99, and charge full price for the rest of the series. The idea there being that people are more likely to take a chance on a book being offered for free or a rock-bottom price, and with any luck they'll get hooked on the plotline and will be willing to pay for the rest of the books to continue the story. The whole strategy sort of reminds me of "pay-to-win" mobile games where the game is free to download, but in order to play past the first level, you end up having to buy the rest of the game. But that's another subject for another day.
From a writing perspective, what this says to me is that authors are being encouraged to stretch their stories out as much as possible in order to gain maximum profits, and that just makes my creative integrity shudder. I feel like these marketing articles are essentially saying, "You must write a series in order to succeed. If you do not already have a series planned, take your next book idea and find a way to make it longer."
While some people do write epic fantasy that is truly long-form and requires multiple books despite being well-paced, I worry that a number of indie fantasy authors have gotten the wrong idea and made their stories much longer than they needed to be - or indeed the authors originally envisioned them to be - for the sake of selling as many individual books as possible and buying into this marketing plan.
Yes this is a common thing. However I am currently expanding my series from 3 books to nine in order to simplify my story. LOL. I know that sounds crazy but where my first book had a HUGE cast (127 named characters in the first draft, thankfully I whittled it down a lot) I need the rest of my books to be simple. Not so much to follow. One plot, maybe 2 subplots. A few characters. It's taken me a year to get to this point and I know the books will be better for it. My editor was thrilled. lol. So where my book outlines were on a spreadsheet, they are now nicely controlled in a linear fashion. Live and learn.
Okay, I just found this thread. One of the reasons I began writing was to counter the trends I'm seen in fantasy. I boldly state I am a writer of Christian Fantasy. I've been accused of darkness and I've been accused of Deus Ex Machina. To quote a review of The Sorcerer's Bane (book 1 of The Seven Words) on Amazon: "In The Sorcerer's Bane, C. S. Wachter provides memorable take on the timeless good vs. evil conflict, blending fantasy (magic), science fiction (wormholes), and Christianity (the One and the Light Bringer). This is an intense, engrossing epic with vivid characters and the lush descriptions you'd expect in this genre. When it comes to the action, Wachter pulls no punches -- her villains are brutal, and she is unafraid to put her protagonist through pain and peril to show how high the stakes are. At times, I found myself recoiling at the depravity of certain characters, so if you have a weak stomach, you have been warned!In all, this is an inventive debut novel from a promising series. Wachter is a welcome new voice in fantasy, and I look forward to the next book."
I do not, however, glorify the depravity. I show it as depravity and then show how my MC recovers from the abuse and grows into the man of prophecy he is called to be. His early life prepares him to face the battles (physical and spiritual) that he will face as his journey progresses. By the end, he becomes a strong, Christ-like figure.
I've said it before, I do not write vanilla; I write Rocky Road. I do not glorify demonic darkness but show how, through the strength of God, a hero can overcome adversity and save his world (in this case seven worlds) from demonic darkness and slavery.
Yes. Christian truths are woven through the story. Themes of courage, faith, trust, forgiveness, and redemption are worked out through the four book series, the following short story, and the sequel. Yes. God, called the One in these books, isn't an absent clockmaker. He is alive and well and an ever present help for his Chosen Light Bringer.
Anne wrote: "Yes this is a common thing. However I am currently expanding my series from 3 books to nine in order to simplify my story. LOL. I know that sounds crazy but where my first book had a HUGE cast (127..."No offense meant, of course, to those who feel the need to expand their story for the sake of the story itself. :) It sounds like you've been having a lot of fun with the creative process for your series, and that's wonderful! It's always so satisfying when a story starts to come together, especially when you've been working so hard on it for a long time. I hope all goes well with it!
I guess I rankled at the whole "everybody should be writing series for maximum profit" thing because I am just not a series writer. It doesn't seem to be the way my creativity works, for the most part. All of my novels up to this point have been single-book standalones, not even set in the same universe as each other. My book coming out next month is the (long-awaited) sequel to my first book, which I published seven years ago. The sequel was born not out of attempting to make a series, but because fans wanted a sequel, I found myself wondering what a sequel would look like, and then I came up with some solid ideas that got me wanting to write it. But even this sequel is a stand-alone that's designed to be enjoyed even by people who have never read the original.
So for people who already have a multi-book series that was planned that way for the sake of the story, I can see why it makes sense to offer the first book at an "introductory" price, so people can see if the series is something they want to continue reading without feeling like they've wasted much money. I'm just concerned that some indie authors will get the idea that in order to be successful, they need to have a series, and as a result they'll stretch and warp a perfectly good story into something of inferior quality to fit an "optimum" marketing tactic.
