Ersatz TLS discussion
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Weekly TLS
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What Are We Reading? 23 Nov 2020
Response to message 249:MK wrote:
https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/such-a-b...
H'm.
Well, I tried to read a book by Susan Hill once, but didn't think much of it. Fortunately, it was a library book, so I didn't waste my money! I'm pleased about that, now.
scarletnoir wrote: "Reply to message 248:Justine wrote: "scarletnoir (236) wrote: "Response to message 225
...Balloon debate (248)"
Oh, yes. I witnessed this once done in the final session of an adult class. The problem was that it led to some bad feeling: individuals who were jettisoned felt hurt or even angry ... not that anyone HERE would be so petty or thin-skinned, but maybe it's best left as intended, as a 'not altogether serious suggestion'.
SydneyH wrote: "Machenbach wrote: "Kant makes this point in the COJ"Now there's a deadly text :)
I think passing aesthetic judgments has become unfashionable in academic circles, but I really value a considered ..."
I'm a big fan of Kantian thought but you do need a stubborn, dour outlook to plough through some of his bigger works
scarletnoir wrote: "Response to message 249:MK wrote:
https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/such-a-b...
H'm.
Well, I tried to read a book by Susan Hill once, but didn't think muc..."
oh dear...i wont be reading any more Susan Hill...ughhh
Gladarvor wrote (252): "Justine wrote: "I dislike 'social zooming' for some reason (probably because I can see my face in that little box) - prefer email or phone."Ah, if that's your main gripe with it, you can very eas..."
When I attend zoom meetings, as I did this morning (an AGM), I either sit aside from the laptop screen or black out my box - but that seems a little cold for meeting with relatives. I'm not keen on them seeing how ragged I look after these last eight or nine months of illness; that would cause them extra worry.
And I too love pumpkin pie, but would get through a whole one.
But many thanks for the Thanksgiving Day greeting!
Lljones wrote (254): "While looking through the menu for GR Lists, I came across a GR feature I'd forgotten about: Quizzes. Here's one.The Finish These Quotes from Your Favorite Books quiz
Again, any GR member can cr..."
And my fiendishly difficult December quiz will be with you on December 7th.
MK wrote: "My library trove from yesterday's pick up included - Mrs. Malory and the Festival Murder by Hazel Holt. Well that name brings back distant memories, I must look up some of her later novels. I think thy come under the classification or cozy mysteries!
To Greenfairy - I tried sending you a message, but it didn't work. Anyway, thanks for the book recommendation - perfect!
MK wrote: "https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/such-a-b..."In re: Susan Hill, post 249.
Ms Hill, who lives in north Norfolk, said: 'I do not expect a bookshop to have posters and a Twitter feed and a Facebook page telling me it is so against what the President of the United States stands for/believes/is/is doing that it is stocking only books devoted to those writers who oppose him too, and what is more, will give them away free.There it is again, US politics intrudes into a situation where it would seem to be irrelevant: a British citizen living outside the US getting agitated about a perceived slight to a US political figure. Is any Anglophone anywhere upset that Emmanuel Macron’s Revolution is available in English but, apparently, nothing by Marine Le Pen is?
'Needless to say, the opposite is also true. You will not find Donald Trump's autobiography here, or anything by those authors known to support/admire/have voted for him.'
By the way, in my puzzlement over foreign interest in US politics last week, there was a mention about the popularity of the TV show The West Wing. Yesterday at the supermarket, I noticed at checkout that there was a special edition of the magazine Entertainment Weekly: “The Ultimate Guide to The West Wing”. So evidently it’s still going strong in its native land as well.
Georg wrote: *even I can find, every once in while,a book that is in my want-to-read-list compiled from TLSMy such list is like Topsy - it just grew!
