Georgette Heyer Fans discussion
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Devils Cub Nov 2020 spoilers thread.
Abigail wrote: "The past is another country . . . In support of Elliot’s point of view, there is perhaps a deeper philosophical issue here. I feel that in any act of reading there are two simultaneous books bein..."
As much as I love this book, Dominic isn't my favourite GH hero. (Mary is one of my favourite GH heroines though) I love the GH variation of a practical pair of people finding themselves in a wildly romantic plot.
I share your preferences, Carol! Mary Challoner may be my favorite GH heroine, but can’t say I have commensurate affection for Vidal.
Elizabeth wrote: "Good point. Just because it's historical doesn't mean it's OK ;-). Or does it? If someone's behaviour is acceptable by the standards of their own time (and culture - hot water here), is it acceptable to condemn them by our own standards? It's anachronistic, certainly. I think I'm getting a bit muddled here!."Heh, I think mostly it's just a subjective thing of what crosses the line for you and what doesn't. Allowances should be made for what is historically appropriate behaviour, but it doesn't mean you're obliged to like it (even if it is appropriate for the standards of the time in which the novel takes place).
For me, although I don't think I'd like Vidal if I ever met him in real life (either if I met him in his own time period or mine), I do like him as a character in the novel, because I find his arc compelling, and he's amusing.
First off, for those arguing that it's kill or be killed with regard to the highwayman, that's...uh...not how armed robbery works, as a general rule. (Not that I have a vast experience to draw on, I hasten to add). The arms are there to facilitate theft, not murder. Randomly shooting the upper classes that they're robbing really isn't the best business model for a highwayman. Not to justify armed robbery, but to toss off murdering a robber with "oh, well, it's OK because reasons, and besides - people just didn't value life then as highly as we do now" strikes me as...well...hmm. Let's just say that I'm not sure I share that opinion, myself. And in fact, in real life, Vidal would have been running a much higher risk of being shot himself than shooting someone else dead, but thanks to the magic of Authorial Prerogative, we don't have to deal with that inconvenient possibility.
Secondly, with regard to the duel - Vidal explicitly breaks the rules of those types of engagement by insisting on dueling on the spot, while drunk. Even drunk, by the rules of his own society, he's supposed to have more self-command than that.
And so, despite the charm of GH's writing - which does, after all, keep me READING about Vidal - and quite avidly, at that! - I want to believe, damn it! - I look at Vidal's behavior and say, wow, ladies, would you really be swooning over a real-life guy like this? Consider: he has a violent, controlling temper, he does not hesitate to threaten or actually use violence against women, he actually does offer savage violence to almost every male he isn't related to, he alternately acts out or sulks when he doesn't get his way...okay, if "sociopath" doesn't describe him, I'd say, "creamy and delicious blend of toxic masculinity and narcissism" does. He's an abuser, and no amount of "awww, but I *wuv* you, Mary!" in the end makes him charming to me.
Maybe if I hadn't been suffering the emotional and intellectual trauma of watching a real-life wealthy, privileged manbaby in the WH who's been coddled from birth, constantly failed upwards, and never had to face any real consequences for his abusive behavior, blow through every political and social norm my country has ever had and leave it all but wrecked in his tantrum-strewn wake - all while being cheered on by a distressingly large portion of the population - I'd be feeling less jaundiced about people making excuses for a fictional one. But it's precisely *because* so many people have made so many excuses for SO LONG for "bad boys" - with disastrous results for our society - that I find this one so excruciating on re-reading. YMMV
ETA: On the other hand - and this may be inconsistent of me, so be it - I will never, never, not love the Duke of Avon. And the Duchess. Even tho' I have to give them both black marks for their parenting skills. ; )
Next person who compares Vidal to Trump is banned!I kid, I kid. 😆
I guess I can't put my feelings better then I did in my 2015 review of this book;
My love for what I think of as Georgette Heyer's masterpiece doesn't mean I would want Vidal in my own life as either a spouse or a son. Vidal's fondness for solving his problems by either murdering or threatening to murder people who cross him wouldn't make him a very comfortable companion! & I don't see myself as the normally sensible Mary. No these characters are right where I want them - between the pages of a book.
