Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Discussion - Les Miserables
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Week 2 - Through the end of Fantine
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Interestingly in week 1 of our assignment, the topic of names was brought up, by Dawn. She noted in her post #21: by Dawn: "The poor are numerous and anonymous and forgotten. Their fortunes are so bleak that even relatives guard themselves against caring too much. Valjean went to prison for their sake, then he just forgot them.
Hugo names all the people who are important to society. He leaves the most vulnerable nameless and forgotten. "
I see in week 2 the topic of names is all important. Valjean/ Madeleine. When he is going through his torment of whether to turn himself in he says to himself "Stand up and say your name !" in chapter 3 A tempest in a human skull. Some may call this chapter Valjean's Gethsemane moment.
The other topic I found of most interest in this weeks readings was the question of free will versus Fate/Destiny/Providence. Is our fate/destiny already written? Can Valjean change his destiny? Must he accept who he is, Valjean, in order to live out his destiny or must he acknowledge/confess his sins, and thus announce his name, be fully redeemed in God's eye?
I liked the quote from book 6 Javert. "Do what we may to shape the mysterious stuff of which our lives are composed, the dark threads of our destiny will always re-emerge."
I noted the many religious comments in this weeks readings. Besides the obvious references, perhaps coincidently, the number three is prominent. (Bible- you will deny me three times- Christ dies at 3pm, the Trinity -- (you can google "the number three and the bible" but here is one link from Wiki
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Significanc...
Notice that Sister Simplice who lies for Valjean. She lies 3 times. Valjean falls asleep at 3 o'clock and dreams. In is than awakened by his servant telling him his carriage has arrived.
I also noticed that Fantine's life seems to mirror in a way that of Valjean. Through no real evil intent on her part, Fantine is crushed by society. Ill Fate seems to stalk her. Hate fills her soul. Then through the kindness of a stranger, she has a conversion. "...the knot of hatred dissolved within her..." Chapter XIII At the Police Post.
One thing that struck me as curious. In Book 7, Chapter 7, he shows his passport. There was a huge issue early in the book about his yellow passport and how devastating it was to have one, and then how he managed to get in to MsM without showing it because of the confusion at the time. Is this still the yellow passport he's showing now, and if so why is there no issue about it? Or has he forged or somehow gotten a new passport, and if so was that mentioned in the book and I missed it, or did it just sort of happen behind the scenes?
Alias Reader wrote: "Interestingly in week 1 of our assignment, the topic of names was brought up, by Dawn. She noted in her post #21: by Dawn: "The poor are numerous and anonymous and forgotten. Their fortunes ar..."
Thanks for alerting us to the biblical references, Alias. Sister Simplice lying three times is,of course, a deliberate echoing of the biblical passage where Peter denies Jesus three times after his arrest. I missed that.
Oh, and the name Madeleine is also derived from Mary Magdalene, the repentant sinner.
Everyman wrote: "One thing that struck me as curious. In Book 7, Chapter 7, he shows his passport. There was a huge issue early in the book about his yellow passport and how devastating it was to have one, and th..."I suppose that it's because he has adopted a new identity, Madeleine, who for all purposes is a respectable citizen, not an escaped convict. Hugo never explained how he managed to ditch his Valjean identity though. Apparently he just appeared in town as Madeleine and nobody bothered to check his identity. Or maybe he forged or stole a passport in Madeleine's name.
There was a fire the night he arrived in town; he rescued two children, and the story says that nobody asked to see his papers after that, but just took his word.
Peregrine wrote: "There was a fire the night he arrived in town; he rescued two children, and the story says that nobody asked to see his papers after that, but just took his word."Thanks, Peregrine. I've totally missed that. : }
I say Valjean's choice is not as stark as he makes it. The bad consequences he forsees--himself back in chains, his town returned to poverty--are far from certain, while the good consequence--freedom for the innocent--is. He's served his time for stealing bread and attempted escape. The only additional crime is robbing the Savoyard 8 years previously, and the victim can't be found so it's far from clear he could be convicted on that. Even if convicted, he has the resources for a good lawyer and can bring an army of character witnesses into the court. With all his good deeds, he could reasonably hope for mercy from the court, or even a pardon from the king. So why doesn't he see that as an option? Maybe because he doesn't trust the system that gave him four years in chains for stealing a loaf of bread.
