In This House of Brede, November, Spoiler Thread

[Hana, Hana is In Absentia]

This thread is for discussion of the whole book.

[Portia]

I read this book when it first came out and watched the “Made for TV” presentation with Diana Rigg. I have been looking forward to revisiting Brede for ages.

[Fergus, Weaver of Autistic Webs]

Back in the sixties, my Grandmother picked this up in her Book-of-the-Month Club, and I was very interested, though its formidable size and complex content scared me off. I’m very happy now that I put it off till I my current age of seventy!

It’s great.

[Barb in Maryland]

I wonder how much, if any, of this story was influenced by Dolores Hart's decision in 1963 to give up a successful acting career and join a Benedictine convent...

[Hana, Hana is In Absentia]

I'm actually reading this for the first time even though I'm moderating so for the spoilers thread "Talk amongst yourselves!"

[Fergus, Weaver of Autistic Webs]

Barb, that makes a lot of sense.

[Hana, Hana is In Absentia]

Back in the 1970s I knew a very successful owner of a backgammon club who left the New York high society gambling scene to enter a Cistercian monastery. One of my college friends who had a major crush on him kept trying to visit him and convince him to give up his vocation. She did not succeed.

[Fergus, Weaver of Autistic Webs]

What a wonderful story, Barbara. Riches to rags, and sorry, his mind’s made up!

[Fergus, Weaver of Autistic Webs]

Sorry, Hanna!

[Karlyne]

As we get into the Vatican upheavals and modernizations, we do get some of the answers to the class questions. Once again, it's Hilary who puts her thumb on it when she replies to Sister Louise's "We should all be equal...We are all educated now."
"Huh!" Hilary said it almost rudely. "Most of us could pass an ordinary examination if we were pushed and coached, but a choir nun has to have exceptional qualifications..."
And that's how things did become "more equal": the requirements changed, because the entire structure of the Catholic church changed.

[Karlyne]

I really can't even imagine the music - but I wish I could. I may have to see what I can find to listen to that might at least give me an idea!

[Hana, Hana is In Absentia]

I found this video about a Benedictine order in Kansas City. The nuns seem to have found a balance and joy in their lives that many would envy--and the singing is celestial!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po5LZ...

[Karlyne]

I've been listening to a group this morning! And this is where I'm quite annoyed that I know so little Latin, let alone all that much about music theory. I would definitely not have qualified as a choir nun (although I love to sing!)

[Portia]

Karlyne wrote: "I really can't even imagine the music - but I wish I could. I may have to see what I can find to listen to that might at least give me an idea!"

Oh, I can. I went to an all girls Catholic school pre-Vatican II. My husband used to joke that I am fluent in Latin because we girls had to do the responses at Mass (no altar boys in a girls school!). I freely admit that I hate folk masses.

[Karlyne]

Portia wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "I really can't even imagine the music - but I wish I could. I may have to see what I can find to listen to that might at least give me an idea!"

Oh, I can. I went to an all girls C..."

I had forgotten about folk masses; are they still a thing?! I listened this morning to the Benedictine nuns and found it gorgeously fascinating, but to my untrained unLatinized ear, I couldn't pick out a word!

[Hana, Hana is In Absentia]

I had two years of Latin but I had trouble as well since most of the Latin I used for years was medical and scientific terminology not the liturgy.

I'm Jewish and so many of the prayers the nuns say are from the Psalms and from Biblical texts like Isaiah that I found myself hearing familiar lines in Hebrew.

One of the excellent things about being Jewish is that we don't have a central authority so we never went through the 60's/70s upheaval--at least not in my Orthodox wing. I love it that I can go pretty much anywhere in the world and find a synagogue where the prayers and readings are in Hebrew and totally familiar--though the melodies and accents vary quite a bit.

Not too many Jewish congregations can sing as well as the Benedictine sisters, though.

[Barb in Maryland]

I remember all the post-Vatican II upheaval of switching from a Mass said in Latin, with the priest's back to the congregation to Mass in the vernacular (English for those in the US), with the priest facing the people. I loved the 'new' version; my grandparents muttered a lot, but soon came around.
My recollection of the Latin Mass does not include much, if any, congregational singing.
Karlyne--oh! the 'folk' masses!! They certainly were a thing back in the late '60s and early '70s. But they paved the way towards getting the congregations used to singing as a regular part of the service.

[Barb in Maryland]

Small change of subject. I did not expect to tear up as much as I have (and I still have several chapters to go...). Need to stock up on tissues, as I've already gone through quite a few!
Philippa's story about her son broke my heart.

[Susan in NC]

Portia wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "I really can't even imagine the music - but I wish I could. I may have to see what I can find to listen to that might at least give me an idea!"

Oh, I can. I went to an all girls C..."

My mother went to all-girl Catholic high school at the same time in Chicago, same with the Latin.took a while for the Vatican II changes to trickle down to local parishes, we attended the same Catholic grade school as our mother on the South Side of Chicago through the early 1970s, still had nuns in habits teaching, Latin masses. They were careful what we overheard, but I think my elderly, devout relatives thought folk Masses were for “hippies” - mind you, the memory of the Democratic convention of 1968 was still burned into their brains, family of Irish Catholic cops and all. So that was quite a slur!

