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The Winter's Tale
Old School Classics, Pre-1915
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The Winter's Tale - Spoilers
I read this a few months ago--I can't say it really appealed to me like many of his others have. I don't know that you can really call this a comedy, but I have noticed that I've had a much harder time getting into the comedies than the tragedies/histories (except Midsummer Night's Dream
I finished this a few days ago. Meh. I didn't see the Clown as a clown. And Autolycus sold his songs? Then when the Tale wrapped up, everyone was suddenly happy? At least the death toll was lower than most of Shakespeare's works.
My review from 2016. linkI thought I had read it before. Nope. I will be rereading and learning later this month. This time I will have the benefit of referencing
Shakespeare After All by Marjorie Garber. She has some videos of lectures posted to YouTube as well.
I am watching this productionof The Winter's Tale on YouTube. These actors are experienced and work in a casual forum--an outdoor production. For those who want a more polished version, there is another production listed on YouTube.
What a treat it is to watch the bard's plays enacted. The last time--the first time--I read The Winter's Tale, there were no full-length productions of the play. Looking forward to watching the second half.
Cynda wrote: "I am watching this productionof The Winter's Tale on YouTube. These actors are experiemmced and forum casual--an outdoor production. For those who want a more polished version, there is another p..."
Cynda, thanks for the post and link. I have been looking for productions of this play.
As far as the play, I'm feeling like a lot of you are, sorta meh. I don't like the disjointed and uneven feel of the story, especially from Act 3 to Act 4. Seems very clunky and it wants to be both a tragedy and comedy at the same time. I'm nearing the end of the play and currently in Act 5, but I'm a little underwhelmed right now.
I finished today and am in agreement with your comments, Franky. That section from Act 3 to 4 was exactly where it started to go south for me. Thank you for the link, Cynda! It always helps to see a production. Now if I could see the Dench/Branagh version, I bet my opinion would do a 180. ;-)
I am glad to be in company among others who also appreciate that a play is meant to be watched :)Kathleen, if you do find the Dench/Branagh version, even for a fee, will you let me know? It will just be one less run to the Mexican restaurant next door. Fair trade.
This play is a romance--not romantic in 19th-century Romantic Age way or more current times love-and-romance way--but a Medieval/Early Modern Period outside-of-time way. So the disjoint can be one way of indicating outside-of-time-ness. Since The Winter's Tale is a Shakespeare play, the disjoint will be intentional, not a flaw as it might be when I write some little narrative piece. (Not to cut on myself, but to compare.)
Shakespeare, like many writers, works out issues in his writing. Here: Marriage. Those who have read the play The Taming of the Shrew or who have watched an enacted production--particularly the Elizabeth Taylor/Richard Burton production--have seen when the husband is saner than the wife. Here in the Winter's Tale, the wife is saner than the husband. A switch of sanity levels. How do sanity levels and gender affect a marriage?
Marjorie Garber who has a full professorship at Harvard and who has written Shakespeare After All has posted some videos of lectures on You Tube. Hereis lecture on The Winter's Tale. It has a slow start, but I have hopes of it getting better by the end.I bought a used copy of her Shakespeare After All for about 20USD. I have used it to read several of Shakespeaee's plays. Definitely Helpful.
Cynda, I love your "outside-of-time-ness" idea. I follow what you're saying about a disjoint bringing about this kind of feel, but I'd be curious whether you think he succeeded in that objective?And what an interesting point about the switch of sanity levels. I think for me, one of the problems may have been that it didn't feel believable. Not the wife is saner than the husband part, which is very believable! :-) But I just didn't get a feel for Leontes' insanity. It seemed like he just up and did this rash thing. Then, instead of him pacing the halls, spouting lines of intense suffering over his insane decision (like in Macbeth)--which could have been fabulous--we get this weird, partially comedic interlude that Franky was talking about.
Me either, Kathleen, did I get a feel for Leontes' insanity. The feel that you write of I think refers to a backstory. Usually in Shakespeare you might have gotten in the opening act but sometimes elsewhere an explanation for why the focal character is the way he is. In Hamlet, for example, most of Act 1 is about the Ghost of Old Hamlet. Young Hamlet's love for Old Hamlet determines many of Hamlet's actions in the rest of the play.
