"The Way of Thorn and Thunder" by Daniel Heath Justice (BR)

[Amanda]

Buddy read thread for The Way of Thorn and Thunder by Daniel Heath Justice starting November 11.

Please use spoiler tags where appropriate!

[Meredith]

I'll be starting later today probably.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I have it ready to go! Just gotta finish a couple short stories real quick.

[Travis]

I'm not sure how much I'll be able to participate without rereading it and because I'd borrowed my copy from the library. But I'm really looking forward to reading the comments.

[Jemppu]

I'm well into it, but not sure exactly how far, since attempt to convert the text to read-aloud capable is a work in process, and thus total page count is... in pieces.

Not sure how 'valuable' I'd be for the convo, anyway... but will be keen to follow everyone's thoughts. I've had this lying on my current-read list for about a year now, making very slow process (due to the aforementioned read-aloud issue and my 'incapability' to eye-read).

Thanks for setting up the BR.

[Mareike]

I'm two chapters in and really loving how richly drawn this world is. There's a real weight to it.
And I'm fascinated by the characters we've met so far.

Chapter 2 (view spoiler)[I am very, very intrigued by Unahi and I liked the way some of the larger political/societal history of the community in Red Cedar Town and her personal history - and how they are intertwined (the personal is political, indeed) - were gradually revealed. (hide spoiler)]

I'm looking forward to learning more about all of this.

[Anthony]

I’ll be joining within a day or two; I am finishing a library book that’s due in a few days. Sorry for my poor time management!

[Mareike]

Nothing to apologize for - time is weird this year.
And given the length of this book, we'll be here for a while, I think. XD

[Nicol]

I’m also two chapters in. Didn’t realize it would be a trilogy in one book but I’m already drawn in. Really like the setting and the writing so far.

[Amanda]

Yeah, I doubt I'll be making decent progress until the weekend.

[Jemppu]

Time is indeed quite abnormal this year - and shifts in schedule understandable in any case. The thread is open for when ever o/

I'm worried my own 'reading' might come to a halt with this at some point soon; if the text I've so far converted for read-aloud runs out before I'm free from current illustration inspo.

[Meredith]

I've read the first three chapters and really enjoying the details of the world and the people we are meeting and their interactions.

[DivaDiane]

I will start this tonight. Hopefully. I’m a little vague if I don’t have other books I intended on reading sooner.

[Amanda]

Just finished Cycle One, and I'm... a little bit lost, probably because I've managed very little uninterrupted reading time so far but I think also partly because there are a lot of characters / rotating POVs to keep track of. I am really enjoying it though, I love the atmosphere and the themes and am looking forward to seeing the plot come together.

[Meredith]

Through chapter 6 (view spoiler)[ I totally thought the creepy shadow creatures were coming after Unahi and then that Leith might have just been in the wrong place at the wrong time. So, now I'm intrigued by this new thread of something else out there with an agenda. (hide spoiler)]

@Amanda, I have just one more chapter in Cycle One and I agree about the cast of thousands that keeps growing.

I continue to enjoy all the details of the world and learning more about the history.

[Nicol]

Does anyone know how they cycles translate to the trilogy - which cycles were originally in the first book and so on?

[Mareike]

This says that one novel was divided into seven cycles in the omnibus version (I assume there'll be spoilers past the first paragraph I got that info from before noping out again, so tread carefully):
https://www.tor.com/2019/05/21/quiltb...

Edit: No, wait, that's a description of the omnibus. *facepalm*
This is why I shouldn't post comments before I've had my first cup of coffee.

[Amanda]

Just finished chapter 11, (view spoiler)[ Tarsa's journey to the Eternity Tree was stunning and beautiful. I found this line especially moving:

A soft wind rustled through the leaves, sending its whispers in unknown tongues through the world, to bring precious pain to those whose hearts could still know longing.

So far I'm finding this to have a really strong epic fantasy feel; the tropes are definitely there but it doesn't feel formulaic at all. (hide spoiler)]

[Mareike]

Meredith wrote: "Through chapter 6 [spoilers removed]

Agreed. (view spoiler)[That was a very, very well done piece of misdirection, imho. (hide spoiler)]

I just finished chapter 8 and I hope to read some more later today but (view spoiler)[I wonder who the Kyn was that broke Merrimyn out of the dungeon. Someone we have yet to fully meet? (hide spoiler)]

There's definitely a lot going on I wish I had a week off to just dedicate to this book.

