Ersatz TLS discussion
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Weekly TLS
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What Are We Reading? 16 Nov 2020
Lljones wrote: "The New York Times has compiled The 10 Best Books Through Time -- 2004-2019, with 2020 due in a few weeks."I've only read 4 of them, 3 non-fiction:
(I felt dirty after reading that last one - it gave far too much space to the ideas of a mass murderer.)
The one novel I've read I would never have put on a best books list:
I read two better novels from 2011 that were not on the list:
There are a few books in the fiction category that I have TBR, but reviewing this list hasn't made them feel any more urgent.
Tam wrote: "He implies that all pre WWII, at least in crime novels, are resolutely set within tightly defined class boundaries. If any character appears in any of the novels outside of the strict class criteria, they are just a class cipher for the plot."I assume you're talking strictly about British crime novels here. I suppose it depends on how "crime novels" are defined; i.e., if it's limited to the kind of whodunit mysteries that Marsh, Christie, and others wrote. The statement is certainly not true of Harriet by Elizabeth Jenkins, based on a real-life Victorian murder, but that novel isn't a whodunit.
Tam wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Charles Ferdinand RAMUZ- What If the Sun Fails To Shine (1937)An interesting take on a mysterious apocalyptic event so far, with the sun stubbornly refusing to reach a mountain villa..."
i read the article too in the LRB and i felt sorry for anyone who has to read 200 genre novels, that would be my idea of hell, i would never even read two novels by the same author in a row, let alone 200 in one genre
i dont quite agree on his summary of class in british novels but i read novels from all nations that were written before 1970s and 80s.
i guess i find contempary novels (better wording than modern) are over hyped, over discussed and over here too much. The amount of paper taken up with another "greatest novel ever" leaves me cold when so many better novels are out of print or languishing in basements. On average i find about maybe 2 or 3 contempary novels i like a year, always a very poor return (this year it was Lebedev and Yeshoshua that got a thumbs up)
Class in british fiction is used for plot and has an amazing history of built in meanings that are possibly unqiue to this small island, which preserved itself since 1688 in a settled system of a sort.
Class in crime novels is not really my forte as i read very little crime novels, i'm not a huge fan of detective novels and the Scando-crime boom jarred on me very very quickly. I remember one feverish evening trying to exit a crime labyrinth of books on amazon, every sodding link was to another middling modern crime genre non-entity of a book!
If i DO read crime novels, i always look for something different. "The Refuge" began with the crime being described by the suspect. Ackroyd by Christie is another which changes the shape of the genre but far too many bore me.
Tam wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Charles Ferdinand RAMUZ- What If the Sun Fails To Shine (1937)An interesting take on a mysterious apocalyptic event so far, with the sun stubbornly refusing to reach a mountain villa..."
but to answer your question, from my general british reading of classic novels, i would say what Patterson suggests is not the case, nor with non-english language novels
Mod
..."
I've read 41, more fiction than non-.
I'd forgotten about Will in the World: How Shakespeare Became Shakespeare. Seems like one you would have read - ?
I'm amused that Chronicles: Volume One made the list (2004). It's one of my 41, of course.
AB76 wrote: "Charles Ferdinand RAMUZ- What If the Sun Fails To Shine (1937)An interesting take on a mysterious apocalyptic event so far, with the sun stubbornly refusing to reach a mountain village, Ramuz car..."
You might like this:
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20...
Lljones wrote: "I've read 41 ... I'd forgotten about Will in the World: How Shakespeare Became Shakespeare. Seems like one you would have read - ?"Unlike me, you obviously read the best books.
As opposed to Wagner, I don't really read all that much about Shakespeare. From the period in question only
When I started looking at the list (from the bottom up) I was sure Lincoln in the Bardo would be on it (2017), but it wasn't.
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Hadn't noticed that. I've read four of the five fiction books of 2017; it's ridiculous that Bardo didn't kick off any of those four.
Lljones wrote: "it's ridiculous that Bardo didn't kick..."I'm surprised A Gentleman in Moscow isn't in there.
