Victorians! discussion
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Conversations in the Parlor
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General chit-chat and information (part 2)
** Potential Vanity Fair SPOILER **Paul wrote: "SEMI SPOILER, isn't that what Rhett does in the movie, basically run away from Scarlett saying, "Frankly my dear I don't give a damn.""
I don't quite recall Rhett's motivations for leaving Scarlett (I've only see the movie and it was years ago), however, I don't think his reasons are the same as Rawdon's. Rawdon is completely controlled by Becky for years; he is weak-willed and weak-minded, attributes that I believe do not apply to Rhett. Rawdon runs away with his tail between his legs and only due to his humiliation by Becky that he finally becomes aware of (or finally allows himself to acknowledge awareness). Even in his retreat, Rawdon is under the authority of Becky as the position that allows him to escape the scandal is through the man with whom Becky had an intimate relationship. To me, Rhett is a self-made man who lives on his own terms, and allows himself to be under the spell of a woman he knows to be a siren. Whereas Rawdon is a spineless playboy that is made and ruined by the manipulations of the women who has him under her spell. This sounds a bit harsh on Rawdon, but it is true.
Boof wrote: "I haven't read either book but now I am really curious to read BOTH! (Actually, they have both been on my TBR pile forever). I think I am going to give VF a crack this summer (for some reason I..."
Not sure, Boof, but oddly enough I felt the same way! I read it one summer and loved it. I read GWTW twice, the second time for a paper, and after reading it twice and analyzing it to death, I think I've maxed out on it. It's a fun read, but as Paul says, there are definitely parts that may make the reader tilt their head to the side and say, "huh?"
MaryZorro wrote: "I just finished Gone With the Wind and am now starting Vanity Fair. I had no idea I would be continuing on with the same characters! Melanie/Amelia and Scarlett/Becky are amazingly alike (and Mar..."I read a biography of Margaret Mitchell years ago and from memory VF was one of her favourite novels. I don't think one could have any doubt Thackery had a great influence on Margaret Mitchell. Both great reads. Scarlett and Becky are such interesting characters. so multifaceted.
According to the biography I read, MM didn't fix on a name for Scarlett until very late and in the draft she was called Pansy! Wouldn't that have been wrong?
Laurele wrote: "Paul wrote: "It isn't just the characters, but the situations too, it is a little too close"I love Vanity Fair, but have not yet read Gone with the Wind. Will I be disappointed?"
Gone With the Wind is a fantastic story, with interesting, well rounded characters. MM researched her material in detail, so it is a good historical novel as well. However, she does write from the point of view of a southerner not that far removed from the loss of the Civil War, so it is a romanticised view of black/white relations that paints a paternalistic view of slavery that was far from the truth.
Having said that, it is a great yarn and Scarlett one of fictions most intriguing heroines. There are some engaging sup-plots as well.
Paula wrote: "Ok, all, I need some help! I found a 4-story used bookstore in Chicago that I'm going to visit in about 2 weeks. Any recommendations on what to look for while there? I haven't read any Trollope or ..."I agree North and South is a good place to start with Gaskell, Wives and Daughters is great too. They are quite different stories, both love stories but North and South concentrates on the misunderstandings between a self-made industrialist and a southern minster's daughter. It also paints a grim and realistic view of poverty in the North of England. Wives and Daughters is more about family relationships, as the title suggests.
The Warden was lovely...and relatively short. The Barchester Chronicles is a good place to start, I agree.
I enjoyed Can You Forgive Her, the characters and the situations they get themselves into are interesting. I also liked the Eustace Diamonds-the heroine is delightfully wicked in the mode of Becky Sharp, although perhaps not as clever.
MaryZorro wrote: "In another thread Tracey said: <<<sounds like a plan
Sasha: Can You Forgive Her was the first in a nine-novel series called The Pallisers. I think Masterpiece Theater did it many years ago. I recommend you read them in order, because characters come and go throughout the series.
We actually watched part of Gone with the Wind while I was taking a women's history course. The movie got a lot of the stuff about women right on the nose, apparently, from what our professor said.
