The Seasonal Reading Challenge discussion
WINTER CHALLENGE 2020
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Group Reads Discussion - Twelve Years a Slave
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did we have a poll on this? I will be reading this but it seems to have come out of nowhere
It appears that there are 4 choices instead of three for the group reads so there are the winners of the three categories' that we voted on plus this one. So you get an extra book (which you can download at no cost) to pick from
Mod
We added this at the last minute for those people who felt that they would be unable to obtain any of the group reads choices, since this is available to all at no charge
SRC Moderator wrote: "Exactly, Andy.We added this at the last minute for those people who felt that they would be unable to obtain any of the group reads choices, since this is available to all at no charge"
that is a great idea
I have started this book. This book has been on and off my TBR more times than I care to Imagine. I am not a lover of this type of fiction finding I am just bowed down by the grim awfulness of it all. I ask myself why anyone would want to read about something which so belittles human life and yet I can understand why it needed to be fictionalised or in this case portrayed as a non-fiction account. I am finding it fairly hard going I have to admit. I find that the narrative is sometimes lost in the characterisation if that makes sense? At times it feels a laboured read. M y e-book suggests it is a mere 108 pages, I am just about half way through and have been reading for hours.
Written in the classical style, each chapter is preceded by an outline of what you are going to read within it -I have never been able to understand what this styling adds to a book it feels like a lecture where you are told what you are going to learn, then told it again and then recap what you learnt at the end.
The main character talks to the reader throughout and I do feel some affinity to his plight in that "conversation." He suggests there has been a lot of "slave fiction" that may or may not be based on truth but that his account is only going to talk about slavery as it pertained to him.
His character I think quashes many ingrained beliefs that we may have had about people enslaved during this period. He is a well educated, thinking man. Yet as his enslavement happened he is accepting, almost, of what is happening to him - he does not really berate his kidnappers in the way I expected. He is also in some ways complimentary to the slavers by suggesting that his master is a "good man" who simply believes slavery is just.. He talks about William Ford as having "lost nothing by his kindness" and suggests that he, Samuel, has a desire to please his master - Is this simply another way of portraying pride in his work? I do think He is prideful in some ways.
I think we could make some comparisons to events happening today for instance
Is the way people of colour are marginalised in some sectors of today's society equable to slavery. Do those of us not of colour believe this is just in the same way as William Ford believed Slavery was?
I would love to hear some of your views about this - have i just been spouting rubbish? what do others see in Samuel's character
Marie (UK) wrote: "I am not a lover of this type of fiction finding I am just bowed down by the grim awfulness of it all. I ask myself why anyone would want to read about something which so belittles human life and yet I can understand why it needed to be fictionalised or in this case portrayed as a non-fiction account."This isn't fiction. It's a true story as far as historians have been able to verify. It's Solomon Northup's memoir as told to and edited by David Wilson. It was published eight years before the Civil War and shortly after Uncle Tom's Cabin by Harriet Beecher Stowe.
After the memoir's publication in 1853, it seems to have fallen into obscurity until the early 1960s when two Louisiana historians, Sue Eakin and Joseph Logsdon, separately rediscovered it. Together, they retraced and validated Northup's account as far as possible and concluded that it was accurate. They co-edited and released a historically annotated version of the memoir, published by Louisiana State University Press, in 1968.
Sue Eakin spent most of her career researching Northup and, with Louisiana state funding, she developed the Northup Trail, a tour of key locations from the book. Unfortunately, she died before the movie came to be (by all accounts, she would have been very excited about Northup getting such wide attention). Still, the director Steve McQueen took a moment to thank her during his Oscar acceptance speech for Best Picture. Here's an interesting article about how she rescued the story from obscurity:
The Historian Who Unearthed “Twelve Years a Slave”
There are people who do not believe it is wholly nonfiction, though. James Olney, for example, was an academic that believed David Wilson may have embellished parts of the story to make it more effective at turning public opinion against slavery but, as far as I can tell, others in the academic community find Olney's conclusions suspect. I'm sure there are many others who would prefer to dismiss the account as fiction, too. It is, after all, often painful to face truth which is why so many would prefer to look the other way as long as it is comfortable for them to do so.
