Fans of Norah Lofts discussion
How Far to Bethlehem?
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How Far to Bethlehem Group Read 2020
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Ephorus and Josodad have the same problem, don't they? As Ephorus realised, in time to save Josodad from alcoholism, at least.They have both come up against, and been unable to deal with, the fact that those we love are free to make their own choices and those choices may take them away from us.
Are they beginning to come to terms with this after what happens to them in Bethlehem? I think they are.
In response to Djo's comment, I've always supposed that Gaspar was from some place like Afghanistan and was an Indo-European.
Funnily enough, I wondered about this too. The book mentioned how far Jexal was from Bethlehen, and it put Jexal roughly in Iraq, and if the 500 came from the North, that could place them in Southern Russia, hence the blue eyes.
I don't think it pays to enquire too closely into where Gaspar and his people came from! If, as seems likely, they are the same horse-based nomadic people that sent a red-haired, blue-eyed maiden to Ahasuerus (in Esther) then they must be from somewhere in the Persian Empire; but their ultimate origin, as far as HFTB goes, must be somewhere like Mongolia, because that is the explanation for Gaspar and Melchior having a common language.And I must say, that's something else that doesn't bear looking at too closely, because how likely is it that two people would really be able to understand each other just because their ancestors did, hundreds of years ago and now thousands of miles apart? English-speakers today don't understand German, in spite of being practically next door and having been in close contact over the centuries; in fact, they don't even understand Chaucer's English when hearing it spoken and have enough trouble understanding the Scots sometimes. I just don't believe that a Korean would have a language in common with, say, a Kazakhstani.
We have to forgive NL, because Gaspar and Melchior do need to be able to communicate somehow, but it does take quite a bit of suspension of disbelief!
I've just been looking up the Huns online to check a feeling that it was they whom Gaspar's people were based on: and apparently there is a (disputed) theory that they originally came from Mongolia. I was particularly interested in a quote from an Ancient Roman author, Ammianus, who says they
"feed upon ... the half-raw flesh of any sort of animal. I say half-raw, because they give it a kind of cooking by placing it between their own thighs and the backs of their horses."just as Gaspar's people are described as doing. ( link). So my guess is that they are indeed based on the Huns.
Peggy wrote: "Just wanted to mention in this book folder, we have a thread that we started 7 years ago that is dedicated to points about the journey if anyone wants to take a look at it."Yes, this is the part that deals with Jexal and Gaspar , so interesting, thank you Peggy
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Jenny wrote: "I've been thinking about the three ... well, what do we call them? The traditional title is 'Three Wise Men' or 'Three Kings' but none of them is a king (even Gaspar rejects the title) and are any ..."I like your analysis of the Three Travellers Jenny. I think they all have wisdom of a sort. Melchior's is fairly obvious , though he has virtually no social wisdoms at all!
Gaspar certainly has military strategy skills and perhaps some managerial and common sense ones but none at all when it comes to intimacy and women ... I think he will learn fairly fast though, if he marries Ilya, she won't stand for too much patriarchal nonsense despite her being used to it , for eg her 15 year old brother announcing he would kill her rather than see her 'dishonoured' by marriage to a man of lesser rank than Gaspar
Hard to know with Balthazar, his entire life has been so blighted. But he has great intelligence and adaptability, also emotional depth and profound compassion . And of course great commercial and financial abilities. I love Balthazar - his final, amazing decision is so admirable - I don't know that I think it is entirely a good or sensible thing but he feels the need to do it for his soul.
I think I feel sorry for Eunice ( and of course Ephorus ) Eunice's tragedy is more minor and domestic and less epic than his, but still , her bad temper and general cussedness all stem from the longing for love . I like to think after The Birth, things might go well, or at at least better, for them.
Just another little thought , the scene where Senya fails so miserably in her fortune telling is, for the young man, because he was hoping for a relationship with a local man and the thought of going away to be a soldier terrified him. But we see from the scene with Vatinius and Quintillius at the barracks just outside Bethlehem, that he could have been a soldier and still have easily found a love. NL regularly has these little episodes that elegantly normalise and accept same sex relationships doesn't she .
Barbara wrote: "But we see from the scene with Vatinius and Quintillius at the barracks just outside Bethlehem, that he could have been a soldier and still have easily found a love.NL regularly has these little episodes that elegantly normalise and accept same sex relationships doesn't she ...."
