1984 Part One

[Karin]

"I think I'd agree that the mass's consciousness would be much less if their Bible had had only a thousand words. Maybe there'd never have been a Reformation..."

What an insightful comment that I think gets at the heart of the novel! Winston's first act of rebellion or "reformation" is writing in his diary. His diary represents such an interesting connection between language and free thought, language and memory, and books and life. It seemed as though he felt compelled to write, as if writing helped him feel human.

[Karin]

"But she's a prole—and Syme had said "The proles are not human beings". So Winston really can't be expected to give anything but a "dehumanizing description"."

I agree, but like Poingu, I do see some unsettling parts of Winston's character. I think once he imagined bashing in Julia's head with a rock, and then again he imagined bashing in a man's head in the cafeteria. There does seem to be a bit of callousness in his character. I don't think Orwell is going out of his was to make Winston into a traditional hero. Even physically, Winston isn't very compelling: "he's smallish" with a "frail figure" and has a varicose ulcer above his ankle.

[Karin]

Traveller wrote: " just think of what people are prepared to believe when it comes from positions of authority - when people's parents, teachers or religion tells them something, or if they see it in print."

So true, Traveller! I think it's pretty obvious that Big Brother is a combination of Hitler and Stalin (the mustache!). What is interesting to me is how Big Brother is almost elevated to a god-like status. He never appears in person--he is a male, dominant figure who is always watching. Hitler wanted to do the same thing. He used myth, propaganda, art, and symbolism to elevate himself above the people, almost to a demi-god status. Almost like a pseudo-religion.

[Karin]

Poingu wrote: people still come out of them writing their poetry, speaking their banned languages, loving their children, singing forbidden anthems, practicing religions that would have condemned them to death if discovered. I don't think that's naive hope, I think it's proven by history...even if I sound a little bit like Princess Leia."

Poingu, it seems like you're ready to move on, but could I linger for a minute on your fascinating point? I agree with you that totalitarian regimes often implode (East Berlin, Russia, China, stirrings in the Arab world--though North Korea seems to be surprisingly resilient). But I wonder if it would be safe to say that just the attempt to control people, whether in fascism, socialism, communism, capitalism is dangerous, and that's what Orwell was warning us about about? While the human spirit is resilient (the Jews were able to hold onto their culture even Hitler tried to destroy their culture and memory), the scars are there forever. Hopefully that makes sense :)

[Traveller]

Karin wrote: "I agree, but like Poingu, I do see some unsettling parts of Winston's character. I think once he imagined bashing in Julia's head with a rock, and then again he imagined bashing in a man's head in the cafeteria. There does seem to be a bit of callousness in his character. I don't think Orwell is going out of his was to make Winston into a traditional hero. Even physically, Winston isn't very compelling: "he's smallish" with a "frail figure" and has a varicose ulcer above his ankle..."

I think you guys are misreading callousness for fear. He is so afraid that he literally almost cr***s in his pants when he thinks the girl with dark hair (Julia) has been following him as a spy and now has info on him which would lead to him being tortured to death.

The human survival instinct is a very strong thing, and Orwell is here showing us a phenomenon that typically happened in Nazi Germany, Francoist Spain and the Soviet regime, and to a smaller extent in Fascist Italy - people informing on friends and even family members in order to save their own hides. (I suspect this kind of thing is still going on in various totalitarian countries)
...so yeah, he is frantically thinking of ways to escape what he thinks is his inevitable fate.

...and yes, Orwell has made Winston a very frail and human character, and therefore a realistic character - one that typically represents most people - I don't think he was meant to be some kind of hero in shining armor. :)

PS, remember at the start of the book people were shown some anti-semitic newsreels and how they all cheered at the demise of the people in the boat, and how, even if it actually made you sick to your stomach, you at least had to pretend you were cheering because the cameras were watching you?

Orwell is showing us what the world FEELS like in such a tightly-controlled highly manipulative dictatorship. The fear is almost palpable right from the start.

[Traveller]

Karin wrote: "Poingu wrote: people still come out of them writing their poetry, speaking their banned languages, loving their children, singing forbidden anthems, practicing religions that would have condemned t..."

I totally agree that at SOME point in time repressive regimes eventually fail, but wow, it can take a very very long time before they do. The repressive part of Roman rule went on for more than 400 years, for example, and the repressive rule of the Roman Catholic Church for around 600? (I'm talking of the rule via Inquisition where 'heretics' would be tortured before they were executed.)