& I realise my fondness for this book means I should hand in my Feminist Membership Card right now.
I still love Justin. & that scene at the inn with him & Vidal is one of the funniest things GH ever wrote. Only a writer of skill could ever have pulled that off. Justin reduces Vidal to an eight year old!
I honestly feel like if Vidal had been handled by almost any other author, I would feel the same as Elliot. And I agree with you Carol, wholeheartedly, that Vidal is only palatable as a fictional character. In real life, whether he is justified or not, whether his behaviour is excusable by mores of his time or not, I would not like that man one bit. But GH does allow other characters to put Vidal in his place (chiefly his father) and she does make his behaviour make sense and have consequences (unlike DT, Vidal does have to face them: he is made to leave the country when he shoots a fellow who looks like he might die; and when he kidnaps Mary in a fit of temper he then has to deal with the consequences by arranging some respectable way of marrying her).
So from a fictional story point of view, his arc is still satisfying. And of course, by juxtaposing him with frivolous buffoons (that macaroni cousin that flirts with Julianna) and with starchy but silly romantics (like Comyn), GH does help us understand his appeal.
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "that scene at the inn with him & Vidal is one of the funniest things GH ever wrote."Oh my God, one of my favourite scenes in all of literature! I have never read that scene without laughing like a crazed hyena, and I have read it multiple times. Peak Heyer!
Oh no!! Comparing Vidal to Trump really is a step too far - go for the ban Carol!! *Just Teasing!*Seriously, I understand that some folk actively dislike/disapprove of Vidal for all the reasons laid out in the posts above - but quite simply - I don't.
I love reading the story, and I think GH did an amazing job in creating these fabulous characters who can still excite, agitate, inspire such a range of emotions so many decades later.
Yes, he didn't need to shoot the highwayman when the latter held them up; no, he didn't behave well conducting a duel in the way that he did. Yes, he's arrogant, violent, and abusive.
Presumably, the whole point of Heyer's setup is to show us what Dominic is like, and why he is sent abroad - thus precipitating the planned runaway with Sophia - and make us appreciate that in the end - he changes, because he loves Mary.
I don't excuse bad boys. Dominic is redeemed and he changes. He is not rewarded for being a bad boy. He is rewarded for changing himself.
I never, ever, get bored reading Devil's Cub - it's a thoroughly entertaining read and I adore Dominic and Mary (and all the others) for the amazing fictional characters that they are.
Excellent analysis, Emilia! You’ve reconciled me to my own guilty love of this story.
I don't 'get' the attraction of Vidal - why on earth would anyone fall in love with a sulky boy, as Mary refers to him?However, I think one of his redeeming features is that he has a sense of humour and a degree of self-awareness when he's not having a tantrum. He would be an entertaining friend, and probably a loyal and forgiving friend. There would be times he would be exasperating, of course, but tolerable.
Ah wrote: "I don't 'get' the attraction of Vidal - why on earth would anyone fall in love with a sulky boy, as Mary refers to him?"Well... I don't get it either, in a personal sense, since he's not my type of man, but I think what Mary's seeing is that, when his worst impulses are under control, he's very attractive (physically), witty, physically strong, graceful and capable, protective, he loves his mother and is fiercely loyal to those he does love. He is quite intelligent and perceptive, too. These are good and attractive qualities, but of course with any other woman than Mary, I think he'd be a hellish husband. But Mary will keep him in check, and I think they'd be reasonably happy together, because there is no pretence and no masking each other's faults. She's seen him at his absolute worst, and she could handle him.
Emilia wrote: "Ah wrote: "I don't 'get' the attraction of Vidal - why on earth would anyone fall in love with a sulky boy, as Mary refers to him?"Well... I don't get it either, in a personal sense, since he's n..."
Great analysis Emilia!! it's all about personal taste I think.
I think this discussion (in whatever arena I have encountered it) centres on the different ways in which we all develop preferences, including what attracts any of us to another person.
I am sure I am not alone in meeting someone's partner and thinking 'what on earth do they see in him/her?' We are of course all different - and again, what we like in fiction is not necessarily what we want in real life.
I know that in the Heyer world - another character who polarises opinion is Freddy in Cotillion. Some would desperately love him as a husband whilst others think he'd be an amazing, platonic best friend.