Last year at this time I bought John Stanley - John Stanley: Giving Life To Little Lulu during Fantagraphics Black Friday Sale. I did that because Little Lulu was my first ever subscription, and a new issue of the comic arrived each month. (I must have been about 7.) So in preparation for tomorrow's sale I went to -
https://blog.fantagraphics.com/the-fa... (30% off with free shipping (stateside only I imagine or 40% discount on Cyber Monday on everything on the website!)
I've pretty much decided I'll buy The Flapper Queens: Women Cartoonists Of The Jazz Age on Friday.
Anyone out there in ErsatzTLS land who likes comics might want to take a look at their offerings.
Note: I expect I am prejudiced as Seattle is their home base.
Justine wrote: "Lljones wrote (254): "While looking through the menu for GR Lists, I came across a GR feature I'd forgotten about: Quizzes. Here's one.The Finish These Quotes from Your Favorite Books quiz
Again..."
You know, I think this group might turn out to be in many ways a positive improvement on the old Graun!
Alwynne wrote: "MK (268) wrote: "Last year at this time I bought John Stanley - John Stanley: Giving Life To Little Lulu during Fantagraphics Black Friday Sale. I did that because Little Lulu was m..."I'm also looking a Streets of Paris, Streets of Murder: The Complete Graphic Noir of Manchette Tardi Vol. 1
MK wrote: "I'm also looking a Streets of Paris, Streets of Murder: The Complete Graphic Noir of Manchette Tardi Vol. 1"Yes, I've just checked this one. I don't know the scenarist, but Jacques Tardi is 'incontournable' and had many excellent and very successful collaborations in the past. The French wiki entry is encouraging on this series...
Reply to 257Justine wrote: "Balloon debate (248)"
Oh, yes. I witnessed this once done in the final session of an adult class. The problem was that it led to some bad feeling: individuals who were jettisoned felt hurt or even angry ... not that anyone HERE would be so petty or thin-skinned, but maybe it's best left as intended, as a 'not altogether serious suggestion'
I'm amused that this caused bad feeling and grief, unless the organiser was daft enough to allow the participants to represent themselves...? That would not be a good idea! Still, I have noticed that some individuals get quite upset if one of us (me) dislikes a book they worship. I'm more laid back about all that - people have different tastes and requirements, and I'm sure that someone said something along the lines of 'a book is re-invented with each new reader'. Books can't possibly have the same effect, or gain the same response, from individuals with different backgrounds, histories and interests.
As you say, though - I'm happy to let the jokey suggestion lie!
Bill wrote about "my puzzlement over foreign interest in US politicsWell, Bill - it's not that surprising (in real life), as like it or not, the USA is an economic superpower - so those of us living in various shithole countries have to take note of which way the wind is blowing across the Atlantic. Therefore, who wins the presidential election matters to all of us, as it'll likely affect political and trade relations.
If you are referring to fictional representations of US politics, though, then I understand your point. I never felt much motivated to watch The West Wing, for example, and haven't done so. I doubt that I have ever bothered to watch Mr Smith goes to Washington either, despite the involvement of James Stewart and Frank Capra.
It's what happens in the real world that matters, in politics. Sometimes, fiction can influence that - but I would not overstate that case.
Lljones wrote: "Hey, Willy Vlautin fans - there's a new one coming!The Night Always Comes"
Oh, excellent. Now, if he'd just go give Smith Henderson a kick in the ass, we'll all be good
Alwynne wrote(264): " I understand that it's the fact that I dislike 'H is for Hawk' that was an issue for you. No, it actually wasn't :-)
I just grabbed it because the title looked and sounded familiar. When at home I saw that it was less about the hawk (which I had expected) and more about the author. I am not into self-help/overcomig-some-personal trauma books at all.
It went back unread. I didn't even give it a try.
From what you said I too would probably have disliked it.
Bill wrote (265): Is any Anglophone anywhere upset that Emmanuel Macron’s Revolution is available in English but, apparently, nothing by Marine Le Pen is? In my experience few English/British people are interested in Europe. First and foremost they look towards the US, then Australia.