The Soviet rule carried on for around 70 years and the Francoist regime for about 35 years. You could have lived your entire lifetime in one of those regimes and never have tasted freedom from fear. You could have lived your entire lifetime in regimes where you family is broken apart because some of your family members were 'vaporised' because they didn't toe the party line enough - or were seen as not doing it enough.

[Saski]

Traveller wrote: "Karin wrote: "Me, too, Traveller. I'm still catching up on the reading. I think there is so much more to comment/expand on! I'm almost to Part 2 :)"

Oh good, I was wondering if you're actually reading or just casually dipping in - glad you're still with us!

...but tell me, did you also discern a bit of a homoerotic feeling there with O'Brien? ..."

That didn't feel homoerotic to me. For some reason he senses in O'Brian another rebellious soul, and the character he then fantasizes about is based on that feeling, rather than sex. I would think certainly folks expressed themselves differently back then. :)

But maybe I misunderstood your comment....

[Traveller]

Ruth wrote: "That didn't feel homoerotic to me. For some reason he senses in O'Brian another rebellious soul, and the character he then fantasizes about is based on that feeling, rather than sex.
."

I'd say that's fair. It was the "prizefighter physique" bit that Orwell threw into the same paragraph as saying that Winston felt attracted to O'Brien that threw me a bit. It might simply have been co-incidence rather than a conscious hint that Winston might be bi. :) Thinking back, Orwell does tend to describe his characters' physiques, so it's probably just part of that.

[Saski]

Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "Traveller wrote: "Well, this passage doesn't seem too misogynistic, quite the opposite?"

Perhaps it's not, but Winston himself admits to being misogynistic, at least in its most simple definition:..."

I agree, Derek, I see it creeping in. I think for me it is more obvious because although I am American I haven't lived there since 1992 and often esp in the beginning several years would go by between visits. So just like one might notice aging in someone you don't see as often (as opposed to those who live with that person), I noticed more. Unfortunately, I didn't write down my impressions. The ones that are clear in my memory is how much aggressive customs officers were after 9/11 when I was coming in from North Cyprus via Turkey and how that aggressiveness disappeared once I moved to Sweden.

But this abridgment of freedoms didn't just burst on the scene after 9/11. It had been growing throughout the last century. I was somewhat aware of it because I listened to non-mainstream media, but it was a discussion in my ESL class that clarified it for me. I had a group, mostly of well-to-do Chinese and other Asians and lower middle class Mexicans. I asked people why they had come to the USA. "Oh," exclaimed the Asians, "For the great freedoms you have in this country." The Mexicans stared at them in disbelief, and one blurted out, "Freedoms?! I am far more free in Mexico than I ever am here."

Granted, freedom means different things to different people and different kinds of freedoms exist in different countries. Each country has more tolerance for certain abridgments of some freedoms. Oceania is a caricature. Reality is far more subtle and thus for me, scarier.

[Derek]

I'd say Winston is callous (and afraid), but it's in the same way that a five-year old child is callous, because the child doesn't understand consequences. The people of Oceania are emotionally stunted intentionally by Big Brother, and it's not unusual to see them acting like five-year-olds. I have more to say about this in part two...

[Derek]

Oh... don't fear everybody with a mustache! Mustaches are good... trust me.

[Derek]

Poingu wrote: "I just read, about a memoir just published by a Guantanamo prisoner..."

Well, that was a depressing read, but I was heartened by the commentary which was mostly well-thought, and nearly unanimously against America's government behaving in such an un-American way, in complete contravention of its own laws, constitution, and international treaties.

[Saski]

Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "Poingu wrote: "I just read, about a memoir just published by a Guantanamo prisoner..."

Well, that was a depressing read, but I was heartened by the commentary which was mostly well-thought, and ne..."

Here, here, Derek! One thing about the Internet, it is so much easier to find articles now.

[Saski]

Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "Some things seem a little off. Winston says "the arrests invariably happen at night", and then writes in his diary "they always shoot you in the back of the back of the neck". How does he know? ..."

I suspect that is part of the Thought Police's job, to spread rumours about what happens to such people.

[Saski]

Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "The technology didn't exist to do that in his day, but now Amazon admits that they do that to your e-books."

Really? I did a search but couldn't find it. Would love to know where you got this info. Not that I doubt you, on the contrary, I am sure it is true.

