Victorians! discussion
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Conversations in the Parlor
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General chit-chat and information (part 2)
It may be the only time, but I completely agree with you, Chris. I take the view that introductions are written for the obvious reasons and if they weren't meant to be read, they wouldn't be located at the beginning. I also have rarely been disappointed with an introduction to a Penguin Classic. Did you know that it is the 75th anniversary of Penguin Books,this week. Much to celebrate.
David wrote: "It may be the only time, but I completely agree with you, Chris. I take the view that introductions are written for the obvious reasons and if they weren't meant to be read, they wouldn't be locat..."David, with respect to Penguin Classics there is truly a lot to celebrate! They have been the greatest thing that could have happened to great literature, in my opinion. Apparently, it was becoming very difficult to find many of these great books before Penguin started republishing them.
Happy 75th, Penguin, and keep up the great work!
If the introduction is written by the author, I read it. However, if it is written by someone else I read it with caution. If I do encounter some plot or character spoilers, I don't read those and skim through the rest to catch any more information that would not spoil my read of the novel. I typically like to experience a novel with fresh eyes, and enjoy the ride!
Joy wrote: "If the introduction is written by the author, I read it. However, if it is written by someone else I read it with caution. If I do encounter some plot or character spoilers, I don't read those and ..."Joy, I get where you're coming from too. I think I used to be more concerned with not being surprised, but I find that it isn't such a big deal for me any longer. At this juncture, I am really just trying to maximize my own personal learning experience associated with all of this great stuff we read. It is very interesting to me how similarly and/or differently we all seem to approach this too.
If it's by the author, I read it first. If it's by an editor or expert on the author or literary guru or whatever, I read it after the novel, for the most part.
Joy wrote: "If the introduction is written by the author, I read it. However, if it is written by someone else I read it with caution."When we're speaking of novels, I'm with you, at least when I'm reading a book for the first time.
Some introductions don't discuss the plot, but talk more generally about the background, the author, etc. Those I will usually read.
But when the introduction starts to get into specifics of the book, I stop. I prefer to come to a book as a "virgin," developing my own thoughts about it not affected by what others think.
If I'm sufficiently interested in a book, I will often read the introduction after I have read the book to compare my interpretations with those of the introducer and enrich the reading experience. And if it's a book I'm re-reading, I'll often read the introduction to refresh my memory and look for some particular points to watch for this time through that I may have missed on the first reading. (I subscribe heartily to the theory that any book worth reading is worth re-reading.)
For the same reason, I never see the movie or adaptation of a book I haven't yet read but intend to, because I don't want my own approach to the book to be affected by a director's interpretation of it, and I want to visualize the characters out of my own imagination and not have a particular actor's features and mannerisms planted in my brain.
For non-fiction books, history, poetry, essays, travel books, and the like I will usually read the introduction if it seems worthwhile since I'm reading for knowledge, not plot and drama and character development, and the more knowledge about the book the better.
I agree very closely with Everyman on this subject. As you prob. know, Chris, I am a girl who likes her footnotes and endnotes, but those usually guide me as to meaning, context, editing decisions in that edition, etc.I think with certain introductions, I feel I am being too "directed" regarding the story and interpretation. I like to form my own thoughts first and very much do not like outcomes of the story to be revealed.
So I do usually read the introductions, but after. So they really should just switch them to afterwords or epilogues. :P
Since i bought the zero dollars edition on my kindle, there was no introduction. I am wondering what I missed.
It is quite intriguing to me everyone's approach to Introductions. Thanks for sharing your perspectives! Where else could we talk about such an inane subject as whether and how we read Introductions? ;-)
Okay, here's another question for you--How many of you are 'margin scribblers' and 'underliners' in the novels that you are reading?
My Answer: I always use a pencil; but I am a confirmed scribbler, and am always annotating the margins of my book as I read. I underline important passages. I look things up and then craft a little note next to things in the book. I sometimes jot a few notes at the end of an important chapter that summarizes points, observations, or events. I also keep a running list of important thoughts and observations on the inside of the fly-leaf that helps me when I craft my review of the book upon finishing it.
I think that my approach to reading my novels is something that I developed in college. It seems to be my best strategy for more fully comprehending and experiencing a book. My daughter (the Ph.D.) loves browsing my books and looking at my marginalia. ;-)
So, what do you do?
No, I was told never to write anything on any pages of any book. It was axiomatic that one never, ever wrote in a book. However, I do have an index card which I also use as a bookmark, so if there is anything I need to make a note of, I write it on the index card together with the page reference.