When I worked there the only colleagues who ever asked me about Germany were from India or Pakistan.
I once saw a short documentary, made roughly 2 years after the referendum. It was filmed in one of the posher parts of London. They showed various people on the street a blank map of Europe with dots marking the biggest cities. I was really surprised how many couldn't point to, say Switzerland, or Berlin. Roughly 1 correct answer in every 3.
scarletnoir wrote (273): I have noticed that some individuals get quite upset if one of us (me) dislikes a book they worship. Ha! I got quite upset when you said you had liked "My Sister, the Serial Killer" ;-)
Georg wrote: "scarletnoir wrote (273): I have noticed that some individuals get quite upset if one of us (me) dislikes a book they worship. Ha! I got quite upset when you said you had liked "My Sister, the Ser..."
There you go... it seemed an amusing entertainment, to me - not to be taken too seriously. I certainly find it odd that anyone would get upset by an opinion on this book, either positive or negative!
I'd only get upset if someone claimed to like something along the lines of Mein Kampf, or similar!
I am currently reading Georges Simenon's Signe Picpus (Signed, Picpus)...Signed, PicpusWhat a pleasure! The mature Simenon wrote with a wonderful economy, blending narrative, dialogue, description and pen portraits of the protagonists... what a pity he was 'represented' on the old Guardian book club by two untypical books.
Although the set-up is far fetched in Picpus, what follows is an example of how to write narrative which blends pace and clarity, whilst also at times becoming poetic and somewhat indirect. In contrast to the early melodramas, here Maigret uses his method of immersing himself in the lives and milieu(s) of the protagonists, the better to unravel the mystery. As he says himself, he has 'no method'... it is only through understanding the characters and setting that he can solve the crime.
Here is a typical passage (my translation) describing an elderly man who was found at the scene of the crime... he has suffered some sort of mental problem, and is bullied by his wife and daughter:
"He stayed in his bedroom, as a well trained dog stays in his kennel when there are visitors. Maigret would have liked to see him again, to speak to him. Sympathy is not quite the right word. He feels drawn to the personality, it feels as if he is starting to understand him, or rather to sense the mystery of his miserable life."
Re books on European politics Do you think that the problem lies in the fact that so little European non fiction /politics is translated? You can’t read what you can’t get hold of. Even if you speak one or two European languages, you can’t speak them all to read in the original. And that isn’t for everyone anyway. So we rely on the publishers to choose for us and the cost of translating and printing small runs must be be prohibitive. American publications are already in English. So the practicalities play a large role.
Secondly, when I was in Germany I was struck by how much English I could hear and see around me (music, ads, TV programmes etc) That creates an acceptance of language learning and a certain openness to other languages which does not exist in the UK. Even if you WANT to find out about current affairs, what’s happening in culture in Germany or France, finding that information is not obvious and you have to make a concerted effort. There is, for example, no regular update on European politics on the news. It is usually only mentioned in the context of how it affects the UK. So no diverse ideas or viewpoints. Because of this lack of input, you then create fertile ground for the Little England mentality.
We teachers of modern languages, used to bemoan the fact we couldn’t get hold of information and keep up to date with what was happening. Going round a bookshop in Germany, France or Italy, I was always impressed to see so many books translated from English.
Georg wrote: "Bill wrote (265): Is any Anglophone anywhere upset that Emmanuel Macron’s Revolution is available in English but, apparently, nothing by Marine Le Pen is? In my experience few English/British peo..."
i think in general that is true, i come from a very europhile family and grew up with my parents circle of friends who were of a similar persuasion. This is probably similar to a small minority of Brits, maybe 20-30%, mostly concentrated in wealthier parts of London and the South East
I'm a pro-EU, pro-european but i am aware my little island is a different place in small ways than the european mainland, by nature of being an island maybe. The vile bastardisation of the Churchill legend by Farage and co really fustrates me and its got a huge pull for the little englander contingent
I think the little englander idea has always been there, from the days of empire dawning but for reasons that maybe, just maybe seemed logical then. Now, with the UK in its 75th year of faded glory, its looks petty and rather myopic
Storm wrote: "Re books on European politics Do you think that the problem lies in the fact that so little European non fiction /politics is translated? You can’t read what you can’t get hold of. Even if you spe..."
