The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion
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The Haunted Hotel
Wilkie Collins Collection
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The Haunted Hotel - Part 2 - Chapters V thru XII
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Is anyone else suspscious of Lord Montbarry's death? It almost seems a bit too conveient the fact that two different doctors both highly estemmed in thier carerer confimed the fact that he died of natural causes. It is kind of like when a person has too much of an air tight allaie it can make them appear as guilty as someone who has no allibie.
I still cannot figure out how they would have trciekd the doctors if either the Countess or the Baron (or both togehter) were respsobile for his death, but the Baron's chemeistry experiements in the vaults are rather ominous.
7. What do you think about Henry and the old nurse investing in the hotel?
I had started to become a bit mistrustful of Henry and even for a moment wondered if he could have been involved in this brother's death, though I cannot see how, but he does seem to stand to gain from it.
For one thing he seems to beleive that with his brother dead it will improve his efforts to win Agnes over and he had becoeme more forceful in his pursuit of her.
As well now he is making a profit from his brother's death in a way via his invesiement within the hotel.
A note on the nurse, I do not feel like looking up the exzact passage right now, but she was desribed as looking as if she should have been a man (or something siillar to that). I have notcied in other books by Collins he will describe women as being mannish, or mascuiline, or give them what he perseivies as masculine traits. Most paritricaully in "The Woman in White" Marian was said to have a mind like man's and I beleive she was also deseribed has having a somewhat masucline apperiance.
2. Is Ferrari missing or dead?
I suspect he might still be alive, and that indeed we may very will see him make another apperacence within the story.
4. What other options, besides marriage or becoming a governess, does Agnes have in order to live a protected life?
I am unclear on what Agnes present status was, though it does seem to me that her becoming a governess was not done out of finical need. I did not feel as if she had to choose between being a governess or being married, and it seemed as if she was capable of living independently. Rather he becoming a governess seemed to be more for the sake of her peace of mind to distract her from the grief she felt over Lord Montbarry's death. She wanted to be around the children and family to make herself happy.
1. I suspect the Baron is a bad influence. I don't know much about him at this point, but he seems shady.2. Is Ferrari missing or dead?
I'm leaning toward dead. Leaving behind his possessions isn't a good sign. I'm not sure who would have killed him though. Everyone around him seems to have been a legitimate suspect.
3. Mr. Troy, the lawyer, speaks about Mrs. Ferrari as if she is not present in the room. What can you conclude about the differences between social levels?
She would have been considered lower class, while he would be upper class. In the stratified society that existed at the time, it is unlikely that he would give her presence any importance.
4. What do you think about the following quote. "I am very unhappy, and very unreasonable but I am only a woman and you must not expect too much from me." (Agnes, Chapter 7). Do you think this is how Collins views women?
I'm not sure how Collins felt, but I know it made me cringe.
5. The description of the Countess in Chapter 10 seems to resemble a skeleton. Do you find this an effective device or over dramatic? Why?
I thought it was overdramatic. I find the idea that bad people should look bad to be rather silly.
6. What other options, besides marriage or becoming a governess, does Agnes have in order to live a protected life?
I'm not sure that there were any other options in that era. That's depressing. I'm glad I wasn't born back then. It did depend on the finances of the family though, and she didn't seem to be poor.
7. What do you think about Henry and the old nurse investing in the hotel?
This made me suspicious of Henry. He seems to be coming and going a lot, but I can't remember where he is supposed to have been.
Other thoughts: I really don't like any of the characters, and the only one who I'm not suspicious of is Mrs. Ferrari, and that's because I can't come up with any motives for wrongdoing. Everyone else seems to rub me the wrong way. I'm not entirely certain that was the intent of the author, but maybe it was.
I also think Montbarry's death is suspicious, although I can't decide if it was the Countess or Baron who would have poisoned him. They both had means and opportunity. I'd lean toward the Baron just because he is the one doing the chemistry experiments.
Mod
I agree Lord Montbarry's death is suspicious. Re becoming a governess, I used protected in the same sense Henry did - being protected from the Countess.
Mod
2. Is Ferrari missing or dead?
I'm leaning toward dead. Leaving behind his possessions i..."
Anne, Collins is actually known for his strong female characters and for writing about things he disliked in society. I expect the quote about being a woman was a nod in this direction.
Victorian Web says: 'Collins's heroines set new standards for the literary depiction of women and their problems. Marion Halcombe is fully independent of men, and Laura Fairlie in The Woman in White functions well at several levels. That Collins's females violated stereotype is but another indication how carefully he observed women and how he attempted to represent them as they really were.'
I like Troy's comment to little Mrs Ferrari who 'was the exact opposite of a commonplace man': 'If you had been a man, you would have made a good lawyer—you would have taken juries by the scruff of their necks.'!There is a lot of class snobbery in Collins which reflects the hymn verse
The rich man in his castle
The poor man at his gate
God made them high or lowly
And ordered their estate.