[Garima]

My apologies, especially to Trav for not being able to participate in this awesome discussion. I'm not getting much internet time lately and when I do, my WiFi plays a spoilsport. On top of that I got distracted with other books. OK enough of my stupid woes.

...and yes, Orwell has made Winston a very frail and human character, and therefore a realistic character - one that typically represents most people - I don't think he was meant to be some kind of hero in shining armor.

I agree with Trav and Karin. It was a realization that didn't come to me immediately. I had other, more heroic expectations from Winston's character but at the end of the day, he had to be someone who could represent the majority during such oppressive time. His frustration gave birth to so many emotions that also include a desire for leaving a kind of testimony, a warning for the future generation.

But again, I'm wary about his views on women in general and the reasons for the same, however valid they are provides little consolation during some instances.

[Traveller]

Ruth wrote: "Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "The technology didn't exist to do that in his day, but now Amazon admits that they do that to your e-books."

Really? I did a search but couldn't find it. W..."

Yes. There's a thing called regionalization. They change books written by non-Americans to appear more American.

[Derek]

Ruth wrote: "Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "The technology didn't exist to do that in his day, but now Amazon admits that they do that to your e-books."

Really? I did a search but couldn't find it. W..."

Hmm. From mobileread.com, somewhere, I'm sure. But this page on Amazon implies that authors publishing on Kindle can choose to make updates automatic (there might be another way to read it, though). Normally, users choose whether to accept updates (though Amazon will absolutely REMOVE a book from your kindle if it finds you're not in a location licensed for its use).

I expect regionalization is not quite the same: that it probably comes as part of the publishing process.

[Traveller]

Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "I expect regionalization is not quite the same: that it probably comes as part of the publishing process.."

Oh, okay, not the same thing, but it's still a huge liberty to take, don't you think? What about the people who prefer to read the book in its original form? It just seems like another form of censorship and yet another dumbing down of the US citizen's sensibilities regarding the fact that there actually does exist a world outside the borders of the USA.

[Traveller]

Garima wrote: "My apologies, especially to Trav for not being able to participate in this awesome discussion. I'm not getting much internet time lately and when I do, my WiFi plays a spoilsport. On top of that I ..."

Hi Garima! I admit that i was hoping you would see some things of value in the novel beside the sexism issue, which i cannot really comment on yet, because i haven't read enough of the novel yet. But to me there was already a lot of value to see in the book in part one alone.

I suppose I didn't expect much of Winston's character because I'm pretty much used to anti-heroes and atypical protagonists by now. But i think one of the big things that shaped my expectations is having read We first, and in that novel, the protagonist was very obviously intentionally emotionally stunted. It made for an extremely sad love story in the end. So let me get on with 1984 and see what happens with Winston and Julia- I'm going to move on to the thread for part 2 for comments on that. :)

And just as a reminder, thread 2 is here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

[Saski]

Traveller wrote: "Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "I expect regionalization is not quite the same: that it probably comes as part of the publishing process.."

yet another dumbing down of the US citizen's sensibilities regarding the fact that there actually does exist a world outside the borders of the USA."

Wait a minute...! Traveller? You mean that there IS a world outside the borders of the USA? Oh my, that's scary!

[Saski]

I definitely see it as another 'dumbing down', though I suspect that they see it as 'making books more accessible to the population.' GRRRRR!

[Derek]

Traveller wrote: "Oh, okay, not the same thing, but it's still a huge liberty to take, don't you think? What about the people who prefer to read the book in its original form?"

But publishers have always done that. I read a Lee Child (Reacher) novel last year, and the bad guys were speaking English-english ("tyre" and "kerb"...) and I was so sure it was a clue. Until I realized I'd got hold of an English edition.

[Traveller]

Ruth wrote: "I definitely see it as another 'dumbing down', though I suspect that they see it as 'making books more accessible to the population.' GRRRRR!"

Oh yes, that is of course the apparent reason for it. But it's like keeping your baby in a walker until he/she is 16 years old - they're never going to learn to walk on their own legs that way.

It also encourages a kind of cultural solopsism- an expectation that the entire world should conform to US culture and standards. (As if they haven't to a huge extent already.... ;) )

[Traveller]

Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "But publishers have always done that. I read a Lee Child (Reacher) novel last year, and the bad guys were speaking English-english ("tyre" and "kerb"...) and I was so sure it was a clue. Until I realized I'd got hold of an English edition..."

