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James Madison
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WE ARE OPEN - 11/16/20 - PRESIDENTIAL SERIES - DISCUSSION - James Madison: A Biography by Ralph Ketchum
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At 50 Vincent wrote: " the whole concept of land in America was, in my view, the availability to the settlers from Europe where all the land had been "spoken for" for centuries was the game changer for everyone - it is part of the reason for the success of America..."
I love your phrasing... "spoken for." In Europe, the land was "spoken for.' The religion was, too. The governing, also, really. The larger degree of self-determination in the colonies... How did it shape the American psyche?
I've never been to Europe, so maybe children say the same things there, but I have often heard young children stating firmly, "You're not the boss of me."
I love your phrasing... "spoken for." In Europe, the land was "spoken for.' The religion was, too. The governing, also, really. The larger degree of self-determination in the colonies... How did it shape the American psyche?
I've never been to Europe, so maybe children say the same things there, but I have often heard young children stating firmly, "You're not the boss of me."
Chapter Three: The College of New Jersey at Princeton
Bits I really, really liked from the last part of the chapter:
"Witherspoon drove home again and again that the purpose of government was to encourage and nourish not life alone, but the good life, the life of virtue" (43).
"...principles of justice and virtue can be identified and made the foundation of government, and therefore have a higher sanction than the will of the majority" (43).
"There were, therefore [Christian orientation], limits to the claim the state could make upon the individual" (47).
Bits I really, really liked from the last part of the chapter:
"Witherspoon drove home again and again that the purpose of government was to encourage and nourish not life alone, but the good life, the life of virtue" (43).
"...principles of justice and virtue can be identified and made the foundation of government, and therefore have a higher sanction than the will of the majority" (43).
"There were, therefore [Christian orientation], limits to the claim the state could make upon the individual" (47).
Chapter Four: The Search for a Vocation
As he wasn't a divinity student, I was quite surprised he studied Hebrew.
Impressed/motivated by how often people back then wrote actual letters to one another. I think it was probably beneficial. It forced them to figure out what they actually thought thoroughly enough to explain it to others.
Madison's growing interest in religious liberty for all. "...rights of Conscience, which is one of the Characteristics of a free people"(58).
Madison's interest in "the thinking people among us" ( 61).
Page 63, last paragraph: Madison comes across to me as TOO zealous, too aggressively against thinking that doesn't align with his own. Wanting to require the people to sign embargo statements "to distinguish friends from foes"... "wish[ed] to ... tar and feather"...some New York phamphleteers... seizing what may have been personal property because it was "execrable"... etc. Edit added: Am I using 21st century values to judge the 18th century?+ EDIT added: Maybe because I think of Madison as a Founding Father rather than as a Revolutionary?
Lexington and Concord.
..."he had become a man consumed by a cause. He had henceforth his vocation: he was a nation builder" (67).
As he wasn't a divinity student, I was quite surprised he studied Hebrew.
Impressed/motivated by how often people back then wrote actual letters to one another. I think it was probably beneficial. It forced them to figure out what they actually thought thoroughly enough to explain it to others.
Madison's growing interest in religious liberty for all. "...rights of Conscience, which is one of the Characteristics of a free people"(58).
Madison's interest in "the thinking people among us" ( 61).
Page 63, last paragraph: Madison comes across to me as TOO zealous, too aggressively against thinking that doesn't align with his own. Wanting to require the people to sign embargo statements "to distinguish friends from foes"... "wish[ed] to ... tar and feather"...some New York phamphleteers... seizing what may have been personal property because it was "execrable"... etc. Edit added: Am I using 21st century values to judge the 18th century?+ EDIT added: Maybe because I think of Madison as a Founding Father rather than as a Revolutionary?
Lexington and Concord.
..."he had become a man consumed by a cause. He had henceforth his vocation: he was a nation builder" (67).
Mod
Week Three: November 30th - December 6th (pages 51 - 88)
IV The Search for a Vocation 51
V Virginia Revolutionist 68
Chapter Five: Virginia Revolutionist
"Madison accepted habits and traditions..." (70). This kept pulling me back. "Accepted" seems too passive to me. I think of habits being "formed" over time.
"“Watch your thoughts, they become your words; watch your words, they become your actions; watch your actions, they become your habits; watch your habits, they become your character; watch your character, it becomes your destiny.” ---Lao Tzu
That having been said, I've been so very impressed with Madison's habits, his determination.
Lao Tzu
"Madison accepted habits and traditions..." (70). This kept pulling me back. "Accepted" seems too passive to me. I think of habits being "formed" over time.
"“Watch your thoughts, they become your words; watch your words, they become your actions; watch your actions, they become your habits; watch your habits, they become your character; watch your character, it becomes your destiny.” ---Lao Tzu
That having been said, I've been so very impressed with Madison's habits, his determination.
Lao Tzu
Mod
Chapter Five: Virginia Revolutionist
On page 119, there is a longish quote from Gouverneur Morris basically stating the attributes the United States needed to be "a considerable Empire...can only be acquired by a Continuance of the War..."
Ketcham then writes of Madison that he "sought in 1783, as he did throughout his public career, to find peace, prosperity, and freedom the same sense of purpose and resolve evident during the Revolutionary War"(120).