I still have a soft spot for Dominic and Justin.
Jackie wrote: "I like Rupert and I think maybe he is my favorite, too. Having just seen him as a young man in TOS, I enjoy his boyishness in middle age. But I think he should get married too! Imagine a sequel whe..."I love Rupert, but I think he would be a nightmare husband & I'm glad that he recognised he should stay single. I'm pretty sure all the 'matchmaking mamas' of Georgian London came to the same conclusion!
Avon is such a memorable character, no doubt he would not care one iota whether or not he was liked, but I like reading about him.Vidal has many nasty traits, though does redeem himself somewhat. He might be amusing for a short while, but all together far too high maintenance for my personal tastes.
The real gems of these two stories, for me, are Leonie and Mary. Both are very strong, attractive, strong-minded women - and completely different from each other! Thank you, GH, for creating two distinctive, lovable female characters.
It raises an interesting question: do we read Regency romance to swoon over the hero or to identify with the heroine? Maybe my favorite is The Unknown Ajax because I get to do both.
Abigail wrote: "It raises an interesting question: do we read Regency romance to swoon over the hero or to identify with the heroine? Maybe my favorite is The Unknown Ajax because I get to do both."That is an interesting question - I think for me it is almost always about the heroines, but I never realized it until you said that! I like most of Heyer's heroines a lot, there are a few I am not fond of, but I am recognizing now that the ones I like the most have (imo) the best heroines.
Abigail wrote: "It raises an interesting question: do we read Regency romance to swoon over the hero or to identify with the heroine? Maybe my favorite is The Unknown Ajax because I get to do both."Great question! I think, for me, it's whether the couple works for me - whether their chemistry sings, whether I can see them living happy lives together. I don't need to fancy the hero myself to find the romance swoon-worthy. E.g. Pride and Prejudice is my all time favourite romantic story, and I think Mr Darcy is very swoony but I wouldn't want the man for myself. I just think the chemistry between him and Lizzy is second to none.
That being said, if the hero does appeal to me personally, that's also really nice. I'll second Abigails Unknown Ajax for that particular distinction :)
I don't see why a strong, intelligent woman such as Mary would be attracted to him! It is presented as her always having been attracted to him, even before she got to know him, and that is the difficulty for me. It seems far more likely she would have wanted to give him a slap and tell him to grow up... then fall for him.once they are thrown together.
I mean, Freddy is NOT my fantasy man, but I love watching that romance happen. And 'love at first sight' works for me when the people involved are obviously decent people at heart, despite their failings. But love at first sight with someone who is acting as selfishly as Vidal, when you are as intelligent and grounded as Mary... just doesn't work for me.I can't identify with her because that just doesn't mesh with the way she is portrayed in the other aspects of her life.
Ah wrote: "And 'love at first sight' works for me when the people involved are obviously decent people at heart, despite their failings. But love at first sight with someone who is acting as selfishly as Vidal, when you are as intelligent and grounded as Mary... just doesn't work for me."Oh dear, I really dislike love at first sight in literature (and I don't personally believe it happens in real life, but that's just my experience). But I honestly don't think that's what happens in Devil's Cub! I think Mary is attracted to Vidal, but she doesn't love him and nothing is further from her mind than trying to be with him. And she does strongly disapprove of his behaviour and wants her family to have nothing to do with him. She falls in love with him during the time they spend together. At least that's how I read the story, but I'd be interested to see what other people think!
Ah wrote: "I don't see why a strong, intelligent woman such as Mary would be attracted to him! "They say opposites attract, and I think some of that might be at play here. Controlled, sensible, virtuous Mary Challoner is very much the opposite of the abandoned, sensuous and licentious Marquis of Vidal. I can see why she is attracted to him even despite herself, and even while she disapproves of him.
In respect of Mary and Dominic, I agree with you Emilia. She is very attracted and I suspect she sees rather more than the obvious surface persona that Dominic presents. However, she actually falls in love with him as the story progresses. As for love at first sight, that’s where I must disagree. I fell in love with my husband 44 years ago and this December we’ll celebrate out 41st wedding anniversary.