Announcement We have had a little spring clean of the group and folders etc (we felt that there were too many folders and it was becoming confusing for newbies).
Please take a look at the Welcome the the Victorians! topic above which now clearly states what each folder is for.
Any suggestions are always welcome too - please do pass on ideas etc to both Paula and I and we will do our best to accommodate if we can.
So here's my random question to the group... imagine you are going away to another country for 5 weeks. You are going for work, so don't imagine this as a leisure holiday, but as you have nights (and most weekends) relatively free, you need something to occupy that time. Naturally, you use that time to read, maybe sitting with a pot of tea in a hotel lounge, or curled up in blankets on your monster hotel bed. The question... how many books do you take, and which ones?
Ah, now you're asking my favourite question. The answer to the how many is lots and which ones....?I would take a big meaty classic that normally you wouldn't be able to spend so much time on, so perhaps Anna Karenina or a Dickens (I would try Bleak House if it were me). You'll also need lots of quicker reads to break it up so I would go with a couple of mysteries ( my comfort reading) and maybe some set in the country you are going to (which is where, by the way?)
The thought of sitting with a pot of tea in a hotel lounge, or curled up in blankets on your monster hotel bed for 5 weeks actually sounds really appealing to me!
Paula wrote: "So here's my random question to the group... imagine you are going away to another country for 5 weeks. You are going for work, so don't imagine this as a leisure holiday, but as you have nights (a..."This is an easy one -- "Jane Eyre," "Persuasion & Pride & Prejudice," and the entire "Aubrey-Maturin" canon by Patrick O'Brian. See, now that wasn't very hard was it? Have a good trip, Paula! Cheers! Chris
I'm with Boof. A little a this and a little a that. Definitely something set in the place where you are going. I did that with Hemingway's Big Two Hearter River and was stunned. So, where are you going? And who's carrying the suitcase full of books?
Paris, but not close enough to the city where I can just wander around at night. Hopefully weekends can be spent seeing things, but will still end up with a lot of time on my own. I like the idea of one big chunky classic and some other fun reads. What are the odds I can find books in English in Paris?
And sorry - didn't mean to make it about me - was hoping to generalize it so people could 'play along.'
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh, Paula, there is THE best bookshop in Paris and it is an English bookshop! I swear, once you find it you will be in as often as possible! It's called Shakespeare and Company and it on the edge of the Latin Quarter - if you find Notre Dame (which you must go to, too) then cross over the bridge towards the Latin Quarter and you will see it opposite you on your right hand side. It is my favourite bookshop in the whole world - it stays open unitl about midnight and they light it up with fairylights on the trees outside. It has nooks and crannies everywhere and you will see beds in some of the rooms where the owner, George, lets people stay. It's like a dream bookshop! You will LOVE it!!!! So, if you're going to Paris then I would take some of the French Victorians like Zola, Maupassant, Dumas or Hugo. I have read a few but not nearly enough. If you do decide on any of those authors let me know as I would love to join you in a read (I'm champing at the bit to get to some more French classics and this would be a good excuse).
I love books set in France so I would also recommend ones like Five Quarters of the Orange by Joanne Harris (one of my favourite books) and Perfume by Patrick Suskind (even though she's English and he's German, lol -they're both set in France though and will give you a great feel for the country).
I'm so excited for you - I love Paris! I love France! I'm jealous!!!!
Paula - have such a wonderful time! Please keep us updated on your trip; I will live vicariously through you as I have been longing to visit Paris for years and years.I agree with Boof's suggestions - something thick and meaty and some fun, light reads as well. If I were you, I would take a book I had started and have never been able to finish (it's Anna Karenina for me), and make it a goal to finish it while away. I am a very goal/task oriented person, so this type of exercise appeals to me, but may not to you :)
If you haven't read Eat, Pray, Love that would be a good light read, it is about a woman's adventures traveling by herself. Also, it might be interesting to find someone's travelogue of Paris or France, you might get some insight into some fun places to see.
