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Rachel Ray
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Rachel Ray: Week 1: Chapters I - V
Both the elder Mrs. Ray and the younger Mrs. Prime are widows and they now live together. It struck me as a bit unnatural and manufactured. But I guess it is because Trollope needs the three women to live together and interact. The tension between two sisters with different attitudes is interesting.
I understood Mrs. Prime’s problem to be more a question of impropriety and fear that her sister behaved scandalously. Rachel’s meetings with the young man came off to a bad start - seen from the outside it could look as if they were intimate and having clandestine meetings. It was off course a big misunderstanding and Rachel is absolutely virtuous. Thankfully her mother listens patiently.
Mod
I thought they came to live together for economical purpose. But I'm not sure if Mrs. Prime contributed much to the ecconomy of the Ray household.
Piyangie wrote: I thought they came to live together for economical purpose. But I'm not sure if Mrs. Prime contributed much to the economy of the Ray household.I believe that is what I understood also. Mrs. Prime was left better off than her mother. I believe Mrs Prime contributes "just enough" and she puts the rest in her Dorcas club so she can rule the roost there. I feel like they all live quite meagerly. Mrs Prime the most, drinking her horrible tea, and eating stale bread. It seems like Mrs Prime is trying to make a show of herself with her over the top piety and martyrdom. Also, with her need to control the Dorcas club and her family.
The Rey family is an interesting combination. The dominate one, the submissive one and then the somewhat defiant one that keeps the other two in a semi-middle ground. I do feel sorry for Rachel and Mrs. Rey being under the guise of Dorothea. Misguidedly, I think Dorothea believes she is doing what she thinks right for her relations, but she is misguided, and ruled also by control and power.
I'm curious as to why both the sister and the mother didn't consider Luke as an eligible suitor for Rachel.
They’ve both got it into their heads that young boys are just sheep in wolves clothing. Misguided by sermons? Both ladies seem to take the preachings as a whole and forget being human and strive for some unnatural perfection. And I think Trollope tells us Mr. Comfort also rather forgets that part in his sermons as well. As it is, I don’t know that there would be any man suitable for Rachel. Trollope tells us, they’ve both forgotten they were married, and that their husbands were also young boys once.
And some people, which it seems both Mrs. Prime and Mrs. Rey fit into the category of, believe their vicars to no end and rather just go off the deep end. Didn’t we learn that Mrs Rey’s new Vicar seems to just tolerate her due to that?
I think I am glad that Mrs. Prime did not have any children. Or maybe they would have softened her?
Was it the raven that Trollop kept saying Mrs Prime’s voice was when she found out about Rachel and Luke Rowan? That made me laugh.
I think Mr. Comfort is sensible and I’m glad Mrs. Rey went to him for advice. I get mad at Mrs. Prime, find it somewhat amusing, but it’s sad that others suffer so because of her. I try to understand where she’s coming from, even if it does seem mean and almost spiteful, but she has shortcomings as we all do. I am glad that we’ve got a full cast to balance her out so she’s not an absolute ruling tyrant all of the time.
I thought this was an interesting start. It really was lively, and we’ve learned a lot about the characters already. Of course I’m rooting for Rachel, but I also wish perhaps Mrs. Prime could be won over…perhaps a love interest for her that would open her eyes? I thought this a great beginning and really look forward to reading more and seeing what happens.
I do like how Trollope examines many of the characters and we see their good and bad. He's given quite a good overview for us already, even though not much has really happened yet.
Mod
I believe that is what I understoo..."
I practically shrunk when reading of Mrs. Prime's meager meal since she could afford better. Then I thought it might be her idea of pious living with little inclination to material comfort.
I love the whole bit about the Dorcas Society, which was a real thing in both Britain and America. There is a Wikipedia entry under "Dorcas Society" whose main mission was providing mended used clothing to the poor. Given the repulsive aspect of Dorothea Prime's religiosity, I think Rachel's characterization of the Dorcas gatherings as "those nasty rag meetings" is right on the money.
Charlotte wrote: "Both the elder Mrs. Ray and the younger Mrs. Prime are widows and they now live together. It struck me as a bit unnatural and manufactured. But I guess it is because Trollope needs the three women ..."It is more the fact that they both became widows (and then combined with cohabitaion, besides that).