Also, question about ch. 7 (view spoiler)[Did I understand correctly that the creatures that attacked Leith were sent by Vald? (hide spoiler)]

More a general remark, but it contains references to ch. 3 and Cycle 2: (view spoiler)[I appreciate the different "interests we've gotten so far, like the excerpt from Reach-wide Journeyer's Gazetteer at the beginning of ch. 3 or the oral story that opens Cycle 2. That's such a good way of highlighting different traditions and mindsets without having to go into long info-dumps. (hide spoiler)]

Edit: Amanda, I hope to catch up with you later so I can read what you've tagged.

[Meredith]

Mareike wrote: "Meredith wrote: "Through chapter 6 [spoilers removed]."
Also, question about ch. 7 ...

That was my interpretation too (regarding Chapter 7 question).

[Meredith]

Amanda wrote: "Just finished chapter 11, ...

Agree, (view spoiler)[ the descriptions of the setting and her feelings were lovely, and I was quite moved, especially when Tarsa came out from the tunnel and the other Wielders were there to welcome her. (hide spoiler)]

[Anthony]

After 28 chapters, I’m drawn in to the world, but also a little frustrated with pacing issues. (view spoiler)[ I think the abiding sorrow that animates this novel, the terrible legacy of the Trail of Tears, is powerful, and I think Justice has done an admirable job of refracting this history into his fantastical setting. I guess that for me his biggest weakness is in how he has put together his structure, which results in a sort of diffuse pacing. More recently there have been some pretty well-drawn action set pieces, but I think a surer hand would have managed to drive the narrative forward with a more propulsive energy.

I do also appreciate that Justice is not afraid of putting his characters in true peril, and that nothing comes easily to them. And I think his villain is mostly convincingly drawn. (hide spoiler)]

Overall, I’m glad to be reading this, but I think it could have used a stronger editor than is evinced in this version of his tale.

[Jemppu]

Anthony wrote: "After 28 chapters, I’m drawn in to the world, but also a little frustrated with pacing issues..."

Agreed on all of this (now that I've had a bit more solid experience with the structure as well). The evidence of the legacy incorporated into aspects of this world is perhaps my favorite thing going for the book. The telling, not so much.

And, I just realized another factor, which I'm sure will now start to bother me for its absence: there is very little in terms of dialogue (exchanged or inner), to add some enlivening wit or charm to the text.

Still, glad too to be (finally) reading this in full. It has some fairly unique, fairly compelling ideas.


(I also keep thinking this could have potential as a 'concept script' for graphic novelization).

[Amanda]

Anthony wrote: "After 28 chapters, I’m drawn in to the world, but also a little frustrated with pacing issues..."

I'm not far enough in to click the spoiler, but yes to everything else. I wish I could enjoy the writing more because I love the world and appreciate the story so much.

The many POVs is continuing to be a frustration though, and not helping with the pacing. I've had several moments where I have to stop and try to remember who this character is that we met for maybe 3 pages and 8 chapters ago

[Anthony]

Re dialogue, (view spoiler)[ it was such a breath of fresh air when the actress Denarra joined the cast. I also enjoy the rhythms of Thobi’s speech. (hide spoiler)] But I agree, more prevalent dialogue would almost certainly help.

[Jemppu]

Ah, good point! Right you are about Tobhi: there's character to that speech.

Amanda wrote: "...I've had several moments where I have to stop and try to remember who this character is that we met for maybe 3 pages and 8 chapters ago..."

This. I've rewound a couple of times to catch up, too. Although, I do usually (and rather here as well) enjoy multiple POV.

[Mareike]

Amanda wrote: "Just finished chapter 11, [spoilers removed]."

Finally made a little bit of progress. I swear this week has conspired against me where "for fun" reading time is concerned. Anyway.

About the scene in Ch. 11 Amanda mentioned: (view spoiler)[I completely agree! It was such a beautifully crafted sequence. I had goosebumps when Tarsa heard her mother's honor song.