Lljones wrote: "I've read 41"Did you read Euphoria by Lily King? I recently read Writers & Lovers because I wanted to read a novel about someone writing a novel. I thought of you because one scene is set at a David Byrne concert.
We sit during the opening act but when David Byrne walks onstage in a bright pink mohair suit and says quietly into his mic, 'I can't seem to face up to the facts,' Mary leaps up and we all follow her down to the small dance pit in front of the stage.
The crowd shrieks for the whole song. Next he sings 'Making Flippy Floppy' and 'The Gates of Paradise' from his new album, then 'Take Me to the River,' which makes people go crazy all over again. He makes quick costume changes, each time coming back onstage with fresh energy.
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Yes, I was surprised by that too. Just checked: it's not even included in NYT's 100 Notable Books of 2016. Curiouser and curiouser.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/23/bo...
(Btw: I would have placed Commonwealth ahead of several of the 2016 top five.)
Lljones wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Of more interest to some of you, though, may be this link to van Dongen's cats... (+ women in many cases!)...."Thanks so much, scarlet. Missed this earlier today, but just spe..."
It's lovely having the colourful covers here, but might one with poor eyesight request that the title also be printed in the comment?. I know I can tap on the book and find out what it is - but it would help nonetheless. Thanks!
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Agree, I prefer the book title to the book cover, so will stick with that in the future.
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Yes, read them both. I preferred Euphoria (my late mother and I shared an interest in the Margaret Mead story), read both in one-fell-swoop fashion, found them both competently written, but was disappointed with both in the end. There's something florid in King's writing style that rubs me the wrong way, and the ending of Writers & Lovers was especially disappointing, all too neatly wrapped up.
I admit I don't remember noticing the Byrne scene you mention. Could be related to covid or Trump distractions, could be a sign of early-onset dementia, or could be a sign of both. (I do remember the scene you cite from Byrne videos, so there's that.)
Bill wrote: I felt dirty after reading that last one (One of Us - Asne Seierstad) - it gave far too much space to the ideas of a mass murderer.I found the book a very uncomfortable read; in several places I had to force myself to keep on reading, but it was worthwhile in the end.
Lljones wrote: "the ending of Writers & Lovers was especially disappointing, all too neatly wrapped up."Yeah, the ending was just too, er, euphoric for me to accept. In my review, I called the Byrne concert the "objective correlative for the characters' sense of euphoria". I did think her descriptions of working as a waitress were pretty good, though.
Alan wrote: "I found the book a very uncomfortable read; in several places I had to force myself to keep on reading, but it was worthwhile in the end."I go into my sense of discomfort about One of Us: The Story of a Massacre in Norway -- and Its Aftermath in my review. I probably will never feel quite at ease reading a true crime murder story after reading Thomas De Quincey, On Murder.
Ben Lerner’s 10:04 is a difficult book to describe, essentially detailing the activities of an author preparing his upcoming work, a semi-fictional text held together with intelligent prose. For me, the highlight is the protagonist’s platonic relationship with a female friend, who asks him to help her conceive. Thus ensues awkward sex and visits to a ‘masturbatorium’, all of which is comical, but also touching. This short novel was greatly refreshing after my last couple of reads.I’m now turning to The Sound of Things Falling by Juan Gabriel Vasquez.
It’s the virtual Kendal Mountain Film Festival this weekend, and last night was the announcement of the winner of the Boardman Tasker Prize for Mountain Literature. The short list is here
The winner was Two Trees Make a Forest: Travels Among Taiwan's Mountains & Coasts in Search of My Family's Past
giveusaclue wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Charles Ferdinand RAMUZ- What If the Sun Fails To Shine (1937)An interesting take on a mysterious apocalyptic event so far, with the sun stubbornly refusing to reach a mountain villa..."
thanks!