Peregrine wrote: "There was a fire the night he arrived in town; he rescued two children, and the story says that nobody asked to see his papers after that, but just took his word."Yes, I got that, but where did the new passport, if it was a new one, come from that he could show later?
Sandybanks wrote: .oh, and the name Madeleine is also derived from Mary Magdalene, the repentant sinner."--------------------
Excellent ! I didn't catch that one.
Everyman: One thing that struck me as curious. In Book 7, Chapter 7, he shows his passport. There was a huge issue early in the book about his yellow passport ======================
Perhaps the "yellow Ticket" and the "identity Papers" mentioned in book 7 chapter 5 (I didn't see it mentioned in Chapter 7 ) are different things.
In book 7 chapter 5 it reads:
"Well, you see, when it comes to hiring post horses...Your honour has identity papers?
Yes.
Well, you can hire post horses but you still won't get to Arras before tomorrow."
Then the boy tells him the elderly woman has a gig he can hire.
So I don't think he ever showed anyone his identity papers.
Two questions from book 7 chapter 5--Why did Valjean refuse to tip the boy?
"It was the boy, the old woman's servant.
Monsieur, I'm the one who found the gig for you
Well?
You haven't given me anything
Open-handed through he normally was, he found this demand excessive and almost nauseating.
So that's what you want he said
You'll get nothing from me.
He whipped up his horse and drove on."
It seems he reverted back to his old way of thinking. Was it just because he was mad that the boy opened the way for him to continue his journey. Still.... it seems out of character with the new Valjean.
Same chapter.
--Why was the bread bitter tasting?
Is this a foreshadowing ? A reference to something else? Is it supposed to symbolize the bread he stole. Nothing will taste good for him, until he rights this wrong?
"His meal was served. He snatched up a piece of bread, swallowed a mouthful, then put it down and ate no more. Turning to a cater at the next table he said:
Why is the bread here so bitter?
Alias Reader wrote: "Why did Valjean refuse to tip the boy?"My take on this is that Valjean felt he has paid a lot to the old woman for the transportation, and since it is the old woman who got the money, it should perhaps be the old woman paying the boy some "commission".
Zeke wrote: "Selina--I do think you may have turned JVJ's decision around. "Zeke, thanks for your explanation. At the time of my post on this subject, I was reading the part before Valjean started his journey to Araras. Now, I am at the part when he arrived at Arras, and I begin to understand that Valjean is not aware of what God's will is. In fact, although he has made it to Arras, despite some obstacles along the way, he was still torn between whether to simply observe the trial or to turn himself in.
Zeke wrote: ".. whether he is accepting responsibility for his crimes...or he could be surrendering as an act of mercy to save the innocent accused"
I'll be on the lookout whether I could discern any clues to answer this question when I read the trial.
Erica wrote: "Are you thinking of some of JVJ's thoughts while he was attempting to get to trial? He was still unsure of himself even during the journey, so things like braking the axle on his cart, roads in poor condition, and nearly being excluded from the trial were events he referred to as "God's will" figuring that if God really didn't want him to get to the trial, he should listen (at least that's how I read it)."Erica, yes, I was focusing only on the part before Valjean departed for the trial. Thanks for your explanation. I agree with you on this point.
AliasReader: --Why did Valjean refuse to tip the boy?
Perhaps because he is so distracted with his dilemma that he overlooks what he would normally, and naturally, do?
Perhaps because he is so distracted with his dilemma that he overlooks what he would normally, and naturally, do?
Alias Reader wrote: "Perhaps the "yellow Ticket" and the "identity Papers" mentioned in book 7 chapter 5 (I didn't see it mentioned in Chapter 7 ) are different things. "In both the Rose translation and the Fahnestock translation, early in Book 7 Chapter 7 (the Traveller Arrives and Provides for his Return) at the post office where he books the return trip on the mail coach he shows his passport. Fahnestock: "The landlady took him to the post office; he showed his passport and asked if there were some way to return that same night..." Rose: The hostess took him to the office; he showed his passport and asked if it was possible for him to go back..."
In the Rose translation, Bk7 Ch5 the term is passport again: "It's just that, you see, there's something that has to be said about taking post horses...Does Monsieur have his passport?" Presumably one can hire regular horses without showing a passport, but to hire post horses, that is to say government ones, one has to show a passport.
I just don't understand how the yellow passport that made such trouble early in the book suddenly either isn't yellow any more, or isn't a problem any more.
