Tournament of Books discussion
2021 TOB General Topics
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2021 TOB Longlist
Emily wrote: "I'm new to this group, so forgive me if this has been asked and discussed: Does anyone know how the shortlist is selected? Do the folks at TME have a process they follow, or do they just arbitrar..."
Welcome to the group! The winner from the summer camp is automatically in the short list, so we know we'll be seeing Sharks in the Time of Saviors, and we can also generally expect the Booker and National Book Award winners to make it (this year those are Shuggie Bain and Interior Chinatown), so most of us have those three in our predictions. From there it's just kind of a random selection that the organizers choose based on which books seem to be "worthy competitors" but we don't know much more about the process than that. Some years the short list has been 16 books, but lately it's been 18 books with a play-in round for that 16th position. We're assuming that will be the case again this year with our predictions spreadsheet.
Tim wrote: "I think next year we should have a shortlist contest in which we try to predict the release date...."And we could have a contest to predict who the reader judge will be! We could go pour through last years commentariat and weigh up all the little nuggets of information people drop in their comments to identify potential picks... ok I’m gonna go read a book now.
Lee wrote: "Tim wrote: "I think next year we should have a shortlist contest in which we try to predict the release date...."And we could have a contest to predict who the reader judge will be! We could go p..."
Ha! I was just going to ask if folks here are applying to be a judge. I would love to, but feel like it might not be fair since I was able to get a spot in the booth for the Super Rooster. Being a judge is much more exciting though (especially since I wasn't thrilled with the matchup I provided commentary for - the judge picked the wrong book! LOL). Anyone here trying for it??
Not me. Doing commentary was stressful enough. The judge is who is really in the spotlight. Late to the game on this one, and I'll probably wait for the tourney to elaborate more, but holy hell Interior Chinatown is a great book. My internalized self-loathing as an Asian American was said out loud and it was quite an experience. I almost never read AA writers. No good reason. Just some kind of feeling like if it came from where I came from it must not have real value or some nonsense. I just read Maxine Hong Kingston for the first time because it was assigned in my college class last month. I'm 51 years old and that is a ridiculous hole in my reading. I bought the Kingston book for my mom for Xmas because well it's her life!
Lauren wrote: "Lee wrote: "Tim wrote: "I think next year we should have a shortlist contest in which we try to predict the release date...."And we could have a contest to predict who the reader judge will be! W..."
I'll consider applying, but I don't trust myself to have anything worth reading to say. I love reading and I can be opinionated, but when it comes to lit crit or even just writing reviews, I have a hard time expressing my views at length, in a way that goes far beyond the 1-5 star system or Andy Bernard-esque triteness ("These muffins are bad"). I will also occasionally read a book and then only later realize the problems with it. Why the hell did I give Ready Player One and The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao, the Epics of the Incel, 4 stars? Lord knows I can critique the criticism of others, but dare I scuttle my ragged claws out to disturb the universe with "decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse?" I think I'll stick to my silent sea.
Jason wrote: "Not me. Doing commentary was stressful enough. The judge is who is really in the spotlight. Late to the game on this one, and I'll probably wait for the tourney to elaborate more, but holy hell [..."
Thank you for sharing this. I'm glad you're able to expand your reading more now. It's never too late!
I'll likely be rereading Interior Chinatown in print after I finish the other short list books. I think some was lost through the audio when I listened earlier this year.
I just stuck my toe in the commentariat waters during the Super Rooster (even though I've been following ToB for 8 years now) so no way I'm ready to be a Reader Judge. That spotlight is way too bright for me. I am also a very slow reader (it's a curse) and the deadline would also stress me out. But, Isaac, based on what you have written here, I would totally read your judgment with pleasure! Unless you picked the wrong book, of course! ;)
The big danger I guess in writing a TOB judgment is whether you're writing in a way that signals that everyone else should agree with you, OR if you make clear that it's just your own little opinion.If there is a bias in how we common folk relate to TOB judges I think it's that we don't especially like people who think they are arbiters or definers of the Good. They can be mighty opinionated but they need to show some humility about it, and share their personal reasons, and label these as biases and preferences rather than truths or obvious fact.