I do get your point, Marie, about how Solomon seems mostly accepting of what happened to him but I wonder if there are a few things might not influence that: (1) he's telling the story after the fact and some memories may be distorted; (2) he's telling the story to a white man in the mid-1800s and, after what he's been through, he might be hesitant to berate his kidnappers in the way that one might expect, especially to a white man no matter how enlightened that white man seems to be for the times; and (3) throughout the book, Solomon struck me as a particularly pragmatic man. What happened to him was awful and unfair, to be sure, but there were many others that fared far worse and, in the end, how would it have served him to remain angry and turn bitter? Personally, I'm not sure I could have been as accepting as he turned out to be. If I'd survived (which I sincerely doubt), I'm pretty sure I would have had a much more murderous outlook! Much to my detriment, I'm sure, but nonetheless, there you have it.........
I listened to the Blackstone Audio version read by Louis Gossett Jr. and it was very good. His voice gave the story the gravitas I think it deserves. And, while the story is certainly heart-wrenching and horrifying in its details about how slaves were treated, it does, thankfully, have a happy ending.
Kristina Simon wrote: "Marie (UK) wrote: "I am not a lover of this type of fiction finding I am just bowed down by the grim awfulness of it all. I ask myself why anyone would want to read about something which so belittl..."i think i used the word portrayed incorrectly I knew it was non-fiction but i do like your points about why Samuel may have been accepting of his lot. I go through the book but I did find it a difficult read in many ways
Marie (UK) wrote: "I got through the book but I did find it a difficult read in many ways"I agree. It was a tough read. But I'm glad I read it. People (myself included sometimes) seem to have the perception that slavery was only a Southern US problem but, as this memoir shows, being black in the North wasn't without peril. And that problem, I'm afraid, still exists in today's society. The danger isn't the same, but danger exists all the same.
Andy P'I didn't learn anything new about the plight of the slaves that were actually free and living in the northern part of the US during or after the Civil War. What surprised me was the dialogue of the author, a free black man originally living in New York. Even taking into account that he was a free man, he was either extremely well educated, at least as best I could tell from the language he used. He gave little information about his upbringing, other than brief mention of his immediate family. I was amazed at his command of the written word.
Andy wrote: "Andy P'I didn't learn anything new about the plight of the slaves that were actually free and living in the northern part of the US during or after the Civil War. What surprised me was the dialogu..."
i was too Andy I wonder if the fact that it was told to and edited by someone else had something to do with this see Kristina Simon's post above
I also have had the experience of attending a women's college in Virginia in the 1960's when it was integrated. In more recent years (circa 2015 to present) the college almost closed their doors due to low enrollment. Some of the staff at this time were decedents of slaves who worked for the family who dedicated the land for the college. That these black families were treated well enough that they continued to work there after slavery was declared illegal says that not all black people were ill treated in the south any more than all so called free slaves were treated justly in the north is a point to be pondered
Andy wrote: "That these black families were treated well enough that they continued to work there after slavery was declared illegal says that not all black people were ill treated in the south"Here are a couple of interesting articles I found by Henry Louis Gates, Jr. that discuss why free Blacks, including his ancestors, may have stayed in Virginia and other Southern states:
Free Blacks Lived in the North, Right?
Why Did Free Blacks Stay in the Old South?
He begins that second one with this:
"I was raised to believe three things about slavery in America: first, that slaves who gained their freedom did so by escaping on the Underground Railroad to the North; second, that all of the black people living in the South before and during the Civil War were slaves; and third, that all of the free black people in pre-Civil War America lived in the North. If any of us knew anything at all with certainty about the history of slavery in our country, it was these three things, right? "
And, indeed, that's what I was taught in school and at home, too, only to now find out that it was all myth and misinformation.
