The History Book Club discussion
This topic is about
The Day of Battle
THE SECOND WORLD WAR
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WE ARE OPEN - WEEK THREE - THE DAY OF BATTLE - January 26th - February 1st - Chapter Two: The Burning Shore, The Land of the Cyclops,...etc. (91-121) - No Spoilers
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For the week of January 26th - February 1st, we are reading Chapter 2- The Burning Shore - The Land of the Cyclops - The Loss of Irrecoverable Hours - "Tonight Wear White Pajamas" - "The Dark World is Not Far From Us" - pages 91-121 of the book-The Day of Battle: The War in Sicily and Italy 1943-1944 by Rick Atkinson.
The third week's reading assignment is:
Week Three- January 26th - February 1st, 2015
Chapter Two - The Burning Shore - The Land of the Cyclops - The Loss of Irrecoverable Hours - "Tonight Wear White Pajamas" - "The Dark World is Not Far From Us" - pages 91-121
We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.
This book is being kicked off on January 12th
We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle.
This weekly thread will be opened up on January 26th
There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.
Bentley will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Assisting Moderators Bryan, Kathy, Jerome and Jill.
Welcome,
~Jerome
TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL
by
Rick AtkinsonREMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.
Notes:
It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.
Citations:
If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.
If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Introduction thread:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Table of Contents and Syllabus:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Glossary:
Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.
Glossary - Part One- https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Glossary - Part Two - https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Glossary - Part Three - https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Bibliography:
There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
by
Rick AtkinsonDirections on how to participate in book discussions and how to follow the t's and c's - look at directives given for the discussion Landslide - What Do I Do Next?
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Mod
However if we discuss folks outside the scope of the book or another book is cited which is not the book and author discussed then we do have to do that citation according to our citation rules. That makes it easier to not disrupt the discussion.
Mod
The third week's reading assignment is:
Week Three - January 26th - February 1st
Chapter Two- - The Land of the Cyclops - The Loss of Irrecoverable Hours - "Tonight Wear White Pajamas" - "The Dark World is Not Far From Us" - pages 91-121
Chapter Overview and Summary:
Chapter 2: The Burning Shore - The Land of the Cyclops - The Loss of Irrecoverable Hours - "Tonight Wear White Pajamas" - "The Dark World is Not Far From Us"
Part One
The Burning Shore
Land of the Cyclops
Airborne forces invade Sicily as ground forces attack from the sea. Confusion reigns on the beachheads and the operation exposes the risks of glider operations.
The Loss of Irrecoverable Hours
Axis commanders are beset with misfortune and confusion, having expected Allied landings at Sardinia and Greece. The poor state of Axis communications prove a serious handicap, but Feldmarschall Albert Kesselring believes a defeat of the invasion feasible.
"Tonight Wear White Pajamas"
Allied invasion forces suffer from a lack of adequate air cover as friendly-fire mishaps plague the airborne troops. Eisenhower and Bradley arrive on the beachhead.
"The Dark World is Not Far from Us"
American troops are overwhelmed by the sheer number of surrenders on the Italians' part. American atrocities committed on Axis prisoners at Gela catch the attention of the Allied high command.
Mod
Therefore I am opening the discussion threads early in case of power outages where I am.
Please feel free to carry on and open up the discussion.
I have to say after reading about the paratroopers, you really appreciate how crazy the whole operation was. Again, like North Africa, the men get scattered.
Mod
Interesting thought, Jerome. Why did people risk higher casualties? People at the home front also accepted the high rates, too.
Mod
It was a different era, for sure.
I'm afraid that I am not so sure decisions would be carried out all that differently if we faced a major ground war today. Egos and politics still play too large part in battle planning.
Here is a question I am pondering after reading this section: Were the American troops who killed German Prisoners really being immoral, as patron declares(p120.) Maybe they thought that killing prisoners was what they were supposed to do. ?
Personally, I am not sure what the right of the right answer to this question is. I can certainly buy Sergeant West’s argument that patron’s “rhetoric incited him to mayhem.”(p120” However, he was examined by psychiatrists and found sane, so you could also reasonably conclude that he knew what he was doing.
Jerome and Skeeter, good issues. Maybe it is also the scale of the war...it is easier to justify larger casualties if you have so many troops in battle.
Great question, Steve, and a hard one. You certainly had legal instruments in place (1907 Geneva Conventions), so POWs should be treated well, which goes back to a moral issue. But that does not stop someone from killing prisoners that is for sure.
