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Archived 2015 Group Reads > Infinite Jest by D.F. Wallace, WEEK 16

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message 1: by Zulfiya (new)

Zulfiya (ztrotter) The penultimate week is the time to start wrapping things up even for this big baby. Based on your comments, the book does not need redemption for its size. So here is to another Year of the Depend Adult Undergarment, but the date, mind the date November 19. Cheers.


message 2: by Zulfiya (new)

Zulfiya (ztrotter) Guys, if there are members who have already finished the novel, I can set up the final thread. Please let me know.


message 3: by Linda (new)

Linda | 1378 comments I have not finished it yet. I wanted to post my thoughts for this week before beginning to read the last installment.


message 4: by KC (new)

KC I'm just about to start the last section.
I found this weeks section interesting, I think it read more like a normal novel since we got big chunks of story from two characters (Hal and Gately) and it didn't flip around in time all that much. I enjoyed Gately's sections more.


message 5: by Linda (new)

Linda | 1378 comments I can't believe it's the week before the last one of this highly anticipated chunkster!

I agree with KC, that this week seemed more focused as it switched between Gately and Hal. I did enjoy Gately's section, but I think I actually enjoyed Hal's section a bit more for some reason. Maybe because we are getting so close to the end, I'm looking forward to seeing how Hal's condition that we witness at the very beginning of the book comes to be. And saying that, it seems we did see some of the oddness in Hal's behavior, or apparent behavior to others, start to take place.

Oh, but before we get into what actually happened, I have to ask if I missed this previously, or if this week was actually the first time we are reading narrative in the first person, from Hal's perspective?? It must be, I think, since when I started reading the section on page 851, I was jarred by the narrative beginning "I was in a zoo. There were no animals....I put in a plug of Kodiak.....I didn't feel good at all..." I think this is interesting, because now we know exactly what Hal is thinking from his own personal perspective. I hope this will help shed some light on what is to transpire later on when everyone is talking to and at him when he apparently doesn't make sense to anybody.....

.....so I just flipped back to week one and, with it taking place so long ago, I forgot that the book actually starts with the first person narrative from Hal's point of view: "I am seated in an office....My posture is consciously congruent to the shape of the chair...I am in here..." I've gotten so used to the third person narrative used throughout most of the book. Anyway, just an observation, it kind of shocked me a bit when I started reading that Hal section this week.


message 6: by Linda (new)

Linda | 1378 comments Some random notes I took while reading this section:

It appears Randy Lenz has fallen victim to the technical "trouble-killing (ha! I had to laugh at that - as in "trouble-shooting") on the furthering field-tests of viewer willingness. I'm sure Nicola won't be too sad about this, and neither am I frankly (I hated his sick animal obsession). But sadly, it also appears that Poor Tony has also fallen victim (I was hoping he would eventually make it to Ennet House, even though we were getting towards the end of the book it seemed unlikely). And although it was slightly funny, I found it mostly sickening (probably because it was Randy doing this) that Randy was found to be cutting off Poor Tony's fingers instead of his own (and now, of course, all the data points are all messed up). I wondered if Poor Tony was victim #1 and is already dead? I was really hoping his recent withdrawal would have been his bottom and he could have had the chance to recover, so I actually feel bad for him.

A funny bit - when the AFRs are planning their hijacking of the Canadian tennis kids and Marathe "promised to conceive an excellent ruse to explain the wheelchairs and adult beards of the false players." Ha! I mean, come on. Old bearded "kid" tennis players, ALL of whom are in wheelchairs?! I would like to see what brilliant excuse he comes up for that one! (page 846)