God also made men and women very different and not on a par with men according to the Victorians. They were Angels on the Hearth:
http://www.victorianweb.org/gender/mo...
This view of Agnes as seen by Henry is typical of how an 'angelic' woman was perceived:
'There, in the corner, was her chair, with her embroidery on the work-table by its side. On the little easel near the window was her last drawing, not quite finished yet. The book she had been reading lay on the sofa, with her tiny pencil-case in it to mark the place at which she had left off.'
Like any author, Collins was a product of his time and no matter how he fought against stereotyping, the views of his ere wouldbe sure to come through.
Deborah wrote: "I agree Lord Montbarry's death is suspicious. Re becoming a governess, I used protected in the same sense Henry did - being protected from the Countess. "I am not so sure that she needs protection from the Countess for though she may not intend it or understand it it seems to me that Agnes has some power over the Countess and the Countess is clearly frightened of Agnes. I do not perceive the Countess as being a threat against Agnes.
And at this point I am not so sure marriage to Henry would provide much protection as I am rather mistrustful of him at the moment.
Anne wrote: "What do you think about the following quote. "I am very unhappy, and very unreasonable but I am only a woman and you must not expect too much from me." (Agnes, Chapter 7). Do you think this is how Collins views women?..."Having read "The Woman in White," it's obvious that Collins was capable of writing about much stronger and more unconventional figures than Agnes. Possibly he was pandering to his audience by making her a standard heroine of the time; but he's also making it clear that she is in no way responsible for any dreadful events that might follow. She is simply a pawn.
I'm with Anne in finding it hard to like any of the characters. Maybe their chief purpose is to serve the plot. So far, this book feels more like a pot-boiler than a fully-former novel.
I see it as a pot boiler too Emma and towards the end the writing seems hasty as if Collins wanted to finish it and get paid!
Madge wrote: "I see it as a pot boiler too Emma and towards the end the writing seems hasty as if Collins wanted to finish it and get paid!"I agree. Not the best example of Collins' work. But I remember reading Somerset Maugham's The Magician, which was really kind of awful, and thinking that even the great ones can have flaws :)
I think it was the Baron who poisoned Lord Montbarry as well. I don't think that the Countess did it.As for Agnes, I find her annoying. I don't know why. She isn't as strong as Collins' other female characters, but it goes deeper than that. Perhaps because she is still in love with a man who disgarded her? But that happens to the best of us. That she is willing to work as a governess when she obviously holds a much higher position in society? No, she enjoys the children, and better than being alone. Hopefully in the coming chapters I'll be able to pinpoint why she annoys me so much.
I like that Agnes' maid invests in the hotel because she wants more of a return on her investment. Now, there's a woman before her time. :-)
Lynnm wrote: "I think it was the Baron who poisoned Lord Montbarry as well. I don't think that the Countess did it.As for Agnes, I find her annoying. I don't know why. She isn't as strong as Collins' other ..."
I do not see Agnes as not being as strong as the Countess, I just see her as having her own sort of strength.
It is true she is more conventional than the countess, and she is the "Good girl" But unlike some Victorian heroines she does not strike me as being frail, delicate, or all together passive.
While it can be irksome her continuing her love and loyalty to a man who had jilted her, she still strikes me as a woman who is determined, knows her own mind, and can be strong willed.
She holds her own against Henry's attempts to pursue her, and I imagine even for a woman who is of high social rank and may not need the money I don't think it was easy to be an unwed woman at that time.
And in a way I respected her choice of becoming a governess because she was doing it for herself, not because he had to do it, and she was doing it regardless of what anyone might think of someone of her social standing becoming a governess.
Mod
As for the Countess, she is clearly falling deeper into whatever despair has her in its grip-whether the marriage was a ploy orchestrated by the Baron to acquire the insurance money and she went along with it, or whether she is the instigator of the plot is not clear to me.
Finally, I agree that the speculation in the Palace Hotel is an interesting twist-looking forward to see where that leads!
Silver wrote: "Lynnm wrote: "I think it was the Baron who poisoned Lord Montbarry as well. I don't think that the Countess did it.As for Agnes, I find her annoying. I don't know why. She isn't as strong as C..."
Good points, Silver.
What I meant though about Agnes not being as strong as Collins' other female characters, I meant the female characters in his other novels that I've read. I don't think of the Countess as a strong woman...strange, bizarre, odd, but not strong. :-)
Mod
Lynnm wrote: "Silver wrote: "Lynnm wrote: "I think it was the Baron who poisoned Lord Montbarry as well. I don't think that the Countess did it.As for Agnes, I find her annoying. I don't know why. She isn't..."
Sorry I misread that,yes that is true Agnes is not as strong as some of Collin's other characters.
2. Is Ferrari missing or dead? I think Ferrari is just missing. It's too obvious for him to be dead and it would be a rather high body count in such a short story.
3. Mr. Troy, the lawyer, speaks about Mrs. Ferrari as if she is not present in the room. What can you conclude about the differences between social levels?
