Georgette Heyer Fans discussion
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Devils Cub Nov 2020 spoilers thread.
Jenny wrote: "Teresa wrote: "I applauded her for doing it :):) She certainly has gumption that gal!!!"So did Dominic, which I think tells us a lot about him. He recognises that she was right to do it, and admi..."
Great observation Jenny! I don’t think I’d thought that through before but of course you are correct.
I love your poem, Critterbee! and it's true, I "love" a rake to read about but not to marry.
Jenny, he does let know Vidal know specifically that he must stick to amusing himself only with Sophia.
Mod
No, he knows that Vidal already knows that and that's what he intends. But Avon wants him to have nothing to do with Sophia and stick to 'women of a certain class' (ie what the next generation would call 'bits of muslin'!) or 'women of your own kind, who know how the game should be played'. Because he knows that trifling with the bourgeoisie only leads to trouble (and he's right, of course).
But he leaves it as advice, which Vidal ignores, and I suspect he's been doing that all along; and that's how Vidal comes to be 'spoilt' in spite of having a father that he does obey when given a direct order.
Jenny wrote: "The man he has seemed to be up to now would have yelled "You effing bitch!", beaten her up and raped her anyway - but in fact, that's not what he's like."I see the point that you're making but that's a pretty low bar for a man, and especially a romantic hero.
I am definitely of the opinion that Vidal works only in the confines of a novel, where his level of roguishness can be carefully controlled for our comfort levels by our imaginations.
Jenny wrote: "No, he knows that Vidal already knows that and that's what he intends. But Avon wants..."& yet, (& this is a definite weakness - one of the reasons it doesn't pay to analyse this book too deeply!) it never occurs to Avon or Vidal that Sophy could be related to Sir Giles - even though Challoner is an unusual surname. GH does partially handle this by having Vidal have very little conversation with Mary prior to the abduction, (so isn't aware of her more refined manner) but Avon is supposed to be omniscient!
Emilia wrote: "I am definitely of the opinion that Vidal works only in the confines of a novel, where his level of roguishness can be carefully controlled for our comfort levels by our imaginations."
That is a very good way of putting it!
Ah wrote: "I think one of the problems with it is I see no real change in Vidal. Ay change in behaviour is because he wants Mary and can't get her on any other terms, NOT because he is less self centred!Whe..."
Very well put Ah!
Teresa wrote: "Ah wrote: "I think one of the problems with it is I see no real change in Vidal. Ay change in behaviour is because he wants Mary and can't get her on any other terms, NOT because he is less self ce..."I think maybe the growth Vidal experiences is not that he becomes less selfish or spoilt, but that he becomes less cold and careless. At the beginning of the novel, Vidal is very cold-blooded. There are few things he cares about (his parents mostly) and especially not the women in his life. He cares so little about what bit of muslin accompanies him that he takes Mary instead of Sophia just like that, as if all women were interchangeable for him.
By the end of the novel, he does not feel this way about Mary. Mary is not replaceable, and he puts himself out to a considerable degree to bring her comfort, to protect her reputation and to arrange for a respectable way to get her out of the trouble he has dragged her into. He does this even before he knows he is in love with her.
Realistically (though maybe to some disappointingly) the change that happens is not a fundamental transformation of his character to a selfless, noble gentleman, but rather it is more that a side of his character that already existed but was buried deep under years of never being expected to use it, of society cosseting and spoiling him, was brought out by his adventure with Mary.
Jackie wrote: "Elizabeth, who is Daddy Longlegs?"He's the hero of Jean Webster's eponymous epistolary novel ... not set in the Regency England but in pre-WWI New England. The book sprang to mind because it features a similar kind of betrayal as Jane Eyre. I loved Mr Rochester when I was a teenager, and took a long time admitting what a worm he really is.
To bring this back on topic: At least Vidal is honest about his intentions.
Teresa wrote: "Too close to the bone."Your comment kind of stuck with me, Teresa. Although I find what has been said here about the real life/fiction divide very soothing, reading about things that I would hate happening to me in real life is still rather a guilty pleasure, because it is a pleasure. I've led a very sheltered life, and I often wonder how someone who's had real experience of these kinds of people or situations would feel about them in a book. You won't want to take this further, and I understand – just wanted you to know that you've been on my mind. But you've been in this group much longer than me and know that we're not as flighty as we may sometimes seem ;-).