Rose has a note in the first time we hear of the yellow passport: "Passports were required for internal travel in France at the time; Jean Valjean's passport marks hi as a convict even though he has served his sentence."
He's still a past convict in at time of his journey.
Ah well. Maybe I'm worrying about a detail unnecessarily. But since so much was made of the yellow passport, it surprised me to suddenly find it of no significance.
Alias Reader wrote: --Why was the bread bitter tasting?Is this a foreshadowing ? A reference to something else? Is it supposed to symbolize the bread he stole. Nothing will taste good for him, until he rights this wrong?
"His meal was served. He snatched up a piece of bread, swallowed a mouthful, then put it down and ate no more. Turning to a cater at the next table he said:
Why is the bread here so bitter?
Perhaps he is thinking of "the bitter bread of banishment" (Richard II, 3.1).
Everyman wrote: "Alias Reader wrote: "Perhaps the "yellow Ticket" and the "identity Papers" mentioned in book 7 chapter 5 (I didn't see it mentioned in Chapter 7 ) are different things. "In both the Rose translat..."
He has destroyed his yellow passport. He has somehow gotten hold of a regular passport for his new life. Everyone had to have a passport, but not all passports were alike. He had a forged one, and of course he did not forge a yellow one.
Laurele wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Alias Reader wrote: "Perhaps the "yellow Ticket" and the "identity Papers" mentioned in book 7 chapter 5 (I didn't see it mentioned in Chapter 7 ) are different things. "In both ..."
I suppose that's what happened. He destroyed his yellow passport, showed up in town, said that his papers were lost in the fire, and got new papers issued for his new Madeleine identity. Nobody bothered to check.
Sandybanks wrote: "Laurele wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Alias Reader wrote: "Perhaps the "yellow Ticket" and the "identity Papers" mentioned in book 7 chapter 5 (I didn't see it mentioned in Chapter 7 ) are different thi..."After all, M. Madeleine could hardly use a passport with Jean Valjean written on it.
Laurele: After all, M. Madeleine could hardly use a passport with Jean Valjean written on it. -------------------------------------
:) I did't think of that simple answer.
Though since Hugo doesn't seem to worry about including evry last detail, he could have devoted a sentence or two for a topic that was made so much of as Everyman noted.
Erica Wrote: and nearly being excluded from the trial were events he referred to as "God's will" figuring that if God really didn't want him to get to the trial, he should listen (at least that's how I read it)." ------------------------
Did you notice the sudden change from the sentiment that it is fate or God's will and he is not in control, to he is in control of his fate?
Book 7 chapter 5
"So he was in no danger. This was a dark moment in his life, but one that he could live through. When all was said, his fate, however ugly it might prove to be, was in his own hands; he was its master. He clung to that thought."
#68 Everyman: In both the Rose translation and the Fahnestock translation, early in Book 7 Chapter 7 (the Traveller Arrives and Provides for his Return) at the post office where he books the return trip on the mail coach he shows his passport. Fahnestock: "The landlady took him to the post office; he showed his passport and asked if there were some way to return that same night..." Rose: The hostess took him to the office; he showed his passport and asked if it was possible for him to go back..."In the Rose translation, Bk7 Ch5 the term is passport again: "It's just that, you see, there's something that has to be said about taking post horses...Does Monsieur have his passport?" Presumably one can hire regular horses without showing a passport, but to hire post horses, that is to say government ones, one has to show a passport.
------------------------
The word passport was left out of the Norman Denny translation if I am looking at the same paragraph as you are.
I have:
"The landlady entered.
Will Monsieur be stopping for the night? Will he require dinner?
He shook his head.
But the ostler say that your horse is tired out. It needs a least two days' rest.
He considered. This is a posting-inn, I believe. There's a post office?
Yes, Monsieur
She took him to the office, where he learned that there was a place vacant on the mail leaving that night for Montreuil-sur-mer, the seat beside the mailman. He reserved it and paid. The clerk warned him that it would leave punctually at one o'clock in the morning.
Post 52Interestingly in week 1 of our assignment, the topic of names was brought up, by Dawn. She noted in her post #21: by Dawn:
"The poor are numerous and anonymous and forgotten. Their fortunes are so bleak that even relatives guard themselves against caring too much. Valjean went to prison for their sake, then he just forgot them.