I decided to seek out an audio version in the hopes of having a better reading experience, since I've not read any Shakespeare in probably decades. And, it's not the first time I've heard recently that "a play is meant to be watched, not read".I found a great production from the Arkangel Shakespeare Collection published by Penquin Classics. It's really a great dramatization, with a full cast, including Ciaran Hinds, Eileen Atkins and Sir John Gielgud. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkange...
I've nearly finished, but will listen at least once again to really get a feel for it. Besides, that it's quite compelling and I'm enjoying listening to it.
In other Shakespeare plays, we the audience have not only the aid of the backstory, we also.often/always have the aid of a sililoquy. How much easier would it be to understand what happens in The Winter's Tale
if we the audience knew that infidelity of the history of either King Leontes' family or Queen Hermione's. If only King Leontes would hurl an insult at his queen, telling her that her that she is just like her sister or just like his own sister then we the audience would have something to ground ourselves with.
if we the audience overheard King Leontes talk with himself, telling himself and us what he really really thinks. We just don't know what drives Leontes or what keeps driving him. Maybe just maybe--no indication in the play--that Leontes and Polixenes have engaged in sexual rivalry when they were young men.
But we the audience know so little, and still we are attracted to the story.
As far as comedic aspects. Sure why not. When someone gets an idea into their head and takes irrational action, to some extent we laugh. Years later we laugh even more. (Remember that time when you lost it and went bersko on . . .)Just this. Little in Shakespeare is just this or just that, easily boxed and labelled. Even when speaking of genres. In Hamlet, Polonius says what might be expected of the actors who have come to Elsinore:
The best actors in the world, either for tragedy, comedy, history, pastoral, pastoral-comical, historical-pastoral, tragical-historical, tragical-comical-historical-pastoral, scene indivisible, or poem unlimited. . . .I smile when reading the part I emboldened.
As to your question--Does it work this disjointed play--I think it does.
I am thinking of an overlapping diptych. To separate the two paintings/plays would limit each, limit the power of what the two do together.
I am thinking of a trilogy--or a bilogy (made up word)--like Henry IV, Part 1 and Henry IV, Part 2. The momentum might be lost. Would too easily be lost.
I am thinking of stories I and others have told, stories that change tracks suddenly. Here: Husband went crazy with jealousy. He kills her. . . . Or so he thinks (a cliffhanger moment) but she hides away for a number of years and gives her disrespectful husband to come to a new realization. Now that's graceful.
I do not think a play is the best way to present the story. But the story itself is a great story. Shakespeare who wrote sonnets, long poems, and plays decided that this story fit the form of play best.
English proto-novels were coming into being shortly after Shakespeare died. So the episodic novel that might have been a better format for The Winter's Tale was still a thing of the future.
The play may have been the best format available to use.
Brenda only once I think did I hear a play enacted, an American 20th-century play. Used to be years ago that recorded live performances provided the basis for audio cassettes, the precursor to audio CDs which were precursors to audiobooks. We still have a good number of audio CDs at the local library, but none of the cassettes, I think.Did you enjoy your audio read?
Cynda, it was becoming apparent I was not going to fit in a physical read, so I was happy to find the audio. It was really well done which made it engaging, so for a newbie to Shakespeare it worked well. Yes, I did enjoy it thank you. Now that I’ve a sense of the story I want to go through again for a better understanding.I’m not sure I’ve listened to a play before, but have listened to many “old-time” radio shows which would be in the same vein I think.
I used to read CD audio books all the time, now my car has only Bluetooth.
Glad to hear it Brenda. So much of understanding Shakespeare's plays is finding the tools that work for you :)
Reading Act 2 and 3Comparing/Contrasting the Marriages of
Leontes and Hermione
&
Antigonus and Paulina
_______________________
1. No Partnership/Partnership
Hermione does not have partnership with Leontes.
Even though Hermione knows how to approach Polixenes, she stays back, not giving her husband the eye or the nudge that let's him know that she knows how get Polixenes to stay.
