Devils Cub Nov 2020 spoilers thread.

[Jackie]

Teresa wrote: "I don't remember a time (since I joined this group) such an intense discussion on a book. It certainly has divided people. Very interesting."
yes, I am really enjoying it. when everyone agrees there isn't as much to talk about!

wonderful points, Grrrrace, especially about Comyn. I think he deserves his own book so he can be the hero.

[Grrrrace]

mark wrote: "Loved this perspective on how nuanced Comyn is as a character. And how he's actually a great match for Juliana, if he'd give in to his (barely) buried romanticism. It's great how Heyer just drops t..."

Exactly--and nicely and concisely stated. And if we had any doubt about the suitability of Mary and Comyn: "By the time Miss Challoner and Mr. Comyn reached Dijon, neither regarded the coming nuptials with anything but feelings of profound depression...." :-D

[Grrrrace]

>>I think he deserves his own book so he can be the hero.<<

I wonder how he'd fare in Heyer's hands as a hero. I'd like to see Hugh Davenant from TOS in a leading role too--it's a pity we get only a glimpse of him in TDC!

[Julie]

Grrrrace wrote: "Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Yes, well said Grrrace - Vidal is a complex character & I don't think any other author could have pulled this off!"

I agree! That complexity is what makes Heyer so e..."

Wonderful summary Grrrace, thank you. It clarifies something which has bothered me, which is why Mary would be attracted to Vidal, whom she acknowledges behaves like a sulky child at times. ‘Opposites attract’ didn’t seem sufficient, but I think your analysis is spot on.

I was a little late getting to this one so have missed joining the discussions. But I’ve been following them and enjoying both the read and the lively debate!

Despite Vidal being a challenging hero, I really enjoy DC. I love watching how Mary manages him! And as others have mentioned, Mary’s scene with the Duke, which I remember from last time, stands out as the most delightfully comic one I’ve read yet in Heyer.

[Grrrrace]

Julie wrote: "Grrrrace wrote: "Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Yes, well said Grrrace - Vidal is a complex character & I don't think any other author could have pulled this off!"

I agree! That complexity is what..."

Avon steals every scene he's in. The hilarious recap at the end of DC is one of my all-time favorite Heyer scenes as well!

[Julie]

Abigail wrote: "I seem to recall Venetia bringing out a variety of strong opinions, as well as Beaumaris in Arabella."

Indeed. Venetia was my first ever group read, I remember being quite unprepared for the strong opinions it generated!

[Elizabeth]

Grrrrace wrote an excellent summary of various points in the discussion...

... which for some reason made me think about the scene between Vidal and Julianna when they're on the road to Dijon (is it Dijon? Then I understand about Rupert's obsession with the wine). Julianna is rather obtuse about Mary's ordeal; Vidal demonstrates just how unpleasant he can be. So perhaps he does grow, after all – in self-awareness and empathy. Doesn't Avon remark on his son's astonishing insight – So after you shot him, Miss Challoner, he realized that you weren't being coquettish, after all? My, my.

I'd forgotten about the throttling, though. That is horrible. I think I must have been quite a little Julianna myself when I first read this!

[Susan in Perthshire]

Elizabeth wrote: "Grrrrace wrote an excellent summary of various points in the discussion...

... which for some reason made me think about the scene between Vidal and Julianna when they're on the road to Dijon (is ..."

Great points Elizabeth.

Sorry to step out of the 'fictional' world for a moment, but I am blaming the throttling on Heyer herself. Whether it was a reflection of her own contextual mindset or a reflection of the period she was writing about - the throttling was still utterly unacceptable. I really don't think the 'Dominic' that she created, would have done that.
Call me foolish or naive - it just doesn't feel right.

[Jackie]

I feel the same way about (view spoiler)[ Sherry boxing Hero/Kitten's ears (hide spoiler)] in Friday's Child. I've just learned to over-look it.

[mark]

The throttling was the tipping point for me, as far as my perspective on Vidal goes. It's sort of funny in a way, I can excuse the first shooting and (much less so) the second, but the choking Mary to threaten her into compliance scene really turned me against the character. Took a long time for me to recover and begin rooting for him.