Since Madison hadn't fought physically during the war, but rather intellectually in trying to devise and lawfully implement a functioning government for a Republic, his purpose post-war was much like his years during the war. THAT was his "war" ... which continued.
Chris Hedges wrote what I thought an excellent book on the subject: "Even with its destruction and carnage it can give us what we long for in life. It can give us purpose, meaning, a reason for living...It gives us resolve" (War Is a Force that Gives Us Meaning, p5)
by
Chris Hedges
On page 119, there is a longish quote from Gouverneur Morris basically stating the attributes the United States needed to be "a considerable Empire...can only be acquired by a Continuance of the War..."
Ketcham then writes of Madison that he "sought in 1783, as he did throughout his public career, to find peace, prosperity, and freedom the same sense of purpose and resolve evident during the Revolutionary War"(120).
Since Madison hadn't fought physically during the war, but rather intellectually in trying to devise and lawfully implement a functioning government for a Republic, his purpose post-war was much like his years during the war. THAT was his "war" ... which continued.
Chris Hedges wrote what I thought an excellent book on the subject: "Even with its destruction and carnage it can give us what we long for in life. It can give us purpose, meaning, a reason for living...It gives us resolve" (War Is a Force that Gives Us Meaning, p5)
by
Chris Hedges
Maybe his sense of purpose---that he was needed---helped him live to an old age in spite of his poor health.
Chapter Five: Virginia Revolutionist
What a difficult time in which to have to make huge decisions...and great difficulties in determining what was true and factual and what was not:
"Newspapers carried exaggerated accounts of the tens of thousands of Hessians and other mercenaries" (74).
"Madison had a good taste early in his career of the distraction of chaotic events and wild rumors..." (74).
"Now in no time at all
[...]Rumor goes--
Nimble as quicksilver among evils. Rumor
Thrives on motion, stronger for the running,
Lowly at first through fear, then rearing high,
She treads the land and hides her head in cloud...
...harping on lies
And slander evenhanded with truth" (The Aeneid, 4.239)
by
VirgilRobert Fitzgerald translation
What a difficult time in which to have to make huge decisions...and great difficulties in determining what was true and factual and what was not:
"Newspapers carried exaggerated accounts of the tens of thousands of Hessians and other mercenaries" (74).
"Madison had a good taste early in his career of the distraction of chaotic events and wild rumors..." (74).
"Now in no time at all
[...]Rumor goes--
Nimble as quicksilver among evils. Rumor
Thrives on motion, stronger for the running,
Lowly at first through fear, then rearing high,
She treads the land and hides her head in cloud...
...harping on lies
And slander evenhanded with truth" (The Aeneid, 4.239)
by
VirgilRobert Fitzgerald translation
Chapter Five: Virginia Revolutionist
Thank you Founding Fathers...and yet...as human as today...
"Unwilling to concede the victory of ... antirepublican forces, Madison's backers petitioned the legislature to annul the election. ... {Madison's opponent], the petitioners alleged, 'made use of bribery and corruption.' ... [The charges were dismissed.] ... one suspects the Assembly could ill-afford to unseat a member for doing what most of the House had probably done to secure their own elections" (77).
Mmmm.
Thank you Founding Fathers...and yet...as human as today...
"Unwilling to concede the victory of ... antirepublican forces, Madison's backers petitioned the legislature to annul the election. ... {Madison's opponent], the petitioners alleged, 'made use of bribery and corruption.' ... [The charges were dismissed.] ... one suspects the Assembly could ill-afford to unseat a member for doing what most of the House had probably done to secure their own elections" (77).
Mmmm.
Chapter Five: Virginia Revolutionist
Even Revolutions have to be paid for.
"Madison ...stud[ied] the vexing problem of how to pay for the Revolutionary War..... As early as January 1778, a shortage of money had made necessary clumsy taxes in kind.... Continental and state paper currencies depreciated rapidly, falling in some cases to less than 1 per cent of their face value" (85).
Even Revolutions have to be paid for.
"Madison ...stud[ied] the vexing problem of how to pay for the Revolutionary War..... As early as January 1778, a shortage of money had made necessary clumsy taxes in kind.... Continental and state paper currencies depreciated rapidly, falling in some cases to less than 1 per cent of their face value" (85).
Bentley wrote: "Love that quote and so true."me too.. Thanks
Adelle wrote: "Chapter Five: Virginia RevolutionistWhat a difficult time in which to have to make huge decisions...and great difficulties in determining what was true and factual and what was not:
"Newspapers ..."
Adelle - the lady of the classic quotes it seems
So it is interesting to me that he was so disciplined towards his studies. And, I think thankfully for our country and maybe mankind, that we were very lucky that he was disciplined and intelligent but I note also that he was born to sufficient wealth and a supportive father that he got his education, time to nature his thoughts and contacts to smoothly begin in politics. The names so easily passed by in the book, in Madison's life so far, most of which I don't know but I did notice Rittenhouse (pg 82) the astronomer and maybe with my past orientations this is the only one I knew but there was no explanation of who he was - Does Ketchum think that I know who all these men were? So last note is that at the end of the Virginia Revolutionist chapter with his writing on Money - does he not seem to have a more Hamiltonian than Jeffersonian fiscal outlook?