T.K. wrote: "Anne wrote: "Yes this is a common thing. However I am currently expanding my series from 3 books to nine in order to simplify my story. LOL. I know that sounds crazy but where my first book had a H..."No offense taken. I understand what you are saying and agree. I did reduce the e-book of The Sorcerer's Bane, book one of The Seven Words so readers could check out the series without breaking the bank. But that decision came after the series was complete and I was working on a new project.
The story told through the four books of The Seven Words series was written as a wholistic story that I planned to end after The Light Unbound. It did, however, gain a short story addition and a sequel because, like what happened to you, readers asked me for more of the story.
And yes, I do like writing series. Longer stories tend to call for the series format, especially in epic fantasy. My second series, Stone Sovereigns is a YA fantasy and is only two books long which was appropriate for not only the genre but for the story itself.
I am, once again, working on a larger epic fantasy story that at this point, looks as if it will top out at three books. At least that is my current plan. My characters, however, do seem to enjoy altering my plans.
C.S. wrote: "T.K. wrote: "Anne wrote: "Yes this is a common thing. However I am currently expanding my series from 3 books to nine in order to simplify my story. LOL. I know that sounds crazy but where my first..."Nice, sounds like fun! I definitely would not be averse to a series if I ever felt like any of my stories got that long. One of my novels was probably pushing the limits of a single-book story at 112,000 words. I think if it had gotten much longer, I would have had to split it into two books. And if I ever decide on an audiobook adaptation, I will probably ask the narrator I work with how he feels about splitting it into two audiobooks, because having the whole thing narrated in one project would probably be out of my budget. But, I also don't tend to write epic fantasy, so I can see why my novels are usually more on the concise side compared to your work.
Ohhh yes, I know how it feels to have characters alter plans. :) I wish you many happy adventures with yours!
Mod
Another reason for long novels or series these days is that Kindle Unlimited pays authors by # of pages read.
Stan wrote: "T.K. wrote: "Going off on a bit of a tangent, I think I've discovered some insight into why so much contemporary epic fantasy seems to be so long."Another reason for long novels or series these d..."
That makes sense. It's sad to see some people sacrifice creative integrity to try to squeeze as much money as they can out of a book.
Quick update. Took some time to read three books listed.
From most recent to first:
Hardcopy was Imager (hardback which I missed noting when ordering.)
Virtual copies of Magic of Recluce and Sorrowfish.
All 3 reviews posted on Goodreads. Note - a four is a really good rating from me. Threes are “likes” in the social media world (which I generally have abandoned.). Two are for “niche appeal but okay” or “just missed with me” and I really avoid 1’s were possible unless I felt it is toxic. Buy yourself a comfort food in celebration of a Five. Not as rare as hen’s teeth but I am really tough on non-historical books.
Thanks for a great list of books as inspiration.
Gracias,
Glenn
From most recent to first:
Hardcopy was Imager (hardback which I missed noting when ordering.)
Virtual copies of Magic of Recluce and Sorrowfish.
All 3 reviews posted on Goodreads. Note - a four is a really good rating from me. Threes are “likes” in the social media world (which I generally have abandoned.). Two are for “niche appeal but okay” or “just missed with me” and I really avoid 1’s were possible unless I felt it is toxic. Buy yourself a comfort food in celebration of a Five. Not as rare as hen’s teeth but I am really tough on non-historical books.
Thanks for a great list of books as inspiration.
Gracias,
Glenn
Awww, I'm honored to have received such a good review! I hope you enjoyed Modesitt. He's one of my favorites. A comfort read when I'm feeling battered by the world. You're welcome!
Mod
Currently, I have had more luck in publishing short stories than novels, but even then, I find that publishers seem to be looking for something edgy and politically correct. I find that a bit boring.
I have been diving into comedic fantasy (an extremely hard sell, btw), and I am finding more of our humanity in that to use in my more serious writing. I think as a society, we are trying to take every issue so seriously and make it life or death that we have forgotten what was worth living for. Love, hope, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, and faithfulness are the virtues the best heroes strived for, not just saving the world/universe. When our heroes are just trying to survive in the most base parts of human nature to the point of brutal animal instinct (are animals even THAT brutal?), we too lose our humanity. God created us to reach beyond our natural instincts too a higher level of virtue. Doing the impossible good in darkness is what fantasy was all about. It is a genre to help us explore what is life all about and what is worth living for. I am afraid it is a hard sell which is why I am in the self-publishing world.
Fantasy has always been a fringe genre, but good fantasy is even more fringe right now.