lark wrote: "The big danger I guess in writing a TOB judgment is whether you're writing in a way that signals that everyone else should agree with you, OR if you make clear that it's just your own little opinio..."That's a good point! I hadn't thought of it in that way before, but it makes a lot of sense and I'll try to keep that in mind more for my comments about the books we're reading. :)
I enjoyed being in the commentariat but feel like I need more years in the tournament before applying to be a reader judge. I feel like there are a few of you who really should, some are more active in the actual tournament website discussion than here. As long as you read the books and give them the respect they deserve.I started Barn 8 today and while the pov is not usually the chickens, there is this one page that had me in stitches and I have shared now with four people- there is this chicken known as Buaaaaaak, "at least this is how she referred to herself." Hahahaha. Still funny. Overall, not a funny book.
Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "there is this chicken known as Buaaaaaak, "at least this is how she referred to herself..."Reminds me of a Missing Pet poster I spotted in my neighborhood once: German Shepherd, 'goes by the name Buck." Made me cry/laugh.
Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "I started Barn 8 today and while the pov is not usually the chickens, there is this one page that had me in stitches and I have shared now with four people- there is this chicken known as Buaaaaaak, "at least this is how she referred to herself." Hahahaha. Still funny. Overall, not a funny book..."I wanted to like this book, I persevered for a while but had to quit - everything about it rubbed me the wrong way, especially the characters. Maybe I wanted the book I expected so much that I couldn't forgive it for not being that book. Jenny, I'd love to see that page if you could send it to me - maybe it's the one page that would have made it all worth while ;)
Nadine wrote: "Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "I started Barn 8 today and while the pov is not usually the chickens, there is this one page that had me in stitches and I have shared now with four people- there is th..."I'll look for it Nadine, but it was pretty early on, before the daughter goes to auditing classes, maybe around the time the character of Cleveland is introduced, or right before.
To be honest though, I hit page 103 and decided to put it aside for other reads until I know if it's on the shortlist or not. For a while I felt connected to the characters but it's like the author didn't use the momentum she built up. I hate that in all areas of life. ;)
Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "Nadine wrote: "Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "I started Barn 8 today and while the pov is not usually the chickens, there is this one page that had me in stitches and I have shared now with four peop..."No need! I thought you might have taken a picture of it, so don't bother looking for it - I can make my peace with the book without it ;)
Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "For a while I felt connected to the characters but it's like the author didn't use the momentum she built up. I hate that in all areas of life. ;)..."It's amazing how easy it is for a writer to mess up on the need for momentum. Especially really good writers seem to make this mistake--it's hard for them maybe to see when something is in the category of "brilliant, but unnecessary."
Lauren wrote: "Lee wrote: "Tim wrote: "I think next year we should have a shortlist contest in which we try to predict the release date...."And we could have a contest to predict who the reader judge will be! W..."
I of course won't be applying because I was the reader judge in the 2020 tournament. I will say, while it was super, duper cool to have an inside look at the tournament goings-on (and to know the shortlist sooner and the final books sooner), it was also fairly stressful and not a small amount of work. Particularly because I wasn't over-the-top excited about either of the books I judged.
BUT, it was still worth it and I was very grateful to be selected.
Heather wrote: "Lauren wrote: "Lee wrote: "Tim wrote: "I think next year we should have a shortlist contest in which we try to predict the release date...."And we could have a contest to predict who the reader j..."
Thanks for sharing this, and you did great as a judge! I'll probably hold off on applying this year, but maybe next year. :)
lark wrote: "The big danger I guess in writing a TOB judgment is whether you're writing in a way that signals that everyone else should agree with you, OR if you make clear that it's just your own little opinio..."This is so well said, I wish we had the ability to upvote here! :)
I just started Luster and it is knocking me out in the best way possible.