I guess some folk might say we ‘fell in lust’ rather than love, but I know I have loved him ever since and thankfully, I also like and respect him. He’s my best friend.
So I do believe that love at first sight is possible. Interestingly, that had never happened with anyone else before I met him.
When it comes to Mary’s attraction to Vidal, we should perhaps factor in the life she has led. She was not presented to the ton and her social circle has been very limited, featuring her cousins who are beneath her level of gentility. Vidal must have appeared like a bright star in a dull sky—someone her intellectual equal and having a manner she was raised to appreciate. To change my metaphor, water for a person dying of thirst!
I would agree that Mary is (strongly!) attracted to Vidal while he is busy attempting to seduce her sister, but then falls in love after they are together. Now that I'm nearly 60, I think back to how strong those feelings are for a woman Mary's age. Especially, as Abigail points out, when her social life has been so limited. Vidal presents a pretty big contrast to the cousin who wants to marry her!
Jackie wrote: "I would agree that Mary is (strongly!) attracted to Vidal while he is busy attempting to seduce her sister, but then falls in love after they are together. Now that I'm nearly 60, I think back to..."
Yes, I think so too. I also think Mary would never acted on her attraction & Vidal would never have realised she was the perfect woman for him if they hadn't been thrown together the way they were.
Carol - I agree. The circumstances, the timing, the geography - all came together!
Well I finished and there is one thing I'm certain of, I don't and never will like Vidal! I've read all the comments here. I see there is for and against him. I'm most definitely against!!He's a bad tempered bully who throws his toys out of the pram every single time he doesn't get his own way.
Even towards the end, when he claims he loves Mary and he thinks she's married to Comyn, he's prepared to make her a widow immediately. If Mary had married Comyn for love, it would have made her so unhappy but what did he care for her happiness when his was taken away. That's not love!! He's a child but it's his cruelty and total lack of empathy that rile me.
For me this is Mary's story (I find most of Heyer's books are either one or the other - when it is the couple, those are my 5-star reads). She was attracted to him when he is pursuing Sophie, but she falls for him when he hands her the bowl to barf in. How many men would do that instead of fleeing?
Sorry Carolm that doesn't redeem him in my eyes and if that's what made her love him, I'd be very disappointed in her. I think it's because I like Mary so much, I can't bear the thought of her spending her life with that selfish, self absorbed twat!
Teresa wrote: "Sorry Carolm that doesn't redeem him in my eyes and if that's what made her love him, I'd be very disappointed in her. I think it's because I like Mary so much, I can't bear the thought of her spen..."But think of poor Mary spending the rest of her life with selfish, self absorbed mother - & possibly Sophia too!
At least she could stand up to them!! She spent half of the book terrified about 'what would Vidal do' if he caught up with them. Imagine living like that. Wondering every moment what he will say or do next. Sorry!! Probably a bit biased on this one. A bit close to the bone for me.
{{{Teresa}}}I definitely wouldn't want a real life Vidal! I've always said he belongs in the pages of a book.
But I do think Mary will be the boss.
I sure hope so. And yes the pages of a book are the only place for someone like him.So looking forward to The Talisman Ring. I can wash my brain out with that one :):)
Well Teresa, I think we’ve clearly got the message that you don’t like Dominic. 😮. I don’t agree at all with your descriptions or your conclusions but never mind, we’re all different and it would be boring if we all loved the same books and characters.
Devil’s Cub is still a book I will read again and again, and Dominic and Mary will still be one of my favourite couples. As we know from a later book, they have a very happy marriage, so I am content that it all works out well for them.
No problem Susan. I don't agree with a lot of what you said either. But each to their own and it would be a very boring discussion if we all agreed on everything :):)
I've always liked Vidal, he doesn't need to right for me, just right for Mary.
Yes & this feels like the right moment for me to include a quote from my favourite Mills & Boon author, Daphne ClairI didn't add the quote, but I have heard Daphne speak where she made similar remarks.On romance books: We might assume then that men, major consumers of thrillers, westerns, and detective fiction, enjoy being beaten up, tortured, shot, stabbed, dragged by galloping horses, and thrown out of moving vehicles.