To make the whole phenomenon even more incredibly annoying, it's almost impossible to get hold of copies of books outside of the region you currently reside at, unless you keep Amazon accounts open in various parts of the world - and these days, to keep them open you have to resort to devious tricks, because if they pick up that your IP address has changed, they lock down the account until you have changed the account to the region that the IP address is from. You get an e-mail saying- "Have you recently moved? Amazon has reason to believe that you are not currently living in the region that this store serves."

Sheesh! Talk about Big Brother creepiness!

[Derek]

Traveller wrote: " You get an e-mail saying- "Have you recently moved? Amazon has reason to believe that you are not currently living in the region that this store serves."

Sheesh! Talk about Big Brother creepiness! "

Interesting. Amazon knows I'm in Canada, and frequently tries to encourage me to convert to Amazon.ca, but has never sent me such an email (just a note on their front page) or stopped me from buying Kindle books from the US store (though I can't actually download the books without a US IP address). My biggest problem is actually getting it to let me use my amazon.ca account when I want to...

But, yeah, what the Internet companies know about us is scary, and I try to limit it as much as possible.

[Saski]

Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "Finished part 1. Scattered thoughts...

It was when Winston was talking to the old prole in the pub that I had my only moment of total incomprehension: "And ‘yenas—‘e definitely called ‘em ‘yenas." I must have stared at that for minutes before it struck me that it was simply a dropped Cockney "Haitch". "

Thank you for that, Derek. I wouldn't have figured this one out myself. Another one a bit further down in the same scene is: I'll give you in charge in 'alf a minute. What is 'charge' here?

[Traveller]

Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "Traveller wrote: " You get an e-mail saying- "Have you recently moved? Amazon has reason to believe that you are not currently living in the region that this store serves."

Sheesh! Talk about Big..."

I think that Canada and the US broadly fall into the same region as far as publishing rights are concerned, which is why I suspect that they're almost interchangeable, although Canadian stores are MUCH less strict with regionalism with most products like movies and videogames and the like. The big problem, in my experience, lies between US vs Britian, US vs Europe (okay, I have only had experience re France in that regard) and Britain vs Europe.

[Garima]

Traveller wrote: "Garima wrote: "My apologies, especially to Trav for not being able to participate in this awesome discussion. I'm not getting much internet time lately and when I do, my WiFi plays a spoilsport. On..."

Yeah! I better comment on other relevant issues too (sexism has haltered my read actually and this is probably my way to voice my frustration ;)). Though it won't be near as insightful as yours and that of others since my exposure to non-fiction readings is limited. Thanks for reminding about We. It was on my mind shelf for quite a while.

[Derek]

Ruth wrote: "I'll give you in charge in 'alf a minute. What is 'charge' here?"

It's the phrase "in charge", and I'm pretty sure he means to call the police.

Traveller, book publishing rights are actually very different in Canada and the US, which is why on both Canadian and US editions you'll often see "published simultaneously in the US and Canada" on the copyright page. And why our e-books are typically $11-$14 for books available in the US for $7-10. And why I have an Amazon US account...

[Traveller]

Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "Ruth wrote: "I'll give you in charge in 'alf a minute. What is 'charge' here?"

It's the phrase "in charge", and I'm pretty sure he means to call the police.

Traveller, book publishing rights are ..."

Yes, but on the other hand, about 3-4 years ago, I used to pretty often find the exact-same game or film/TV series cheaper in Canadian stores than US ones. (Taking into account the difference between US and Canadian $.) Mmm, maybe the exchange rates were different then though?

[Karin]

Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "Oh... don't fear everybody with a mustache! Mustaches are good... trust me."

Well, you seem pretty nice, so if you have a mustache, then I guess they aren't exclusively a sign of megalomania :)

[Saski]

Traveller wrote: "Notes about Goldstein:

He was abusing Big Brother, he was denouncing the dictatorship of the Party, he was demanding the immediate conclusion of peace with Eurasia, he was advocating freedom of sp..."

The Newspeak Dictionary has some interesting suggestions on the root of the Goldstein character: http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/ns-...

[Traveller]

Just as well that I'm going through the threads again, because I had missed this lovely and insightful comment by Karin before: Karin wrote: "" Winston's first act of rebellion or "reformation" is writing in his diary. His diary represents such an interesting connection between language and free thought, language and memory, and books and life. It seemed as though he felt compelled to write, as if writing helped him feel human.."