And I also agree on your observation about the book managing to feel like a truly epic fantasy, but without feeling trope-bound or formulaic.
I am kind of glad we were spared lengthy chapters of Tarsa's training, which can be such a staple of epic fantasies with a character that has been "newly initiated" into their abilities. (I hope I'm not speaking too early on this.) (hide spoiler)]

Another scene in ch. 11 I found fascinating (view spoiler)[was the one between Daladir and Vald. The way the actual game and the game of politics mirrored each other was so well done. In many ways a staple of the genre, but Heath Justice again managed to give it a spin of his own. And it was another scene in which the conflicting worldviews of Humans and Kyn contrasted very starkly.
I loved these bits concerning justice by Daladir:

<< [...] The sightless life of the first Man is in no way improved by the blinding of a second, nor is the harm of falsehood ended by tormenting the liar. Instead, the wrongdoer in both cases should give of his service to those he's harmed, until such time as the measured harm is repaid.>>

I must say I like this reparative justice approach a lot more than Vald's << [...] The only true justice is swift, certain, and unclouded by irrelevant complications. [...]>>

Also, Vald's conception of the land and landownership is quite Jeffersonian, which is obviously no surprise. (hide spoiler)]

[Meredith]

End of chapter 15 (view spoiler)[ The mysterious 'airship' was a cool element of steam punk. The lurker with red hair and violet eyes is Neranda, right? Seems odd that Tobhi would forget where he'd seen someone that significant and distinctive-looking. (hide spoiler)]

I agree, Jemppu, this would be great in graphic novel form. There's so much detail of characters and the environment.

[Amanda]

Through chapter 28, The plot is starting to pick up some more (view spoiler)[although I'm a little unsure as to how the timelines are fitting together from the start of Cycle Four. It seems to be flowing a lot better for me as well, since I don't think the storyline is jumping between characters quite so frequently anymore. I'm also enjoying getting to spend more time with Quill and I'm really getting to like her. (hide spoiler)]

[Meredith]

End of Chapter 21 (view spoiler)[ I thought Tarsa's rescue of Tobhi and Daladir was very cool. I like that she braved taking off her iron-ward and used the awakened power she had been struggling against to save their lives.

Buuuuttt.... When you 1) travel to a hostile foreign country, 2) to rescue an ambassadorial group that is being slowly killed off, and 3) you are attacked on the road by your host's employees, then 4) you dine with your host who does not eat the same food as you, and 5) you notice the interesting bitter flavor of your meal/drink... I mean, c'mon! I thought they put Tobhi on this rescue crew because he was supposed to be slightly savvy. (hide spoiler)]

[Mareike]

I agree about your first point.

The second one (view spoiler)[...I'm kinda willing to excuse some of that cause of her youth and not knowing many humans? Plus, the ways of the Kyn are so very different, I think the possibility of someone doing that would just not cross her mind?
I was more stuck on them staying for so long when they knew timecwas of the essence.... (hide spoiler)]

[Meredith]

Mareike wrote: "I agree about your first point.

The second one ..."

(view spoiler)[ true, but the naiveté affected the whole party, even after they knew Daladir was the sole survivor of the first group. Maybe the Celestials didn't think it could happen to them. That is a good point about the shortness of time not really affecting them. (hide spoiler)]

[Mareike]

Yes, I think that's true about the Celestials.

[Mareike]

Finished Ch. 24 last night (view spoiler)[I think DHJ is doing a really good job of creating a sense of foreboding. We know that bad things will happen, and the characters know, too, to some extent. And at the same time they don't know. Quill, for example, doesn't know that that Seeker is gonna come for her again. But we as readers know that already. And that's just one thing that's potentially gonna affect one character. There's also the larger overall situation and what is to come from that. I've definitely been extremely worried for our "heroes" and their people.

I also thought the backstory we got on Vald and the look into his mind, if you will, was very interesting. I do get the feeling that there's gonna be a "The spirits I've called / My commands ignore" situation for him in the future.
And I was wondering if the Dreyd are in some way connected to the story that opened the Third Cycle, with the fall of the Makers. Basically, are there connections between the human myths/religions and the Kyn myths and if so, what are they? (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I totally dropped the ball on this. Still reading, but had to take a hiatus, looking forward to reading through when I get back to it!

[Nicol]

Meredith wrote: "Amanda wrote: "Just finished chapter 11, ...