Has anyone here read much Alain Mabanckou?I love his witty and elegant tales of Congolese life(previously the French Congo, the smaller version of what was the Belgian Congo)
My latest novel of his is "Black Moses", already i am chuckling at his world play and gentle satire on Congolese history and tribal rivalry. He is a real talent, aged 54 now and he is a modern author who just keeps giving,(the others are Vargas Llosa, Sinoon and Garnier)
Bill wrote: "Lljones wrote: "I've read 41 ... I'd forgotten about Will in the World: How Shakespeare Became Shakespeare. Seems like one you would have read - ?"Unlike me, you obviously read th..."
I recommend Shakespeare by Bill Bryson, a very readable guide to what little is known about the Bard, written in Bryson's usual accessible style.
AB76 wrote: "Has anyone here read much Alain Mabanckou?I love his witty and elegant tales of Congolese life(previously the French Congo, the smaller version of what was the Belgian Congo)
My latest novel of ..."
I've read several novels by Mabanckou, and especially liked Memoirs of a Porcupine, although others here have dissented. Like Kurniawan's Man Tiger, it demands that the reader extend his modern Western mentality into different thought-world. I'll look out for Black Moses.
Andy wrote: "The winner was Two Trees Make a Forest: Travels Among Taiwan's Mountains & Coasts in Search of My Family's Past..."I've become especially interested in Taiwan lately, and this sounds interesting on a number of levels.
Nightblind by Jonasson Somehow I couldn’t get into this book, couldn’t get to care about the characters and nearly abandoned the book. Just found it rather tedious but the setting in the remote north of Iceland was of some geographical interest.
It is the second book in the Dark Iceland series, I read the first a long time ago and don’t think that it could have made much impression either. Shall I read the next? Who knows.
Now started The Summer without Men as my fiction book. Only a few pages in and the protagonist is pretty miserable but being introduced to five old ladies who seem to have some character holds out some promise.
The non fiction book is the much lauded Entangled Life and I’ve been off truffle hunting in Italy. Don’t think I have ever tasted truffle , mushrooms and me don’t get along very well but I like this book. I bought it because I want to know more about the relationship between fungi and trees.
Mod
Yes, she really captured the entire restaurant working atmosphere; this was much discussed with my bff who managed a very similar restaurant/bar that I frequented. You must have restaurant experience on your resume to have noticed that, I'd say.
BTW, I've recaptured the whole Byrne thread of the book. Don't know why I didn't remember it yesterday - crazy day of computer trouble-shooting, I guess.
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36, with 10 others on the shelves as yet unread."
Didn't count the TBR's, but there are plenty.
I did notice the deterioration of my reading life through the years - plenty of hits in the early years, not so much in the last 2-3 years, where taking care of Lucia and a pandemic and the end of democracy as we know it converged.
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Thanks, mags. I've only read one or two by Bryson, didn't know about this one.
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Snap!
Alwynne wrote: "Tam wrote: "AB76 wrote: on class in crime novelsNo alas, which was why I thought AB might have come across a book that did discuss this phenomena, him being so widely read in relation to that era..
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I adored 10:04! (Still want to see Christian Marclay's “The Clock" someday.)
Alwynne wrote: "Snap my tally is 41 as well!Sorry to be ignorant but what does 41 refer to?
Alwynne wrote: "Tam wrote: "AB76 wrote: My interest is in how 'otherness' is portrayed. (Medieval illuminated monsters/animal hybrids were used by the church to portray the base nature of those deemed to be failing the 'Christian Standard' of what constitutes a decent/pious human being).
I have read on many occasions that it took the experience of WWII, and the fact that so many children from poor parts of London were shipped out to all over the country for the duration of the war, that for the first time their was some social awareness amongst the general public, specifically the middle classes, about the inequality in British Society. And there is an assumption behind this, (though obviously more complex than I can put in a few sentences) that it was this general raising of awareness that heralded in the NHS, 'The New Towns act 47' and TCPA 1947 made council housing accessible to all, and the 'Education Act 1944' making grammar schools accessible to the working class etc....
I was interested in what he had to say as authors of that pre WWII period were probably largely middle class, and so I wondered if they were writing characters mainly from their imaginations of how they thought they might/should be, having little connexion mostly in their own lives to those from other classes and cultures.