good points, i fear that a lot of modern non-fiction concerning the EU and politics will find it hard to be published in english now brexit has happened. i hope not mind you
What If The Sun Were Never To Return by CF Ramuz (1937) is finished, a beautiful Swiss mountain classic. Ramuz mixes a modern, knowing approach to a hinted apocalypse with some unique personal touches and a swiss mountain culture of living and dyingThe translator, Michelle Bailat-Jones ponders on the way Ramuz uses the french word"on" in different ways as a narrative device, which can be a tricky thing to translate into English
A short novel but full of meaning, i heartily recommend CF Ramuz to the Ersatz TLS crew!
Next up is some MR James, fitting on a foggy cold early winter morning"Casting the Runes and other Ghost Stories" (OUP) is the volume i am planning to read and looking foward to it...
Storm wrote: "Re books on European politics Do you think that the problem lies in the fact that so little European non fiction /politics is translated? You can’t read what you can’t get hold of. Even if you spe..."
scarletnoir wrote (280): "Georg wrote: "scarletnoir wrote (273): I have noticed that some individuals get quite upset if one of us (me) dislikes a book they worship.
Ha! I got quite upset when you said you had liked "My S..."
Scarlet, that was a joke (see emoji)!
I rather appreciate people who voice their (different) opinion. Largely agree with your penultimate post and wouldn't take it personally if somebody slagged off a book I loved.
Bill (265) wrote: "MK wrote: "https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/such-a-b..."In re: Susan Hill, post 249.
Ms Hill, who lives in north Norfolk, said: 'I do not expect a booksho..."
To begin with, Susan Hill - whatever she is like as a writer - is a bit of a crank. When the London Library decided it had to raise its subscription fee by a significant amount there was a great outcry, with threats (sometimes carried through) of cancellations. Susan Hill wrote a letter to the LRB, berating the objectors. They should be happy to pay up, she argued, because lots of famous authors were members, granting lowlier types the opportunity to spot them in the reading room or stacks. Not the famous writer Susan Hill, of course, because she herself was not a member. (She said that, as a 'country member', she would need to have books mailed to her, and the postage rates were too high!)
Regarding the obsession with American politics - of course! What happens in the world's military and economic superpower affects everyone on the planet. From military bases to McDonald's, we are influenced at a multitude of levels. Meanwhile, ignorance about not only Europe, but also other parts of the world, has grown, ironically, as access to information via the internet has also ostensibly increased. As a girl growing up in the 50s, I remember being aware of events in Asia, Africa, Latin America ... My sense is that many people today are not even knowledgeable about much of what's happening in their own country, unless it's in the headlines.
Georg wrote: "Scarlet, that was a joke (see emoji)!I rather appreciate people who voice their (different) opinion. Largely agree with your penultimate post and wouldn't take it personally if somebody slagged off a book I loved".
No worries! I saw the 'wink' and misinterpreted it as:
1. I was initially annoyed by your review, but
2. soon got over it and don't mind...
(I'm all for jokes, BTW - mine are sometimes misunderstood, too!)
Mod
...the two novels that are (I think) generally held to be her best - this one and The Weather in the Streets..."
I'd add The Ballad and the Source to that list.
Justine wrote: "To Greenfairy - I tried sending you a message, but it didn't work. Anyway, thanks for the book recommendation - perfect!"You're welcome:)
Storm wrote (282): "Re books on European politics Do you think that the problem lies in the fact that so little European non fiction /politics is translated? You can’t read what you can’t get hold of. Even if you spe..."