As for singing in Latin, our beloved first grade nun took us to the church basement piano room and taught us Salve Regina, which is still a favorite hymn. We didn’t really know what it meant, just learned the words - we just knew it was about Mary, and that was good enough for us! We loved Mary, we loved our nun, and of course we loved our mothers, so I always thought of Mary as all of them rolled into one - along with a soupçon of Carol Burnett, I think because we watched her every Saturday night and she was fun and warm and funny, like my mom! Funny what you remember...

[Susan in NC]

Barb in Maryland wrote: "I remember all the post-Vatican II upheaval of switching from a Mass said in Latin, with the priest's back to the congregation to Mass in the vernacular (English for those in the US), with the prie..."

Yes, my old people and yours felt the same! I don’t remember much of the Latin masses either - again, hadn’t learned yet! But you’re right, it got the faithful used to singing- my dad was raised Protestant, loved belting out hymns in church, was appalled at the paltry Catholic offerings! I read a fascinating book years ago, Why Catholics Can't Sing: The Culture of Catholicism and the Triumph of Bad Taste , explains the role of the Irish American clergy, their power and control in the American church, and how it affected how much or how little, music played a part in worship.

[Susan in NC]

Karlyne wrote: "Portia wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "I really can't even imagine the music - but I wish I could. I may have to see what I can find to listen to that might at least give me an idea!"

Oh, I can. I went to..."

Well, here in NC, at the Catholic Church my mom attended up until her death five years ago, they still had what she and they called a “guitar mass” with a band of parishioners, on Sundays. Not sure about other diocese.

[Susan in NC]

Hana wrote: "I had two years of Latin but I had trouble as well since most of the Latin I used for years was medical and scientific terminology not the liturgy.

I'm Jewish and so many of the prayers the nuns ..."

But cantors are great singers, aren’t they? Are they theologically trained as well, or more like music directors? I know rabbis officiate, and here in Greensboro, the rabbi of the biggest, oldest synagogue is very active in social justice issues, often on the news, pretty well known locally.

[Fergus, Weaver of Autistic Webs]

I loved Hanna’s comment that the prayers of the sisters are familiar to those of Jewish persuasion! As for myself, I was so curious about the verbal content of the sisters’ numerous pauses for prayer, that I went out and got the massive Kindle version of the 2021 Liturgy of the Hours. It’s wonderful!

Be forewarned, though, it takes up an exorbitant amount of memory on your Kindle. Personally I don’t mind: it slows down my Kindle speed (on my old Kindle: I have two) but will remain my go-to book for quiet hours in 2021. And it’s cheap.

[Fergus, Weaver of Autistic Webs]

And Susan, you’re right! We post-Vatican II Catholics have thrown out the vibrant and robust Baby of the good old hymns for the Bathwater of a few new insipid little ditties!

[Susan in NC]

Fergus wrote: "And Susan, you’re right! We post-Vatican II Catholics have thrown out the vibrant and robust Baby of the good old hymns for the Bathwater of a few new insipid little ditties!"

Well put!

[Barb in Maryland]

Well, I've finished. I feel like I've been put through an emotional wringer--but in a good way!

[Fergus, Weaver of Autistic Webs]

Congratulations, Barb!

[Karen]

Thanks for the link Hana, I just downloaded one of their albums.

[Hana, Hana is In Absentia]

Barb in Maryland wrote: "Well, I've finished. I feel like I've been put through an emotional wringer--but in a good way!"

I shed some tears as well! And I didn't want the book to end. I do wish I could have followed Dame Phillipa to Japan. The new monastery in Japan sounded gorgeous--particularly the garden.

[Hana, Hana is In Absentia]

The earliest gardeners in Japan were monks (of the Buddhist variety), recreating the dream of heaven on earth in the monastery grounds. I learned about them while reading The Garden of Evening Mists

[Hana, Hana is In Absentia]

Susan in NC wrote: "But cantors are great singers, aren’t they? Are they theologically trained as well, or more like music directors? ...."

Most synagogues don't have an official cantor, though there are usually a handful of talented and scholarly men who lead the prayer services and chant the readings from the Torah and the prophets. And yes, they have to be very knowledgeable like the Benedictine choir nuns, though they don't always have great voices.

[Karlyne]

I'm so glad that we read this book when we did; it was for me an antidote to the hateful-and-proud-of-it world of politics, terrorism, and self-righteousness we're living through. And it reminded me that we do have authors who have the answer to it, and it sent me to Goudge's The Dean's Watch. We read it as a group a while back, but I'd forgotten that the whole ending is not only Christmas (it'll be going on my Christmas shelf when I'm done), but a beautiful tale of redemption and love toward all, the nasty, the smelly - and even the rich.

[Barb in Maryland]

Karlyne--funny you should mention Goudge's book--
I'm looking for a copy of 'Brede' to put on the shelf with my copy of 'The Dean's Watch'! They are both excellent examples of spiritual fiction--true comfort reads.