Gately. I've noticed a pattern in some of Gately's reminiscing of his past having to do with him not standing up for people in need. This week we learn of his neighbor Mrs. Waite who baked him a birthday cake and delivered it to the party with the other neighborhood kids. She is humiliated, and immediately following commits suicide. Although Gately does not actually equate her suicide to that particular incident, he does think back on how he never stood up for her. He didn't take a slice of that cake and eat it. He allowed the mother to take it and dump it in the garbage. (page 849) Likewise, in a previous section Gately also thinks about how he never stood up to MP's abuse against his own mother. It seems like there was another example which I'm not thinking of now. Anyway, I think part of Gately's sobriety has him dealing with all of these demons of his past, which previously his drug habit helped to repress. I'm sure this was stated in some previous AA section also, but now we have particular examples of Gately's past that I'm guessing he regrets.


message 7: by Linda (new)

Linda | 1378 comments Hal. This quote stood out for me: "I couldn't remember ever actively hoping not to have to play before. I couldn't remember feeling strongly one way or the other about playing for quite a long time, in fact." (page 852)

Hal's been off of all drugs for about a week now? And now he's having real feelings. Not just going with the flow of the schedule, of what he is supposed to do each minute of his day, which is mapped out before him. Is this due to just the fact he is not on any drugs? Or is there something else at play here?

And now here is the first glimpse of Hal's odd behavior that we see at the beginning of the book. When Hal goes in search of help for Stice's stuck face, he asks Kenkle and Brandt for help, and Kenkle notices Hal's face:

"We are in route," Kenkle said, "but why the hilarity?"

"What hilarity?"
[Hal]

Kenkle looked from me to Brandt to me. "What hilarity he says. Your face is a hilarity-face. It's working hilariously.....You are almost doubled over. You can barely get your words out. You're all but slapping your knee." (page 875)

Strange!! I wonder what is the cause? As far as I can tell, there is no explanation yet.

And, possibly related? Possibly not. Pemulis discovers his stash is missing. Was the DMZ there? Who took it? Any guesses? Would somebody have possibly slipped this to Hal and that is the cause of Hal's odd behavior?


message 8: by Linda (new)

Linda | 1378 comments The transcript from the meeting with Tine Sr. and Jr. and other folks.

I was confused by this statement by Mr. Tine Jr. to Mr. Carl ("Buster") Yee:

The upcoming year's Glad's year, Buster. You wanted the year. You want the Year of Glad to be the year half the nation stopped doing anything but staring bug-eyed at some sinister cartridge while little whorls went around in their eyes until they died of starvation in the middle of their own exc--?

I've had a hard time keeping track of who knows what about the cartridges and who wants the cartridges released to the public. This statement makes it sound like the marketing director of Glad wanted the Entertainment to be released? Does that make sense? I don't get it.


message 9: by Linda (new)

Linda | 1378 comments Back to Gately. Gately basically dreams the Entertainment.

Joelle's face....distraction of the inhumanly gorgeous naked bod....Because in this dream, Mrs. Waite, who is Joelle, is Death. As in the figure of Death...Death is explaining that Death happens over and over, you have many lives, and at the end of each one (meaning life) is a woman who kills you and releases you into the next life.....Gately can't quite make out if it's like a monologue... (page 850)

Last week Gately dreams (or hallucinates?) about Himself, whom he has never met (to my knowledge). And now this week Gately is dreaming of the Entertainment, which he has never watched. Any theories on this craziness?


message 10: by Nicola (new)

Nicola | 522 comments Linda wrote: "The upcoming year's Glad's year, Buster. You wanted the year. You want the Year of Glad to be the year half the nation stopped doing anything but staring bug-eyed at some sinister cartridge while little whorls went around in their eyes until they died of starvation in the middle of their own exc--?

I've had a hard time keeping track of who knows what about the cartridges and who wants the cartridges released to the public. This statement makes it sound like the marketing director of Glad wanted the Entertainment to be released? Does that make sense? I don't get it. "


He's meaning it sarcastically I'm sure. He's actually saying:

'You wanted control of this year. So do you want this year to be the year half the population turns into vegetables dribbling in front of their TV screens? No? Well, you'd BETTER DO SOMETHING TO STOP IT THEN!'


message 11: by Nicola (new)

Nicola | 522 comments Linda wrote: Kenkle looked from me to Brandt to me. "What hilarity he says. Your face is a hilarity-face. It's working hilariously.....You are almost doubled over. You can barely get your words out. You're all but slapping your knee." (page 875)

Strange!! I wonder what is the cause? As far as I can tell, there is no explanation yet."