This is when it would really come in handy to have a Kindle. I think I would practice my French with some Jules Verne novels with the French to English dictionary set as main dictionary. Then some Victor Hugo and Dumas. And the Abbe Provost's little book, Manon Lescaut. And some of the audio French programs from Audible.
I have a Kindle, and thanks to you, Laurele, I have an Audible membership. Must go check out the French programs... certainly can't take my library's CD program along! Ahhh... to someday know French well enough to read some of these classics in the original language... Camus, Proust, Dumas, Hugo. Right now I get excited just listening to the French accent on the Agatha Christie 'Hercule Poirot' audiobooks! (I know he's Belgian, but the accent sure sounds French... must be Walloon).
Reading some of these different threads makes me wonder... when you consider someone to be well-read in 19th century lit, what do you mean? I think we had the top Vic lit books around here somewhere, but I'm wondering if there is a 'top 100 victorian novels' list somewhere. Must go search...
Love Goodreads - I found a list already!! http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/16...
Not just Victorian, but I love lists of books, so find this interesting. Some notable misses though - no Trollope?! (don't tell Everyman :)
There's a Victorian Novels list as well ( http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/39... ), if anyone wants to vote on that one.Paula - you could vote for Trollope! If you try and can't, it's probably the "not published in century" problem and I can fix that. And The Way We Live Now is on page 2 currently.
ETA: Just voted for a couple of other Trollopes myself.
Oh! I think that's the list I was looking for! Thanks Susanna!There is also this one - a reading list for PhD students: http://www.unm.edu/~english/resources...
I like this one with the inclusion of some great works of poetry.
Paula wrote: "..going away to another country for 5 weeks. ...The question... how many books do you take, and which ones? ..."I take my Kindle stocked with over 1,000 books, mostly classics. After that, it depends on how I'm traveling. If by car, I take at least two dozen other books, including some lighter fare (Wodehouse, Mortimer), some essays (Hazlitt, Lucas, E.B. White), and an odd assortment of other things. If by train or ship, nearly that many. I don't travel by plane, so that's not an issue.
If by foot or bicycle, I may have to settle for just the Kindle. Sigh.
If truth be told, I'm very much attuned to Somerset Maugham in his delightful short story "The Book Bag." It's still in copyright, so you'll have to go find a print copy to read. Do so; it's worth it.
I wish I had a Kindle! *envious*Paula, I had a pocket-size paperback of A Moveable Feast with me when I had the opportunity to spend a month in Paris. I used it as a sort of guidebook and it inspired me to hang out at the places that Hemingway frequented. It was a lot of fun!
And give Shakespeare & Co. a visit while there --- it's touristy but still pretty atmospheric.
I wish I had a Kindle! *envious*Paula, I had a pocket-size paperback of A Moveable Feast with me when I had the opportunity to spend a month in Paris. I used it as a sort of guidebook and it inspired me to hang out at the places that Hemingway frequented. It was a lot of fun!
And give Shakespeare & Co. a visit while there --- it's touristy but still pretty atmospheric. It's pretty much a character in Hemingway's book too.
Paula wrote: "Love Goodreads - I found a list already!! http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/16...
Not just Victorian, but I love lists of books, so find this interesting. Some notable misses though - no Trollope?! (don't tell Everyman :)
"
Oh, it's okay to tell him. It makes him feel superior to all those people who voted for other books instead of Trollope. (just kidding. Really. Well, sort of really.)
But its weakness is that it is virtually all novels. Only three or so non-novels. And the only poetry I was is Whitman?? The Communist Manifesto in preference to the Prelude or Byron's Don Juan? Nothing of Keats, Shelley, Blake, or any of the Romantics?
Not a single essayist that I saw. No Hazlitt. Not a mention of the Essays of Elia.
Just goes to show.
Well, vote on the list, then! Add Hazlitt and Byron and Shelley and Keats.ETA: Ah, I know why no one voted for Byron. He's suffering from "not published in this century" syndrome. Just corrected Don Juan's original publication date from 1958 to something more reasonable (1824).
Paula wrote: "Oh! I think that's the list I was looking for! Thanks Susanna!There is also this one - a reading list for PhD students: http://www.unm.edu/~english/resources...