On the other hand, the heroines do come out right, and the hero is brought under control. Possibly these plots are really female power fantasies, and that is what makes them so satisfying. Hm, I have a feeling that this is not a very original insight ;-).
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Yes & this feels like the right moment for me to include a quote from my favourite Mills & Boon author, Daphne Clair."Fantastic quote, Carol! Reminds me of discussing my taste in films with my Dad, who rather looked down his nose, but laughed out loud when I said someone who watched motorcycle races for his entertainment was hardly in a position to criticise a penchant for costume films.
Elizabeth wrote: "Jackie wrote: "Elizabeth, who is Daddy Longlegs?"He's the hero of Jean Webster's eponymous epistolary novel ... not set in the Regency England but in pre-WWI New England. The book sprang to mind ..."
Mr Rochester - a worm?
/Critterbee backs quickly and quietly out of the room/
Elizabeth wrote: "Teresa wrote: "Too close to the bone."Your comment kind of stuck with me, Teresa. Although I find what has been said here about the real life/fiction divide very soothing, reading about things th..."
Thank you Elizabeth for your kind words and thoughts.
I’ll defend the characterization of Mr. Rochester as a worm! The guy who ritually humiliates the woman he’s putatively attracted to by parading his rich friends before her, forcing her to confront her inferior position and defenselessness? The guy who tries to trick her into a sham marriage when’s he’s already married? That guy? Worm covers it for me. He’s an S/M dominator without the safe word.
Just a reminder that this is a discussion for Devil's Cub everyone. 😊
Just finished this tonight! Can't believe I managed to stay awake after the usual Thanksgiving gorge but I guess it's that Heyer pacing that kept me awake and turning pages. and now I'm here posting thoughts.- This is one of my less favorite Heyers so far. But still enjoyed it and could see myself re-reading
- To weigh in on the Vidal debate in this thread, I do think he's a sociopath. But for the most part, I didn't hold that against him, I guess? As a character, he fascinated me. I loved that opening scene with all of the emphasis on how casual his killing of the highwayman was. I didn't actually hold that against him either. Honestly, I was smiling at how much Heyer emphasized how nonchalant he was about the whole thing. Maybe I'm callous. But I was less pro-Vidal during the gambling scene. Still, the portrait of Vidal being quietly drunk, dangerous, and scary was really well-done. A tense, uncomfortable, very absorbing scene.
- I was less sold on Vidal as a romantic lead. Maybe in a bodice ripper, where I'm reading with a certain distance and irony, I'd feel less repulsion. But in a Heyer novel, not so much. It comes down to that one short scene where he chokes Mary, bruising her throat, threatens to do more, just to show her who's boss. That was so loathsome that I lost interest in sympathizing let alone relating to him. One of the things I've enjoyed about Heyer novels is that I can often relate to the male leads in one way or another. That scene just took me out of the novel, in a way, and made Vidal something alien to me. I wish Heyer hadn't included it.
- And so I particularly loved the scene where Mary shoots him. Yay!
- All that said, I did find the later scenes of Vidal expressing his love for her to be endearing & sweet. It was also pretty cool how automatic it was for him to insist on marriage to save both of their reputations. Loved the concern he demonstrated on her behalf. I ended up rooting for them as a couple, which surprised me. Although I do wish that Heyer had included at least 1 more scene of their journey to Paris because it felt like that's where his love for her really grew. Vidal & Mary are really interesting characters to me so I would love to have read even more scenes of them figuring each other out.
- OK that was a WTF scene with Vidal's valet going on & on about how Vidal just has the perfect body to hang clothes on. WTF but also hilarious? And also out of place. Not sure why that had to be included except to underline that Vidal exerts a lot of animal magnetism on women and valets alike. I smiled a lot during that scene, but the actual placing of the scene - during the most page-turning parts of the novel - felt really off.
- I feel like l'm complaining a lot, and I gave this 3 stars as opposed to the 4 or 5 stars that I usually give Heyer novels, so I want to emphasize that I sill enjoyed this one. I read the first third leisurely over the course of a couple weeks. And then I read the last two-thirds in one big page-turning rush. The writing is top-notch.
- Also, Mary Challoner is a fantastic heroine. Loved her. She's totally a Virgo. Leonie is totally an Aries. Why am I even talking about astrology right now? I blame it on Thanksgiving dinner conversation, which was also about astrology.