Do you think so? I felt that in both cases the relationship was more like a form of prostitution than love: the slave was hoping for a life of pampered luxury rather than the hardships of campaign, and affection doesn't seem to have come into it; Vatinius openly accuses Quintilius of being a whore and Quintilius doesn't deny it, in fact he had offered to find Vatinius a 'rich gentleman friend' of his own. I got the impression that to him Marius had been a way out of the army rather than of finding love within it.
I'm not sure either that NL's other gay characters are normalised and accepted. The women (Lovers All Untrue, Jassy, Nethergate tend to be warped if not unhinged; Rupert in The House at Old Vine is spiteful and manipulative; John in the Knight's Acre trilogy (view spoiler). I can't think of any happy, loving gay relationships.
Catch up time! Gasper's ancestors came from the north east, moving further south west because of multiple droughts. I've read a few books about Genghis Khan and many of the details of their nomadic life incredibly similar. The Mongols covered a vast area, so it is feasible that there were tribes to the west, sort of NE of India (roughly).
Again NL borrows from different times, although not much is known about these tribes during the time of the Nativity.
Also, these tribes were nomadic, so moving great distances to have access to food and water, or away from other warring tribes is totally possible.
Jenny mentioned the subject of language.It has always amazed me how much people used to move about in historic times (or they never ventured anywhere!). Melchior would have travelled along the northern parts of the Silk Road I reckon, With all the trade and the travelling done slowly along these routes, I can imagine people were exposed to so many different languages. Wealthy people would speak more than one language, traders and merchants would need to speak as many languages as possible.
I can totally see people being fluent in two or three languages and know smatterings of several others.
In England, after 1066 French, English and Latin would all have been used.
I love the description of the voyage for tin. Following the map and the descriptions, they got fresh supplies from Portugal I think. Then they headed into the Bay of Biscay. This area is notoriously stormy. I've heard many a story of cruise ships and their passengers falling foul of the bad weather.
I can sympathize with the sailors as I was once so badly seasick during a yacht race that they wanted to call a helicopter to get me back on land. I declined and continued to roll around the floor of the yacht, dry retching and semi-conscious!
The rose coloured coastline would be Devon in England - probably around the Exmouth area. It is commonly called the Jurassic Coast and it is an area of red sandstone (great area for fossil hunting!). The circular boats used are coracles, and were still produced for fishermen until quite recently (1970s).
From what I recall (I used to read a lot about that area), there was a lot of open mining, where the tin was very close to the surface. Oh, and the blue dye worn by the leader would have been woad.
Did you pick up on the sailor who said that they were doomed, and would be Roman territory in about 20 years! Very clever detail. England is littered with Roman remains. I remember exploring the Roman barracks and amphitheatre in Caerleon. They are just in a field with some information notices - nothing special - lots of them about! I used to live very close to Bath - which we still sometimes call Aquae Sulis - a famous Roman town.
Djo wrote: "I can imagine people were exposed to so many different languages. Wealthy people would speak more than one language, traders and merchants would need to speak as many languages as possible.I can totally see people being fluent in two or three languages and know smatterings of several others...."
Yes, but we're told that Gaspar only knows his own. And yet it's sufficiently like Melchior's language ("the tongue which was common to them and which had been carried by the successive waves of emigrants from their original homeland") for them to be able to communicate - indeed, it's sufficiently like what they speak in Jexal for the Vizier who tells Gaspar about Melchior to have understood enough of it. "Something between the market speech which I use to you and the speech of the 500 which you use to me", he calls it. Even the 'Jexalian tongue' is described as "removed from [Gaspar's] own by the softening, refining influence of a thousand years" but who but a specialised academic understands spoken Anglo-Saxon now?
It's not a question of whether some people knew more than one language - we know that Melchior and Balthasar both do, even if Gaspar doesn't: it's that I just don't believe in Gaspar and Melchior's supposed common language. I can understand it as a necessary device, but it stretches credulity to say that after so long, and at such a distance, with no communication in the meantime, the descendants of the original language would still be mutually comprehensible. Especially since Gaspar's people are so ethnically distinct from Melchior's.
Hmmm. You make very good points, Although, in the first chapter about Melchior, didn't it talk about the Chinese invading/conquering Korea? Would some of the Mongolian tribes spoken Chinese, or something close to it?I guess NL has to make it happen or the story wouldn't work!