Vincent wrote: "So it is interesting to me that he was so disciplined towards his studies. And, I think thankfully for our country and maybe mankind, that we were very lucky that he was disciplined and intelligent..."
Right there with you, Vincent! Those are my two biggest take-aways regarding Madison.
Right there with you, Vincent! Those are my two biggest take-aways regarding Madison.
Chapter Six: In the Continental Congress
1780. In which Madison travels to Philadelphia to take his place there representing Virginia. He writes "despairingly to Jefferson of the state of the revolution"..."the public treasury empty" (89). In the field, Britain in spring and summer "won victory after victory".... the American quartermaster "enmeshed in disputes over profiteering" (91)...Benedict Arnold's treason...
"The need for French aid dominated all assessments of American prospects for winning the war (92).
Madison writes in support of the American claim to the Mississippi. His sense that it was "a natural right," "the mission of America" (97). Policy is complicated by the strong influence of land companies... "a crucial impact on the ratification of the Articles of Confederation" (99).
Madison learns "that votes in Congress turned less on careful arguments than on a bewildering variety of special interests" (103).
1782-83, winter... Madison's short-lived engagement to sixteen-year-old Kitty Floyd.
1783, July. "Congress had been forced by mutinous soldiers to flee from Philadelphia to Princeton (110).
Bentley, Vincent, am I out of line in writing an overview of the chapter? If yes, simply let me know.
1780. In which Madison travels to Philadelphia to take his place there representing Virginia. He writes "despairingly to Jefferson of the state of the revolution"..."the public treasury empty" (89). In the field, Britain in spring and summer "won victory after victory".... the American quartermaster "enmeshed in disputes over profiteering" (91)...Benedict Arnold's treason...
"The need for French aid dominated all assessments of American prospects for winning the war (92).
Madison writes in support of the American claim to the Mississippi. His sense that it was "a natural right," "the mission of America" (97). Policy is complicated by the strong influence of land companies... "a crucial impact on the ratification of the Articles of Confederation" (99).
Madison learns "that votes in Congress turned less on careful arguments than on a bewildering variety of special interests" (103).
1782-83, winter... Madison's short-lived engagement to sixteen-year-old Kitty Floyd.
1783, July. "Congress had been forced by mutinous soldiers to flee from Philadelphia to Princeton (110).
Bentley, Vincent, am I out of line in writing an overview of the chapter? If yes, simply let me know.
Vincent, an aside, I learned today that Hamilton founded The New York Post.
Chapter Seven: Emergence as a National Leader
I found this to be a fascinating chapter! I thought it delved deeper into the nitty-gritty details of governing at this time than Feldman’s book had--- or dove into them differently.
Madison turns his attention to “the questions of the structure of government, of finance, and of foreign relations.” And he was confronted with problems and problems and problems. Madison, recognizing that the Articles of Confederation weren’t succeeding, moved more and more towards expanding federal power (112).
Structure: “By February 1781 the chaos, especially in the handling of finances and war supplies” forced Congress to reorganize, to create departments with administrative officers. (116).
Finance: Devaluation of money which was eventually “not worth a Continental.” Robert Morris was finding sources of money for the country---but “friends of France” were involved…and Morris was accruing enormous profits to himself. Madison reasoned that “ultimately Congress needed the authority to lay and collect taxes.”
Foreign relations: Madison recognized that France would be willing to sacrifice American interests…but he realized, too, there were no other real options than a temporary “dependence” on France.
I found the paragraph on page 134 interesting…especially in light of current events today. The smaller states of Vermont and Rhode Island having been added as states “mostly to add another New England vote in Congress.”
Continuing chaos and hardships in 1778, 1779, 1780, and 1786.
Nice details on how, although Madison worked towards national power, he also worked with Randolph and Jefferson to protect Virginia’s interests.
Congress appointed Madison to write up a list of books that he thought should be in a Library of Congress.
Returning to the money crisis… terrible inflation…and “in June1783 some soldiers, tired of waiting for back pay, actually drove the Continental Congress from Philadelphia” (142). Mmmm.
I found this to be a fascinating chapter! I thought it delved deeper into the nitty-gritty details of governing at this time than Feldman’s book had--- or dove into them differently.
Madison turns his attention to “the questions of the structure of government, of finance, and of foreign relations.” And he was confronted with problems and problems and problems. Madison, recognizing that the Articles of Confederation weren’t succeeding, moved more and more towards expanding federal power (112).
Structure: “By February 1781 the chaos, especially in the handling of finances and war supplies” forced Congress to reorganize, to create departments with administrative officers. (116).
Finance: Devaluation of money which was eventually “not worth a Continental.” Robert Morris was finding sources of money for the country---but “friends of France” were involved…and Morris was accruing enormous profits to himself. Madison reasoned that “ultimately Congress needed the authority to lay and collect taxes.”
Foreign relations: Madison recognized that France would be willing to sacrifice American interests…but he realized, too, there were no other real options than a temporary “dependence” on France.
I found the paragraph on page 134 interesting…especially in light of current events today. The smaller states of Vermont and Rhode Island having been added as states “mostly to add another New England vote in Congress.”
Continuing chaos and hardships in 1778, 1779, 1780, and 1786.
Nice details on how, although Madison worked towards national power, he also worked with Randolph and Jefferson to protect Virginia’s interests.