In contrast, Paulina leads in the marriage and Antigonus follows. He is proud of his wife's commanding presence. In Act 2, Scene 3, approx lines 50-52, Antigonus says:
La you now, you hear!
When she take the rein I let her run,
But she'll not stumble.
2. Exclusion/Inclusion
Hermione is left to her own devices. When Polixenes agrees.to stay, Leontes sends her off to walk the garden with their guest. She dkes express hope that Leontes will join her and Polixenes. Leontes has no intention to join garden walk.
Paulina is the one in the middle of things, including and excluding. She includes First Lord and Antigonus in an assumptive way, assuming that when she speaks that she speaks, her words direct: In Act 2, Scene 3, approx line 27, Paulina says: Nay, rather, good my lords, be second to me.
Conclusions.
Hermione is treated by Leontes as a cypher of a woman. So even when she tells truth in three speeches in Act 3, Scene 2 the king cannot hear or understand her. It is as though he were hearing wahh-wahh-wahh. (Think of the teacher in Peanuts cartoons.)
Even though King Leontes wonders out loud why Antigonus cannot/will not control his wife Paulina, both Paulina and Antigonus know that they both appreciate her bold spirit.
Rhetorical Comment.Paulina is heard by Leontes but refuses to agree with her. She has not developed the art of argument in the way Hermione has. So even though Paulina is heard and reluctantly respected some, she can cannot be effective in persuasion.
Kathleen, perhaps I have found an answer to your question about the comic aspect. In the introductory essay to The Winter's Tale, David Bevington says that this play has two halves: bleak comedy and comic romance and that overall this play is a tragicomedy.
Kathleen and Franky, my new Shakespeare guru Marjorie Garber explains the disjoint or gap in time in her book Shakespeare After All: Shakespeare the playwright here returns to the awkward device, used in Pericles, of bisecting his play with a major gap in time. By now it is clear that the pattern of Shakespearean romance requires a mature second generation, a marriage and a redemptive union--hence the need for many years to pass between the original act of disruption and the final consensus.
Ah, interesting, Cynda. So the time passing both deepens the original wrong and allows the healing. Good thing we don't have to wait for a generation to pass today! :-/I suppose comedy is about timing, and maybe the timing was off for me?
I do love your comparison of the couples though, Cynda. Very interesting about how Paulina can show her strength, but Hermione must be cunning.
Kathleen when I want to approach Shakespeare's sense of humor, I prefer to watch stage productions by Royal Shakespeare Company or Shakespeare's Globe. I have found a few productions on YouTube.Shakespeare described how he wanted clowns to play their parts. In Hamlet, we can see his instructions to clowns.
Stunning trailer to The Winter's Tale. Shows elements of being outside of time and outside of culture.
Kathleen, the thing about Shakespeare's humor: It often seems funnier when quoted later. Lines that were not presented as funny or humorous within the play seem to be empowering or apt or funny later, out of context.And then there are the Shakespearean actors who can be humorous and serious at the same time. Particularly Mark Rylance. He has acted in various play at Shakespeare's Globe, a few which can be seen on You Tube.
Okay. I have questions for you all.What do you make of Paulina's seeing clearly the king and holding him accountable?
What do you make of Shakespeare's writing of a highly imperfect monarch when he Shakespeare wrote plays for monarchs and was part of the King's Men (King James' special troupe of actors).
What do you make of Shakespeare of this imperfect king who mistreated his wife when a English king--Henry VIII--had fewer than a hundred years before had divorced and killed multiple wives?
Shakespeare sometimes used throw-away titles, non-titles as titles.
The Winter's Tale is not really a title. It is a genre. What can you tell us the group about winter tales?
What is the significance of pastoral scenes? If you have read any/all other Late Shakespeare plays/The Romances, perhaps you can tell us about how the pastoral is an important element in tis The Winter's Tale play.
Let's all talk.
Cynda wrote: "Kathleen, the thing about Shakespeare's humor: It often seems funnier when quoted later. Lines that were not presented as funny or humorous within the play seem to be empowering or apt or funny lat..."Ha! And this made me laugh. :-) It's actually very profound though--thank you Cynda. I think there is something to what you say, and maybe even something beyond Shakespeare. I can just picture Mark Rylance doing exactly what you're saying! I only know him from Wolf Hall, but know he's done lots of Shakespeare. I will definitely check youtube. He is amazing.