Remember during the Estrucheon Hal lost control of his facial features. It's the drugs,


message 12: by Nicola (new)

Nicola | 522 comments Linda wrote:
Last week Gately dreams (or hallucinates?) about Himself, whom he has never met (to my knowledge). And now this week Gately is dreaming of the Entertainment, which he has never watched. Any theories on this craziness? "


I thought that was last weeks section as they've run on for me. I've just about caught you up but I still think I'm a few pages behind.

Anyway, Gately has the ghost inside his head. When they interface he learns all of these words and I guess the same for the tapes. Jim is giving Don a message for his son, just like in the play.


message 13: by Kaycie (new)

Kaycie | 294 comments I have not abandoned you, Linda! Just had a busy week and never quite found time to post...

This week for me was the eye of the hurricane or the calm before the storm, punctuated by the quiet, sleepy feel of Hal's narrative. After last week's torrent of activity and revelations, this week seemed so calm and quiet by comparison.

I did, however, read it with a nervous pit in my stomach. Obviously, the AFR are coming for people at ETA, and, judging by what they did with the Antitoi brothers, this is not going to be pretty.

The other reason I am super nervous has to do with page numbers... at the beginning of this week's read, there were about 120 pages left. 120 pages to wrap up only about a billion loose threads. And every single page I read brought me closer and closer to no pages left, and not a whole lot of wrapping up occurred in this section. I am hoping and hoping that the last 60ish pages are just rapid-fire tying of loose strings, but I am betting that we are as far into many of the storylines as we are ever going to get.

Anyways, I briefly saw, Linda, that you mentioned the first person. I was also just as jarred as you when it switched and flipped back through the book. It does seem to be only the first chapter in the YOG that is also first person.

We do get more info on page 901 of Mario's birth and possible parentage, but I honestly think that is all we are going to get...it could be CT, it could be any number of people. I still firmly believe Orin thinks it COULD have been him, even though he was 7, which is why he's so messed up about the situation.

Anyways, off to read and respond to comments!


message 14: by Kaycie (new)

Kaycie | 294 comments Linda wrote: "Hal. This quote stood out for me: "I couldn't remember ever actively hoping not to have to play before. I couldn't remember feeling strongly one way or the other about playing for quite a long t..."

This first quote also really stood out for me, too.

And this whole passage...I noticed these things as well and have the exact same questions as you about Hal's hilarity face and the fate of Pemulis's DMZ.


message 15: by Rosemary (last edited Jan 24, 2015 11:26AM) (new)

Rosemary Kaycie wrote: "And this whole passage...I noticed these things as well and have the exact same questions as you about Hal's hilarity face and the fate of Pemulis's DMZ."

Me too!

And regarding the wrapping up, I am also thinking we may not get as much as I'd hoped for!

A couple of things I loved in this section:

- "the year of the Yushityu" - lol at that product name

- Mrs Waite "radiated whatever mixture of unpleasantness and vulnerability it was that made you want to be cruel to people" - I loved that insight


message 16: by Nicola (new)

Nicola | 522 comments Linda wrote:
It appears Randy Lenz has fallen victim to the technical "trouble-killing (ha! I had to laugh at that - as in "trouble-shooting") on the furthering field-tests of viewer willingness. I'm sure Nicola won't be too sad about this, and neither am I frankly (I hated his sick animal obsession). But sadly, it also appears that Poor Tony has also fallen victim (I was hoping he would eventually make it to Ennet House, even though we were getting towards the end of the book it seemed unlikely). And although it was slightly funny, I found it mostly sickening (probably because it was Randy doing this) that Randy was found to be cutting off Poor Tony's fingers instead of his own (and now, of course, all the data points are all messed up). I wondered if Poor Tony was victim #1 and is already dead? I was really hoping his recent withdrawal would have been his bottom and he could have had the chance to recover, so I actually feel bad for him.."