- After going through a bunch of reviews, I know that I'm stating the obvious here but I still have to say: that scene at the end with Mary detailing her story to the (awesome) Duke of Avon was phenomenal! I was so entertained. Who would have thought that a lengthy scene where a heroine recounts the plot of the book that the reader has literally just read could be so completely entertaining? It really comes down to the author's command of how to write a scene where one character's subtle reactions to what they're being told create all of the humor, tension, and emotion. I smiled so much during that scene, it was perfect.
I think the scene where Mary describes her plight to the Duke was maybe the best in the book. And I liked it a lot more than you did, Mark, so that's saying a lot. I also really enjoyed Vidal's valet telling him he has no faults, as far as his ability to show off his clothes. It's funny because, unlike some of Heyer's heros, he really doesn't care.
All great points, Mark!Vidal's force was a bit excessive, and there really is no excuse for it other than to emphasis his attempt to be uncaring and Mary's poise and strength. It is less offensive if a person were to grab another person by the throat if they were evenly matched in age, strength and ability, otherwise it is bullying.
I think the valet scene is another example of Heyer sticking in a calm, matter-of-fact scene in the middle of all the tension. I like when she does that, as it gives my brain a chance to catch up with my heart during the dramatic parts.
Completely agree - Mary is totally a Virgo, and Leonie is an Aries (and maybe Vidal, too). I was thinking maybe he was a Leo, but sometimes I think his confidence is not 100% there to be an alpha, and that causes him to act out and try to emphasis that 'yes, yes, I really AM a badass.'
Very interesting takes, Mark! I do love that scene where Mary is driven to desperation, really up against the wall, and Avon knows just how to handle her; his growing respect for her as she struggles to collect herself and honestly tells her tale. I think the length is necessary to give him a chance to get to know her, assess her character, and approve of her as a daughter-in-law. Probably most readers realize who he is immediately and the scene draws its tension from the wait to see when Mary will realize it and whether he will regard her kindly.As for the valet scene, you make a good point that it is a fish out of water in this story. Valets drawing their sense of worth from the perfections of their master’s person and presentation became a staple in her novels, always played for comedy. I’m guessing this was when she first had the idea, and she was so in love with it that she had to find a way to include it even though it didn’t really fit in with the more melodramatic tone of her youthful works. At various points in this story I could feel her Regency classics starting to take shape in the back of her mind; in my review I wrote something to the effect that this is the novel where her talent first comes into its own.
mark wrote: "Just finished this tonight! Can't believe I managed to stay awake after the usual Thanksgiving gorge but I guess it's that Heyer pacing that kept me awake and turning pages. and now I'm here postin..."Jackie wrote: "I think the scene where Mary describes her plight to the Duke was maybe the best in the book. And I liked it a lot more than you did, Mark, so that's saying a lot.
I also really enjoyed Vidal's va..."
I agree with your points, and glad you enjoyed Thanksgiving! I really can’t speak to the is he/isn’t he a sociopath, because I don’t know enough about psychology- but I’m old enough to know what I do and don’t like in books, and in young men’s behavior (I have a 25 year old son). I definitely didn’t enjoy the scene where he puts his hand on Mary’s throat, and I also liked when she shot him! Up til then, he was acting like a spoiled child deprived of a treat - in this case, a young woman of supposedly easy virtue to debauch for his amusement during his enforced flight to the continent.
We’ve discussed at length the sin of imposing modern sensibilities on historical books, and I wholeheartedly agree! However, there are timeless virtues, such as chivalry and behaving “like a gentleman” to those weaker and less fortunate. I could never see Hugo from “Unknown Ajax” or Freddy from “Cotillion” or Gilly from “Founding” (three of my favorites), doing that to Mary, or any young woman, no matter her supposed morals or lack thereof.
That’s why this was only my second read of this one, I guess - I enjoyed it years ago when first discovering Heyer, probably because, as Abigail wisely points out, the seeds of her later genius were apparent! Once I discovered those later works, I was in no hurry to go back...
Oh, and I really enjoyed the scene at the end with the Duke, that was most satisfying!
Mod
I've been thinking that, too: GH's writing style is at its best at this time, isn't it? The irritating cod-period affectations of Beauvallet and The Masqueraders have gone and she hasn't yet started to pile on the carefully-researched period slang just to show off, the way she had begun to by the end. There's just enough of the 'Egad!' and 'La, sir!' to give an C18th feel, without bogging us down in boxing cant and horsey jargon.