Excellent tip, Cynda. Thank you!
Also familiarity with the text also helps. The more I read the plays, the more the difference between what they say and what their character is (The Winter's Play Act 4, Scene 3).
the more the sound and meaning merge
and make me delight in the language.
. . . . .
Franky wrote: "Cynda wrote: "I am watching this productionof The Winter's Tale on YouTube. These actors are experiemmced and forum casual--an outdoor production. For those who want a more polished version, ther..."
Franky you started the convo and Kathleen asked me a intriguing question, basically how to recognize the humor in Shakespeare's plays. Is that about right?
Great question that I partially answered in message 27, partially in message 30 and now in message 31.
In this particular play The Winter's Tale, there is an answer I think you both might particularly like, as I do. LINK.
You might already know this Franky, but Kathleen and I are trying to catch up with you. This is the answer I was beginning to suspect. This confirms and informs my understanding of the humor in The Winter's Tale.
I just finished this play and I also didn't like it that much. I really enjoyed the first 3 acts, but the rest were kind of confusing for me. Also this is only the second play I have read from Shakespeare (I also read Julius Cesar last month) so I am not very familiar with his works and I don't think I can understand it and appreciate it how I should. One of the best things I liked was the character of Paulina. I liked how brave and bold she was, and how she wasn't afraid to tell the king what was on her mind.I look forward to reading more of Shakespeare's plays in the future.
Jesus wrote: "I just finished this play and I also didn't like it that much. I really enjoyed the first 3 acts, but the rest were kind of confusing for me. Also this is only the second play I have read from Shak..."Hi Jesus. Glad you stopped by.
Since you liked Paulina's actions, you mightbe pleased to know that she is the hero. So you understood who the hero is.
The "downhill part " is where unseen things are happening.
• Paulina is caring for Queen Hermione.
• King Leontes is pining for Queen Hermione.
What you do see is children grown up who are preparing return to/arrive in Sicily. The grown children help the discovery and healing aspects of the play. They are the family rescuers.
Jesus, I hope you take the opportunity to read over what we the other group members have to comment, ask, and answer, and discover here. We help each other.
Cynda wrote: "Kathleen and Franky, my new Shakespeare guru Marjorie Garber explains the disjoint or gap in time in her book Shakespeare After All: Shakespeare the playwright here r..."
Cynda, thanks. That's fascinating. I guess it puts things into a little more perspective. Thanks for the Shakespeare resource :)
My pleasure Franky.:)
Kathleen wrote: "Cynda, I love your "outside-of-time-ness" idea. I follow what you're saying about a disjoint bringing about this kind of feel, but I'd be curious whether you think he succeeded in that objective?..."
Right. After both reading your comment and living with the play for a bit now--second read and first discussion for me--I refine my saying Leontes is insane to saying he had a bout of insanity. And he paid dearly . . . . He lost his heir and wife.
I had wondered why there was no backstory, nothing explaining why Leontes had gone insane. Because it was a inexplicable bout of insanity. I think all of us who have reached maturity have had one bout of insanity. (May it never be as bad as Leontes' bout.) Remember Shakespeare was mature when he wrote this play. He would have known about having had an inexplicable bout of insanity
That's a very interesting take, Cynda. I like the idea of Shakespeare looking back on his life and realizing not everything can be justified with a backstory!
Jesus wrote: "I just finished this play and I also didn't like it that much. I really enjoyed the first 3 acts, but the rest were kind of confusing for me. Also this is only the second play I have read from Shak..."Thank you Cynda. I have read all of the comments in this thread and I agree with you, a play is meant to be watched! Sometimes I make the mistake of reading a play as I would a novel. But I always try to imagine it being played in a theather, and it helps.
Jesus wrote: "Jesus wrote: "I just finished this play and I also didn't like it that much. I really enjoyed the first 3 acts, but the rest were kind of confusing for me. Also this is only the second play I have ..."My pleasure Jesus. My friends are generous in helping me to deepen my understanding of literature.