Yes I feel sorry for Poor Tony as well but I'm curious as to why the other lady didn't get picked up at the same time. After all she was in hot pursuit and didn't look like she was going to abandon the chase for anything.

Lenz, well, I'm sorry for anyone in the hand of the wheeled assassins but I admit I did think it typical that he sliced up someone else!


message 17: by Nicola (last edited Jan 24, 2015 12:04PM) (new)

Nicola | 522 comments Kaycie wrote: We do get more info on page 901 of Mario's birth and possible parentage, but I honestly think that is all we are going to get...it could be CT, it could be any number of people. I still firmly believe Orin thinks it COULD have been him, even though he was 7, which is why he's so messed up about the situation. ."

I haven't read this far but if it's clear that Orin was 7 at the time of his birth (which would make him closer to 6 for the conception?) then there is no doubt in my mind that he's not the father. Not that there was any before for me. I also don't think he could possibly imagine himself to be Mario's father either. I think any angst he feels towards his mother is from the myriad of other things and the hatred for Mario is just plain old jealousy.


message 18: by Kaycie (new)

Kaycie | 294 comments Nicola wrote: "Kaycie wrote: We do get more info on page 901 of Mario's birth and possible parentage, but I honestly think that is all we are going to get...it could be CT, it could be any number of people. I sti..."

A choose your own interpretation book, for sure! I still believe a ton of Orin's problems stem from abuse at a young age, regardless of his fertility.


message 19: by Linda (new)

Linda | 1378 comments Nicola wrote: "He's meaning it sarcastically I'm sure."

OK - thanks!


message 20: by Linda (new)

Linda | 1378 comments Nicola wrote: "Remember during the Estrucheon Hal lost control of his facial features. It's the drugs"

Yes, but he's not on drugs anymore. During the game, he was.


message 21: by Linda (new)

Linda | 1378 comments Rosemary wrote: "- "the year of the Yushityu" - lol at that product name"

Ha! Oh my goodness. I didn't even notice the name until you pointed it out here. What a riot.


message 22: by Linda (new)

Linda | 1378 comments Nicola wrote: "Yes I feel sorry for Poor Tony as well but I'm curious as to why the other lady didn't get picked up at the same time. After all she was in hot pursuit and didn't look like she was going to abandon the chase for anything."

I'm guessing Poor Tony made a quick turn into the back door? Wasn't it he who knew that the opening of the Antonoi brothers' business was coming up soon? But yeah, the other lady was keeping pretty close on his tail.


message 23: by Linda (new)

Linda | 1378 comments Rosemary wrote: "- Mrs Waite "radiated whatever mixture of unpleasantness and vulnerability it was that made you want to be cruel to people" - I loved that insight "

Yeah, I felt bad for her. And then to have someone like Don show her a little attention, it was clear that was all she needed to have her start to come out of her shell. Some actual personal interactions.


message 24: by Linda (new)

Linda | 1378 comments Nicola wrote: " but if it's clear that Orin was 7 at the time of his birth (which would make him closer to 6 for the conception?) then there is no doubt in my mind that he's not the father."

That is what I thought when I realized Orin would have only been six at the time.


message 25: by Ami (last edited Jan 24, 2015 07:25PM) (new)

Ami Linda wrote: "Hal. This quote stood out for me: "I couldn't remember ever actively hoping not to have to play before. I couldn't remember feeling strongly one way or the other about playing for quite a long t..."