I think there is a moral part of POW that one can argue the Americans violated. Also, I remember in the first book, the author talked about the Americans not "hating enough" and now maybe in this example, we are now seeing Americans mentally moving more into a true war-like state. War does bring abuse and trauma.
It is a tough question, especially when viewed through the lense of time as we are. One thing I would bring up for thought is that every effort was made to suppress the information of the POW killings from the public. Yet years later, we would see quick outrage and prosecution of German troops killing American POWs during the Battle of the Bulge.I keep thinking of the phrases "War is hell." And the winners write history.
I'm sure taking POW's strained already sparse food and water supplies, not to mention being forced to pull troops from the battlefield to either guard them or transport them to the rear.
Skeetor wrote: "I'm afraid that I am not so sure decisions would be carried out all that differently if we faced a major ground war today. Egos and politics still play too large part in battle planning."Agreed.
Jerome wrote: "Not too sure, but maybe the image of World War Two as "the good war" had something to do with it. Back then, it seems like casualties were viewed as necessary or glorious sacrifices; these days nat..."Hi Brian and Jerome
This was not Vietnam or Iraq - the Japanese bombed us - they killed Americans and by now the infarmous Bataan Death March had happened (not sure how much home folks knew) and we knew lots of Americans were being killed.
So this was a "good war: in that we were being hurt unless we stopped these guys. And the Germans and Italians declare war on us before we did on them.
It was not Iraq - you could envision your parents, sweethearts, wifes, kids etc. being killed or hurt if we did not win the war.
Hi Folks - interesting things I noted in this chapterPg 91 - Operation Mincemeat. Good book on the subject is
Ben MacintyreThe details are quite interesting. The ability to get it done.
Pg 103 - the use of Naval Power illustrates the advantages of US industrial might.
Pg. 104 - why was Donovan there? I did not know or remember that he had won the Congressional Metal of Honor. - certainly made him a "made man" to Patton (using a Mafia term)
Also one could think of both Donovan and Roosevelt - both fighters from both World Wars - what a powerful image. Roosevelt having left the military for a governmental- diplomatic live in between.
Pgs 105 - 106 - seeing the support for the vessels and the army fellows from the Army Air Force one can only understand why the services eventually wanted to have their own "aircraft assets."
pgs 108 - 109 - shooting down our own paratroopers - OMG - SNAFU wouldn't work as no one would accept thsi could be normal. But then in victory on pg 112 Patton says "...I feel immune from censure...." but it was partly his responsibility if not actually his fault. (a case of the victor making the judgements - writing the history so to say?)
pg 118 - the killing of Italian prisoners and Patton tries to justify these acts. What was his character? Did he lie to himself and then pass the lie onto others? It must be so hard to come down on guys who put all on the line for you and your battle. But what do we think of Patton now?
And I note that pg. 122 (shades of the future at Abu Ghraib) Sgt. West, the NCO, was guilty (even if eventually let off) but the commission officer Capt, Compton was acquitted.
Mod
Yes, not that there is ever a good war but World War II came closer to that than any other war we have been in since.
Your citation is good aside from your leaving out the word by but all of the components are there in the right order:
by
Ben MacintyreHow horrible about the paratroopers.
Again - wartime makes folks think about things differently and it depends unfortunately who is on the losing side. Right should be right and wrong should be wrong - war crimes should be war crimes no matter which side of the war you are on - but it does seem to make a difference on how things are perceived depending upon whether you are the winner or the loser. It shouldn't but it does.