But I do agree that the valet's admiration goes on too long, and usually skip that bit.
Yes after around 100 reads I'm skimming the valet's bit.But GH does really well both in TOS & DC in making the heroes & their clothes seem masculine.
& I do like the feeling that this book is written at full tilt.
& all the violence in Vidal's behaviour, helps to explain Mary being desperate enough to risk killing him to stop him (Mary shuts her eyes when she shoots him)
Just to weigh in on the Vidal as sociopath issue, I think in the strict sense of the word, Vidal is not a sociopath.From the NHS website:
person with antisocial personality disorder may:
exploit, manipulate or violate the rights of others
lack concern, regret or remorse about other people's distress
behave irresponsibly and show disregard for normal social behaviour
have difficulty sustaining long-term relationships
be unable to control their anger
lack guilt, or not learn from their mistakes
blame others for problems in their lives
repeatedly break the law
The website does go on to say that the disorder exists on a spectrum, so there are people who are more extreme than others exhibiting these symptoms. It is also thought to be the result of childhood trauma and neglect.
I'd say that Vidal probably had a good childhood, and I rather doubt he experienced the sort of neglect or abuse that would lead to sociopathy (his mother seems to love him almost too much). He is, however, far more aggressive than I would consider normal. But I think that's just that. He's an aggressive dude, whom society never taught to put a check on this tendency. It was a different time, and he was from a sphere of society where he could allow himself far more than an ordinary citizen at the time would have.
For example, the other day I was in hospital and of course we all had to wear masks. I was sitting in the waiting room and opposite me (at a sensible distance) sat this guy, also in a mask. And then suddenly this guy literally pulled down his mask under his chin, sneezed, and then put his mask up again. Now, this is 21st century Britain, and I am obliged not to slay him. But imagine if I were an 18th century nobleman!
mark wrote: "All that said, I did find the later scenes of Vidal expressing his love for her to be endearing & sweet. It was also pretty cool how automatic it was for him to insist on marriage to save both of their reputations. Loved the concern he demonstrated on her behalf. I ended up rooting for them as a couple, which surprised me. Although I do wish that Heyer had included at least 1 more scene of their journey to Paris because it felt like that's where his love for her really grew. Vidal & Mary are really interesting characters to me so I would love to have read even more scenes of them figuring each other out."100% agree with this! I am usually a big hater of a-hole heroes in novels, and don't like abusive jerks, but I too found myself surprisingly rooting for Mary and Vidal. I really think it comes down to Mary, and the fact that at no point am I really concerned that she won't handle the situation. A weak, meek, doormat heroine would have absolutely ruined the romance in this story.
Abigail wrote: "As for the valet scene, you make a good point that it is a fish out of water in this story. Valets drawing their sense of worth from the perfections of their master’s person and presentation became a staple in her novels, always played for comedy. I’m guessing this was when she first had the idea, and she was so in love with it that she had to find a way to include it even though it didn’t really fit in with the more melodramatic tone of her youthful works."This is so true - it was a self-indulgent moment for Heyer to include that scene. But still, she has the skill to pull this off without ruining the story somehow. Honestly, as someone who likes to write, I have no clue how she pulls this off.
Whenever my husband and I read Heyer novels together, we have an eye-roll moment when it comes to the unnecessary, over-detailed explanations of people's wardrobes.
You’re right, Emilia, the “mechanics” are rarely visible in her stories, no matter how many times I read them. Yes, a lot of the books open with expository scenes where (usually) the hero’s family gets revealed through dialogue with an exasperated family member, but the conversation is usually lively enough that you don’t feel subjected to an infodump. She’s very good at what’s known in screenwriting as the pope-in-the-pool strategy. I’ve always been impressed with how the plot dilemmas in her better books seem to evolve naturally out of the clash of personalities. That kind of seamless skill always leaves me breathless with awe.
Emilia, thanks for putting up that list! But doesn't Vidal actually exhibit all of those behaviors, at one point or another? The only one that had me wondering was the "Blame others" but then I recalled the scene where he did just that - not sure with who, either his uncle or mother - when he implied he was who he was because of his parents?That said, I'd prefer to see him as a person with sociopathic behavior, but one who is going through changes to be better, due to Mary. Who will hopefully help him stop doing all or at least most of those things. I'm a glass half-full kinda guy!