I think there were a lot of reasons free blacks didn't flee the Confederate states. To me, the most compelling reasons outlined in the articles for free Blacks to remain in Confederate states were these:
- Freed slaves were sometimes given land by their masters upon being granted their freedom.
- moving is hard, especially when there was no guarantee they'd be treated better elsewhere. Blacks were despised and degraded in the North as well as in the South. In fact, several Northern states restricted the admission of free blacks, among them Ohio, Iowa, Indiana and Illinois (the last two in their state constitutions).
- moving away from loved ones, whether still enslaved or free, is even harder
So, in the end, I don't think we can assume those families stayed because they were not ill treated. Or rather, I guess it depends on how we define "ill treated." They may not have been physically brutalized (beaten, whipped, flayed, raped, etc.), but I can't imagine they were treated "well." Even if they were, technically, "free" they were almost certainly not considered equal.
Free was (and is), after all, relative. Free Blacks may not have been owned but they were not free to do what they wished without peril. Which leads me full circle, back to Marie's question: "Is the way people of colour are marginalised in some sectors of today's society equable to slavery." I don't think I'd go as far as to equate today's marginalization with slavery but I do see parallels and inequalities that I think need to be fixed, along with the attitudes and biases that allow those inequities to continue to flourish.
The thing that got me with the families that were living and working at Sweet Briar College in 2015 when it was announced that the college was going to close (though that turned out thankfully to be incorrect) were a mixture of professor's families and other employees among which were some whose families had worked as slaves on the original plantation. I had not been aware of the latter segment of the group. To have remained there for essentially a century after slavery was abolished seemed to say something to me. The college was founded for "the education of white girls and young women" as stated in the will of the donor. You can see how the lawyers got around that little phrase in order to accept black women, but lately with transgender issues they are going with the phrase open to all people who consider themselves to be female. I think that legislation helps to work against discrimination but in a democratic society you cannot change the way people feel. And, of course, while blacks are the ones we hear about the most, there are other segments of the population that are not treated equally.
Andy wrote: "And, of course, while blacks are the ones we hear about the most, there are other segments of the population that are not treated equally.."Oh, absolutely.
Andy wrote: "I think that legislation helps to work against discrimination but in a democratic society you cannot change the way people feel."
I agree that legislation can help but I do think you can change the way people feel. It takes time and it takes effort, but I think people are capable of changing.
In my experience, changes in attitudes have most often been preceded by intimate, personal experience. Case in point: I have some friends (older and male) who were (are?) wrestling with the transgender issue. For years they've been on the side of not wanting "their" women to be subjected to/encounter a transgender woman in a public restroom. Their main concern, it seemed to me, was the specter of rape. No amount of arguing on my part [transgendered people are not (as a rule) sexual predators (yes, there may be exceptions), if a man is a rapist, he'll enter a female public restroom no matter what - he doesn't have to "pretend" to be female, etc., etc., etc.] changed anyone's mind. Ever.
Then, a woman approached one of the guys (he owns the boatyard) asking if she could build her kayak in the boatyard. Yes, yes, absolutely. She was assigned a tent and began the build. They had a great time speaking with her and hanging out in the tiki hut. In time, they found out she was transgender. They were fine with it. They liked her.
She finished her kayak and is gone from the boatyard now. Recently, the issue of transgender people and bathrooms came up again (AGAIN!). And they're still railing about "their" women (this issue of "owning" the women in their lives is an ongoing argument, as well.....) and transgender people in bathrooms. So I asked them which bathroom should Kayak Woman use?? Huh. Well.
Finally, someone answered: The women's room, naturally. Huh. Well.
The last time transgender issues came up in conversation, it seemed to me that the issue has become much less black and white in their heads. That grey area... I can work with that....
Kristina Simon wrote: "Andy wrote: "And, of course, while blacks are the ones we hear about the most, there are other segments of the population that are not treated equally.."Oh, absolutely.
Andy wrote: "I think that..."