Hal's been off of all drugs for about a week now? And now he's having real feelings.
Yes, give, or take a few...As of 12 November YDAU, it's been 2, maybe three days (FN 321) which would make 20 November YDAU, 11 days, 12 days tops (851)

A funny bit - when the AFRs are planning their hijacking of the Canadian tennis kids and Marathe "promised to conceive an excellent ruse to explain the wheelchairs and adult beards of the false players."

yes, absurdity at its best. My sentiments exactly, Linda. SMH

And now here is the first glimpse of Hal's odd behavior that we see at the beginning of the book. When Hal goes in search of help for Stice's stuck face, he asks Kenkle and Brandt for help, and Kenkle notices Hal's face...Strange!! I wonder what is the cause? As far as I can tell, there is no explanation yet.

This was my first inclination Hal had been dosed without knowing; the descriptions of his expressions not coinciding with what was either being discussed, the atmosphere of the current situations, and he would speak but nobody (Stice) would be able to hear him (870). It was similar to his circumstance during the interview and in line with the brief descriptions we've encountered with DMZ related symptoms. The last paragraph on 896 beginning, But the panic was there too, endocrine, paralyzing, and with an overcognitive, bad trip...

Who took it? Any guesses? Would somebody have possibly slipped this to Hal and that is the cause of Hal's odd behavior?

Well, taking into consideration the instances where the ceiling tiles had fallen and nobody could explain it leads me to believe somebody was looking specifically for this DMZ...I have an idea, but it would be better left discussed in W17.

What I find interesting is that in the past couple of weeks, we find Hal being described as either being really sad, or uncontrollably happy (currently).

Makes me wonder what was meant by Hal himself hasn't had a bona fide intensity-of-interior-life-type emotion since he was tiny; he finds terms like 'joie' and 'value' to be like so many variables in rarified equations, and he can manipulate them well enough to satisfy everyone but himself that's he's in there, as a human being-but in fact he's far more robotic than John Wayne (694).


message 26: by Linda (new)

Linda | 1378 comments Ami wrote: "This was my first inclination Hal had been dosed without knowing...

Well, taking into consideration the instances where the ceiling tiles had fallen and nobody could explain it leads me to believe somebody was looking specifically for this DMZ..."


Ahh...thanks for those details. That does make sense now. Nicola also thought it was drug-related, but I was stuck on the "but Hal's been OFF drugs for a week".

What I find interesting is that in the past couple of weeks, we find Hal being described as either being really sad, or uncontrollably happy (currently).

Yeah, I noticed this as well. Mario kept asking Hal why he was sad, just after Kenkle told Hal that he had hilarity all over his face.

Ami, I remember the quote you posted now, I also wonder about that. Does his lack of emotion coincide with anything we know of? I assume he didn't start taking drugs when he was tiny. When did he start playing tennis? Did the intensity of that interfere with his emotions? Was he brought up to be just a tennis player (so a robot who just plays tennis very well) instead of a human being? Hmmm... I'm not sure.


message 27: by Ami (last edited Jan 24, 2015 09:22PM) (new)

Ami Linda wrote: "Ami wrote: "This was my first inclination Hal had been dosed without knowing...

Well, taking into consideration the instances where the ceiling tiles had fallen and nobody could explain it leads m..."


I remember the quote you posted now, I also wonder about that. Does his lack of emotion coincide with anything we know of?

As of this section, I can only attribute it to the mysterious ingestion of the fitviavi mold...What do you think? Do you by any chance remember the brief blurb about when and how DMZ was first synthesized, I thought there was a bit about why it was derived?

Did the intensity of that interfere with his emotions? Was he brought up to be just a tennis player (so a robot who just plays tennis very well) instead of a human being?

I thought the robot was in reference to Hal's inability to show emotion which renders him worse-off than John Wayne who has been described as stoic...Right? See, I would think he was brought up to be an intellect more so than a great tennis player, he was just going through the motions up until recently when he hit his stride.


message 28: by Ami (last edited Jan 24, 2015 10:22PM) (new)

Ami Linda wrote: "Nicola wrote: " but if it's clear that Orin was 7 at the time of his birth (which would make him closer to 6 for the conception?) then there is no doubt in my mind that he's not the father."