Jackie wrote: "I also really enjoyed Vidal's valet telling him he has no faults, as far as his ability to show off his clothes. It's funny because, unlike some of Heyer's heros, he really doesn't care...."He's no Freddy from Cotillion! One of my favorite characters in the Heyer novels I've read.
Abigail wrote: "At various points in this story I could feel her Regency classics starting to take shape in the back of her mind..."I love this take. Especially in the context of fashion scenes in future novels. Although I'm not sure I know where this is in the order of her novels, I will have to check that out. This feels like earlier Heyer, in a way, despite it being beautifully written and (for the most) paced.
Critterbee❇ wrote: "Completely agree - Mary is totally a Virgo, and Leonie is an Aries..."I may have decided the latter because my mother was exhibiting distinctly Leonie-like behavior during Thanksgiving! LOL. She always say exactly what she's thinking, including if her mind is changing mid-sentence.
Susan in NC wrote: "We’ve discussed at length the sin of imposing modern sensibilities on historical books, and I wholeheartedly agree! However, there are timeless virtues, such as chivalry and behaving “like a gentleman” to those weaker and less fortunate. I could never see Hugo from “Unknown Ajax” or Freddy from “Cotillion” or Gilly from “Founding” (three of my favorites), doing that to Mary..."I really agree with the idea of avoiding the imposition of modern sensibilities on period novels. To me, that's often a path to setting a reader up for frustration and disappointment.
Also agree re. Freddy & Hugo (haven't read Foundling). Hugo is another fantastic character. He really seemed to be channeling the author's own thoughts on the characters in that book.
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "(Mary shuts her eyes when she shoots him)..."I found that moment to be so human and sympathetic. Also realistic.
mark wrote: "But doesn't Vidal actually exhibit all of those behaviors, at one point or another?"Ok, so I know this is a little far-fetched, because he's a literary character and I am not a mental health specialist, so please take this with a grain of salt.
exploit, manipulate or violate the rights of others
Yes, I think at times Vidal is guilty of those things, but I think this list is not about whether someone has ever exhibited this behaviour but more about a regular way of dealing with people. I don't think this is Vidal's natural modus operandi. With the people who are closest to him he doesn't behave this way.
lack concern, regret or remorse about other people's distress
Again, while he does sometimes show this (as do we all), he is not numb to other people's feelings. I think he shows regret for a lot of his actions, and not just because of how they affect him right now (i.e. the good old "I don't regret what I did, I regret I got caught"). He is appalled by having distressed his mother, and most of the novel is concerned with his trying his best to repair the damage he had done to Mary. He seems much less sympathetic to other men.
behave irresponsibly and show disregard for normal social behaviour
Yes, I don't think anybody can deny he does do this.
have difficulty sustaining long-term relationships
Well, from Infamous Army we know that (view spoiler). Before Mary he doesn't have any long-term romantic relationships but that's very natural in those times. He does, however, have long-term, warm and affectionate friendships. So I don't think we can accuse him of this one.
be unable to control their anger
Ok. Yes. This one is very Vidal.
lack guilt, or not learn from their mistakes
Again, I think this list refers to habitual behaviours and not to one-off events. Otherwise we'd all be sociopaths. He is not unable to learn from his mistakes, and he often shows guilt (the particular scene that comes to mind is when he accidentally injures Mary during his duel with Comyn). He shows guilt when he disappoints his mother. He is not insensible to his own faults.
blame others for problems in their lives
Again, to some extend we all do this, but in sociopaths it's pathological - they are unable to ever admit that they could do anything wrong. As mentioned before, Vidal is not conceited, he is fully aware of his faults, and he shows, more than once, that he is concerned that he has hurt or distressed others (primarily women, but again, this being a novel, I'm not sure how far we can carry this analysis).
repeatedly break the law
I'm not an expert on this, but I think he would have broken the law had he killed the man in the gaming hell. He didn't, though, so technically he didn't break the law? But then I seem to remember Avon saying that this isn't the first time. I don't know if this means he had previously killed someone in a duel. If he did, then of course that would be breaking the law. But repeatedly is again not the case here.
To sum up: I really don't think sociopath describes Vidal well. Spoilt, aggressive, possibly abusive, but not sociopath. But that's my opinion, I would be interested to hear what others think!