Congress appointed Madison to write up a list of books that he thought should be in a Library of Congress.
Returning to the money crisis… terrible inflation…and “in June1783 some soldiers, tired of waiting for back pay, actually drove the Continental Congress from Philadelphia” (142). Mmmm.
Chapter Eight: Virginia Legislator and Traveler [a]
How to make a living??? Madison’s family would have supported him to allow him to remain in politics. Madison considered and rejected a legal career. He considered land speculation, but found it difficult to obtain loans with which to buy.
Madison struggles with issue of slavery—thinking, (hoping?), that it would gradually disappear. He sells his slave Billey into indentured servitude in Philadelphia rather than as a slave somewhere in the South, writing his father, why should Billey be punished “merely for coveting that liberty for which we have paid the price of so much blood, and have proclaimed so often to be right, and worthy of pursuit, of every human being?” (148). Madison spoke up for a bill of Jefferson’s in 1785 which would have gradually abolished slavery.
While living at his father’s home, he continued his self-directed studies, read, and maintained his political connections and considered the issues of the day thru correspondence with Jefferson, Monroe, and others. Jefferson had written regarding the poverty and overpopulation he had witnessed in France.
Indeed. “The century between 1770 and 1870 witnessed a spectacular increase in Europe’s population. Since early in the eighteenth century, population figures had been increasing by leaps and bounds…. Population pressure challenged the traditional economy, and the ingenuity of monarchs and statesmen…” (Critical Issues in History, 520)
No wonder land speculation was making big profits for those who could afford to invest. It wasn’t simply a natural increase driving demand, but thousands pouring in from Europe as well for a variety of reasons.
I hadn't actually given much though to the rate of immigration at this time. I hadn't been aware that there was so much immigration in the 1700s.
The book Critical Issues in History 1648 to the present was not found. An old book from a college course.
How to make a living??? Madison’s family would have supported him to allow him to remain in politics. Madison considered and rejected a legal career. He considered land speculation, but found it difficult to obtain loans with which to buy.
Madison struggles with issue of slavery—thinking, (hoping?), that it would gradually disappear. He sells his slave Billey into indentured servitude in Philadelphia rather than as a slave somewhere in the South, writing his father, why should Billey be punished “merely for coveting that liberty for which we have paid the price of so much blood, and have proclaimed so often to be right, and worthy of pursuit, of every human being?” (148). Madison spoke up for a bill of Jefferson’s in 1785 which would have gradually abolished slavery.
While living at his father’s home, he continued his self-directed studies, read, and maintained his political connections and considered the issues of the day thru correspondence with Jefferson, Monroe, and others. Jefferson had written regarding the poverty and overpopulation he had witnessed in France.
Indeed. “The century between 1770 and 1870 witnessed a spectacular increase in Europe’s population. Since early in the eighteenth century, population figures had been increasing by leaps and bounds…. Population pressure challenged the traditional economy, and the ingenuity of monarchs and statesmen…” (Critical Issues in History, 520)
No wonder land speculation was making big profits for those who could afford to invest. It wasn’t simply a natural increase driving demand, but thousands pouring in from Europe as well for a variety of reasons.
I hadn't actually given much though to the rate of immigration at this time. I hadn't been aware that there was so much immigration in the 1700s.
The book Critical Issues in History 1648 to the present was not found. An old book from a college course.
Chapter Eight: Virginia Legislator and Traveler [b]
At 152, we read of Jefferson proclaiming “his famous doctrine that ‘the earth belongs always to the living generation.’”
Madison responds with practical considerations: funding projects benefit future generations; the negative results that would accrue from laws not being in place until they are actually repealed; the very real need in society for “order and stability.”
From 1784 to 1787, Madison undertook several long journeys through the country, one with a French legation which had included Lafayette. Richmond was at the time had a population of about 300!
The state legislature there struggled with the perennial issue of money…current taxes being “much short” of what was needed.
Court questions came to the surface, too, and proposed changes were defeated.
“Madison observed ruefully that ‘the greatest danger is to be feared from those who mask a secret aversion to any reform under a zeal for such a one as they know will be rejected’” (161).
But in pushing for religious freedoms, Madison won “overwhelming victories,” holding that religion should not be imposed from above, though “he believed that attitudes and habits nourished by the churches could and did help importantly to improve republican government” (167).
Lastly, Madison, during this period, gave much thought to the issues of trade, both international and interstate.
At 152, we read of Jefferson proclaiming “his famous doctrine that ‘the earth belongs always to the living generation.’”
Madison responds with practical considerations: funding projects benefit future generations; the negative results that would accrue from laws not being in place until they are actually repealed; the very real need in society for “order and stability.”
From 1784 to 1787, Madison undertook several long journeys through the country, one with a French legation which had included Lafayette. Richmond was at the time had a population of about 300!
The state legislature there struggled with the perennial issue of money…current taxes being “much short” of what was needed.
Court questions came to the surface, too, and proposed changes were defeated.
“Madison observed ruefully that ‘the greatest danger is to be feared from those who mask a secret aversion to any reform under a zeal for such a one as they know will be rejected’” (161).
But in pushing for religious freedoms, Madison won “overwhelming victories,” holding that religion should not be imposed from above, though “he believed that attitudes and habits nourished by the churches could and did help importantly to improve republican government” (167).