Hey all - noticed these for sale on amazon, though I thought they were already supposed to expire. Let me know if you see more!Pizza Girl - $1.99
Docile - $2.99
Take Me Apart - $2.99
C wrote: "Hey all - noticed these for sale on amazon, though I thought they were already supposed to expire. Let me know if you see more!Pizza Girl - $1.99
Docile - $2.99
Take Me Apart - $2.99"
Thanks! It's definitely far too ambitious of me to think I'll read them right away, but there they are now, living in my iPad.
Alison wrote: "C wrote: "Hey all - noticed these for sale on amazon, though I thought they were already supposed to expire. Let me know if you see more!Pizza Girl - $1.99
Docile - $2.99
Take Me Apart - $2.99"
..."
Yep, exactly Alison. At least they aren't taking up shelf space!
C wrote: "Want - $2.99 for kindle"Thank you! My library didn't have this yet, and already has holds. I'll probably never read it if it's not chosen, one of the books on the list I'm least interested in, but it's worth taking the chance.
C wrote: "Hey all - noticed these for sale on amazon, though I thought they were already supposed to expire. Let me know if you see more!Pizza Girl - $1.99
Docile - $2.99
Take Me Apart - $2.99"
$3 is at least $4 more than I'd pay for Docile, but if you've got to catch them all, at least it's cheap.
Isaac wrote: "$3 is at least $4 more than I'd pay for Docile,"..."
That jacket blurb would sell books, guaranteed.
Jason wrote: "Isaac wrote: "$3 is at least $4 more than I'd pay for Docile,"..."
That jacket blurb would sell books, guaranteed."
LOL seriously!
That's one I bailed on early and I'll read it if it's shortlisted... maybe.I started The Knockout Queen today, having put Barn 8 aside for now....
If Docile is shortlisted, I will kneel on a bunch of rice myself. I enjoyed Barn 8, but mainly for the parts focusing on Janey and Cleveland and the chickens. It does get lost in the weeds a bit when the cast expands for the heist portion. The Knockout Queen is really good throughout, though.
In the books "you would and would not recommend as audiobooks" category:I started Apeirogon as an audiobook and found the short chapters and changing subjects and timeframes hard to follow, so I switched to print and am really glad I did. What a powerful book.
I'm almost done with Deacon King Kong as an audiobook and am loving it. The narrator does a great job with all of the characters, who I've really come to love.
I love audiobooks, and I completely agree about Deacon King Kong, Bretnie. Dominic Hoffman did a fantastic job. I haven’t started Apeirogon yet, but if I listen to it I’ll be sure to slow down my usual super-fast reading speed.
Isaac wrote: "I love audiobooks, and I completely agree about Deacon King Kong, Bretnie. Dominic Hoffman did a fantastic job. I haven’t started Apeirogon yet, but if I listen to it I’ll be sure to slow down my u..."This year I was about 70% audiobooks with my reading. I absolutely loved Apeirogon, but I really struggled with it on audio until I had a physical book from the library I could use to clarify some things. The short vignettes can be rather difficult to follow at times. I had to restart it which is rare for an audiobook (I think the only time I have ever had to) but once I got the flow down I finally got into its rhythm.
Kip wrote: "Isaac wrote: "I love audiobooks, and I completely agree about Deacon King Kong, Bretnie. Dominic Hoffman did a fantastic job. I haven’t started Apeirogon yet, but if I listen to it I’ll be sure to ..."My favorite way to read is audiobook-assisted, having an e-book or physical book and following along with the narration. It helps me retain and allows for my attention to wander off the page as it sometimes does while still getting the story. It also allows me to read faster; my natural reading speed is pretty slow, but the audio boosts it a lot without losing comprehension. I'll try it with Apeirogon and see how it goes.
Isaac wrote: "My favorite way to read is audiobook-assisted, having an e-book or physical book and following along with the narration. ..."Isaac, I'm so delighted to know that other readers do this! Yes. And for some books, it's necessary. I don't think I would have gotten through Wolf Hall without both audio and print, together. With both of them together, I loved the reading experience, and I've actually read it twice since.