I've never thought of Vidal as having a mental illness. "Spoilt, aggressive, (definitely) abusive - not to mention entitled.He is a product of his parents. His father (pre-Leonie) was depraved and his mother is certainly bloodthirsty. Vidal is a combination of their worst characteristics. What makes him bearable are his quick wits, a sense of humour and (sometimes) a certain charm.
Isn’t it a tribute to the creative imagination and skilled writing of Georgette Heyer that we can debate her characters as if they were real people? When we think of all the things she managed to create in her fiction canon, it does make you wonder where she got the inspiration from. For what it’s worth, I don’t see Dominic as a sociopath. He’s no Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer!
He’s a flawed human being with many regrettable personality traits but I definitely see him as capable of change - and I believe he does.
Abigail wrote: "You’re right, Emilia, the “mechanics” are rarely visible in her stories, no matter how many times I read them. Yes, a lot of the books open with expository scenes where (usually) the hero’s family ..."thank you for putting so well what I always think - Heyer was an incredible talent.
I had to google "pope in the pool" and was surprised it was a literal pope swimming!
I find this such a great sequel to These Old Shades--Heyer was so smart in making these MCs so different from Avon and Leonie. And I think she is quite clear about who and what Dominic is: the "wild, sulky, unmanageable boy" with whom Mary falls in love; Leonie's son and Avon's too, with a blend of the former's hot-headed impulsiveness and the latter's icy composure. Mad, bad, and dangerous to know! But truly more "cub" than "devil," really. I think he is very softened in the scenes we see of him with his parents (and he is clearly no match for Avon--the scene in Avon's study, prior to Dominic's departure for France, makes that clear.) Dominic needs Mary's mothering and practical influence and love to temper the more extreme aspects of his nature and impulses--Leonie clearly sees that when she tells him that marriage to someone like herself would not suit him at all. And I think that seed is planted firmly in Dominic's head. We see pretty clearly that Mary appeals to Dominic's "better angels," and he acts very differently towards her once he understands the reasons for her frankly shameless and outrageous (and ruinous) behavior (by the standards of the times). Indeed, he's determined to marry her from almost the start of their misadventure--out of a sense of honor, but I think also because he is smitten pretty quickly. I don't think Heyer makes excuses for his initial rough treatment of Mary, but she definitely evens the score by having Mary shoot him (and his utter appreciation of her for doing so amuses me every time--as he says, there's only one other woman he knows who would have pulled the trigger: his mother). Very much enjoying my reread and following the lively conversation here!
Grrrrace wrote: "Leonie's son and Avon's too, with a blend of the former's hot-headed impulsiveness and the latter's icy composure. Mad, bad, and dangerous to know! But truly more "cub" than "devil," really. .."Really well said, Grrrrace (that name was fun to type out!) - it has given me food for thought. Part of what is fascinating me now is seeing how successfully Heyer portrays Vidal as a combination of some of his parents' more dangerous traits but also many of their positive traits as well, in his bravery & resolve & loyalty to his family. It's given me ideas of what to write about in my review.
Yes, well said Grrrace - Vidal is a complex character & I don't think any other author could have pulled this off!
Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Isn’t it a tribute to the creative imagination and skilled writing of Georgette Heyer that we can debate her characters as if they were real people? When we think of all the things she managed to c..."That is so true! There is no other writer I'm so passionate about.
Off hand the only other writer I would debate the characters like this would be Jane Austen (but due to JA's smaller literary output I have never had any luck finding a really active group for her on GR)
Mod
..."
No - I'm not a psychologist either, but I've lived with a sociopath and had one for a boss. They have no conscience: when something goes wrong, they're not interested in putting it right but only in at least wriggling out of responsibility for it and preferably taking advantage of the situation for their own benefit.
It would never have occurred to a sociopath that having accidentally compromised a virtuous lady, it was his duty to marry her: he would have been more likely to take steps to make sure her reputation was utterly trashed so that she wouldn't appear to have been virtuous in the first place.
Grrrrace wrote: "I find this such a great sequel to These Old Shades--Heyer was so smart in making these MCs so different from Avon and Leonie. And I think she is quite clear about who and what Dominic is: the "wil..."Absolutely spot on and totally in tune with my own thoughts. I did really appreciate that Heyer created 2 entirely new and different characters from Justin and Leonie for this book.
(It did make me unhappy that she thought fit to reintroduce D and M in An Infamous Army because she really didn't do justice to them; and additionally, she made one of her few errors in having Babs as their grand-daughter - a physical impossibility in the timeline!!)