The first five chapters have set up a very interesting situation for Mrs. Ray and her two daughters. Rachel and Dorothea have very different personalities but their age gap and their previous experiences have also played a part in the way they see the world. Trollope did not really give any detail about the circumstances surrounding the deaths of both Mrs Ray’s husband and, more particularly for me, Dorothea’s. The sudden death of a young man only just married seems to warrant no explanation, yet it must have shocked Dorothea profoundly.Rachel, on the other hand, is full of the joys of life and is bursting to experience them. Her idea that Luke Rowan could be ‘dangerous’ is such a shallow thought in her mind after her ‘arm in the sky’ experience, that it is dismissed to the back, behind all the positive thoughts she has about this young man.
Trollope describes Rowan as ’by no means a bad sort....one who had never wronged a woman’, not the worst man in Baslehurst, but he also gives us hints that he is not ‘devoid of that Byronic weakness.......conceited..... and sometimes affected....and he dabbled in romance.’ This is not a ringing endorsement of the man who the Rev. Comfort seems to believe is seeking Rachel as his wife.
Rachel has already said to her mother that she wishes to go to the party mainly because her sister wouldn’t want her to (can we believe her?) Her determination to go against her sister might seriously affect her judgement and become the most dangerous thing for Rachel in the future.
Good points Trev, especially Rachel wanting to go to the party just to go against her sister. I missed that, I’m going to have to reread it. It does all bring so many questions. Rachel had a good point, she was taught dancing in school. And how ironic those Dorcas meetings are a thinly disguised gossip society, no? But because Luke has had some romance can we hold that against him? Trollope only said “dabbled”. Rachel seems to have a good head on her shoulders and not be swayed by Luke to spite her sister, but who knows. Hopefully her mother can bring some sense of reason there?
It will be exciting to see what the dance brings. What good luck for Rachel arriving with the eminent Mrs Comfort especially after was it Mrs Tappit’s aversion to Rachel going to the party to begin with. Rachel’s Cinderella moment?
Mod
As to Luke, Trollope says "he is not bad sort" and that he "dabbled in romance". This may be an indication that he is an ordinary young man who likes to interest him in beautiful young ladies but doesn't do any wilful act to harm their characters.
Charlotte wrote: "Both the elder Mrs. Ray and the younger Mrs. Prime are widows and they now live together. It struck me as a bit unnatural and manufactured. But I guess it is because Trollope needs the three women ..."Mrs. Ray's docile attitude gives the situation a dose of realism, as well as a contemporary feel. It's an interesting dynamic, rife with tension.
Charlotte wrote: "I understood Mrs. Prime’s problem to be more a question of impropriety and fear that her sister behaved scandalously. Rachel’s meetings with the young man came off to a bad start - seen from the ou..."I agree, Charlottee. Mrs. Prime cares more for her pious existence than her sister's well-being. Trollope really broke the mold with Dorothea Prime. Her disposition sucks the air out of the room. I predict her undoing.
Jim wrote: "I love the whole bit about the Dorcas Society, which was a real thing in both Britain and America. There is a Wikipedia entry under "Dorcas Society" whose main mission was providing mended used clo..."Thank you for clearing this up. I thought Dorothea Prime's propensity for tattered clothing was all her own. Now I see its meaning, in accordance with the church.
Trev wrote: "The first five chapters have set up a very interesting situation for Mrs. Ray and her two daughters. Rachel and Dorothea have very different personalities but their age gap and their previous exper..."Trev, the similarities with the deaths went completely over my head. I guess the quaintness of Trollope's style dismissed any thoughts of wrongdoing. I thought these types of conspiracies only happen in Thomas Hardy novels! God, I hope things stay this pretty. All this incredulity has made me nervous, haha.
Luke seems a little manipulative to me, he knew she didn’t want him to follow her and insisted relying on her softer nature as a female to get his way. The same exact issue with calling her by her first name. I’m not sure I like him for her, the author is telling us that he is a good character but I also don’t like to have my mind made up for me. At the very least, he needs a lesson on humility, but then it was made clear he is a tad conceited. A woman’s reputation in that time should be always guarded by a man who truly has good intentions.