I had just started getting into audiobooks and then the pandemic hit and let's just say small children trapped in your house aren't on board with people talking for hours at a time.
lark wrote: "Isaac wrote: "My favorite way to read is audiobook-assisted, having an e-book or physical book and following along with the narration. ..."Isaac, I'm so delighted to know that other readers do th..."
I had the same experience with Wolf Hall. It is excellent, but would have been much harder to get through without audio. Bring Up the Bodies is also very good, and easier, but I still need to read The Mirror & the Light to finish the trilogy.
Isaac wrote: "Kip wrote: "Isaac wrote: "I love audiobooks, and I completely agree about Deacon King Kong, Bretnie. Dominic Hoffman did a fantastic job. I haven’t started Apeirogon yet, but if I listen to it I’ll..."Isaac, Kip and Lark - you make audio+print sound so tempting! I always thought that the difference in reading speeds would trip me up. Even though I'm a slow reader, I'm still faster than a narrator. Most audio books narrators sound natural to me at 1.25 speed, unless they are reading in an accent I'm not that familiar with. Maybe it's something I have to train my brain to do, to slow down and appreciate what I'm hearing and curb the urge to rush - which life training I could use in general.
Do you think there's a good type of book to start with? Short rather than long? Plot-heavy or meditative? Fiction vs Non?
Nadine wrote: "Isaac wrote: "Kip wrote: "Isaac wrote: "I love audiobooks, and I completely agree about Deacon King Kong, Bretnie. Dominic Hoffman did a fantastic job. I haven’t started Apeirogon yet, but if I lis..."I usually listen to audiobooks at fast speeds, whether or not I'm reading along. I don't mind that it doesn't sound exactly natural, once I've adjusted to it. Once you can listen to a book at 2x, you'll notice that 2.5x doesn't sound so different, and 3x not much different from that. There are some books who's narrator I appreciate so much that I don't like to speed them up (Jeremy Irons reading Lolita and Richard Poe reading Blood Meridian, or the Evening Redness in the West come to mind), but most books I don't mind rushing through as long as I feel like I get the gist of what's going on. The Stormlight Archive series by Brandon Sanderson would take over a week's worth of time to listen to at original speed, and if I just tried to read it I'm afraid I would get bogged down in his complicated magic systems and world-building, but I love his books for their characters, plots, and action, and that comes through just fine by listening at faster speeds. So it all depends on what you're interested in and what you're wanting to get out of your reading and/or listening experience.
As for what to start with, I would just say to find a book you're interested in, no matter what its genre is, and start with that. My own first audio/visual reading experience was with Crime and Punishment. I tried to read it several times but kept dropping it. Then I tried reading it along with an audiobook (narrated by George Guidall, another excellent reader), and now it's one of my all-time favorites. So if there's a book you keep throwing back into your TBR pile, you could start with that, too.
I highly recommend the Libby app if you have a smartphone and your local public library uses it. You can use it to check out the audiobook and e-book copies of a book and read them both at the same time, as long as you're using another app, like Kindle, to read on. Amazon also has a feature on some of their books where if you have a e-book to read on Kindle and an audiobook copy of it from Audible, you can read and listen on your phone while the app highlights the text being read by the narrator. That's the easiest way to do it.
Isaac wrote: "Nadine wrote: "Isaac wrote: "Kip wrote: "Isaac wrote: "I love audiobooks, and I completely agree about Deacon King Kong, Bretnie. Dominic Hoffman did a fantastic job. I haven’t started Apeirogon ye..."I am typically at 1.5x for British narrators and 1.75x-2x for everything else, maybe I need to see what 2.5x is like.
I almost always buy Kindle books, and if I want audio I'll have my Kindle (newer generation) or iPad read the screen for me. They're not as good as the narrators on recorded audiobooks obviously (and I do belong to Libro for books where I want to get absorbed in good acting), but as I get into the story I hardly notice the robotic speech. So the print automatically tracks along with the reading, and I'll often do both at the same time. (I started this because I have eye issues, so I can let my eyes rest every couple of pages and still keep going, then resume reading along when I'm ready.)I'll only do the audio for books where I care more about plot than the writing. For complex stories, books that play with structure, or authors who use language really well, I'd much rather go through the book slowly in print and really absorb it. I'm now listening to Leave the World Behind, for example, while I cook or clean or drive, but I'm only reading Jack, without the audio, and I'll do the same with Apeirogon.