That ..."


Orin Fathering Mario
This book is peppered with characters who are physical anomalies...It's unfortunate, to think about, but a 6 year old child with sperm bearing capabilities of the Incandenza persuasion, is not completely far-fetched. We are after all, reading about addictions to drugs which do not exist, freakishly strong and agile wheelchair assassins who scale walls and have thus far wreaked havoc on society, blind tennis prodigies, just to name a few of the freakishly odd occurrences.


message 29: by Ami (last edited Feb 02, 2015 02:25PM) (new)

Ami Moms and C.T. at Himself's Funeral

Avril is found laughing harder of anyone at Himself's funeral due to a circling gull striking a white hit on the shoulder of C.T.'s blue blazer, and that when he opened his mouth in shock at the direct hit, a large blue-bodied fly flew right into his mouth and was hard to extract (910). This not only seemed like a purposeful implementation of "blue," but was Avril just delirious?

Pemulis and Hal

I disliked how these two didn't get to discuss anything while sitting in VR 5...I worried for them both.

As of page 916, I can't wait to find out what Pemulis has in store for E.T.A. as his final coup de gras!

Orin and Gately's Demise
Gately has lost his composure while watching the B.U. game as the announcers talk of an inspirational story about a home town boy who is one of the finest punt specialists in N.C.A.A. history being reminded of how things could have been(916).


message 30: by Kaycie (new)

Kaycie | 294 comments Ami's post about Mario's parentage reminded me...wasn't Mario extremely premature? As in delivered at 6mos? Orin could have been 7 at the time of Mario's conception...not an unheard of age for puberty.

Anyways, it is just a theory. I do believe people are meant to take their own interpretation from this book, and mine is that something has extraordinarily biased Orin against Mario, and this is the interpretation that fits best with my brain.


message 31: by Linda (new)

Linda | 1378 comments Ami wrote: "I thought the robot was in reference to Hal's inability to show emotion which renders him worse-off than John Wayne who has been described as stoic...Right? See, I would think he was brought up to be an intellect more so than a great tennis player, he was just going through the motions up until recently when he hit his stride."

Yes, I agree with your post. I meant the "robot" term to mean lack of emotion. Whether Hal was brought up to be a great tennis player, or an intellect, either one could be seen as Hal being brought up as a great "something", and emotions would have nothing to do with either. The emphasis would be on nurturing his abilities, not his interior well-being.


message 32: by Linda (new)

Linda | 1378 comments Ami wrote: "Orin Fathering Mario
This book is peppered with characters who are physical anomalies...It's unfortunate, to think about, but a 6 year old child with sperm bearing capabilities of the Incandenza persuasion, is not completely far-fetched."


Yes, there is still the possibility. Like you said, there are so many other instances of abnormalities in this book that are beyond the norm of actual occurrences in real life, that for Orin to be a possible biological father to Mario could be just another instance that for this book, would be the norm. If that makes sense. It makes sense in my head. :)


message 33: by Nicola (last edited Jan 26, 2015 01:35PM) (new)

Nicola | 522 comments Linda wrote: "Nicola wrote: "Remember during the Estrucheon Hal lost control of his facial features. It's the drugs"

Yes, but he's not on drugs anymore. During the game, he was."


I meant its ultimate cause was the drugs. Whether he's currently taking them or not. It's not 100% sure that he hasn't had some of those missing drugs at some point either.


message 34: by John (last edited Mar 16, 2015 07:02AM) (new)

John (johnred) | 364 comments Another great section! Things did seem to slow down a bit.I loved both Hal's and Gately's stories. Poor Tony's death was not easy to take...I really liked him and felt like he deserved more than just an off-hand mention of his fingers getting cut off. :( ...on the other hand, Lenz's end was very fitting.