I think it is difficult to judge something you have not experienced and so your analogy of Kayak women works well because they were finally experiencing. I like to think I am empathetic to other people even if I have never walked their walk but that only goes so far.
I feel like I learned so much from everyone's posts about this book! This was a tough book in parts so I took it slow and digested as I read. I had many conversations with my spouse about Mr. Northrup's experiences and thoughts as I went along. I don't always like comparing his thoughts and experiences with current day events and opinions. Although I know we have far to go today, critiquing his opinions and the events of his time as not going far enough do not do justice to the fortitude and courage of Northrup and his peers to survive and, for a few, ultimately be free of the horrors of the pre-Civil War South. Despite the controversies about it, and i concur it doesn't go far enough to tell the truth about the Antebellum South, I really wish this was required reading in high school or college. Being a millenial, I went to school during a time of less but increasing inclusion of the African American experience in American history and English classes (depending on the area/school I'm sure). I was assigned Uncle Tom's Cabin (DNF) and Invisible Man (read and influenced me deeply), and I would like to revisit them. I think for many readers it is a reading goal the read more people of color, me included. I hope as a country we continue to march toward greater understanding, cooperation, and education about this and peripheral subjects. I'm looking forward to the next Gutenberg reading option and plotting my next social justice/civil rights reading. I would love to read more James Baldwin and to my great shame have not read Malcolm X or nearly enough MLK. And how many great authors and works have I missed? Too many I'm sure. Here's to learning and growing in 2021!
Mod
It also reminds me a lot of Nelson Mandela, after he was finally released from prison. He made a point of not seeking revenge, but of moving on.
In terms of free blacks living in the south, I was surprised to learn how many blacks after gaining their freedom (or never being slaves) remained. In a library book group, we read The Invention of Wings, historical fiction about the Grimke sisters, primarily set in Charleston, SC, and the discussion leader surprised all of us by discussing the fact that there were a large number of free blacks who lived in Charleston, as well as in other parts of the south. From what I've read, this was a significant factor in the white fears about slave rebellions - that they were organized by and encouraged/supported by free blacks.
CYNBAXTERI have been meaning to read Twelve Years a Slave for years and well….so many books, so little time. I missed the opportunity the last time this was offered as a Group Reads so I vowed to take advantage of the selection this time around. And I am so glad that I read this important and necessary work.
While I have read many fictional accounts about slavery, I have never read a direct memoir – one so rich in detail. I wondered while reading it how Mr. Northup's level of recall could be so precise after such a passage of time but then as I thought about it further, these details were seared into his mind as he endured and I hope that this narration and recollection brought him some catharsis.
As usual, whenever I read a historical book, whether fiction or non-fiction, I go “down a rabbit hole” on reading further about the subject, the people, the places. This book was no different and prompted many searches online, a viewing of the award-winning movie (which was just as difficult to watch in some sections as it was to read of them) and many, many discussions with family and friends. I feel this has opened up dialogue at a new level amongst us and I thank you for offering this book again.
I watched the film of this when it came out, and was deeply moved by it, and I’m glad to have finally read the firsthand account.My thoughts on reading:
I found his writing style remarkably clear for the time. You can tell this is a written account designed to help further the cause of justice, where every name, location, time and place can be corroborated to the best ability, and no detail of truth is lost to over flowery language as one might find in a novel.
The portrayal of William Ford is particularly interesting. Other, crueller slave owners and traders portrayed are easily signposted as villains, brutal and vicious and evil through and through. The notion of a ‘good slave owner’ is deeply uncomfortable. I feel like a large part of this portrayal is some form of Stockholm syndrome, where Northup has feared the worst being sold into slavery and as a result the smallest morsel of kindness is overwhelming proof of goodness to him. I also suspect a certain part of this portrayal is a sort of soft-sell of slave abolition. This memoir is clearly designed to try and further the abolitionist movement, and if outright abolition is not possible I can see how he might want to offer an example of how slavery could be used in a “less evil” way.