Mod
The Syllabus for:
The Day of Battle: The War in Sicily and Italy 1943-1944
Week One - January 12th - January 18th 2015
Prologue and Part One-1.Across the Middle Sea -Forcing the World Back to Reason - pages 1-46
Week Two - January 19th - January 25th
Part One - 1. Across the Middle Sea - Calypso' Island and The Horses of the Sun and Death of Glory and Part Two The Burning Shore - pages 46-91
Week Three - January 26th - February 1st
Part One -2 The Burning Shore - The Land of the Cyclops and The Loss of Irrecoverable Hours and "Tonight Wear White Pajamas" and "The Dark World is Not Far From Us" - pages 91-121
Week Four - February 2nd - Februrary 8th
Part One -3. An Island Redoubt - "Into Battle with Stout Hearts" and How I Love Wars and Snaring the Head Devil and Fevers of an Unknown Origin and A Great Grief and In A Place Like This - pages 125-175
Week Five - February 9th - February - 15th
Part Two -4.- Salerno - “Risks Must Be Calculated" and Plots, Counterplots, and Cross-plots and The Stillest Shoes the World Could Boast and The Moan of Lost Souls - pages 179-227
Week Six - February 16th - February 22rd
Part Two - 4.Salerno - A Portal Win and Part Two- 5. Corpse of the Siren- "I Give You Naples and "Watch Where You Step and Have No Curiosity at All" and The Mountainous Hinterland - pages 227-263
Week Seven - February 23rd - March 1st
Part Two - 5. Corpse of the Siren - The Mountainous Hinterland and "The Entire World Was Burning" and Part Two - 6. Winter - The Archangel Michael, Here and Everywhere - pages 265-293
Week Eight - March 2nd - March 8th
Part Two - 6. Winter - "A Tank Too Big for the Village Square" and A Gangster's Battle and Too Many Gone West - pages 293-318
Week Nine - March 9th - March 15th
Part Three - 7. A River and a Rock - Colonel Warden Makes a Plan and "Nothing Was Right Except the Courage" - pages 322-350
Week Ten - March 16th -March 22nd
Part Three - 7. A River and a Rock - The Show Must Go On - and 8. Perdition - “Something's Happening" and Through the Looking Glass - pages 351-385
Week Eleven - March 23rd - March 29th
Part Three - 8. Perdition - Jerryland and 9. The Murder Space -This World and the Next World at Strife - pages 385-412
Week Twelve - March 30th - April 5th
Part Three - 9. The Murder Space - The Bitchhead and "Man Is Distinguished from the Beasts" - pages 412-441
Week Thirteen - April 6th - April 12th
Part Four - 10 Four Horsemen - A Fairyland of Silver and Gold and The Weight of Metal - pages 445 - 473
Week Fourteen - April 13th - April 19th
Part Four - 10. Four Horsemen - Dragonflies in the Sun and 11. A Kettle of Grief - Dead Country and "Put the Fear of God into Them" and "You Are All Brave. You Are All Gentlemen" - pages 473-509
Week Fifteen - April 20th - April 26th
Part Four - 11. A Kettle of Grief - "On the Eve of Great Things" and 12. The Great Prize - Shaking Stars from the Heavens - pages 509-536
Week Sixteen - April 27th - May 3rd
Part Four - 12. The Great Prize - A Fifth Army Show - pages 536-555
Week Seventeen - May 4th - May 10th
Part Four - 12. The Great Prize - The Cuckoo's Song and Expulsion of the Barbarians - pages 555-576
Week Eighteen - May 11th - May 17th
Epilogue - pages 577-588
Week Nineteen - May 18th - 24th
Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts
The History Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Operation Mincemeat: How a Dead Man and a Bizarre Plan Fooled the Nazis and Assured an Allied Victory (other topics)Operation Mincemeat: How a Dead Man and a Bizarre Plan Fooled the Nazis and Assured an Allied Victory (other topics)
The Day of Battle: The War in Sicily and Italy, 1943-1944 (other topics)
The Day of Battle: The War in Sicily and Italy, 1943-1944 (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Ben Macintyre (other topics)Ben Macintyre (other topics)
Rick Atkinson (other topics)
Rick Atkinson (other topics)
For the week of January 26th - February 1st, we are reading Chapter 2- The Burning Shore - The Land of the Cyclops - The Loss of Irrecoverable Hours - "Tonight Wear White Pajamas" - "The Dark World is Not Far From Us" - pages 91-121 of the book-The Day of Battle: The War in Sicily and Italy 1943-1944 by Rick Atkinson.
The third week's reading assignment is:
Week Three- January 26th - February 1st, 2015
Chapter Two - The Burning Shore - The Land of the Cyclops - The Loss of Irrecoverable Hours - "Tonight Wear White Pajamas" - "The Dark World is Not Far From Us" - pages 91-121
We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.
This book is being kicked off on January 12th
We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle.
This weekly thread will be opened up on January 26th
There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.
Bentley will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Assisting Moderators Bryan, Kathy, Jerome and Jill.
Welcome,
~Jerome
TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL
REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.
Notes:
It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.
Citations:
If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.
If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Introduction thread:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Table of Contents and Syllabus:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Glossary:
Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.
Glossary - Part One- https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Glossary - Part Two - https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Glossary - Part Three - https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Bibliography:
There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Directions on how to participate in book discussions and how to follow the t's and c's - look at directives given for the discussion Landslide - What Do I Do Next?
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...