Some mainstream fantasy to try are Chronicles of Prydain and some of Brandon Sanderson's stuff like Elantris.
I would be interested to hear what you think of my fantasy trilogy. It is on the shorter side with each book being under 150 pages. I plan to release them as one book at the end of the year. Tales of Elhaanai deals with themes of redemption and the idea that your beginning does not dictate your end. I have received some backlash stating I glorified “witchcraft” which is definitely not the case. There are clear sides throughout my stories, light vs darkness and the battle between them. Joshua 1:9 is was a constant source of inspiration as I wrote and I hope readers will see the faith within the lines.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B08TLZ...
Laura, I know you read and liked The Sorcerer's Bane back in 2018. Thank you for the kind review. You mentioned wanting to continue the series. Here's the link to my Amazon Author page if you are still interested. It is fantasy with Christian themes and if you survived the darkness of The Sorcerer's Bane, you will, most likely enjoy the rest of the series, the short story, Demon's Legacy, and the sequel, A Weight of Reckoning. To quote your post above, "Doing the impossible good in darkness is what fantasy was all about." That kind of fantasy is what I have worked to achieve in both The Seven Words series and my newest YA series, Stone Sovereigns. https://www.amazon.com/C-S-Wachter/e/...
Mod
Glad this thread is still gathering books to consider.
Lara wrote: "I think there are many people who dislike the trend in the modern fantasy fiction market for dark books. The fastest-growing market in fantasy is the young adult segment. Market research shows more..."This post really hits the nail on the head for me. I feel the same way honestly, about the clutter modern stories often concern themselves with, about wanting a focused adventure, and about reaching for those greater things God has set before us.
I apologize in advance if this sounds like I'm trying to self-promote, but I really tried to realize these concepts in my Zealot Finale series. I wanted to write about real evil (sin) and real good (Christ), and as I did so, I found that the narrative became and remained incredibly personal throughout, even though the stakes do eventually come to include saving the universe. It was (and is) fun to write, because it always feels like what I'm writing is pertinent to real life; that's because the Bible is always pertinent.
I love fantasy, but sometimes when I try to read it, it feels like the elements, or the stakes, just aren't high enough. The carnal concerns of many authors are mundane; I know that sounds mean, but it's hard to care about a romance between two selfish people, or about a sinful world's struggle to survive against some generic "evil" so it can go on in its perpetual folly. It's like you were saying: God's intent is for us to seek and have greater things than the animals. He created us to seek Him.
I feel like there're likeminded individuals on this board regarding this point, and even in this topic there are books to read that understand what we're talking about here. I'm really glad I found this board. :)
I am a 70 year old mixed heritage male with a Presbyterian and evangelical leaning to my Christianity. Retired from the Intelligence field so I have history working with people who have not always felt treated well by Christians (LGBT, Muslims, LGBT Muslims, etc.,) and have a family friend who while otherwise a strong Christian in practice who does challenge my theological bent being in the LGBT affinity group. Not a prude by any means since I recognize my own sinful nature and history but wondering what the blazes happened to Fantasy when I wasn’t looking.
Right now I find a lot of the fantasy being published takes a view of morality that makes me uncomfortable in the explicit aspects of character sexuality, graphically relishing of gore in the violence, and/or “hero” characters with really poor lifestyle choices being celebrated by the authors. Seems every time I find a interesting sounding book a quick check on reviews makes me stop and say, “Um, no...” So frustrating.
Now I am an old school Dungeons and Dragons player since circa 1974 and remember the lack of internal logic not to mention outright lying coming out of several well known at the time Satanic Panic people. Compared to the Holocaust, the KKK and the horror of real world warfare (napalm or Agent Orange for example) plus being a military historian D&D was and is a non threat in my mind. I am not against a certain level of human sinfulness in the heroes or a certain level of good intentions in the villains. The details of the torture or physical/sexual abuse just do not in my mind need to be explicitly detailed to carry impact to the reader IMO.
Thusly I am not saying every author needs to be as genteel as JRR Tolkien or C. S. Lewis because fantasy almost always has implicit conflict/violence in the story. I just want to find a balance between the conflict of Good and Evil in a story that doesn’t require me to wade through the author’s pet politics, moral self-justification of aberrant lifestyle choices, or an amoral grimdark worldview.
Is there any hope in my quest? Or am I just going to find my current reading about World War 1 and the Pandemic of 1918 as a lighthearted alternative to Fantasy today?
Don’t get me started on why every writer seems to be unable to wrap up their epic fantasy in twelve books or less. Okay, hyperbole, but still not every series needs to make Lord of the Rings sound like a short story but that is digression.