[Susan in NC]

Karlyne wrote: "I'm so glad that we read this book when we did; it was for me an antidote to the hateful-and-proud-of-it world of politics, terrorism, and self-righteousness we're living through. And it reminded m..."

“Nasty and smelly”, lol, you make me laugh, and I thank you for that! But you’re absolutely right, I too find solace from the dreadful news in older books - some old favorites, some new, just set in times past. A good reminder, that this too shall pass!

[Susan in NC]

Hana wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "But cantors are great singers, aren’t they? Are they theologically trained as well, or more like music directors? ...."

Most synagogues don't have an official cantor, though th..."

Thanks, I did not know that!

[Susan in NC]

Barb in Maryland wrote: "Karlyne--funny you should mention Goudge's book--
I'm looking for a copy of 'Brede' to put on the shelf with my copy of 'The Dean's Watch'! They are both excellent examples of spiritual fiction--tr..."

Wonderful! I think you’ve both identified a lovely subgroup of Retro Reads for our group to further explore in the New Year! (For my contribution, I’ve got a few lovely historical mystery series set among cloistered religious communities I’ve read and enjoyed over the years...)

[Hana, Hana is In Absentia]

Excellent, Susan. Let's all go on a retreat together and not emerge until sometime next spring (but only if the groundhog goes out first) ;)

[Susan in NC]

Hana wrote: "Excellent, Susan. Let's all go on a retreat together and not emerge until sometime next spring (but only if the groundhog goes out first) ;)"

Excellent plan, my dear!

[Hana, Hana is In Absentia]

Don't forget to cross-post your reading ideas here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

[Hana, Hana is In Absentia]

Susan, I seem to remember you are a fan of the superb Brother Cadfael series. Dame Philippa struck me right from the start as a sort of 20th century female version of our favorite Benedictine from Shrewsbury. No murders at Brede, though there was an excellent mystery.

[Karlyne]

Barb in Maryland wrote: "Well, I've finished. I feel like I've been put through an emotional wringer--but in a good way!"

I had to put the book down several times - actually, at least half a dozen times - because of the tears in my eyes and the overflow down my cheeks.

[Barb in Maryland]

Karlyne-- I know! I went through half a box of tissues, at least. The emotion got to me, but I never felt sad. Except during Philippa's story about her son.

As an aside-Philippa really could have used a few sessions with a therapist! Instead, she just crammed all that grief into a corner of her heart (and soul) and tried to carry on as if Keith's death was no longer affecting her. Poor Philippa...

[Fergus, Weaver of Autistic Webs]

I’m VERY interested in Garden of Evening Mists, Hanna! I will check it out. And Barb, thanks for the reminder to recommence The Dean’s Watch - it’s more slowly paced than Brede, perhaps, but delightful nonetheless!

[Susan in NC]

Hana wrote: "Susan, I seem to remember you are a fan of the superb Brother Cadfael series. Dame Philippa struck me right from the start as a sort of 20th century female version of our favorite Benedictine from ..."

Yes, I am a Cadfael fan! And I agree - I’m only up to the part right after the Abbess’ death, but I kept thinking, “Philippa needs to take over - her civil service experience would help her whip things into shape!” As with Cadfael, that real-world experience can be invaluable in the cloister! Then reality hit, and I realized Philippa has only just left the novitiate, so patience is required...

[Karlyne]

Barb in Maryland wrote: "Karlyne-- I know! I went through half a box of tissues, at least. The emotion got to me, but I never felt sad. Except during Philippa's story about her son.

As an aside-Philippa really could have ..."

Sometimes I think that with a real tragedy (and I can't think of anything that even comes close to the death of a child) the only way we can survive is to slap the tightest bandage possible on the hurt and let the healing happen in its own time. Maybe some griefs just have to stay solitary until we can let them out without blowing ourselves to pieces.

[Susan in NC]

Karlyne wrote: "Barb in Maryland wrote: "Karlyne-- I know! I went through half a box of tissues, at least. The emotion got to me, but I never felt sad. Except during Philippa's story about her son.

As an aside-Ph..."

I agree, and your last sentence is beautiful!

[Hana, Hana is In Absentia]

Karlyne wrote: "Maybe some griefs just have to stay solitary until we can let them out without blowing ourselves to pieces.
..." So true and so well said. Thank you, Karlyne.

[Karen]

Hana wrote: "The earliest gardeners in Japan were monks (of the Buddhist variety), recreating the dream of heaven on earth in the monastery grounds. I learned about them while reading The Garden of Evenin..."</i>

The [book:The Garden of Evening Mists is one of my all time favorite books.

[Susan in NC]

Finished yesterday, I know I’ll want to find a physical copy to revisit- I feel like you could read it through, or dip in and out for spiritual refreshment! I found myself wanting to slow down, or meaning to just read for an hour or so, but dashing through an entire 50-page chunk at a time! Who would’ve thought the lives of nuns could be so gripping? I’ve known some amazing nuns in my day, but wow!...

[Karlyne]

I don't think I've ever even met a nun! I have had friends who were or are Catholic, but nary a nun among them.