HAL'S FIRST PERSON POV
There have been at least 4 passages in Hal's 1st person POV:

1. The year of Glad, page 1
2. Page 61, Hal describes his nightmare of a face in the floor
3. Page 127, Describing Lyle (we are not 100% sure this is Hal narrating, but it seems the only real possibility)
4. This most recent section with Stice getting stuck to the window

...maybe relevant to this discussion is the fact that pps. 61 and 127 are both examples of Hal displaying a rare heartfelt emotion.

UNRESOLVED PLOTLINES
It seems like I'm alone in this, but honestly at this point I still feel like things are more or less wrapping up well. All of the main characters are pretty much converging on the Master Cartridge, it seems. We don't know how Gately will join in, but we know he will -- I'm guessing through Joelle.

There are a few threads dangling though:

1. What happened to Kate Gompert?? She seemed doomed when we last left her.
2. What's up with Geoffery Day? He has researched the AFR, and he has had paranormal experiences which may or may not be a symptom of mental illness. Either way there is definitely more to him than we know at this point. This, however, is a pretty minor thread and really wouldn't bother me if it was left hanging.
3. We still don't know how the Wardine section fits into any of this

BOBBY C
We get to see Bobby C again in this section! Also, Gatley mentions something about C crewing with a "fag", which I can only assume is his "charming" way of referring to Poor Tony.

WAS HAL DOSED WITH DMZ?
This seems pretty likely, and would explain a lot in this section. I would also be willing to bet that this is what Pemulis was urgently trying to bring up in the V.R.5.

Also, what's with the Darkness? I noticed that he complained of having been "bitten" by something, and Hal saw a "bite" on his neck...in conjunction with the speculation of Hal being dosed, I wonder if Ortho was injected with something as he was stuck to the window? Maybe this would explain the fracas going on as Hal lay in the V.R.5.


message 35: by John (new)

John (johnred) | 364 comments Totally out of the blue, I was looking at FN 24 again, and has anybody noticed that Stokely "Dark Star" McNair -' who was mentioned by Poor Tony and is, IIRC, deceased -- was in one of JOI's films? It was "Accomplice!", from the Y.T.M.P. Very strange.


message 36: by Linda (new)

Linda | 1378 comments John wrote: "Totally out of the blue, I was looking at FN 24 again, and has anybody noticed that Stokely "Dark Star" McNair -' who was mentioned by Poor Tony and is, IIRC, deceased -- was in one of JOI's films?..."

Ah...interesting, John! No, I didn't notice that. I didn't go back and look through FN 24 after finishing the book, but now I can see how we would see a lot more pieces of the puzzle fit together.

Also, I don't remember the name Stokely McNair at the moment. Was he in the actual story besides just in the filmography footnote?


message 37: by John (new)

John (johnred) | 364 comments Linda wrote: "Also, I don't remember the name Stokely McNair at the moment. Was he in the actual story besides just in the filmography footnote? "

Poor Tony mentioned him several times, but he never actually appeared "on-camera", so to speak...He was one of the many people Tony had fallen out of favor with. At some point I'm pretty sure Tony said something about him no longer being alive.


message 38: by Ami (last edited Mar 16, 2015 01:43PM) (new)

Ami Linda wrote: "John wrote: "Totally out of the blue, I was looking at FN 24 again, and has anybody noticed that Stokely "Dark Star" McNair -' who was mentioned by Poor Tony and is, IIRC, deceased -- was in one of..."

Linda, Stokely "dark star" was the character Poor Tony referred to as having the "Virus" in his narrative. Poor Tony had nothing to do with his death as he (Stokely) passed in a Hospice.


message 39: by Ami (last edited Mar 16, 2015 02:29PM) (new)

Ami We still don't know how the Wardine section fits into any of this
She sure does, you may want to review her narrative again...It's there-I mentioned this in a previous thread.
(view spoiler)

You may want to focus on the commonality between her family and some of the other ones mentioned throughout the novel...Keeping in mind the Hamlet references, presence of male figure taking over as a father figure, questionable behavior of uncle with maternal figure, and of course, dysfunction. Some of the sections are included based on similarities alone surrounding either one dynamic, or a plethora, as I'm sure "you've" gathered, at this point.