David wrote: "No, I was told never to write anything on any pages of any book. It was axiomatic that one never, ever wrote in a book. However, I do have an index card which I also use as a bookmark, so if ther..."That'll work too, David.
David wrote: "No, I was told never to write anything on any pages of any book. It was axiomatic that one never, ever wrote in a book. "But books in which famous people have scribbled marginalia are far more valuable than pristine books. So if you ever get famous, you may be doing your heirs out of a lot of money by not scribbling in your books!!
Hmm.. I think I can live with the consequences.
I realize that I am stating the obvious, but I do NOT 'scribble' in any book but my own. I also do NOT dog-ear pages of any book. I use nice bookmarks (I collect them, in fact).
I don't generally annotate or underline (because I read in bed, and a pencil's not usually handy), but most of my Victorian novels were my parents' copies in grad school, and have lots of cool annotations on the side.
Susanna wrote: "I don't generally annotate or underline (because I read in bed, and a pencil's not usually handy), but most of my Victorian novels were my parents' copies in grad school, and have lots of cool anno..."Oh, Susanna, those must be just lovely to encounter. My daughter (who has already called 'dibs' on my library), has expressed her fascination and interest in my notations too.
I am an underliner, a note maker, also those post-it note arrows (I take them out later though). Not in every book, but in ones that I get interested in personally or ones for group discussion. Thomas Hardy is pretty heavily underlined right now!
Sarah wrote: "I am an underliner, a note maker, also those post-it note arrows (I take them out later though). Not in every book, but in ones that I get interested in personally or ones for group discussion. ..."Sarah, that's pretty much my approach too!
Sometimes when I re-read a novel, I will expand on previous notations, or even erase an incorrect notion and replace it with something more appropriate. I enjoy looking at my notes as they reflect a very real part of me at the time when I last read that particular book.
It was ingrained in me from an early age that writing in books is basically a sin, probably because most of my books as a child were from the library or were special keepsake types. Over the years I have branched out to making very small marks in my own books; tiny dots next to the beginning of sentence of note or very small half-brackets for longer passages. However, being in pencil and so small they are next to impossible to find, so they are often worthless. I do have a copy of The Importance of Being Earnest covered with a friend's underlining and notations, and it is such a joy to read all of the notes and see how our interpretations are the same or differ.One day I may get the courage to mark up a book of my own in that way.
Christopher wrote: "Sarah wrote: "I am an underliner, a note maker, also those post-it note arrows (I take them out later though). Not in every book, but in ones that I get interested in personally or ones for group ..."I'm also a heavy user of the blank endpapers in hardback books (one reason I love hardbacks -- few paperbacks offer much blank paper). I use them for all sorts of lists, drawing out genealogical charts in books that call for that, jotting down page numbers of passages I particularly want to go back to, etc.
I never read the introduction before the novel, not because I'm worried about spoilers in particular (although I think they are often there) but because I generally can't wait to get started with the book itself. After I've read the book for myself, then I take an interest in what the introduction says and what other people think etc.When it comes to note taking, we were actively encouraged to annotate the text when I studied English Lit for my GCSEs and A Levels so I don't have a problem with it per se. Often I've thought it would be a good idea to make some notes, especially if I'm leading a discussion at book group but never seem to have a pencil handy for that purpose. In fact, I have a note book and I write my ideas for discussion questions, observations and favourite quotes/excerpts (if I can find them) and the like in a separate notebook.
Christopher wrote: "I realize that I am stating the obvious, but I do NOT 'scribble' in any book but my own. I also do NOT dog-ear pages of any book. I use nice bookmarks (I collect them, in fact)."Somehow your note got this response working in me.
I used to collect bookmarks,
not on purpose just tucked
one per book, forgotten unless,
by chance, I picked a volume up
to read again and found it there,
a little gem of memories,
holding thoughts I'd once let go.
Some were gifts I treasured
from lovers I had known;
and some were moments' trinkets
from trips on which I'd gone.
When I parted with my books
to move into a smaller space,
I gave them to libraries, but
the marks I burned to ash and smoke
as memories I must let go.
(c)2010
Kenneth wrote: "Christopher wrote: "I realize that I am stating the obvious, but I do NOT 'scribble' in any book but my own. I also do NOT dog-ear pages of any book. I use nice bookmarks (I collect them, in fact..."Awesome poem, Ken! What a lovely little tale you've told with it, and much rings true with me. I am going to save this, if you don't mind. Thank you so much for sharing! Cheers! Chris
By the bye, I notice you are in Arizona; I lived in Phoenix for 25+ years, and have been over here in SoCal for ten years now.