Cynda wrote: "I am watching this productionof The Winter's Tale on YouTube. These actors are experienced and work in a casual forum--an outdoor production. For those who want a more polished version, there is ..."
I looked at both of those. I didn't like the outdoor one because they put Time at the beginning which seems wrong. The other one leaves out big swaths of dialog.
Glynn, thanks for joining us. I am glad that you are talking about the productions. You make a true comment. Productions vary and inform the Shakespeare plays we read. The plays of the Early Modern Period including Shakespeare's were owned not by the playwright but by the theatrical company. A theatrical company freely altered plays and sold altered play copies which then were altered by the companies who had bought from the original company. So Shakespeare plays were not sacred in the way that copyright laws make writing legal-sacred.
After Shakespeare's death his friends, people we would consider colleagues or fellow artists, put together what is called the Folio. The friends strove to standardize the plays. At least we literate folk have a way through the Folio to have opportunity to remember Shakespeare's plays.
When studying Shakespeare at university--just a general course intended for English majors--we used what is commonly called the Riverside, a scholarly anthology of Shakespeare's plays (and perhaps some/all his poems). At the end of each play was a section of variations. There could be found how different acknowledged-as-worthy texts read. (Other than the Folio, I have little memory of what qualified to be discussed in that section.)
My point: Shakespeare text flexes and accommodates alterations.
Hope this helps.
Cynda wrote: "Glynn, thanks for joining us. I am glad that you are talking about the productions. You make a true comment. Productions vary and inform the Shakespeare plays we read. The plays of the Early Mode..."
Thank you Cynda, this was very informative and eye-opening! I majored in English in college and read most of the Shakespeare plays but I remember little about them.
I finished the play today and thought it was overall ok but not one I'd recommend to someone who has never read or seen a Shakespeare play. One good thing was I thought it portrayed the women as very strong.
Also, I saw your post about "Shakespeare After All." It sounds like a really good book and I'm thinking of splurging and buying a copy (the kindle version from Amazon.)
No. I completely agree. A comedy is a better place to start. The group selected, and I came to reread and help out, knowing it would be a challenge. I'm glad you're here, too, Glynn.Yeah, if you buy "Shakespeare After All," I would be glad to see how that book works out for you.
🎭🎭🎭
I know this is supposed to be a comedy romance. But the unjust killing of Prince Mamillus is a tragedy. Plus I don't think it was ever given justice, right?
Richard this play The Winter's Take is usuay understood to be a tradgicomedy. . . . .Not all what we call wrongful deaths were considered so, and not all such deaths were pursued. Remind of which Act and Scene you are reading, so I can get to the part of the play you are reading.
And good to see you here too Richard.
Have borrowed from the libraryThe Gap of Time by Jeanette Winterson.
I do not remember the last time I read a retelling of a story--and not one which is set in different time. Because I want to read more Jeanette Winterson's books, I thought to rry this one.
I just finished the tale and I am now reading the comments of the play in “ Shakespeare after all”I will need some time to connect all the themes and deeper meanings. I am very impressed by the genius of Shakespeare.
Thanks for all the interesting comments and suggestions Cynda.
I will definitely read your comments on “the gap of time” which I hesitate of buying.
Also viewing the play is on the list of my next initiatives
Wim nice to see you here. I have just received my copy of Gap of Time. I decided to buy it, so that I can read it when I have a moment to breathe and read more comfortably. (January is busy, so maybe January, maybe February.)Hope you and Glynn--he's reading Shakespeare After All too--tell us what you think of the chapter or the book or Garber's explanations, something. I am so grateful for the help of Professor Garber.
Catching up on Classics (and lots more!)
Books mentioned in this topic
The Illustrated Stratford Shakespeare (other topics)Shakespeare After All (other topics)
The Gap of Time (other topics)
Shakespeare After All (other topics)
The Winter's Tale (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Jeanette Winterson (other topics)Marjorie Garber (other topics)
Marjorie Garber (other topics)
Marjorie Garber (other topics)
Marjorie Garber (other topics)
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