Finished these 5 chapters, I find that as usual Trollope is a real Master in depicting people and their whimsicalities. Some are more than full developed characters, sort of single sided portraits of strangeness. One for all, at least at the moment, Mrs. Prime.She is a sort of symbol of al narrow-minded women of XIX century England, thinking of suffering and well behavior.
Rachel is obviously the heroine of the novel – and therefore the one the Author loves and sides with. She is gentle but firm, as all “decorous” women of the time had to be.
On the other hand I don’t find Luke so manipulative: I suppose that was the strand way of more or less wealthy young men if they wanted to gain a girl, especially so guarded as Rachel
That mother and Daughter, both widowed, lived together, I think was quite a common thing for the time: and it was, as someone has said, a decision mainly on an economic base...
Mod
Luke Rowan or any young male for that matter is viewed as a deviant in the Ray household. I felt Trollope wanted to make him sound more rebellious and progressive, so he used words like "conceited" to stir the pot. In reality, he's just a normal, ambitious young person.
Mrs. Ray had been taught to view unmarried young men as wild beasts.
Didn’t Luke hold Rachel back in the churchyard when she told him she was going? That sounds more than a little Byronic, which according to Trollope is part of Mr. Rowan’s character. The arm in the sky became the arm that reached out for Rachel, and now she seems absorbed in this young man more than anything else. The way Luke said, ‘And now for Mr. Tappit’ sounded to me like he felt he had won one battle and was about to embark on another.
Shanelle wrote: "Luke seems a little manipulative to me, he knew she didn’t want him to follow her and insisted relying on her softer nature as a female to get his way. r ..." Exactly.
I'm wondering about Luke's intentions towards Rachel, too. He obviously isn't sure of his own feelings. He wanted to be with her, otherwise he wouldn't have gone after her. But, later when he's alone, his thoughts soon turn from Rachel to "other subjects" that seem equally important. He appears nonchalant about the whole thing.
Mod
I love the early description of Mrs. Ray. It’s so completely spot on. And I adore her and her daughter, Mrs. Prime (Isn’t Trollope a Devil with his names?) for the hours of entertainment they are sure to provide.
Mod
Mine too, Renee. I'm captured by his writing. His name choices reminded me of Charles Dickens. :) Mrs. Prime. Was Trollope thinking of the word "prim"?
I too read about Dorcas societies on Wikipedia. I like finding in the books I am reading these little bits of informations. I am not sure I like Luke, he could be more prudent and slow, he has gone far in only three meetings and I think that Rachel is feeling it, she is a little overwhelmed and embarassed at times, she is not able to handle the relationship.I wonder about Dorothea's marriage. She is still young, was she never in love with her husband? She is so little empathetic with Rachel and her first meeting with love.
Yes Piyangie I thought that too about Mrs Prime's name :-)) and also I thought funny to be' seeking advice form Mr Comfort!
Mod
Dorothea surprised me too. I gather she is still quite young. But I think her religious piety has made her stern and judgmental of human feelings such as love as sin and necessary evil.
Mod
Ha! I completely missed on Mr. Comfort! Thanks, Daniela, for bringing it up. :)
Mr. Comfort makes perfect sense.
Is anyone doing the audiobook version of this? I'm curious about how the narrator handles all these contrasting personalities, especially in the Ray household.
Daniela wrote: "I wonder about Dorothea's marriage. She is still young, was she never in love with her husband? She is so little empathetic with Rachel and her first meeting with love. "I wondered that too-is she making herself intentionally unattractive so that she never has to deal with another marriage proposal/husband?
This opening section brings up an issue that Trollope has dealt with in at least one other novel, which is how are young people ever expected to meet partners if any association with each other is considered improper? Mrs Prime and even Mrs Ray seem to think that the very act of standing with a young man is somehow wrong and a sign of moral compromise, and if she is not allowed to do that nor to go to a chaperoned party, how in the world is she going to find a husband? There is also no reasonable way for a young person to "check out" their prospective mate before deciding-where can they find some time to speak with each other at any length before having to sign up for life? I'm not surprised that Mr Rowan wants to go for walks with Rachel-he clearly finds her attractive, but is that enough to decide that someone will make a good wife?