I find it interesting to consider this much older piece of history in relation to todays 'cultural appropriation' debate... Now that would take a helluva lot of unravelling... I will try and dream up a suitable tee-shirt quotation, but it's probably beyond me...
Mod
Sorry to be ignorant but what does 41 refer to?"
Several of us tallied up the number of books we have read from this link I posted a few days ago:
The New York Times' 10 Best Books Through Time - 2004-2019
https://www.nytimes.com/article/top-b...
Alwynne & I both read 41.
Tam wrote: "Alwynne wrote: "Tam wrote: "AB76 wrote: on class in crime novelsNo alas, which was why I thought AB might have come across a book that did discuss this phenomena, him being so widely read in re..."
not sure if i'm that well read compared to many in here Tam! As a 40 something, i feel i still have a lot more to read!
alwynne made a good point about the class background of writers, it still is impressive that two pillars of the victorian era hardy and dickens were not from middle class backgrounds, add thje composer Edward Elgar and you have three icons of Victorian and Edwardian Britain all coming from working class bkacgrounds
PaleFires wrote: "Hi Justine, Since you first spoke of Kurniawan of Indonesia, I've been meaning to ask you if you've heard of Pramoedya Ananta Toer, (1925-2006) the author of the Buru Quartet (among other works), b..."another indonesian author was Mukthar Lubis, who wrote "Twilight in Jakarta" in the 1960s..its on my pile
PaleFires wrote: "Hi Justine, Since you first spoke of Kurniawan of Indonesia, I've been meaning to ask you if you've heard of Pramoedya Ananta Toer, (1925-2006) the author of the Buru Quartet (among other works), b..."Thanks for this. I read the first volume of the Buru Quartet, This Earth of Mankind, a few years ago and had some discussion about it with Tim Hannigan in the days when he still graced us with his presence. I found it interesting, and quite strange (Tim, an expert it seems - from what I've learned on Google - on the region, liked it less). I will hunt down the second volume.
Magrat wrote: "I recommend Shakespeare by Bill Bryson, a very readable guide to what little is known about the Bard, written in Bryson's usual accessible style."4 years ago, while I was still going through the complete works, I bought Shakespeare: A Very Short Introduction by your countrywoman Germaine Greer, whose contributions to an on-line panel I had enjoyed. I still haven't read it.
Ah, I think I now see how to add a comment. Added one which has not gone into the thread. I need to get with the programme...sorry
41 books."Thanks. I couldn’t find the link as assumed that it could not be TEN best books....... with a score of 41,
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Storm, you set up a new discussion, instead of adding a new comment here. You can copy and paste it into a new post here, then I'll remove that separate discussion.
I finished reading Brother Cadfael's Penance today and really enjoyed it. If my digital tbr pile wasn't so high I would be tempted to go back and read the whole series again. My review:https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/9...
On a silly note, those who read ebooks know that if you tap on a word it will take you to the dictionary definition of that word. Well, over recent times, having read almost all of my books in this format, I found myself tapping a word I didn't know in the paperback in the same way!!! Funnily enough, it didn't work. Bit like when you try to switch lights on in a power cut. 🙄
Is anyone here into audio? https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/search?q...This is the link to the 4th Shardlake historical mystery set in Tudor times. I've read and/or listened to the whole series which is just fantastic. Like most series it is best started with the first which can be found here - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/search?q...
Henry does not come off well.
I am about to start reading The Domesday Book (No not that one) by Howard of Warwick. It sounds very daft so I will probably either love it or hate it.
Well gosh... I don’t know where the rest of my post went! And please forgive the typos! I can see I’ve got a steep learning curve ahead as far as posting here goes - is there a FAQ or a sort of demo available on how to post here? Is there a restriction on how long a post can be? Anyway here is the rest of my post:
First off, Moon Tiger by Penelope Lively. Beautiful luscious prose but a totally overwrought storyline.
Secondly, Dirty Snow by George Simenon. I just couldn’t into the flow and the reasoning for the principle character’s actions in the book. I found it a profoundly strange book.