It brought to mind Mr Rochester in Jane Eyre, and his keeping Bertha locked in the attic. To modern sensibilities this seems overwhelmingly cruel and unthinkable as a way to treat the mentally ill, but at the time it would have been a vast improvement over the alternative of being sent to an asylum. The enslavement of any human is abhorrent to us today, but at the time perhaps Ford thought he was doing the right and good thing by buying slaves who might otherwise go to cruel masters, and treat them with some level of humanity. It makes me think what actions we do today as the most ethical choice we feel able to make, and how that may seem in the future. There are certainly always improvements we can make.
Apologies for typos I was writing on my phone! Will fix once I am back on my laptop...
I think Northup himself was also very aware of this overly positive portrayal, saying something to the effect of"I think the only problem with this writing is it showing too good and light a portrayal of the situation.” (I returned the book so don’t have the actual quote). He was aware of his relative privilege in being a free man to begin with, educated and able to read and write, with contacts willing to help him - a privilege few of his contemporaries had. It is an incredible example of what what we mean when we say “check your privilege” these days. We can be deeply troubled and discriminated against whilst still acknowledging our own privileges, and how others will suffer worse than we will in the same circumstances. It is truly humbling.
Bookwrm526I bought a copy of this on my kindle ages ago, around when the movie came out I think. But I had been putting it off because I knew it was going to be difficult. So thank you for giving me a reason to finally face it.
Solomon's story is unimaginably horrifying, solely for the aspect of being a free man and suddenly finding yourself enslaved. It becomes even more horrifying when you read about everything he went through, and the despair he had of ever finding his way home. And yet the way it is written, even though he shares in great detail what happened and what he was feeling, somehow feels like it is buffering the reader from the worst of it.
The story of Patsey was just as heartbreaking as Solomon's own story, though for totally different reasons.
This was a compelling first-hand account of life as a slave in 19th century America. Mr. Northup's story illustrates the unspeakable cruelty of slavery. What strength of character it took to survive that long, never knowing if he would be free or would see his family again. I did some research on what happened to Mr. Northup after he was restored to freedom. There is little information available. According to Britannica, he was last seen in 1857, and there is evidence that he joined the Underground Railroad and helped escaped slaves to freedom. There is no record of his death. His wife Anne died in 1876, and it is suggested that he predeceased her.
I'm glad this was chosen as a group read, because I probably wouldn't have read it otherwise. I found it to be very readable.I was very interested to read about the law that was used to free Solomon Northrup. Last year I was reading about Sojourner Truth and was surprised to find that she had been born a slave in New York State. Also, the Fugitive Slave Law (Federal legislation) mandated that slaves who escaped to northern states could be returned to their owners, which meant that the slaves needed to continue into Canada in order to be safe. So the idea that a white man could be dispatched to retrieve Mr. Northrup based on his standing in New York illustrated the contradictions of the time.
I found the last chapter (before the appendices) to be the most emotional, when he actually realized he was going home.
But there was no mention of any form of compensation to him or his family for the twelve years where he wasn't able to maintain his living in New York. This may be a 21st century concept (compensation/reparation), but it bothered me that it didn't come up in any form.
3 stars.oh my goodness! This took me forever to finish. The story was interesting but, oh boy, did the author go into detail in some areas. The way the author discussed his time as a slave was toned down regarding the level of brutality and deprivation that the slaves endured - perhaps due to the period in which the book was written - and therefore, I didn't connect as strongly to the character as I might have.
The Seasonal Reading Challenge
Books mentioned in this topic
Twelve Years a Slave (other topics)The Invention of Wings (other topics)
Uncle Tom’s Cabin (other topics)
12 Years a Slave (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Harriet Beecher Stowe (other topics)Solomon Northup (other topics)
Project Gutenberg books are in the public domain. You may download them in ePub or Kindle eBook format to read on an eBook reader or you can read them online. You can find links to download the Group Read book here: Twelve Years a Slave
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