You will not find many Americanophiles in Germany (we are rather critical of Americas role in world politics over the last 6 or so decades), but you will find lots of Anglophiles. All three bookshops in the next town from me (50000+ population) have a section 'English Books'.
As far as translations go we are indeed fortunate, but, from TLS I got the impression that the situation in the UK has improved considerably compared to how it was 10 or 20 years ago, at least for fiction.
You might be interested in arte, the German-French culture channel. Not sure if you can access it from abroad (licencing?). If you can: there are 6 languages to choose from (top right corner)
The English version:
https://www.arte.tv/en/
Machenbach wrote: "Alwynne wrote (#206): "REVIEW: Invitation to the Waltz"Thanks for this. I've read a few Lehmann and, whilst I enjoyed them, I was always left with the frustrating feeling that she could have done..."
I think you might enjoy Selina Hastings's biography.
I thought it time for a Friday poem.Spring and Fall
BY GERARD MANLEY HOPKINS
to a young child
Márgarét, áre you gríeving
Over Goldengrove unleaving?
Leáves like the things of man, you
With your fresh thoughts care for, can you?
Ah! ás the heart grows older
It will come to such sights colder
By and by, nor spare a sigh
Though worlds of wanwood leafmeal lie;
And yet you wíll weep and know why.
Now no matter, child, the name:
Sórrow’s spríngs áre the same.
Nor mouth had, no nor mind, expressed
What heart heard of, ghost guessed:
It ís the blight man was born for,
It is Margaret you mourn for.
I find myself drawn back to this poem perhaps because it seems sometimes to be addressing me. Here is Hopkins comparing childhood innocence with a life lived, approaching death.
Do I accept it? Not quite.
Childhood may not be innocent for many, their lives too harsh to grieve for fallen leaves. Looking back? No, not a time for sorrow but a sense of achievement, failure, love, loss, regret all mixed together to make a life lived, not blighted necessarily, one lived.
Am I to grieve for my mortality
Or rejoice life’s opportunity?
Alwynne wrote (275): "REVIEW 
Insel by Mina LoyMina Loy’s elusive novel is a composite of experiences and ideas taken from her life: her involvement with the surrealist moveme..."
I will probably never read this book, but I enjoyed reading your review.
Just one small detail: you say Oelze fled Nazi Germany in 1933. If that was the case: why did he move back to Germany in 1938? Doesn't make much sense to me....
Machenbach wrote: "...there's perhaps also a second order of 'liking' where we are saying much more than merely "I like it and don't care what you think or perhaps even really know why I like it", which is what Kant calls 'aesthetic judgement' and which generally takes the form not merely of "I like this book", but "This book is [quasi-objectively] great and (implicitly) everyone ought to agree with me". In this instance, and because one is at least affecting to say something about the object, there is potential for meaningful conversation or dispute: what qualities of the book are 'good' and why?You make many interesting points... I am sympathetic, and yet can't quite agree with some of them... I'm not feeling especially bright today, so will have to come back (no doubt) but....
I would never make the claim that a book is [quasi-objectively] great and (implicitly) everyone ought to agree with me". I doubt that it makes any sense to make such a claim.
I could certainly say that a book is: well-written; poetic; contains interesting ideas; links ideas to action convincingly; is well plotted; is original; has a clear and/or pacy narrative etc.
BUT I would never say that a book is 'objectively great'.
Let's take an example: Ulysses is reckoned by many critics and readers to be a 'great' book, but I don't get it. I have tried to read it twice, but have never got beyond page 100 or so... as (to me) it's incomprehensible. I don't want to be baffled for 900 pages! I don't intend to read Ulysses with 'Cole's notes' in my other hand!
I am aware - and can live with the fact - that many others would disagree. It's no problem. They have their view; I have mine.
So - to me - it isn't, and can't be, described as a 'great book' - tough. There is no objective criterion which makes it so - apart from the number of admirers, academic papers etc. No doubt, a lot of paper will be expended on the Orange One in years to come... and he got 70 million votes.