I wonder if she ever realised how popular and well established this book would be. As she wrote it, I'd love to know what details she thought would delight and amaze us, causing long discussions.
You have obviously taken much more note of the languages, while I have loved following the tin trade and other details.
I love how we can share the different things we see in the book.
I feel sorry for Eunice and Ephorus.To me, they have a touch of pantomine horse about them. One tries, then the other tries - they are never in step although they are bound together - they are doomed to fail unless they communicate.
(if only I could have been so wise about my doomed marriage!)
The idea of just spending one hour, every day, for eleven years, improving the inn really touches something in me. When I have a task too daunting, I think of it in these terms and it helps.
Djo wrote: "I love the description of the voyage for tin . . .." And, Djo, I love your elucidation on that part of the island! What I know of it, I know from books such as Lorna Doone, which does mention the tin mines, and The Hound of the Baskervilles. The farthest west I've actually been in England is Bath, where I was able to feel that the water was at least warm. (Another member of the tour group actually sipped some and reported, "Yes, it tastes like bathwater.")
Jenny wrote, " I can't think of any happy, loving gay relationships [in NL's writings]" Neither can I--not even any reciprocal>/b> ones. The acceptance of such relationships has largely developed since NL "laid down her pen."
I'm sure that Dorcas loved Ephorus - or as much as she was capable of love, in her profession - he must have been younger and better looking than the majority of er " admirers ". However, she certainly couldn't take the risk of refusing a good offer of security and probably money in the face of the improbability of him returning to her, rich.When her maid said she'd gone to a " red city " I thought of Damascus, " a rose-red city / Half as old as time ", although that might just have been poetic license !
MaryC wrote: "Jenny wrote, " I can't think of any happy, loving gay relationships [in NL's writings]" Neither can I--not even any reciprocal>/b> ones. The acceptance of such relationships has largely developed s..."Jenny wrote: "Barbara wrote: "But we see from the scene with Vatinius and Quintillius at the barracks just outside Bethlehem, that he could have been a soldier and still have easily found a love.
NL regularly ha..."
Yes, but my point was that she wrote about it as a usual thing.
Djo wrote: "I feel sorry for Eunice and Ephorus.To me, they have a touch of pantomine horse about them. One tries, then the other tries - they are never in step although they are bound together - they are doo..."
Yes me too. tho I think they may just be able to salvage something from all this.
And for Christmastide itself, the last quarter. What have our characters achieved as they all arrive at their destination?I'm afraid what strikes me most about Melchior is that he has fallen into the trap that so many people in legends and traditional stories fall into when they try to prevent what has been foretold: it ends up being his own actions that cause the very danger he set out to protect the child against.
Of course, it was he who was adamant that the three of them should not go to Jerusalem and it was Gaspar and Balthasar who overruled him, but if he had stayed at home in Korea, then Herod would never have known anything about the birth of the 'rival king', who would then have been in no danger.
This isn't something that seems to occur to any of the three of them - in fact, Melchior congratulates himself on having pinpointed the source of the danger - and I wonder whether it occurred to Norah Lofts herself?
Jenny wrote: "And for Christmastide itself, the last quarter. What have our characters achieved as they all arrive at their destination?I'm afraid what strikes me most about Melchior is that he has fallen into..."
Yes it is an interesting speculation ... Melchior actually says to Mary and Joseph, "Most unguardedly I mentioned something of my errand to (Herod) and he knows my destination" and shortly later feels all the weight of his years and travel and the burden of foreknowledge .
But Mary's gesture of comfort to Joseph goes to his heart and brings the memory of the faithful Senya to him. How happy she would be to know how much he cared at last . I like the revelations that come to them ,via Mary. Gaspar's that his views on women are bigoted and plain wrong, and Balthazar stirred memory of his little sister , taken as a sacrifice. so that he is minded , against his own will , to sacrifice his freedom and go back to his awful owner and make good , because he technically is a thief. I do hope he get free again and can go to Jexal to become the teacher of young man who Gaspar needs, and where he would be free, respected and happy .
Jenny, that was brilliant....that point, in the excitement of the chase, has escaped me..When Melchoir realises, from what Herod says, that Herod has his own soothsayers who have generally agreed that a child of imprtance will be born in Bethlehem, he finds it strange that Herod insists that he, Melchoir, returns to Jerusalem after he has seen the child, to give Herod all the details....he realises, belatedly, that Herod, a suspicious and craft man, trusts none of his own people and could be dangerous...not only to the 3 wise men, but to the child itself, who was surely not of his own lineage, and, thus, a threat to his power.