Lastly, Madison, during this period, gave much thought to the issues of trade, both international and interstate.
Adelle wrote: "At 50 Vincent wrote: " the whole concept of land in America was, in my view, the availability to the settlers from Europe where all the land had been "spoken for" for centuries was the game changer..."Yes Adelle but the European children could not just walk west and be their own boss
Adelle wrote: "Chapter Seven: Emergence as a National LeaderI found this to be a fascinating chapter! I thought it delved deeper into the nitty-gritty details of governing at this time than Feldman’s book had--..."
Sadly I did not finish the Feldman book yet - got too busy - will go back to it - I have owned the Ketchum book longer and was hopeful I would be able to keep with with the schedule but I find it slow reading and am now a week behind in reading. - (I didn't plan for participation in efforts for the Georgia runoff election). - sorry if I am letting folks down
So just a small comment on chapter 7 - Emergence as a National Leader. - page 133 - presents the "age difference" those born before or after 1740 - and that those born before - the so called Lee-Adams faction and those born after - including both Jefferson and Madison. Of course the older men had been "real adults" before the revolution - Jefferson was only 33 at the time of the Declaration of Independence - others had been identifying as Virginians or Massachusetts men for so much longer - many of them 20 years older than Jefferson etc - so to abandon their primary loyalty to their state was breaking an older habit/loyalty - and of course the pre Revolutionary War resistances were so often by a state or colony if you wish. Reminds me of some dealings I had in France in the early 1980s when I was around 40 and most of my Frecnch colleagues were about the same - their almost adult children often said they were "European" whereas the older generation was still thinking of themselves as "French" - fortunately our new identity seems to have been stronger than the "European" identities - but we will see - I will watch with interest -(one of those French children, now 50ish is now a "French". - sorry - just a personal observation - the adults, my ex-colleagues, are still French.Anyway Madison seems to have earned recognition by using his intellect and talents and industry (staying at the Congress for four years!!) to serve the country. So far I am thinking that fiscally he is seeming closer to Hamilton than Jefferson. - did I say that before?
At 72, Vincent wrote Yes Adelle but the European children could not just walk west and be their own boss."
Hello, Vincent! Hello! :-) Well...yeah... they couldn't walk over. yeah... they couldn't totally be there own boss.
But don't you think that aspirationally (real word??) many of them came to the New World with that mindset? Maybe for religious reasons? Maybe for material freedom from some aristo back in Europe? I think of Dan'l Boone.
And yeah, maybe not easy. If one didn't have the money one might have to sell one's self into indentured servitude. If a farmer, there be a whole lot of trees to fell. And possibly people already there trying to hold onto the land. So, not easy. But worth the effort they thought. No?
And I think of the pushback against Britain and the India Tea Company.
Hello, Vincent! Hello! :-) Well...yeah... they couldn't walk over. yeah... they couldn't totally be there own boss.
But don't you think that aspirationally (real word??) many of them came to the New World with that mindset? Maybe for religious reasons? Maybe for material freedom from some aristo back in Europe? I think of Dan'l Boone.
And yeah, maybe not easy. If one didn't have the money one might have to sell one's self into indentured servitude. If a farmer, there be a whole lot of trees to fell. And possibly people already there trying to hold onto the land. So, not easy. But worth the effort they thought. No?
And I think of the pushback against Britain and the India Tea Company.
At 73, Vincent. Me, too! I ordered the Ketcham book when it was first announced 2? 3? years ago. Feldman I read from a library book.
It is slow going. Not like a novel where one is simply pulled along, "What next? What next? Tell me more. Tell me more."
Takes longer to read this and longer for it to sink in. Truth to tell, I've found that writing up the chapter recaps has really helped me to pull the most important bits out. Or, the most important as I see it. :-) Makes me read differently.
Are you IN Georgia? Or simply deeply engaged? It's a big one.
I check the headlines every morning.
You haven't let anyone down. Though it IS good to "see" you here again. :-)
Thinking about your post 74. Tomorrow.
It is slow going. Not like a novel where one is simply pulled along, "What next? What next? Tell me more. Tell me more."
Takes longer to read this and longer for it to sink in. Truth to tell, I've found that writing up the chapter recaps has really helped me to pull the most important bits out. Or, the most important as I see it. :-) Makes me read differently.
Are you IN Georgia? Or simply deeply engaged? It's a big one.
I check the headlines every morning.
You haven't let anyone down. Though it IS good to "see" you here again. :-)
Thinking about your post 74. Tomorrow.
Adelle wrote: "At 72, Vincent wrote Yes Adelle but the European children could not just walk west and be their own boss."Hello, Vincent! Hello! :-) Well...yeah... they couldn't walk over. yeah... they couldn't ..."
No I absolutely agree that those with the means, ambition and courage - reverse the order - came - but they were not the ones who stayed in Europe or wherever - I also believe that the success of America is closely tied to both the opportunities of the frontier and empty lands and the characters of the immigrants - the ones with the courage to come - the population here was full of "risk takers" and "ambitious" people - I remember thinking that my old grandpa - who died at 97 in 1979 - was not always the stogy old man I saw. He came to America in 1904 not speaking the language and not able to fly 6 hours back home to Europe;
Adelle wrote: "At 73, Vincent. Me, too! I ordered the Ketcham book when it was first announced 2? 3? years ago. Feldman I read from a library book. It is slow going. Not like a novel where one is simply pulled ..."