I suppose what I am trying to say - incoherently (how appropriate!) is that, no matter what logic or piece of evidence an admirer of Ulysses may adduce to support their liking for the book, my answer will always be: "Who can understand this stuff? It's a waste of (my) time". Thus, any so-called objective criteria will immediately fall by the wayside...
(In passing, I may add that I liked Dubliners and Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man, presumably written at a time when Joyce was not under the influence of magic mushrooms, or whatever....)
Machenbach wrote: "SydneyH wrote: "I think passing aesthetic judgments has become unfashionable in academic circles, but I really value a considered assessment of a literary work.."The criteria have certainly change..."
i agree on the point about the selection of books for non-aesthetic or non-formal reasons and i think its the same with publishing. I sometimes wonder if "re-discovering" books with theme that chimes with modern day co-incindences is actually that wise
But in publishing money and profit talk, in universities, i would like to see more balance and not let the wokery rot the fish from the head
A curious mind doth not suit wokery...
Machenbach wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "I would never make the claim that a book is [quasi-objectively] great and (implicitly) everyone ought to agree with me". I doubt that it makes any sense to make such a claim."..."
As Kollwitz said about herself: “Originally pity and sympathy were only minor elements leading me to representation of proletarian life, I simply found it beautiful. As Zola or someone said ‘the beautiful is the ugly’.”
As this quote from Kathe Kollwitz says, fascination is a very personal thing. I can't think of a print of hers that I would call beautiful, but most of them are powerful and arresting images and as she said herself that drawing was a way of 'interrogating' the world, whereas she believed that colourful painterly portrayals were a distraction (in a past-life I have contrasted and compared her and Otto Dix, both from the same period of history and geography, and the fact that both were immersed in portrayals of the effects of war on the human condition. I think there is no particular answer to the 'beauty' thing. There is just what is interesting to you.
I do remember however when I studied 'community' art, reaching a point where, if I ever saw another badly painted mural again, it would somehow be some sort of an affront to the soul!.... However I'm still going strong so obviously the human soul can be very resilient!...
scarletnoir wrote (#280): "There you go... it seemed an amusing entertainment, to me - not to be taken too seriously [My Sister, the Serial Killer]. I certainly find it odd that anyone would get upset by an opinion on this book, either positive or negative!I'd only get upset if someone claimed to like something along the lines of Mein Kampf, or similar!
Hmmm, I guess it is only because you merely enjoyed the former. The question is whether you'd not feel a tad upset if somebody had read the Désérable you've been championing, and upon finishing it, would call it amateurish at best, clumsy and a poor imitation Gary's style. (All of this is entirely made up I hasten to say, I have not read it although I'll keep an eye out for it!!)
It is fine I think to feel somewhat protective of books that truly matter to us, and a bit defensive if they have not been liked. This becomes almost personal because the book in question has resonated with you. It also obviously depends on how this dislike is expressed!
A return to the darkside for me with In the Forest by Edna O'Brien.
I'm not sure I've read a 'true crime' novel which sticks as closely as this does to the original murders. Perhaps unsurprisingly on its publication in 2002, it attracted plenty of controversy, the main complaint being that it was only 8 years after the shocking killings, dust had not had the chance to settle. It is understandable that an attempt to impose a fictional outline over the atrocities would stir up the grief in the local communities, and especially those more directly involved.
However, O'Brien writes with tact and sympathy, and the result is a memorial to innocence and unprovoked destruction of beauty. She excels in descriptions of the woodland early in the piece, such a contrast to its irreversible contamination by the horrors that were to follow. Along with those images of the woodland is the colourful, slightly offbeat Ireland of the 90s, musical pub sessions, and a festive atmosphere, giving effervescence to the desolation we know will follow.
Reading it 25 years after the murders is I suspect, very different; with the passing of time it is possible to see it as a sort of distorted fairy tale, the demented O'Kane, overcome by spite, the personification of terminal maladjustment.