Poor, unworldly Melchoir !
But at least he had realised the danger they risked putting the child to come into, and warns Balthazar not to make any mention of him to Vatinius...Balthazar could lie that Melchoir had been hired to cast a roroscope for a wedding in Bethlehem and he could also say, with truth, to protect all 3 of them ( and to free them ) that they had promised Herod to call on him on their way back fro Bethlehem....so they did avert the second danger !
Also, Melchoir now knew enough to warn Joseph and Mary that they must flee as quickly as possible, to avoid Herod...a warning that, had they not met Herod, might not have been given, and would might surely have been fatal, given the order that the fearful and cautious Herod soon gave, about the slaughtering of all first botns of the Jews in that area.He also, in describing the breadth of Jesus's influence ( greater even than ' ), makes signs in the air to delineate the scope of his power, and, of course, in marking the four points of the compass, Mary only sees the sign of the cross that her child will be crucified on....a man of sorrows, acquainted with grief, and doomed to an agonising death even before he was born...was any mother fated to bear a worse burden fro the beginning ?
She is wise to have said to Joseph, long before, that the only way they can keep their sanity and balance, is to think of the child - and to treat the child - like any other " normal ", ordinary child, and simply love it....otherwise, it would be too great a burden for both of them.
Tanya wrote: "....a warning that, had they not met Herod, might not have been given, and would might surely have been fatal, given the order that the fearful and cautious Herod soon gave, about the slaughtering of all first botns of the Jews in that area...."But Herod wouldn't have given that order had not Melchior told him about the birth of the baby! He would have had no reason to suppose anything was up and would not have asked the priests about the birthplace of the Messiah. The whole event would have gone unnoticed and Mary & Joseph would have taken their baby back to Nazareth without any hitch.
Barbara wrote: "...Balthazar ... is minded , against his own will , to sacrifice his freedom and go back to his awful owner and make good , because he technically is a thief. I do hope he get free again and can go to Jexal to become the teacher of young man who Gaspar needs, and where he would be free, respected and happy ."That does show tremendous courage and integrity in Balthasar, though I do think it's terribly sad that he has been so robbed of his freedom that he truly believes he has no right to it.
But there's a huge flaw in Gaspar's plan to pay 'The Lady' double Balthasar's worth, isn't there? How is he going to do that? He can't just pop a cheque in the post! They can't go back to Jexal via Edessa and drop the money off on the way (even supposing they had enough to spare on them) in case The Lady decides she'd rather keep Balthasar and make his life a misery - Balthasar has got to keep well away from there. The others can't leave him somewhere safe and make a detour because they don't speak the language. Gaspar could send some of his men with the money when they get back, but not until Balthasar has had a chance to teach some of them some languages. I can't think of any other way he could do it, though.
Jenny wrote: "Tanya wrote: "....a warning that, had they not met Herod, might not have been given, and would might surely have been fatal, given the order that the fearful and cautious Herod soon gave, about the..."Re Herod's killing of the babies: As an eighteen-year-old college freshman, I asked my religion professor how John the Baptist had escaped that massacre. It's probably significant that I don't remember his answer
MaryC wrote: "I asked my religion professor how John the Baptist had escaped that massacre..."He wasn't in Bethlehem. According to the gospel of Luke, Elizabeth and Zechariah lived "in the hill country of Judaea", town or village not specified; Matthew's gospel describes Herod's massacre taking place 'in and around Bethlehem'.
Jenny, thank you SO much for leading this ( sorry, last!) years HFTB so very well. Every year we say/find something new and I for one really appreciated your leadership and enjoyed the discussion all over again.So, thank you once more.
I guess you would wish to follow our now-usual habit of leaving the thread open in case anyone has post hoc musings?
Barbara wrote: "I guess you would wish to follow our now-usual habit of leaving the thread open in case anyone has post hoc musings..."Yes, that would make sense.
As before, feel free to keep on talking about previous chapters. Balthasar's unnamed 'Lady' reminds me horribly of To See a Fine Lady's Mrs Stancy! Though I think she's even worse.
What do you think of Dorcas? What did she really feel for Ephorus? Would it have worked between them?