Thanks - no I am not in GA - I have been since April, due to some disease and several surgeries and my even older than you76 years been keeping pretty Covid safe - secluded - so except for medical visits/ treatments & walks/hikes - with my wife and sometimes my daugther and sometimes her husband - I am seeing almost no-one - met a couple of friends a couple of times for outdoors walks/hikes - anyway I have worked by texting and letter writing (had mouth surgery twice and talking has not always been possible and is not so easy and for extended times not comfortable). - but also encouraging others - and giving some money - I am also in the midst of other readings but will try to sort of catch up with the Madison book in the coming weeks - seems a bit less pressure and it seems that only you and Bently and I are participating in the non spoiler messaging.
Have a good day
Vincent at 77. "Courage."
"What makes a King out of a slave?
What makes the flag on the mask to wave?
What makes an elephant charge his tusk in the misty mist
and the dusky dusk?
What makes a muskrat guard his musk?"
Courage.
I agree. American has its fair share of risk takers and it may well have something to do with our ancestors. Behavior? Genetics? Both?
I've uncles who are farmers, and they like to go to Vegas, and i think OF COURSE they do. Risk takers. Gambling every year on the promise of the crop.
LOL, Vincent...you're like the rest of us here!! No one can seem to read just one book at a time. Be well.
"What makes a King out of a slave?
What makes the flag on the mask to wave?
What makes an elephant charge his tusk in the misty mist
and the dusky dusk?
What makes a muskrat guard his musk?"
Courage.
I agree. American has its fair share of risk takers and it may well have something to do with our ancestors. Behavior? Genetics? Both?
I've uncles who are farmers, and they like to go to Vegas, and i think OF COURSE they do. Risk takers. Gambling every year on the promise of the crop.
LOL, Vincent...you're like the rest of us here!! No one can seem to read just one book at a time. Be well.
At 74 Vincent wrote regarding the "age difference" those born before or after 1740 - and that those born before - the so called Lee-Adams faction and those born after - including both Jefferson and Madison.
I really liked your comparison of the colonials from states/Americans as part of a nation... with the French, Germans, etc./Europeans.
In both cases it took a long time for the mindset/zeitgeist to change. Interesting. Madison did seem to look first towards American issues---but he also seemed never to lose sight of Virginia's interests. Robert E. Lee fought for the South because he was a Virginian. I STILL think of myself as a North Dakotan 'though I haven't lived there in 40 years. I would say I'm an American, but my state affiliation is just a tad below. My daughter is less "American" than I am.
On the other hand, the EU doesn't seem as solid as it once did. Brexit. Push back from Poland and Hungary. Rising nationalism or populism in some of the member nations.
Perhaps the US was somewhat easier to merge because there was a mostly universal language. It would be so sad to give up one's language and literature. The colonies had somewhat different---but also greatly similar--- government systems. AND the ALL had the same opponent, yes?
If the predominant goal of the colonies was independence from England with protections of their individual liberties from government, what was the goal of those favoring formation of the EU? Will that goal be enough to hold those long, long established nations together?
And you say one of the "children," now 50-ish, has reverted to "French."
I really liked your comparison of the colonials from states/Americans as part of a nation... with the French, Germans, etc./Europeans.
In both cases it took a long time for the mindset/zeitgeist to change. Interesting. Madison did seem to look first towards American issues---but he also seemed never to lose sight of Virginia's interests. Robert E. Lee fought for the South because he was a Virginian. I STILL think of myself as a North Dakotan 'though I haven't lived there in 40 years. I would say I'm an American, but my state affiliation is just a tad below. My daughter is less "American" than I am.
On the other hand, the EU doesn't seem as solid as it once did. Brexit. Push back from Poland and Hungary. Rising nationalism or populism in some of the member nations.
Perhaps the US was somewhat easier to merge because there was a mostly universal language. It would be so sad to give up one's language and literature. The colonies had somewhat different---but also greatly similar--- government systems. AND the ALL had the same opponent, yes?
If the predominant goal of the colonies was independence from England with protections of their individual liberties from government, what was the goal of those favoring formation of the EU? Will that goal be enough to hold those long, long established nations together?
And you say one of the "children," now 50-ish, has reverted to "French."
Chapter IX---Toward the Constitution
Madison: For the good of the country, the Congress MUST have the power to compel obedience on the part of the states regarding taxes and trade, the issuance of paper money. And if the current Confederation Congress can’t get it done, then a Congress with different rules must be formed. “Madison found that weak unions courted disaster” (184). Example: Shay’s Rebellion in 1786-87.
He believed, too, that a stronger union was required to protect American access to the Mississippi. American---with consideration towards “the rights and interests of every part of the republic.” Indeed, he thought a main problem of the existing union was that too often priority was given to selfish interests rather than to the country's general welfare; he disapproved of “the courtiers of popularity” (187).
At page 181, there’s an interesting page or two on Madison’s thinking and struggles with “government by consent” and with “inalienable rights.” Madison writes Monroe that “nothing can be more false” than to hold that the majority is necessarily right…and that the wishes of the majority are not necessarily legitimate.