Teresa wrote: "Sorry Carolm that doesn't redeem him in my eyes and if that's what made her love him, I'd be very disappointed in her. I think it's because I like Mary so much, I can't bear the thought of her spen..."I didn't mean to try to redeem him, I know I can't. I was just meaning to point out why it works for me. Besides, I find the scene where she shoots him one of the most hilarious in Heyer's books. But if you can't stand Vidal, you wouldn't find that funny, either.
I applauded her for doing it :):) She certainly has gumption that gal!!!
Being in a relationship with Mary, patient, honest and caring, who knew all of your faults, and loved you regardless, and put up with your crankiness while steering you to be a better person
and wanted the best for you - now that is a win!
I'd take Mary over Vidal any day :D
Ah wrote: "I don't 'get' the attraction of VidalNor I, but he still makes me swoon. As do Mr Rochester, the Giaour, and Daddy Longlegs. I condemn their morals, and yet! Possibly it has to do with first reading about them when I was a silly teenager, preparing for my high-school finals (or a no less silly university student, preparing for my first exams). It's the Byronic hero syndrome.
It has worried me, and I'm grateful to you all for pointing out the difference between fiction and real life now and again!
Elizabeth wrote: "Ah wrote: "I don't 'get' the attraction of VidalNor I, but he still makes me swoon. As do Mr Rochester, the Giaour, and Daddy Longlegs. I condemn their morals, and yet! Possibly it has to do with..."
I share your taste in swoon-worthy heroes in my fiction Elizabeth! They aren’t the kind of men I’d necessarily pick in real life but they have certainly enhanced my reading pleasure over the decades since I first encountered Dominic when I was 11.
It’s presumably no coincidence that writers have always created dark, dubious and decadent heroes who fascinate readers, even though they are hardly great examples of fine, upstanding men. I know from other groups that not everyone enjoys this kind of hero but, for my sins, I always have!
Susan in Perthshire wrote: "For my sins..."For our sins, Susan, that must be the key!
Susan, I also first read this book when I was about eleven years old and I know my hormones were raging - I've loved the book ever since. Elizabeth, who is Daddy Longlegs?
I must admit I am a little in love with Vidal. These rakes are fabulous to lust over, and great when we want to bury ourselves in a happy fantasy world. This is why many of us read these novels. Real life is not nearly as excitingIn reality, we would probably not want to marry a rake - however I would like to believe that Vidal and Mary with live HEA - Mary's practicality and his love for her will mean that his impetuous behaviour will be modified....that is my fantasy anyway.
I dated many rakes when I was young...always had a soft spot for them..so perhaps that is why I can see Mary's attraction. Lucky for me, I married a lovely, non-rake and have been happily so for the last 20+ years.
I think one of the problems with it is I see no real change in Vidal. Ay change in behaviour is because he wants Mary and can't get her on any other terms, NOT because he is less self centred!Whereas with Avon I do think that he genuinely becomes more caring of others over the course of the book. Mind you, it seems that he did take good care of his younger siblings, without being very 'warm' to them, so perhaps the core of responsibility was always there.
But yes, if we all agreed it would be a dull life...
Ah, rakes!At first, rakes are exciting and fun,
but don't fool yourself into thinking they're the 'one,'
all that drama and fire,
makes one start to tire,
Cinnamon Rolls are more pleasant in the long run!
Mod
So did Dominic, which I think tells us a lot about him. He recognises that she was right to do it, and admires her for it: he can see her point of view. The man he has seemed to be up to now would have yelled "You effing bitch!", beaten her up and raped her anyway - but in fact, that's not what he's like.
Georgette Heyer Fans
Books mentioned in this topic
The Black Moth (other topics)These Old Shades (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Daphne Clair (other topics)Daphne Clair (other topics)
In support of Elliot’s point of view, there is perhaps a deeper philosophical issue here. I feel that in any act of reading there are two simultaneous books being read, the one written by the author, with its own time and place and set of assumptions, and the book experienced by the reader, which incorporates that person’s own time and place and set of assumptions. Both are equally real. It’s what makes a book both a universal experience (at least in the universe of people who read the book) and a completely personal one. It’s difficult to imagine a book so classic that it would not be subject to the reinterpretations of different eras and mores.