Thirdly, Devil in a Blue Dress by Walter Mosley. This started off well, I was intrigued and interested by the period, the setting and the characters in the book and I got into the groove. But then the further I went on I started getting confused and by the end was totally lost. I found it convoluted and confusing and I ended it feeling dissatisfied and befuddled. What had I just read? I don’t know, something about a lot of gangsters and some other people looking for a girl with a suitcase of money.
Now, at random, I’ve pulled out Days Without End by Sebastian Barry from one of my bookshelves. Let’s hope this one hits that sweet spot that we all look for in a book!
Thanks, everyone. So good to see many names I recognise from TLS.
CocoKinetix wrote: "Well gosh... I don’t know where the rest of my post went! And please forgive the typos! I can see I’ve got a steep learning curve ahead as far as posting here goes - is there a FAQ or a sort of dem..."Hi CocoKinetix! Welcome to our attempt to recreate the original TL&S (or at least its spirit) here at Goodreads. And thanks for the comments on your reading. Dissenting opinions always add spice to the mix.
And by the way, regarding typos, you can edit your comments even after they are posted - you'll see the word 'edit' at the bottom right of any of your own, even now. So you can correct (or delete) them at any time. This is one advantage we did not have at the Guardian site.
is safereturndoubtful in here? whats the new AKA? or somewhere in the vosges mountains still?
Various books lined up to finish 2020 with, apart from the current reading of Britain in the 70s, CF Ramuz, Lindgren and Mabanckou, these titles are in the pile:Silvers City(Leitch), a 1981 ulster classic from Turnpike Books (great N Irish literature publisher). Set during the troubles
In Her Shoes: Stories from the Worcester Womens Oral History Project(non-fiction)
New Zealand Short Stories (compiled by Dan Davin-1954), a wondrous pocket size 1954 original, with a good selection of authors
Conversations with Stalin (Djilas-1962), not going to be a pleasent read but a fascinating topic, Djilas was a Yugoslav communist who became jaded
working class voices in literature in per WWII eraThanks for that recommendation (The Proletarian Answer to the Modernist Question) I will take a look at it. My field is very much art rather than literature. I could bore you at length no doubt about Raymond Williams and John Berger's cultural concerns... and some aspects of Modernism, but its a small, though interesting, field,
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Ersatz TLS
Books mentioned in this topic
The Unremembered Places: Exploring Scotland's Wild Histories (other topics)The Negro Grandsons of Vercingetorix (other topics)
Memoirs of a Porcupine (other topics)
Black Bazaar (other topics)
The Death of Comrade President (other topics)
More...
An interesting take on a mysterious apocalyptic event so far, with the sun stubbornly refusing to reach a mountain village, Ramuz car..."
I have been reading "The Body in the Library Is Never Our Own' Ian Patterson on Ngaio Marsh, in the LRB. It is a discourse on 'murder Mysteries, before WWII, focussing on Ngaio (who I have never heard of) but in the process of writing it he has agreed to take on reading 200 odd murder mysteries, mostly British, from that period, though Ngaio is from NZ, and analyse them. It is by no means the most interesting article in this issue, but I am curious about one somewhat implied thing, and I believe that you have said that you rarely read a modern book, (past the 1970's?) which is why I am hoping you might shed some light on this perhaps?
He implies that all pre WWII, at least in crime novels, are resolutely set within tightly defined class boundaries. If any character appears in any of the novels outside of the strict class criteria, they are just a class cipher for the plot. I wondered if, from your far greater experience of novels and non-fiction, from this period, whether this is largely true across your reading spectrum. I read D H Lawrence at school, and Arnold Wesker, and Alan Sillitoe, so know that it is not wholly true of all genres, (but this was the 60's) but I would love to hear a more expert opinion from someone who is more widely read in that particular period.
I find myself wishing that he had abandoned the seeming review of just 'crime fiction' and instead done an analysis of class boundaries, and stereotypes, in British fiction, from that period. Still the idea was enough to claim my attention. Do you know of anyone who has approached this subject in insightful ways?