[Emmy]

Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Sorry to step out of the 'fictional' world for a moment, but I am blaming the throttling on Heyer herself. Whether it was a reflection of her own contextual mindset or a reflection of the period she was writing about - the throttling was still utterly unacceptable. I really don't think the 'Dominic' that she created, would have done that.
Call me foolish or naive - it just doesn't feel right."

I think I understand what you mean: that Dominic's throttling of Mary is out of character. But I think I must disagree. It's, unfortunately, central to his character :/ It's why Mary goes so far as to shoot at him. She knows he is capable of overwhelming her with physical strength and so she has to do something drastic.

Jackie wrote: "I feel the same way about (view spoiler) in Friday's Child. I've just learned to over-look it."

I find that bit in Friday's Child (and in the Corinthian too) easier to look past because it's a blink-and-you-will-miss-it moment. Unfortunately this doesn't apply to DC, where it's a major dramatic scene and Mary's throttling is described quite vividly in its brutality. Howevermuch I love DC, the uncomfortable truth is that the scene does happen, Vidal does do it, and I can reconcile myself to the romance only by the knowledge that Mary will shoot him if he tries to do it again.

[Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂]

As ugly as the throttling is, it explains why Mary couldn't get out of the situation.

Dominic was too drunk to reason with and after that, she was in no shape to do her (what comes to be normal) manipulation of him.

& his conversation with Juliana does show he is ashamed (or as near to ashamed as he is capapble of getting)

[Emmy]

Christmas Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "& his conversation with Juliana does show he is ashamed (or as near to ashamed as he is capapble of getting)."

Yes, ashamed and also self-aware. He makes no excuses for his behaviour, he knows it's bad and he says so. Juliana is inclined to think of him as romantically wild and passionate. He's the one who laughs at her for thinking this.

He looked at Juliana. ‘You think it was vastly romantic for Mary to be carried off by me, don’t you? You think you would enjoy it, and you cannot conceive how she should be afraid, can you? Then think, my girl! Think a little! You are in my power at this moment, I may remind you. What if I make you feel it? What if I say to start with that you shall eat your dinner, and force it down your throat?’ Juliana shrank back from him involuntarily. ‘Don’t, Vidal! Don’t come near me!’ she said, frightened by the expression in his face. He laughed. ‘Not so romantic, is it, Ju? And to force you to eat your dinner would be a small thing compared with some other things I might force you to do. Sit down, I’m not going to touch you.’

Heyer, Georgette. Devil's Cub (Alastair-Audley) (pp. 225-226). Random House. Kindle Edition.

[Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂]

Yes - far from romanticising the situation & shows Dominic is aware he doesn't deserve Mary!

[Elizabeth]

Emilia wrote: "Christmas Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "& his conversation with Juliana does show he is ashamed (or as near to ashamed as he is capapble of getting)."

Yes, ashamed and also self-aware.."

Thanks for finding the scene for us, Emilia! That's the one ... All my Heyer books are at our place in France, alas, so I'm having to rely on my memory...

[Jenny]

Christmas Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Dominic was too drunk to reason with and after that, she was in no shape to do her (what comes to be normal) manipulation of him...."

It's the shooting that changes everything, isn't it? Before that, Dominic has all the power because of his greater physical strength, his social clout - ie his control of other people who might otherwise help Mary - his ruthlessness and his utter disrespect of one whom he supposes to be a loose woman. That's what makes Mary powerless.
Once she's shot him the balance of power shifts in her favour because as a lady (especially one who reminds him of his mother!) she has his respect and she knows he now won't physically harm her: she can manage him.
What is still working against her, though, is the risk to her reputation in the eyes of the world and indeed her own feelings for Dominic: she must marry somebody, but doesn't want to harm Dominic by marrying him, which puts her in an impossible situation. In evading Dominic's insistence on marrying her, she's not afraid of him, but for him.

I was thinking earlier, regarding how the mores of his time affected Dominic's behaviour, whether he would have behaved in the same way had he been living today; and I realised that the whole story just could not have happened today. What drives the narrative is the crucial distinction between the 'loose' woman and the 'virtuous' one and the central importance of her sexual reputation to a woman's life. Without that, there is no need for Dominic to marry Mary - and no need for Mary to have rescued Sophia in the the first place. Future generations who have forgotten such a distinction ever existed will be as baffled by Devil's Cub as the characters in Brave New World are by Romeo and Juliet!