Hugo names all the people who are important to society. He leaves the most vulnerable nameless and forgotten. "
I see in week 2 the topic of names is all important. Valjean/ Madeleine. When he is going through his torment of whether to turn himself in he says to himself "Stand up and say your name !" in chapter 3 A tempest in a human skull. Some may call this chapter Valjean's Gethsemane moment
--------------------------------
I forgot to add to the various names that Valjean is know by. We all know it, but I wanted to add it to our name discussion.
It is his prison numbers. When a society wants to strip you of your personhood you become a number.
24601
and on his recapture
9430
Alias Reader wrote: "Post 52Interestingly in week 1 of our assignment, the topic of names was brought up, by Dawn. She noted in her post #21: by Dawn:
"The poor are numerous and anonymous and forgotten. Their for..."
Good stuff, Ali.
Alias Reader wrote: "Post 52Interestingly in week 1 of our assignment, the topic of names was brought up, by Dawn. She noted in her post #21: by Dawn:
"The poor are numerous and anonymous and forgotten. Their for..."
A prisoner is a person with no name, and if something happens to him he is just statistics. Names are important. I wonder what name(s) Valjean will use later.
Alias Reader wrote: "Erica Wrote: and nearly being excluded from the trial were events he referred to as "God's will" figuring that if God really didn't want him to get to the trial, he should listen (at least that's h..."Actually, it seems to be the opposite. He thinks about how his fate is in his own hands at the beginning of the journey to Arras--so saying because Javert and everyone else believes Champmathieu is the convict, and thus the real JVJ is not in danger by going to the trial of his own free will, even though he's still unsure about it--but as soon as all his efforts to replace the broken axle appear to have failed, Hugo writes this:
"He felt an immense joy. It was clear that providence was involved. It was providence that had broken the wheel of the tilbury and stopped him on his way. He had not given in to the first obstacle; he had just exerted all possible efforts to continue his journey...if he went no step further, it no longer concerned him. Now it was not his fault; it was not the act of his conscience but the act of providence."
And then, as soon as the woman with the cabriolet shows up:
"He shuddered. The fatal hand had closed on him again."
So at first he tells himself he's doing this by choice, but it seems that the closer he gets to the trial itself, the more clear it is that something else (God, or fate) is directing him instead. But I think what he's really afraid of isn't so much the thought of going back to prison, but the thought of having to make a conscious choice to go back. It would have been much easier if God/fate didn't allow him to get to Arras/the trial was already over/he couldn't get in because it was full, or even if God/fate had made the journey almost effortless or caused him to be caught by Javert, but instead he is faced with the decision, even up to the last minute, of whether to allow an innocent man be condemned (the "easy" thing) or get to the trial at all costs and admit that he is really the convict (what becomes increasingly more obvious as the "right" thing). He sets off to Arras, I think, just to see which way God/fate will guide him, but in the end, ironically, his "fate" is to make the choice himself, and there's only one choice he can make.
AliasReader said Hugo could have supplied a sentence or two to the yellow paper/new passport business. I agree, and it's not like another sentence or two would have made much difference in the length of the book...:)
Laurele wrote: "He has destroyed his yellow passport. He has somehow gotten hold of a regular passport for his new life. Everyone had to have a passport, but not all passports were alike. He had a forged one, and of course he did not forge a yellow one. "Is this your assumption (I'm not saying an unreasonable one, but an assumption), or is there some support for it in the text that I missed?
Alias Reader wrote: "The word passport was left out of the Norman Denny translation if I am looking at the same paragraph as you are. "Interesting. Yes, that's the paragraph I'm looking at.
I don't suppose anybody has the actual French text and can check for us what Hugo actually said?
The Electronic Text at the University of Virginia site, which can be found here, also says "passport." This is yet another translator, Isabel F. Hapgood. This is also the translation which Gutenberg uses.
Here is an abridged copy in French, don't know whether it is complete enough to be useful in this contxt. I haven't found an unabridged copy in French online; maybe a better searcher than I, like Laurel, can find one.
Everyman wrote: "Laurele wrote: "He has destroyed his yellow passport. He has somehow gotten hold of a regular passport for his new life. Everyone had to have a passport, but not all passports were alike. He had a ..."Just logic. New name, new passport.
I have called in a French copy from the library in St Boniface, Winnipeg's French quarter. It'll take a few days to get here; I'll post the relevant section when I get the book.