“No proposal Madison ever made showed more clearly his insistence that the quality of legislation, not the nature of the enacting body, however popular, was the proper grounds for judging legitimacy” (182). Rights needed protection from popular will. He favors a “secret ballot.”
Madison: For the good of the country, the Congress MUST have the power to compel obedience on the part of the states regarding taxes and trade, the issuance of paper money. And if the current Confederation Congress can’t get it done, then a Congress with different rules must be formed. “Madison found that weak unions courted disaster” (184). Example: Shay’s Rebellion in 1786-87.
He believed, too, that a stronger union was required to protect American access to the Mississippi. American---with consideration towards “the rights and interests of every part of the republic.” Indeed, he thought a main problem of the existing union was that too often priority was given to selfish interests rather than to the country's general welfare; he disapproved of “the courtiers of popularity” (187).
At page 181, there’s an interesting page or two on Madison’s thinking and struggles with “government by consent” and with “inalienable rights.” Madison writes Monroe that “nothing can be more false” than to hold that the majority is necessarily right…and that the wishes of the majority are not necessarily legitimate.
“No proposal Madison ever made showed more clearly his insistence that the quality of legislation, not the nature of the enacting body, however popular, was the proper grounds for judging legitimacy” (182). Rights needed protection from popular will. He favors a “secret ballot.”
HISo behind - just finishedChapter 8 - Virginia Legislature and Traveler.
So Madison saw the need for a stronger central government - saw the need for both capitalism and reasonable regulation and reasonable funding (taxation) to meet fiscally responsible governing.
Very impressive - his learning curve and the components of them in dealing not only with Virginia but also other states and trade.
Also interesting the Virginia view towards expansion - how much of this due to slavery and the agricultural economy making the new land necessary and useful? How much less important at the time to the northern states where industry and manufacturing was a growing economic force and where the climate would make year round ownership of slaves less easy and less profitable - if profitable at all.
Just thinking with my keyboard.
Also I wonder that maybe beyond the advantages of the3/5th compromise in the electoral college maybe the richer gentry of the South - maybe Virginia especially - led to the third, fourth and fifth presidents being from there. The family wealth that let Jefferson, Madison and Monroe, at relatively young ages participate so actively in government did not really exist in the northern states and the political leaders in the more northern states who seemed to have led more in the Revolutionary War were notably older, Adams (Sam and John) Franklin etc. - any thoughts?? - anyway I try to move forward a bit more quickly
Adelle wrote: "At 74 Vincent wrote regarding the "age difference" those born before or after 1740 - and that those born before - the so called Lee-Adams faction and those born after - including both Jefferson an..."Hi Adelle - just a comment on giving up.
Early in the last century both my paternal and maternal grandparents came from Europe
My father's family from Sicily - escaping a lot of poverty and arriving for opportunity - and they regretted a bit the leaving behind of the culture and language - especially those who never really became totally literate with the language
My mother's family - Jews from Austria Hungary fled poverty and discrimination and other ugliness - they really left behind the culture and language - they kept their religion, sort of, my mother and one of her sisters married second generation Italian-Americans and neither raised their kids in any religion -
Anyway I think folks came here not only for opportunity but also fleeing poverty and oppression - think the Irish in the potato famine etc - just food for thought
Vince
Hi Vincent! I'm on the phone instead of the computer, so it's a challenge to write here. Wanted to acknowledge your responses. Hope to get on computer soon. I find I fell behind timewise, too, especially past few days. Interesting mix of people in your background, too.
At #82 Vincent wrote: " I wonder that maybe beyond the advantages of the3/5th compromise in the electoral college maybe the richer gentry of the South - maybe Virginia especially - led to the third, fourth and fifth presidents being from there.
Interesting... one of those situations in which one can see both sides. The states with slave populations wanted the slaves counted because it would ensure them additional representatives they would otherwise not have. Similar situation today... States with large illegal immigrant populations don't want citizenship questions on the census because the states accrue benefits from showing a larger population count.
I think in the past there was an advantage to being "the favorite son' of some state. And maybe still a presidential candidate has something of a home state advantage. Sometimes. McGovern didn't carry South Dakota and Trump didn't carry New York.
The family wealth that let Jefferson, Madison and Monroe, at relatively young ages participate so actively in government did not really exist in the northern states and the political leaders in the more northern states who seemed to have led more in the Revolutionary War were notably older, Adams (Sam and John) Franklin etc. - any thoughts?? -
Just my take: The impetus for the Revolution came from the North. They seemed more fire-in-the-belly/Don't-tread-on-me types... pushing for independence...probably motivated, too, by the increasing crack down on smuggling. The South seemed to have men who were qualified to step into leadership positions (Washington, militarily) and who could develop the theoretical/legal foundations that needed to be written out.
..."
Interesting... one of those situations in which one can see both sides. The states with slave populations wanted the slaves counted because it would ensure them additional representatives they would otherwise not have. Similar situation today... States with large illegal immigrant populations don't want citizenship questions on the census because the states accrue benefits from showing a larger population count.
I think in the past there was an advantage to being "the favorite son' of some state. And maybe still a presidential candidate has something of a home state advantage. Sometimes. McGovern didn't carry South Dakota and Trump didn't carry New York.