I like t..."
That's a much more interesting list. But perhaps more oriented toward American students of English literature than English students? I suspect that a list from Oxford would have considerably more drama on it, for example. But it's a much better list than some of the others.
Okay, if I'm a list snob, at least I'm not ashamed of it.
*Please Read*There has been a lot of talk recently about side reads and buddy reads. We obviously want to encourage all the great discussions around books in general, however, are going to ask that going forward, you check with the moderators before starting a new discussion for a book.
I know this is pulling a bit of moderator's perogative so apologize if this seems overbearing. There are a few reasons we want this monitored:
- Buddy reads tend to have very low participation, or can make people feel overwhelmed that there are too many discussions to keep up on.
- Once a book goes into a buddy read, it tends to not make it to a group read. This is unfortunate, as we can lose some great group reads to a side section that didn't get much participation.
- The moderators check everything that is going on for the site (it's part of our job :). Adding buddy reads can become a little ... daunting, because that means Boof and I are reading the comments about a book we may have not read (including spoilers). We don't have time to read as many books as are discussed (unfortunately) so part of the reasoning behind the reading schedule is maintaining our sanity.
If you request a buddy read, and we decide it's a good idea to move forward, we recommend not adding a schedule to it. These discussion threads stay open indefinitely, so we don't want to alienate or rush or miss participants by assinging 'due dates' to the readings.
The request can go to either Boof or myself, but please do not open any further side read discussions without first consulting us. Thank you all!
MaryZorro wrote: "Sorry."It's all good, my friend :)
Paula wrote: "Paris, but not close enough to the city where I can just wander around at night. Hopefully weekends can be spent seeing things, but will still end up with a lot of time on my own. I like the id..."
Lucky you, Paula! I was in Paris in January and headed to Shakespeare and Company as soon as I could. It is an excellent bookshop and the bistro next door, Le Petit Chatelet, is wonderful.
As a big fan of Zola, I read Therese Racquin when in Paris-the area where the characters lived is very near the Seine on the Left Bank, somewhere between Shakespeare and Company and the Louvre. Zola often traces his character's walks in detail. The following web page http://emilezola.info/Images/Assommoi...
traces the walk the wedding party took in another great work by Zola, L'Assomier (The Drinking Den).
I think because I was reading Zola, I saw Paris not as a romantic place, but as a city of secrets and darkness. It was the middle of winter and very snowy. When you are there it should be lovely and green.
I hope you have a lovely time!
Wow.. I actually wish I was going in winter now! Secrets and darkness sound much more adventurous as I'll be on my own and not enjoying the Paris spring with my fiance! Thanks for the tip on the restaurant!After Boof's comment about reading something French while there I've been eyeing up my unread copy of "Germinal" and I think you just convinced me :)
Sasha, what a great post! I want to go back to Paris this instant with a copy of L'Assomier in hand (I have this book on my shelf). I have only read one Zola (Therese Raquin) and I MUST rectify this really soon. Paula, Germinal is meant to be one of his best. You're so lucky to be reading Zola while you're in Paris.I want to go back to Paris now - I love that place. I love all of France, it's one of my favourite countries.
MaryZorro wrote: "Paula, if you need to delete Vanity Fair, that's fine with me. Sorry I didn't understand about the side reads/buddy reads. I won't start another one. ..."MaryZorro- the intention was not to specifically call out your buddy read, which is why Vanity Fair was not mentioned above. This is something I should have made clear before, so please don't think we are singling you out at all.
I would have sent you a personal note explaining this, but your settings are such that I cannot send you a message. Also, re. the note you posted in VF, it isn't that we don't allow scheduled readings, it is that we recommend not having set timelines for buddy/side reads, to encourage more people to participate in them over a longer period of time. If a schedule is set up that ends in April, for example, then in May people may not think it is ok to join.
Please let me know if you have any questions or want to talk further. Thank you!
We now have over 700 members in our group. My my, how far our little group has come in just a year! I hope everyone enjoys the group - Paula and I are always around if you have any comments or suggestions ☺
Boof wrote: "Paula and I are always around if you have any comments or suggestions ☺ ..."Oui!