I don't remember a time (since I joined this group) such an intense discussion on a book. It certainly has divided people. Very interesting.
I seem to recall Venetia bringing out a variety of strong opinions, as well as Beaumaris in Arabella.
To be honest, this was the discussion I was expecting the last time we had a group discussion of this book.Vidal will always be a polarising figure.
Abigail - yes, I remember those discussions. It’s always great when we’re all really feeling strongly about our views. Makes it so much more engaging.
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Yes, well said Grrrace - Vidal is a complex character & I don't think any other author could have pulled this off!"I agree! That complexity is what makes Heyer so enduringly wonderful. Even the secondary characters are nuanced—in lesser hands, they might be simplistic stock characters. Take Comyn: so much more than just the staid foil he appears at first to be for Dominic. He may actually be the opposite of what he first appears to be! Our seemingly steady fellow is really an utter romantic at heart. Mary goes from thinking that “neither of us is of a romantic disposition” to discovering “that Mr. Comyn, for all his prosaic bearing, cherished a love for the romantic, which Lord Vidal, a very figure of romance, quite lacked.” Yes! After all, he has come to Paris, on Dominic’s advice, to elope with Juliana—outrageous behavior! His proposal to Mary is equally rash—an excess of chivalry but also made because he’s so mad at Juliana. That is not the behavior of a staid or conventional person. That is Alistair-level madness. :-D
And Heyer plays with these characterizations so skillfully! On the surface, Comyn and Mary would seem well-matched: measured, calm in a crisis, seemingly conventional (although they both lost their heads and good sense once exposed to the Alistair family and have run wild ever since :-D). In social standing, too, they’re far better matched than Dominic and Mary (her General grandfather notwithstanding).
But Heyer reveals that Comyn and Mary are really not suited at all and not much alike either. Mary is no damsel in distress to Comyn’s chivalrous hero—he is surprised and a little disapproving of her immense practicality during their elopement: “[he] could not but feel that his companion behaved with a matter-of-factness quite out of keeping with the circumstances….A natural female agitation would have given his chivalry more scope, but Miss Challoner remained maddeningly calm, and far from betraying weakness or nervous fears, assumed the direction of the journey.”
Hahah—I love that. And what initially seems an attraction of opposites— Mary and Dominic/ Juliana and Frederick—is shown to be not quite so simple. Dominic and Mary share a pragmatism that the other two lack. Dominic is as capable as Mary with dealing with details and getting things done without fuss—she notes that when she traveled with him, “all the best rooms at all the inns were prepared for her and she had nothing to do but obey my lord’s commands.” Our romantic Byronesque rake turns out to be much more prosaic and useful to have around than our supposedly calm and conventional second banana.
And Juliana and Comyn share an idealized romanticism--Juliana’s need for drama and emotionalism is a good match for Comyn’s need to play the romantic, chivalrous hero (and it’s his refusal to indulge that side of their natures, when he arrives in Paris, that has Juliana so rebellious and upset).
What a feat! Heyer turns our initial impressions and expectations upside down in so many ways. It really says something when even a secondary character like Comyn prompts so much pondering, I suppose! Forgive my ramblings!
Loved this perspective on how nuanced Comyn is as a character. And how he's actually a great match for Juliana, if he'd give in to his (barely) buried romanticism. It's great how Heyer just drops these little moments and hints along the way, foiling any expectations that Vidal+Juliana and Mary+Comyn are the better matches despite how each non-couple appears, on the surface, to have personality synergy.
Georgette Heyer Fans
Books mentioned in this topic
The Black Moth (other topics)These Old Shades (other topics)
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Daphne Clair (other topics)Daphne Clair (other topics)
But did he? When I see how Rupert has turned out I can't help thinking of The Nonesuch where Waldo regrets having come to Lawrie's rescue financially and feels guilty for having ruined his character. Avon, though meaning well, is clearly subsidising Rupert's irresponsible lifestyle and is prepared to go on doing it for the rest of his life; if Rupert had been forced to take the younger son's option and get a job in early adulthood, he might have become a better person.
It makes me wonder about Justin's parenting skills, really: he's obviously got Dominic to acknowledge and submit to his authority, but how often does he exercise it? He seems to have a very "Oh well, boys will be boys" attitude, and though he advises Dominic against dealings with Sophia, he doesn't actually forbid him, does he?