The family wealth that let Jefferson, Madison and Monroe, at relatively young ages participate so actively in government did not really exist in the northern states and the political leaders in the more northern states who seemed to have led more in the Revolutionary War were notably older, Adams (Sam and John) Franklin etc. - any thoughts?? -
Just my take: The impetus for the Revolution came from the North. They seemed more fire-in-the-belly/Don't-tread-on-me types... pushing for independence...probably motivated, too, by the increasing crack down on smuggling. The South seemed to have men who were qualified to step into leadership positions (Washington, militarily) and who could develop the theoretical/legal foundations that needed to be written out.
..."
Adelle wrote: "At #82 Vincent wrote: " I wonder that maybe beyond the advantages of the3/5th compromise in the electoral college maybe the richer gentry of the South - maybe Virginia especially - led to the third..."I agree that the northern colonies had more fire in the belly etc - maybe because they were less agrarian - You are right that Washington as a man and military man was likely an essential component to winning the revolutionary war - that being said if there were no “south” I would guess that leaders would have been found in the northern colonies - albeit a bit older than the southern ones
So being the slow occupied guy that I am I have just finished chapter nine - so far behind - I am really struck by how Madison was using this time between the end of the Revolutionary war and the Constitutional convention to hone his thoughts / philosophies.
His doing this with his participation in the Virginia legislature and his studying the books that Jefferson sent to him from France.
So his was the concept of a six year term for the senate and of the senators being chosen by electors chosen by the people (the electors idea from Maryland) - and of life terms for judges (taken from the English system) etc
His realistic understanding I think of how fragile the new nation was - this new experiment in democracy.
Very worthwhile if slow reading for me. I now think that the dis-union possibilities he saw at that time might now be echoed by the current division we have in America - and some of us treat the current division it seems the way Rhode Island buried her/its/his head in the sand in the 1780s as the nation was foundering.
At #86 Vincent wrote: " I would guess that leaders would have been found in the northern colonies - albeit a bit older than the southern ones..."
Necessity the mother of invention and all. One must make do with what one has. Adams was a lawyer. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any other lawyers from the north involved in the revolution---'though there MUST have been some.
Hamilton lived in the north...he originated elsewhere, but perhaps we should consider him a northerner.
But no one else, in my opinion, had the skill set and self-discipline that Madison had. I really think the country was blessed to have him.
Necessity the mother of invention and all. One must make do with what one has. Adams was a lawyer. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any other lawyers from the north involved in the revolution---'though there MUST have been some.
Hamilton lived in the north...he originated elsewhere, but perhaps we should consider him a northerner.
But no one else, in my opinion, had the skill set and self-discipline that Madison had. I really think the country was blessed to have him.
Vincent wrote: "So being the slow occupied guy that I am I have just finished chapter nine - so far behind -
I am really struck by how Madison was using this time between the end of the Revolutionary war and the ..."
LOL, Vincent! Now I'M the slow, occupied participant. I haven't yet read Chapter 9. I'll have to get on it.
EDIT. lol...I did read chapter 9. It's 10 I need to start on.
I am really struck by how Madison was using this time between the end of the Revolutionary war and the ..."
LOL, Vincent! Now I'M the slow, occupied participant. I haven't yet read Chapter 9. I'll have to get on it.
EDIT. lol...I did read chapter 9. It's 10 I need to start on.
THEN. At the convention, the delegates painstakingly went over ever sentence, clause by clause.
NOW. Legislation thousands of pages in length are not even read prior to being voted on.
NOW. Legislation thousands of pages in length are not even read prior to being voted on.
Adelle wrote: "At #86 Vincent wrote: " I would guess that leaders would have been found in the northern colonies - albeit a bit older than the southern ones..."Necessity the mother of invention and all. One mus..."
So I agree that in attitude and outlook and economic view and perspective Hamilton was a northerner - but at that time I would even say a non-slavery oriented person -which at the time might have almost meant a non agrarian focused person.
Anyway I don't know how much we needed lawyers for the Revolution but for the Constitution I do agree that Madison was invaluable but I think we would have found another - or others
Maybe try Washington was the "indispensable man". - I think of men like Joseph Warren of Massachusetts but to have had one with the determination and military experience and stature and charisma of Washington might have been tough. But to think on it if the Revolutionary War ad failed might the colonies have embarked on a long term rebellion similar to the Irish.
Anyway
Hopefully by the end of this week I start chapter 10
have a good day
I'm working on chapter 11--Ratification, so we're not too far apart! You have a good day, too.
The History Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
The Aeneid (other topics)War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning (other topics)
Discourse on the Origin and Foundations of Inequality among Men: by Jean-Jacques Rousseau with Related Documents (other topics)
The Social Contract (other topics)
The Three Lives of James Madison: Genius, Partisan, President (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Virgil (other topics)Chris Hedges (other topics)
Lao Tzu (other topics)
Jean-Jacques Rousseau (other topics)
Noah Feldman (other topics)
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The link that I posted did go over some of the influences of the founding fathers. Yes, I am not sure what contributed to his long life but certainly..."
Thanks Bentley - yes I did finally see that - I tried to get my thoughts posted before I went thru the links. That link you made will take me some time to get thru - (I still think I have to be jealous of your reading speed and comprehension)