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I believe the book you are looking for is called "Moths," Marjorie. :)
Paula wrote: "I believe the book you are looking for is called "Moths," Marjorie. :)"Boy, you're good.
Moths sounds like a book I would just love to read ^^ wow! old books! I would love to have such copies :D
I love the smell of old books, and somehow it's so much more exciting to read really old books than new ones.
Sigrid wrote: "Moths sounds like a book I would just love to read ^^ wow! old books! I would love to have such copies :D
I love the smell of old books, and somehow it's so much more exciting to read really old ..."
In my opinion, that's because you're not reading historical fiction, you're reading history itself.
Sigrid wrote: "Moths sounds like a book I would just love to read ^^ wow! old books! I would love to have such copies :D
I love the smell of old books, and somehow it's so much more exciting to read really old ..."
I love old books too, Sigrid. I love imagining who may have read this book before me.
i love to buy old editions of classics. got aout 15 now icluding vanity fair, some dickens and some hardy-there not worth much but they make me happy to look at.most have gorgeous illustrations as well. I also find that books were often given as gifts and there are often nice little messages from the sender inside the book some of mine have birthday tidings from before 1924. love to imagine the person browsing the bookstore for the book and wrapping it up and then someone enjoying it for the first time when the pages were crisp and spanking new....yes im a bit strange!!!!lol
Lushbug wrote: "i love to buy old editions of classics. got aout 15 now icluding vanity fair, some dickens and some hardy-there not worth much but they make me happy to look at.most have gorgeous illustrations as ..."Not strange at all. A significant portion of my library is just what you describe -- pre-owned editions of classics. In my younger days, before the internet when one had either to go to a bookstore physically or order by mail, I had a relationship with a wonderful second hand bookstore in England which was able to get me many of my beloved English classics in lovely hardback editions at prices cheaper than paperbacks over here at the time. I have a complete set of the Hardy novels and a complete set of Scott, both collected gradually over the years as the bookstore was able to find them for me and I had the money to buy them.
You're not strange at all -- especially not in this group here!
I have created two groups on goodreads if you would like to check them out. They are:
Fashion Book Lovers! (This group allows people to share and discuss fashion books that inspire them.)
Augustan to pre-World War II book club! (This group is for books written from 1700-1939 (minus Jane Austen and Victorian era books since there are already groups for these). I created this group because a few books I have do not seem to fit into any particular group.)
http://www.goodreads.com/group/invite...
http://www.goodreads.com/group/invite...
You're not strange at all -- especially not in this group here! Hear Hear!
Marjorie wrote: "I have now reread "Moths." The heroine is impossibly noble and virtuous and just about everybody else is either totally evil or terminally shallow and frivolous.But I can see why it would have been a best seller. It's compulsively readable. Ouida's portrayal of late 19th century "beau monde" (the equivalent of today's jet set) is highly entertaining. I can imagine readers at a lesser social and economic level tsk-tsking over the immorality of the characters -- while eagerly turning the pages to read more about their scandalous doings."
So funny--I just read this and I've been meaning to post a review of it. But I think you pretty much summed up my feelings about it--the heroine is so goody-goody she's downright boring. And that's saying something for Victorian heroines! ;)
I love imagining that too, Boof :D wow, Lushbug! that sounds great! :D
does any of you know where I can buy old copies of books? I would love to buy some classics.
That's hard to answer Sigrid, as it is based so much on your location. Local second-hand bookstores that aren't part of a chain are usually great for these. I live near Chicago, and sometimes find great old books in antique stores. You can find some on-line, just by searching around a bit. Not sure that helps at all :(
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Victorians!
Books mentioned in this topic
The Count of Monte Cristo (other topics)The Portrait of a Lady (other topics)
The Count of Monte Cristo (other topics)
The Portrait of a Lady (other topics)
The Scarlet Letter (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Anthony Trollope (other topics)Anthony Trollope (other topics)
Anthony Trollope (other topics)
Henry James (other topics)
Louisa May Alcott (other topics)
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Keep the ideas coming!!!!