Everyman wrote: "Alias Reader wrote: "The word passport was left out of the Norman Denny translation if I am looking at the same paragraph as you are. "Interesting. Yes, that's the paragraph I'm looking at.
I..."
I have the entire French text on my Kindle. The word passeport is used twenty times. In the beginning of the book it is passeport jaune, 'yellow passport." After that it is just passeport. In 1.7.7 he shows his passport. A passeport jaune is a particular kind of passport. All yellow passports are passports, but not all passports are yellow.
Oh, okay, thanks, Laurele. Sort of like moving from the card catalogue to an online one!
Hi all,I finally caught up to this point in the reading last night.
I have to say I am really enjoying this book. I love Hugo's ability to find a phrase to describe a person or idea that just resonates.
some of my favorites
"The malicious have a dark happiness."
"The poor cannot go to the far end of their rooms or the far end of their lives except by continually bending more and more."
"Diamonds are found only in the dark bowels of the earth; truths are found only in the depth of thought."
As to whether JVJ made the right choice by turning himself in I have to think he did. Partly because that's the choice I believe is the right one and partly because I think if he had let an innocent man go too prison in his stead the guilt would have eaten at him. The bishop released him from the guilt of stealing the silver by charging him to make something of himself. He spent a lot of time trying to find Petit Gervais to repay the money he stole but there would have been no way to repay the theft of another man's life.
The consequences of theft/robbery seem to be a recurring theme so far.
okay that's my two cents. On to Waterloo.
Eliza wrote: "I have to say I am really enjoying this book. I love Hugo's ability to find a phrase to describe a person or idea that justresonates. some of my favorites ..."
Glad you caught up, Eliza!
I'm finding the same thing. I'm marking lines every couple of pages. It keeps me alert reading -- I'll read a long passage which seems to go on forever, then bam, he slips in one of those zingers that just hits the right synapses.
A couple of stones for the soup. Seems to me that Bienvenu represents the capacity for good in all and he responds to that capacity in others. He does not act as an instrument of the Church. He has chosen to act independently, giving up the trappings, remuneration, and even the dogma of the Church, while continuing in the role of priest. He ministers to the sick and dying, but without judgement or personal gain. He is not an advocate for dealing with the causes of social injustice, but offers compassion to those with whom his path crosses. I don't see Bienvenu as a Christ figure, but a white sheet against which the shadows of the "justice" system and purveyors of truth and goodness play. Even as Javert's "shadow" plays against the whiteness of Bienvenu, flecks of whiteness are evident in his being--his absolute pursuit of truth--even if in error. Perhaps Bienvenu's purpose in the novel is to personify the glimmer of goodness in everyone. I think others have alluded to this idea, although I can't find the reference at the moment.
Susan wrote: "A couple of stones for the soup. Seems to me that Bienvenu represents the capacity for good in all and he responds to that capacity in others. He does not act as an instrument of the Church. He ..."Susan, that's beautiful!
Very interesting Susan. This idea of a "glimmer of goodness in everyone" seems to me a good template against which to measure these characters. You found one in Javert; I'll be interested to see if anyone finds one in the Tenardiers.
In the section describing the convent there is a passage that I think is relevant to this idea even though it isn't about Bienvenue specifically. This is Hugo speaking with what I marked in my book "Emersonian."
We have a duty: to work on the human soul, to defend mystery as opposed to miracle, to worship the incomprehensible and reject the absurd, to accept of the inexplicable only what is necessary, to clean up faith, to remove superstition from on top of religion; to rid God of worms."
In the section describing the convent there is a passage that I think is relevant to this idea even though it isn't about Bienvenue specifically. This is Hugo speaking with what I marked in my book "Emersonian."
We have a duty: to work on the human soul, to defend mystery as opposed to miracle, to worship the incomprehensible and reject the absurd, to accept of the inexplicable only what is necessary, to clean up faith, to remove superstition from on top of religion; to rid God of worms."
"Now, people do not read stupidities with impunity".
(on the effect of reading trashy novels)
Book 4, Chap. 2
"For prying into any human affairs, none are equal to those whom it does not concern".
Book 5, Chap. 8
"Curiosity is a kind of a glutton. To see is to devour".
Book 5, Chap. 13
"To see a thousand objects for the first time and for the last time, what can be deeper and more melancholy? To travel is to be born and to die at every instant".
Book 7, Chap. 5
"...he had the face of a man of business and the air of a rogue. They sometimes go together".
Book 7 Chap. 10