[Traveller]

Garima wrote: "Traveller wrote: "Garima wrote: "My apologies, especially to Trav for not being able to participate in this awesome discussion. I'm not getting much internet time lately and when I do, my WiFi play..."

Garima, please don't feel intimidated or anything to say your thing about the sexism. Really, please. :)

You and Karin had started to half-convince me already... just, I really disliked that Berlatsky's guy's angle, it seemed so shallow and as if he was jumping onto a bandwagon, that he probably managed to make me defend the novel more than i would have, had i not felt indignant about what Berlatsky was saying.

[Saski]

hmmm, it seems my tablet won't let me 'reply'. Anyway, in response to those who were saying we are not in the age of 1984, I offer this article: http://www.mnn.com/green-tech/gadgets...

[Cecily]

Traveller wrote: "Talking of the ministries, the Ministry of Love doesn't sound like a very, er.. loving place, or even a friendly place, does it? Does anyone find Orwell's obvious irony a bit in your face? ..."

Just as the Ministry of Truth is responsible for lies, and the Ministry of Plenty organises rationing and the Ministry of Peace wages war. Another variant of War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery.

[Cecily]

poingu wrote: "Ok, another thing that is different for me from my last reading: Winston is such a classist!..
I don't know if I can forgive Winston for his lack of pity for "the proles,"... (even as he thinks somehow that hope lies with them).
The scene where he visits an "old" prostitute has no hint of compassion for her in it, only revulsion and dehumanizing descriptions of her..."

How much pity do the proles need? They have more freedom than Winston and other lowly Party members.

As for the lack of compassion for the prostitute, I saw that more a matter of Winston's misogyny than anything classist. Several other posts related to sexism, but even allowing for when it was written it was really nasty:

Winston “disliked nearly all women, and especially the young pretty ones… who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party” and he quickly goes from wanting to rape and murder a woman (he even tells her!) to lusting after “her youthful body desperate for him” and feeling “he had a right to” her.

[Traveller]

Cecily wrote: "Traveller wrote: "Talking of the ministries, the Ministry of Love doesn't sound like a very, er.. loving place, or even a friendly place, does it? Does anyone find Orwell's obvious irony a bit in y..."

Yeah, the 'doublespeak' that is expounded more on later on in the book.

Re Winston's misogyny, note that it manifests itself before he admits to himself that he is in love with Julia. He has the same emotional stuntedness that the narrator of We has.

[Cecily]

Traveller wrote: "Re Winston's misogyny, note that it manifests itself before he admits to himself that he is in love with Julia

Well yes, but he tells Julia he'd wanted to rape and kill her as he's drooling over her young body. Also, if love changes him, is that very different from people who were, and continue to be, racist - except for the one nice family they know from work or church or whatever?

[Traveller]

Cecily wrote: "Traveller wrote: "Re Winston's misogyny, note that it manifests itself before he admits to himself that he is in love with Julia

Well yes, but he tells Julia he'd wanted to rape and kill her as he..."

As I mentioned elsewhere in this regard: one should be careful of conflating the author of a book with any of his characters. Just as Nabokov is not Humbert, and Faulkner is not Bertie, so is Orwell not Winston, of course. (Not sure if you are saying that Orwell is misogynistic just because Winston is, and I apologize if that was not what you were implying, but it almost feels as if you are. )

As for Winston's misogyny being "unchallenged", I think you might find this point of view interesting:
https://slutocracy.wordpress.com/2013...
- I had pretty similar thoughts about the love-interest in We, although to me the female character in We does come across as a lot stronger - once again that might depend on POV.

To me it seemed pretty clear that Winston hates women partly because he is indoctrinated and partly because he is sexually frustrated. ...and yes, it is nasty, but just adds to the grimness of the book for me - to that quality of utter realism. In many respects, to me Orwell is FAR ahead of most of his pussyfooting, sugar-coating contemporaries in this regard.

[Cecily]

I agree there's an important distinction between Orwell's and Winston's beliefs (though I don't know enough about Orwell to know how they might differ). Apologies if I muddied the waters.

Plenty of food for thought in that link. Regarding the specific lack of slut shaming, Winston actually goes further than the post suggests: not only does he not think Julia slutty for her clothes and eagerness for sex, but he positively LIKES the fact she's been promiscuous (I need a less pejorative word).

I keep meaning to read We, but I've read too many dystopias lately, not all of them enjoyable, plus I want to read China Mieville's short story collection reasonably soon...