I remember some punctuation-based discussion back in the mists of TLS time. Here are some gentle jokes with which to spend the next five minutes:• An Oxford comma walks into a bar where it spends the evening watching the television, getting drunk, and smoking cigars.
• A dangling participle walks into a bar. Enjoying a cocktail and chatting with the bartender, the evening passes pleasantly.
• A bar was walked into by the passive voice.
• An oxymoron walked into a bar, and the silence was deafening.
• Two quotation marks walk into a “bar.”
• A malapropism walks into a bar, looking for all intensive purposes like a wolf in cheap clothing, muttering epitaphs and casting dispersions on his magnificent other, who takes him for granite.
• Hyperbole totally rips into this insane bar and absolutely destroys everything.
• A question mark walks into a bar?
• A non sequitur walks into a bar. In a strong wind, even turkeys can fly.
• Papyrus and Comic Sans walk into a bar. The bartender says, "Get out -- we don't serve your type."
• A mixed metaphor walks into a bar, seeing the handwriting on the wall but hoping to nip it in the bud.
• A comma splice walks into a bar, it has a drink and then leaves.
• Three intransitive verbs walk into a bar. They sit. They converse. They depart.
• A synonym strolls into a tavern.
• At the end of the day, a cliché walks into a bar -- fresh as a daisy, cute as a button, and sharp as a tack.
• A run-on sentence walks into a bar it starts flirting. With a cute little sentence fragment.
• Falling slowly, softly falling, the chiasmus collapses to the bar floor.
• A figure of speech literally walks into a bar and ends up getting figuratively hammered.
• An allusion walks into a bar, despite the fact that alcohol is its Achilles heel.
• The subjunctive would have walked into a bar, had it only known.
• A misplaced modifier walks into a bar owned a man with a glass eye named Ralph.
• The past, present, and future walked into a bar. It was tense.
• A dyslexic walks into a bra.
• A verb walks into a bar, sees a beautiful noun, and suggests they conjugate. The noun declines.
• A simile walks into a bar, as parched as a desert.
• A gerund and an infinitive walk into a bar, drinking to forget.
• A hyphenated word and a non-hyphenated word walk into a bar and the bartender nearly chokes on the irony.
Gladarvor wrote: "The question is whether you'd not feel a tad upset if somebody had read the Désérable you've been championing, and upon finishing it, would call it amateurish at best, clumsy and a poor imitation Gary's style....It is fine I think to feel somewhat protective of books that truly matter to us, and a bit defensive if they have not been liked. This becomes almost personal because the book in question has resonated with you. It also obviously depends on how this dislike is expressed
You know, I doubt that I'd be much bothered if someone didn't like one of my favourite books, no matter what they said about it. It would simply mean that their tastes, experiences, points of reference etc. are different to my own. It would in no way affect my own judgement.
I would not like it, though, if the 'other' became personal, and accused me of being an idiot, or ignorant, for not liking a book. By all means, disagree - but politely about the book, not the critic!
Machenbach wrote: Kant's point, I think, is that when we say that a book is great...we are saying something more, or other, than merely 'I like it' and that, even though this isn't (and can't be) an objective fact (and we know that), it is objective in the weak sense that we are referring not merely to our own (subjective) response but to qualities in the object that others ought (ideally) to perceive and value accordingly. This is more a feeling than anything else - we might not actually expect universal assent, but we feel that a book is great or an artwork beautiful as if that assent ought to be expected.
I sort of see what is meant, but am not too happy about it. Does it make sense to speak of something being 'objective in the weak sense', especially if it is 'more a feeling than anything else'? I really think that is putting us into pretty shaky territory.
(Kant) doesn't think that we can claim that a book IS objectively great, merely that we FEEL that a book is objectively great, and that this subjective feeling is qualitatively different from other subjective feelings in that it feels 'as if' it is an objective truth (whilst we simultaneously KNOW that it isn't).