Please do keep the poem. Feel free to share it as long as you give greedy little me credit. Where in So.Cal? We were just in San Diego, went to Lear. Great performance, especially the staging.
Are you on Facebook, which is where I do most of my internet socializing?
Kenneth wrote: "Please do keep the poem. Feel free to share it as long as you give greedy little me credit. Where in So.Cal? We were just in San Diego, went to Lear. Great performance, especially the staging.
Ar..."
Thank you for the poem, and I shall attribute you! I may even post it on my literary blog.
I am on FB here-- http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/lo...
By the way, do you like the poetry of Thomas Hardy? The reason I ask is two-fold: first, looking at the short blurbs on your two novels 'feel' kind of Hardyan; and secondly, you're obviously a poet and student of poetry. I just started delving into "The Complete Poems of Thomas Hardy" (edited by James Gibson) and I'm just floored at what a tremendous poet he is! Cheers! Chris
Like Hardy, especially the novels. What a great compare, thanks. Ken
Speaking of marginalia - in my college days, I was reading my husband's copy of Portrait of the Artist, and he, a very clever fellow, had lots of things underlined. I always liked reading his annotated books, and seeing what he thought was important or interesting. This time, however, as I pondered each underlined bit, I could not see the import of them. I read on, speculating about these important little quotes. Finally I asked him. "I just don't see the meaning these things you have underlined." "I was thinking of doing an essay on the use of the color yellow," he said. Well, no wonder I didn't get it.
Joanna wrote: "Speaking of marginalia - in my college days, I was reading my husband's copy of Portrait of the Artist, and he, a very clever fellow, had lots of things underlined. I always liked reading his anno..."Oh, that's too funny, Joanna!
This may not be the best place for this question, but we are talking about notes and marginalia.
I lovelovelove my Kindle, but I struggle with keeping notes on it for book group reads. I have an extra-difficult time when reading a classic that I've purchased as part of a huge "collected works" set. In that case, for example, searching for text will search the entire collection rather than just the one work I'm interested in. Does anyone have any tips for making Kindle-style marginalia?
Off to "friend" Chris on FB. Must warn that my FB post this morning gets a little TMI-ish with all my lady friends chiming in about hot flash remedies. ;-)
I lovelovelove my Kindle, but I struggle with keeping notes on it for book group reads. I have an extra-difficult time when reading a classic that I've purchased as part of a huge "collected works" set. In that case, for example, searching for text will search the entire collection rather than just the one work I'm interested in. Does anyone have any tips for making Kindle-style marginalia?
Off to "friend" Chris on FB. Must warn that my FB post this morning gets a little TMI-ish with all my lady friends chiming in about hot flash remedies. ;-)
Kathy wrote: "This may not be the best place for this question, but we are talking about notes and marginalia.I lovelovelove my Kindle, but I struggle with keeping notes on it for book group reads. I have an e..."
No worries, Kathy! And I'm delighted to make your acquaintance on FB too! Cheers! Chris
Re: Introductions - I had a mini-disaster when I started the introduction to Mill on the Floss. The first sentence (which I won't quote here) gave away the whole ending of the book. I was outraged. After that, I read the author's introduction, but save the editor or commentator's till I have finished the book. Grrrr. What was that evil commentator thinking!
Joanna wrote: "Re: Introductions - I had a mini-disaster when I started the introduction to Mill on the Floss. The first sentence (which I won't quote here) gave away the whole ending of the book. I was outrage..."Setting aside your 'disaster,' wasn't "The Mill on the Floss" just a gorgeous novel. I love that novel, and could re-read it once a year for the rest of my life! Cheers! Chris
The Mill on the Floss is indeed wonderful (as is everything by Eliot) and is one of my favorite books ever. Of course, I know what happened at the end now, and it hasn't take away from my reading pleasure when I reread it, but I still get irked when I think of the nerve of that fellow.
Joanna wrote: "The Mill on the Floss is indeed wonderful (as is everything by Eliot) and is one of my favorite books ever. Of course, I know what happened at the end now, and it hasn't take away from my reading ..."I completely agree, Joanna!
I see we're a "featured" group now.
I think it means we may be getting more members. LOL
Just to add my habits to the mix... :)Intros: Never before the book, sometimes after. If it's non-fiction, I always read the intro because sometimes that's where the best material is located (and in the foot/endnotes).