Well to clarify I don’t read along simultaneously while listening to audio. I swap back and forth in a mysterious way where there is a lot of checking back, and overlap. It allows me to ‘read’ continuously when I’m not able to sit and read, so I can really focus on one book. I would guess other people do this since Amazon sells this thing called ‘whispersync’ although I’ve never used it. One of the points of having both audio and print for me is built-in, rapid re-reading, which improves my sometimes-sketchy reading comprehension.
lark wrote: "Well to clarify I don’t read along simultaneously while listening to audio. I swap back and forth in a mysterious way where there is a lot of checking back, and overlap. It allows me to ‘read’ cont..."I swap back and forth between the physical book and the same audio too. It helps me keep up momentum when reading long classic novels like Middlemarch or Anna Karenina. I find that if a book takes me more than about a week to read, I lose interest. Swapping helps keep even the longest books under a week.
Jason wrote: "John Warner’s best booksJason, thanks so much for posting a link to this column! Wow, these are such interesting picks. Want is one of those books that was hard to love but really great at the same time and it made me think, to see it paired that way with A Children's Bible. I really do need to read Telephone. Thanks!
lark wrote: "Jason wrote: "John Warner’s best booksJason, thanks so much for posting a link to this column! Wow, these are such interesting picks. Want is one of those books that was hard to l..."
I certainly agree with his assessment of Such a Fun Age as "Book Most Likely to Become a Limited Television Series." The plotline, characters, and incredible coincidences would work very well in the world of television; I just don't think it's a show I would actually watch.
I've never read anything by Percival Everett. For those of you who have, would you agree with Warner referring to him as America's greatest living novelist? I would say Cormac McCarthy myself, but I can be wrong.
Isaac wrote: "I've never read anything by Percival Everett. For those of you who have, would you agree with Warner referring to him as America's greatest living novelist? ..."Every Percival Everett book is completely different from the last one, so if you define "America's greatest living novelist" as "he can write brilliantly in any damn way he pleases" then it's a pretty accurate thing to say about him.
Jason wrote: "John Warner’s best bookshttps://www.chicagotribune.com/entert..."
Man, our tastes differ that's for sure--four of those books I was pretty meh on.
I second the notion of Percival Everett being the greatest living American author. He has wider range than anyone I’ve ever read. Don’t start with Telephone - it’s really good but not his very best.
Isaac wrote: "I've never read anything by Percival Everett. For those of you who have, would you agree with Warner referring to him as America's greatest living novelist? I would say Cormac McCarthy myself, but I can be wrong...."Big respect for McCarthy, Isaac. I've read a few by Everett, and I'd go with him as a good writer who deserves wider acclaim, but for all around great, Louise Erdrich gets my vote.
lark wrote: ".... Want is one of those books that was hard to love but really great at the same time...."Thanks for saying this, Lark. I gave Want three stars, which is low for me. If I take the time to read a book, it's usually because I've read enough about it to figure it's going to be a 4 or even 5 star read (yes, I'm an easy grader). Want did so much stuff well...the details of motherhood, the lapsed friendship, the financial hassles...but it felt like the book had no center holding all the bits together and giving it any narrative momentum, and the ending was insulting.
Definitely some interesting choices by John.
Tournament of Books
Books mentioned in this topic
This Mournable Body (other topics)Luster (other topics)
Shuggie Bain (other topics)
The Cold Millions (other topics)
Include Me Out (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
María Sonia Cristoff (other topics)Percival Everett (other topics)
Cormac McCarthy (other topics)
Brandon Sanderson (other topics)
Does anyone know how the shortlist is selected? Do the folks at TME have a process they follow, or do they just arbitrarily pick books from the longlist? I've spent way too much time pondering about this, so I thought I'd ask.