Here, Kant seems to want to hold two contradictory ideas simultaneously... have his cake, and eat it?
TBH, I think it is a pity that there are no objective criteria by which artworks can be judged - I 'feel' that Rembrandt is the greatest self-portraitist of all time, but I'll be damned if I can prove it, and someone else may wish to put forward alternative candidates. All rather dicey stuff, IMO - the world isn't as we'd like it to be, unfortunately.
Machenbach (298) wrote: "Justine wrote [#223]: " But there are other areas - I might like the piano repertoire of the Romantic composers and hate modern pop groups, but it would be difficult for me to argue why beyond sayi..."Some other points occur to me. For example, I might be able to justify my musical preferences more firmly if I possessed something in the way of musicological training. As it is, I have neither the technical knowledge nor the vocabulary.
Also, I think it matters how passively or actively we experience something, and in how much detail. Chewing on my Monster Munch, my reactions are generally limited to 'oo, yummy' or 'ick!' Reading most detective stories, I just float along with the plot, not paying attention to literary issues, of which there are generally few anyway. Whereas, Hilary Mantel's Fludd, which I am currently reading, rewards close observation and thought. So I'll be a lot more definite in the opinions I express on that.
Machenbach wrote: ... the 'greatness' of Ulysses, isn't principally argued from mere strength of feeling... but from the object itself and from criteria. These criteria are, of course, not objective, but it doesn't follow that they are entirely subjective or arbitrary... Rather there is a historical process by which the criteria for judging literature as 'great' are broadly agreed upon (but not universally, and they are far from being objective): these criteria are in constant flux, are subject to dispute and adjustment (perhaps now more than ever), but they are not merely personal-subjective, 'though they aren't objective either.
So:
1. the criteria are not objective
2. they are developed over time, but
3. they are not immutable, but...
4. they are not personal-subjective?
Does 4 follow from 1, 2 and 3? I'm not sure how.
I have no background in literary studies, but I am aware that certain schools of criticism come and go. I believe that FR Leavis used to be the most widely respected critic of his time, but that his reputation has since declined. I assume (but don't know) that his judgements, too, have therefore become less respected and influential.
Since there is no immutable authority to which we can turn, then although we may 'feel' that our judgements have a value above the purely subjective, it looks impossible to prove anything of the sort - IMO, of course.
Interesting that Bernadine Evaristo has ancestors of Brazlian Agadu stock (slaves from Brazil that returned to Nigeria in the 19th century). This tiny group had stirred my interest about a decade ago and i had forgot about them!the Sierra Leone and Liberian return of "freed" slaves to Africa is fascinating too
scarletnoir wrote: "Gladarvor wrote: "The question is whether you'd not feel a tad upset if somebody had read the Désérable you've been championing, and upon finishing it, would call it amateurish at best, clumsy and ..."all the Guardian comment sections suffered from the issue of personal attacks, rather than a sensible argument on politics, its a major argument loss for the person who goes personal
Guardian TLS was mostly free of that which i liked, on the sports comments pages i would find 5-6 replies to a sensible balanced comment which were all snide and tribal, politics comments page is and was even worse....
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Ersatz TLS
Books mentioned in this topic
Fludd (other topics)Fludd (other topics)
Fludd (other topics)
The Sunlight Pilgrims (other topics)
The Ministry for the Future (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Maryanne Wolf (other topics)James McBride (other topics)
Laurie Colwin (other topics)
M.R. James (other topics)
Justine wrote: "scarletnoir (236) wrote: "Response to message 225
...Balloon debate"
How do you run a balloon debate? Sounds fun."
It wasn't an altogether serious suggestion, and is usually carried out with 'famous people' rather than 'famous books' but:
"The audience is invited to imagine that the speakers are flying in a hot-air balloon which is sinking and that someone must be thrown out if everyone is not to die. Each speaker has to make the case why they should not be thrown out of the balloon to save the remainder."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balloon....