Frances wrote: This opening section brings up an issue that Trollope has dealt with in at least one other novel, which is how are young people ever expected to meet partners if any association with each other is considered improper? Mrs Prime and even Mrs Ray seem to think that the very act of standing with a young man is somehow wrong and a sign of moral compromise, and if she is not allowed to do that nor to go to a chaperoned party, how in the world is she going to find a husband? I wondered the same thing myself. It was all quite strange...were they just going to keep her at home for all of her life? The two widows beliefs were so contrary... although I thought it was mostly Dorothea who decided on this slant of thinking and slowly convinced her mother of the same? Still... they're so preoccupied with keeping their standards of piety that they don't see the forest through the trees almost. I don't Dorothea even cared about Rachel as long as Rachel acted like a little saint. And I wonder if that was so Dorothea could look good o top of it?
There is also no reasonable way for a young person to "check out" their prospective mate before deciding-where can they find some time to speak with each other at any length before having to sign up for life? I'm not surprised that Mr Rowan wants to go for walks with Rachel-he clearly finds her attractive, but is that enough to decide that someone will make a good wife?
Although, in this time period, did people marry for love so much or for other reasons? A family match, or money, a good house hold, etc.
Frances wrote: Daniela wrote: "I wonder about Dorothea's marriage. She is still young, was she never in love with her husband? She is so little empathetic with Rachel and her first meeting with love. "I wondered that too-is she making herself intentionally unattractive so that she never has to deal with another marriage proposal/husband?
I'm just rereading some of the book...Dorothea taught herself that happiness was a sin. Her love is for Power.
Dorothea's husband left her some money at his death, her mother was not left well off.
...the people of Baslehurst and Cawston had declared how comfortable for Mrs. Ray would be this accession of wealth to the family. But Mrs. Ray had not become much the richer. Mrs. Prime did no doubt pay her fair quota towards the maintenance of the humble cottage at Bragg's End, for such was the name of the spot at which Mrs. Ray lived. But she did not do more than this."
I would assume this was also a way for Dorothea to exert her power over her Mother and Rachel.
Trollope says that Dorothea was young when married and her husband died after only a few months. Maybe she did not take it well? Trollope doesn't really tell us any of this, he just goes right in to tell us she thinks the way to heaven is built by being morose.
Is there a cause and effect because of the loss of her husband? Or did Dorothea, just become more of who she already was?
When Mr Ray died Trollope wrote:
Dorothea, was then more than nine years old, and as she took much after her father, being stern, sober, and steady, Mrs. Ray immediately married herself to her eldest child. Dorothea became the prop against which she would henceforth grow.
I got a bit behind with my reading this month so I’ve just read these chapters. I’m really enjoying the light tone here, Trollope is having fun with these characters. I loved the scene when the Tappitts were preparing the invites for the party - Augusta and her mother don’t really want Rachel there as they’ve earmarked Luke for Augusta, but pretend it is because she isn’t the right class to mix with the Rowan ladies. Luckily Cherry and Martha stand up for Rachel and win the day!
Love too the comments on the clergymen’s names above, and now we have Mr Prong! Prime and Prong, what a pair! He sounds pompous and full of his own piety, no surprise that Dorothea is impressed by him.
Looking forward to the next chapters, this is very readable.
Mod
Perhaps, as Brenda has observed, Dorothea's true motive for this strong opposition must be coming from her love to control and exercise power over her mother and sister.
Mod
I’m really enjoying the light tone here, Trollope is having fun with these characters. I loved the scene when the T..."
I too like the light tone, Pamela. It makes the reading quite easy unlike many other Victorian literature. I can almost feel here a "Jane Austenian" touch! :)
Is there a touch of ‘Sense and Sensibility’ about the story so far. Or is that nonsense?
Mod
Ha, ha Trev. 😊 I hope Luke won't turn out to be another Mr. Willoughby and breaks Rachel's heart like Marianne's because I see no Colonel Brandon in view. 😊
I’m only just starting this today - rather late in the month, but the discussion made me want to try this book.