Agree, [spoilers removed]"

I also agree, it was such a beautiful description and so vivid in my imagination, I definitely wish it existed and I could go there!

[Amanda]

Finished!

(view spoiler)[ I really wish I could have enjoyed this more than I did. It has some very lovely moments, I love the world and the characters and it manages to make the allegory apparent without overselling it.

Unfortunately every time I felt like the narrative was picking up something sucked me out of it. Besides the POV thing, there are a lot of descriptions of outfits that were just... there, and led to me trying to picture the whole ensemble instead of paying attention to what was actually happening. Also, Vald's "becoming a god" motivation seemed a bit mustache-twirly and felt out of place with the rest of the narrative.

My main thought through reading this was honestly just how much I would have loved to see this story in a different format, either on screen or as mentioned above possibly a graphic novel. While I mentioned the clothes thing as an annoyance a lot of the setting descriptions and general mood-setting were very evocative. (hide spoiler)]

[Meredith]

I'm still reading, recently finished Cycle 5, ~78%. (view spoiler)[ whew, what a lot of suffering. The Darkening Road portions were well done and difficult to read. I like the portions with Quill and co., but they feel sort of like a tangent at this point. I'm interested to see how they tie back with the other threads. (hide spoiler)]

I'm reading this on e-book and I started another e-book (Gideon) and I usually can only make progress on one e-book at a time. I'll be done with Gideon in a couple days so then I'll be able to make the push to the finish here.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I haven't had characters get lost on me so often!

I'm on Chapter 10

(view spoiler)[ Who is the Dreydmaster again? And Daladir? I know the name of the Dreydmaster is Vald, but I don't recall what this roll is...this is like the witch guy, right? Who is the head of the order of people who trap spirits? I thought that was a Kyn thing? I guess this is an anti-Kyn thing? Halp please??? (hide spoiler)]

[Amanda]

Allison wrote: "I haven't had characters get lost on me so often!

I'm on Chapter 10

[spoilers removed]"

I wish I could help, but all I can really do is relate.

I will say that it got a little better for me as we spent more time with everyone.

[Meredith]

Allison wrote: "I haven't had characters get lost on me so often!

I'm on Chapter 10

[spoilers removed]"

I think I got it, (view spoiler)[ Vald is the Dreydmaster and the head of Eromar (province-type land-region) and he's the witch guy, a Human. He is in charge of the Seekers who chase the wielders (magical non-human folk) and the Binders who trap their spirits. Vald is a Reaver who does horrible things with the spirits of the wielders (very anti-Kyn).

Daladir is a Kyn who was in the diplomatic party to Eromar, trying to stay alive while the rest of his party are getting knocked off. I can't remember how far along things were in chapter 10 so sorry if that's a bit of a spoiler. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

no that's perfect, thank you!!

[Mareike]

After chapter 38 (view spoiler)[I'm enjoying the flashbacks we are getting from Tarsa that's a good way to fill in some blanks and also show us her transformation.

The Reachwarden deciding not to help the Kyn was almost assured given the trajectory of the story so far (and what it is based on), but that made it no less heartbreaking. I wonder if Neidam will play a larger role in the upcoming chapters. (hide spoiler)]

[Meredith]

Mareike wrote: "After chapter 38 ...."

I agree, (view spoiler)[ that was crushing even though it was expected. I thought Justice did well presenting why it wasn't cut-and-dried that he would do the right thing, even when he knew what it was and wanted to do it. (hide spoiler)]

[Mareike]

Yes, agreed.

[Mareike]

Ch. 40 (view spoiler)[I thought this was another very well done chapter. I especially liked the discussion between Kaer and Brennard. An excellent way of exploring the fact that what is "lawful" is not always morally right or just.

I did anticipate Kaer resigning to be able to help the Folk - or help the Folk and then resigning, it's not quite clear which will come first right now - but I did not see the revelation about Blackwick coming. I hope they get out of Chalimor before Thane pops up again. (hide spoiler)]

[Nicol]

Finally finished this beautiful book (or should I say trilogy?) I took my time and savored it, the time I dedicated to it required my full attention so sorry it took me some time but I am so happy I read it! I put it on my favorite shelf and wouldn't be surprised if it lands on my re-reads lists. It felt close to my heart, and made me cry many times. Thank you for the buddy read, otherwise I would have waited longer to start it!