message 40: by Ami (new)

Ami What happened to Kate Gompert?? She seemed doomed when we last left her.
Well, you said it..."She seemed doomed." I thought, from what I remember, Marathe talked her into going to the Antitois' to view the Entertainment when we left her...Didn't he?


message 41: by Linda (new)

Linda | 1378 comments Thanks Ami! I couldn't remember all the specifics, especially since my mind is no longer in IJ-land.


message 42: by Ami (last edited Mar 16, 2015 02:27PM) (new)

Ami Linda wrote: "Thanks Ami! I couldn't remember all the specifics, especially since my mind is no longer in IJ-land."

I only remember this because I had to go back and review after the "dark star" (or something similar) reference in Matty Pemulis' section...It triggered some recollection of the detail in Poor Tony's narrative, but there wasn't a commonality at all. It's all engrained, unfortunately. :P


message 43: by John (last edited Mar 16, 2015 03:46PM) (new)

John (johnred) | 364 comments Ami wrote: "Well, you said it..."She seemed doomed." I thought, from what I remember, Marathe talked her into going to the Antitois' to view the Entertainment when we left her...Didn't he?"

He had offered to show her the Entertainment, but then the scene cut off, I don't think we saw her answer? And then when we found Lenz and Poor Tony meeting their fates, there was no mention of a woman in the storeroom with them.

However, I guess Poor Tony showed us that DFW has no problem killing people off-camera, so I guess he could be just assuming we assume she's dead.

Ami wrote: "She sure does, you may want to review her narrative again...It's there-I mentioned this in a previous thread."

I will have to check that out! I do remember that Roy Tony was in her narrative, but he's a very minor character.


message 44: by John (last edited Mar 16, 2015 03:45PM) (new)

John (johnred) | 364 comments Hmm, OK -- reread the Wardine section -- so she's Clenette's half-sister, Clenette being the girl from Ennett House who works at the E.T.A. cafeteria.

So I guess that question's answered, although it raised another one: I noticed, at the end, Clenette says she's going to have a baby? That was in the Year of the Trial Sized Dove Bar, so the baby should be 2 or 3 years old by Y.D.A.U. Did we ever find out what happened with that? If she's in Ennett House then I guess the kid's probably in foster care.


message 45: by Ami (new)

Ami John wrote: "Hmm, OK -- reread the Wardine section -- so she's Clenette's half-sister, Clenette being the girl from Ennett House who works at the E.T.A. cafeteria.

So I guess that question's answered, although..."


There's the connection to the cartridges also...Well, the one's which end up at Ennett House.

I will have to check that out! I do remember that Roy Tony was in her narrative, but he's a very minor character.
Right, it makes him their uncle and another tie to Ennett House.

That was in the Year of the Trial Sized Dove Bar, so the baby should be 2 or 3 years old by Y.D.A.U.
Actually, wouldn't it make the kid 5 years old?

I just thought she miscarried along the way due to her extracurricular activities.

Cranial-facial person from W14
Keep reading....


message 46: by Nicola (new)

Nicola | 522 comments John wrote: Also, what's with the Darkness? I noticed that he complained of having been "bitten" by something, and Hal saw a "bite" on his neck...in conjunction with the speculation of Hal being dosed, I wonder if Ortho was injected with something as he was stuck to the window?"

I don't remember the 'bite'. Man, I'm rereading this atm but there is too much distracting me. I think I need to go through it with a fine toothed comb!


message 47: by Nicola (new)

Nicola | 522 comments Ami wrote: "What happened to Kate Gompert?? She seemed doomed when we last left her.
Well, you said it..."She seemed doomed." I thought, from what I remember, Marathe talked her into going to the Antitois' to..."


Yep :-) She wanted oblivion and I think that is exactly what she got. Her passion seemed to the switch which finally committed our wavering double/triple agent.


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