Hi Trisha! It didn’t take me long to get hooked. Glad you are joining. ☺️
Mod
It's not late to join us; we've covered only two segments so far. It's fairly a short book and we are proceeding quite slow. Pleased to have you in. Looking forward to your thoughts. :)
Brian wrote: "Mrs. Ray had been taught to view unmarried young men as wild beasts."LOL!!! I do agree. Wolves
Starting late, but loving this so far. Mrs. Prime is sour enough to suck all the joy out of life. Rachel and their mother will be fortunate if she moves out.
Theresa wrote: "Starting late, but loving this so far. Mrs. Prime is sour enough to suck all the joy out of life. Rachel and their mother will be fortunate if she moves ouFor a serene, homely book, he methodically keeps his foot on the gas. Theresa, you're gonna love it.
Mod
We proceed slow, Teresa, so you're not late. Happy to hear that you are enjoying it. And as Daniel said, you are in for a pleasant ride! :)
Chapter 1
We are introduced at length to the Ray family. Mr. Ray, having been deceased for some years, there is only the mother, Mrs. Ray, the elder daughter, Dorothea Ray (now Mrs. Prime), and the younger daughter, Rachel Ray. Mrs. Ray is soft and submissive and seems to be dominated by her elder daughter who is "black, stiff and stern". Having been widowed very young and returned to her mother, Mrs. Prime has acquired the role of authority in the Ray household and dictates the mother and the younger sister as a true tyrant. Rachel Ray sounds quite a contrast to both of them. She is neither soft, nor stern, but who has enough spirit in her if she is tested.
What did you think of the Ray family?
Chapters 2 and 3
Rachel Ray has interested a young man from the local brewery named Luke Rowan. Mrs. Prime is quite opposed to any young man interesting in Rachel. She thinks it is quite evil to attract the attention of young men. Coming from a woman who herself was married, her ideas on the subject is hypocritical.
Luke Rowan, the young man from the brewery is a cousin to the Tippit family who owns the brewery. And Mrs. Tippit, as a mother has her daughters to consider. As a prudent Victorian mother, she plans that Luke must marry one of her daughters, and she chooses her second daughter, Miss Augusta Tippit as the most eligible. As such, Mrs. Tippit is quite uncomfortable with Rachel Ray being in the company of Luke.
Chapter 4
Having spotted Rachel alone in the company of Luke Rowan, Mrs. Prime declares war. :) She is certain that only sin and shame can come out of such conduct and is determined that their mother should impose more restrictions on Rachel's outings. Rachel is quite indignant about being accused of any improper conduct and defends herself severely. It was only a chance meeting with Luke Rowan and she greatly resents her elder sister's interpretation that they have met because of a previous arrangement.
The chapter shows the spirit of both sisters. Mrs. Prime is determined to play the role of a tyrant. Why she is so set on her mind against young men, especially of Luke Rowen is puzzling. We haven't heard anything against Mr. Rowan yet.
I'm curious as to why both the sister and the mother didn't consider Luke as an eligible suitor for Rachel.
Chapter 5
Mrs. Tappit is giving a party in the brewery and is considering her guest list. Her daughters, Cherry and Martha inform her that they have already asked Rachel to come which displeases her, for she considers Rachel as a possible rival for her daughters' prospects. However, she sends a formal invitation to Rachel. This invitation causes much unease at Bragg's End. Mrs. Ray is uncertain as to how to act. Rachel wants to go and Dorothea Prime will again declare war. So she seeks advice from Mr. Comfort who is her clergyman and friend. Mr. Comfort, quite prudently, advises Mrs. Ray to allow Rachel to attend the party and announces that her daughter, Mrs. Butler, would take Rachel in her carriage. Dorothea is furious, but there is little she can do when Mr. Comfort has spoken.
An interesting point I noted here was that it is Mr. Comfort who thinks of Rachel's marriage prospects and not Mrs. Ray. :)
The segment is full of a promising beginning. How did you all like it so far? Please share your thoughts freely but within the chapters set out above.