Marginalia: No! Like Joy, I was taught young that writing in books is sinful (yes, libraries were my main source of books, so perhaps that explains it). For books I'm reading on my own, I do the same thing another member already described, oddly enough. I use index cards as bookmarks, and then make notes about passages, characters, etc., on the card. Then, geek that I am, I file the card away when I'm done reading the book. If it was for a class, I would use sheets of printer paper to write notes, then fold the papers into the books for easy 'filing.' Going back to some of those forgotten notes now is mildly entertaining, but I don't see a child of mine fawning over the notes I wrote. Most of them are a bit cryptic.
And, by the way, how cool is it that we are 'featured'!!!! Yay group!
Paula wrote: "I use index cards as bookmarks, and then make notes about passages, characters, etc., on the card."I would need about fifty index cards for some books, and that would make for a pretty unwieldy bookmark!
Paula wrote: "Just to add my habits to the mix... :)Intros: Never before the book, sometimes after. If it's non-fiction, I always read the intro because sometimes that's where the best material is located (and ..."
Kinda too bad you see it that way, Paula. My daughter absolutely loves sitting in our library and going through my books (especially those that she has read) and reading my comments. She has flat-out told me how much it means to her. Now that is cool!
Perhaps just a difference of opinion, Chris, as I'm not sure what is so bad about my comment, really. I think it's great that your daughter enjoys your notes so much, but the little I have written is, as I said, a bit cryptic, and there really isn't much there. Now, if my child reads books that I own and have read, and we chat about them and re/discover them together, that would be cool as all get out to me. Alas, I don't come from a big family of readers, so as someone who did not read their parents notes, but went my own path, perhaps I'm just projecting what I experienced.
Not sure where else to share this. We're in Utah visiting the Shakespeare festival. Today we suffered through the first act of Great Expectation - the musical. It was a stifling work totally cut off from the message of Dickens's great novel. There was endless repetition of music, gesture, and words.
Kenneth wrote: "Not sure where else to share this. We're in Utah visiting the Shakespeare festival. Today we suffered through the first act of Great Expectation - the musical. It was a stifling work totally cut of..."I'd say "welcome to Utah" but that sounds ghastly and embarassing! Hope the rest of your stay and experience turns out better!
Paula wrote: "Perhaps just a difference of opinion, Chris, as I'm not sure what is so bad about my comment, really. I think it's great that your daughter enjoys your notes so much, but the little I have written ..."Paula, I wasn't saying that what you do is a bad thing, I meant it simply in the fashion you articulated in the very next sentence of your posting. My 'bad' for the poor choice of the word 'bad.' ;-)
Kenneth wrote: "Not sure where else to share this. We're in Utah visiting the Shakespeare festival. Today we suffered through the first act of Great Expectation - the musical. It was a stifling work totally cut of..."Too bad, because I bet you were looking forward to the Dickens. That reminds me that we have a Shakespeare festival in our state and I forever have been interested in going. I need to see what is on their calendar. Are you staying for more at your festival?
Today we got to Pride and Prejudice (no musical). It was outstanding.
Hey Chris, Hey Chris! Guess what?! I just realized somewhere that I do a lot of margin notes!! I'm trying to work my way through Paradise Lost and have a ton of notes there because it's my way of understanding the text, so that when I go back through it I can read the 'paula-ized' version without having to figure out what the author was saying all over again! Then I pulled out my copies of Homer's Iliad and Odyssey, and saw I did the same thing there, as well as the few pieces of Shakespeare I've read. So... it looks like with poetry or works that I need to 'translate' I tend to 'translate' them into my own words in the margins. I totally forgot about that until I picked up PL again tonight!
With plays it can help a lot. I always did separate notebooks of dramas read in school, breaking down scene by scene what exactly was going on and what was important about it. Very helpful with Shakespeare and the ancient Greeks in particular.
I can't believe I forgot about doing that, Susanna, but I dug through some of the dramas and such where I would have done that translation, and there it is! I apparently did that with some of my cultural and intellectual history books from grad school, which made me giggle that I had to 'translate' the intellectual history books into words I could understand at a glance later on. :)
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Victorians!
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I have a question for all of you:
How many of you read the 'Introduction' to a novel before you read the novel? And does it matter to you that there may be key elements of the plot and storyline exposed and discussed?
My Answer: I always read the 'Introduction' to any book if it includes one. An 'Introduction' is just that--it introduces the novel to me, and makes my reading experience all that much more complete. I enjoy learning more about the author's intentions, the influences behind the book, and the context that the novel is placed in before I dive into the book.
I also happen to believe that the 'intros' included in the Penguin Classics editions are some of the best I've ever read, and have truly added to my overall reading experience. I'd be interested in your perspectives. Cheers! Chris