[mark]

I love this analysis, thank you!

[Jackie]

yes, wonderful post, Jenny.

[Critterbee❇]

Wow, I had never thought about it that way Jenny, and you're dead on!

[Grrrrace]

Great points! That moment is most definitely the turning point between them.

[Emmy]

Jenny wrote: "Christmas Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "I was thinking earlier, regarding how the mores of his time affected Dominic's behaviour, whether he would have behaved in the same way had he been living today; and I realised that the whole story just could not have happened today. What drives the narrative is the crucial distinction between the 'loose' woman and the 'virtuous' one and the central importance of her sexual reputation to a woman's life. Without that, there is no need for Dominic to marry Mary - and no need for Mary to have rescued Sophia in the the first place. Future generations who have forgotten such a distinction ever existed will be as baffled by Devil's Cub as the characters in Brave New World are by Romeo and Juliet!"

You are so right, Jenny! The book very much hinges on the status of women (loose or virtuous) and also class, of course (Vidal being a nobleman and different rules attaching to him than they would to an ordinary gentleman let alone any ordinary man is key to the plot). It really is a story very grounded in its historical setting.

[Elizabeth]

Jenny wrote: "I was thinking earlier, regarding how the mores of his time affected Dominic's behaviour, whether he would have behaved in the same way had he been living today; and I realised that the whole story just could not have happened today."

Now religion and politics are not polite topics of conversation, but all the same let me briefly take issue with that, Jenny – most societies today are pretty diverse and many different folks have many different values. Some of us are deeply rooted in systems where the family, not the individual, is all important, and honour matters very much indeed.

With regard to the shooting, however, I think you're spot on!

[Jenny]

Elizabeth wrote: "Some of us are deeply rooted in systems where the family, not the individual, is all important..."

Yes, of course - I was thinking of the characters occupying the same positions today as they do in the book. Somebody like Sophia today wouldn't need rescuing from having a fling with somebody like Dominic and somebody like Mary wouldn't need to get married if she'd been in Dominic's company overnight.

[Elizabeth]

Jenny wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "Some of us are deeply rooted in systems where the family, not the individual, is all important..."

Yes, of course - I was thinking of the characters occupying the same positions..."

And so you'd said, Jenny! Sorry, I back-projected your last sentence about "future generations of readers" to the previous sentences, careless of me! Thanks for clarifying – and you're right, of course!

[Michaela]

Sorry I didn´t read all four pages of comments, so might repeat what´s already been said.

I finished it today, and had real problems with this second read. Vidal is such a violent and dominant person I can hardly understand why Mary falls in love with him. Of course all the banter is funny, but his killing one man and nearly another, drugging and threatening Mary isn´t to my taste. And there´s his drinking and playing, seducing women regularely etc. Vidal´s domineering not only as a man, but also as a "nobleman", while Mary´s only chance is to fly. Yes, she wounds him, but on the whole I can hardly imagine her taming Vidal.

[Jackie]

reading other people's comments is the best thing about this group, IMO. especially when people don't agree.

[Susan in Perthshire]

Michaela wrote: "Sorry I didn´t read all four pages of comments, so might repeat what´s already been said.

I finished it today, and had real problems with this second read. Vidal is such a violent and dominant per..."


If you haven’t already done so, I suggest you read ‘An Infamous Army’ to find out! 😉

[Michaela]

Will do Susan, and yes, I should catch up with the other comments Jackie! :)

[Jackie]

:)

[Big Fan]

Here's to a couple of very funny passages which don't get much comment.
John Marling obediently skip Phlogistics to pick up Leonie. Their interaction and her putdown of him in comparison with Dominic was great. Then, after she returns from meeting Mrs Challoner, she smashes a figurine and has a tiff with Fanny about their respective sons. Not quite as funny as another five minute tiff (view spoiler)[ (Kitty and Margaret in Cotillion) (hide spoiler)] but illuminates the characters.