I didn't actually think of this as social levels, although that does really make sense. I just thought his behavior had more to do with his dislike.
4. What do you think about the following quote. "I am very unhappy, and very unreasonable but I am only a woman and you must not expect too much from me." (Agnes, Chapter 7). Do you think this is how Collins views women?
I don't know. It would be odd to state it this way if he actually views women like that. He would feel it was unnecessary to say it, I would think. If that's your opinion, it will come out in the character development.
6. What other options, besides marriage or becoming a governess, does Agnes have in order to live a protected life?
I think becoming a governess really was a wonderful option for Agnes. She was near people she loved and she would be useful rather than sitting idly by.
7. What do you think about Henry and the old nurse investing in the hotel?
I didn't find this odd on Henry's part at all. It was a practical investment in something that his brother may have loved. Two birds, one stone. Very practical. I thought the nurse's response was really quite funny. It seemed like she didn't really want the money though, yet she then invested it. What purpose would that serve?
Mod
I think Ferrari is just missing. It's too obvious for him to be dead and it would be a rather high body count in such a short story.
3. Mr. Troy, the lawyer, spea..."
7. I don't think the nurse had a choice at accepting the legacy. Plus that was considered a very large amount of money.
4. What do you think about the following quote. "I am very unhappy, and very unreasonable but I am only a woman and you must not expect too much from me." (Agnes, Chapter 7). Do you think this is how Collins views women?I need to look back and check on the context of this. Marion Halcombe in The Woman in White makes similar comments throughout the novel, but in most cases she is either being sarcastic, ironic or simply exasperated with the behaviour of typical female contemporaries.
I agree with previous comments, though, that despite her many Victorian stereotypical womanly virtues, Agnes is not a fragile type.
As I mentioned in my post #7, Collins was a product of his time, seeing women as Angels on the Hearth but the strong women in his novels imply that he was a Social Darwinist who also thought they could 'evolve' into something better!
In Part 2 mention is made of two new inventions which became popular in Victorian times.Henry encloses a photograph in a letter to Agnes. This would have been a daguerrotype and studios for taking these early photographs were set up soon after its invention in 1839:
http://www.getty.edu/art/gettyguide/v...
Mod
...The second invention mentioned was a watch. Although personal timepieces had been around since Elizabethan times and wealthy people had worn pocket watches from the 1770s, it was Queen Victoria who popularised them after she bought one from a Parisian watchmaker at the Great Exhibition in Crystal Palace in 1851, where several manufacturers displayed them for sale to the public. Prince Albert is credited with inventing the small chain which affixes a pocket watch to a waistcoat/jacket and it is still known as the Prince Albert Chain. Pocket watches were also issued to key railway personnel after the introduction of railway timetables in 1863 when accurate timekeeping ecame essential.http://forums.watchuseek.com/f2/histo...
Mod
Thanks. Such titbits enhance my own reading so I like to pass them on....And somewhere dentures were referred to so folks may like to look at some rather gruesome examples of Victorian 'false teeth'!
http://www.katetattersall.com/?p=1851
Silver wrote: "Is anyone else suspscious of Lord Montbarry's death? It almost seems a bit too conveient the fact that two different doctors both highly estemmed in thier carerer confimed the fact that he died of ..."I had started to become a bit mistrustful of Henry and even for a moment wondered if he could have been involved in this brother's death, though I cannot see how, but he does seem to stand to gain from it.
Henry is a little seedy to me. For one thing, in part II he seemed ignorant to the fact Lord M. had an insurance policy worth 10,000 pounds...In chapter VI, Henry never thought of his brother's life insurance, but in chapter III he announced My brother has insured his life for ten thousand pounds; and he has settled the whole of it on the Countess, in the event of his death after the Lawyer announced four hundred a year was all Lord M. could leave the Countess.
Lynnm wrote: "I think it was the Baron who poisoned Lord Montbarry as well. I don't think that the Countess did it.As for Agnes, I find her annoying. I don't know why. She isn't as strong as Collins' other ..."
Lynnm wrote: "I think it was the Baron who poisoned Lord Montbarry as well. I don't think that the Countess did it.
As for Agnes, I find her annoying. I don't know why. She isn't as strong as Collins' other ..."
As for Agnes, I find her annoying. I don't know why. She isn't as strong as Collins' other female characters, but it goes deeper than that.
This made me laugh! She's driving me bats as well! I find every time I encounter Agnes, she's verklempt over something or another...Always put out. It's funny because in spite of her being overwrought with emotion in private, in public she's a pillar of strength (her meeting the Countess for the first time), and she's such a source of strength to her employees-Everybody is always coming to her for some sort of support.
Deborah wrote: "If you've read ahead or finished the book, please be sensitive of spoilers.1. Ferrari mentions in one letter he likes the Countess. Yet in a later letter, his opinion of her has changed. He associates this change with the Baron joining them. What influence does the Baton have over the Countess?
I don't know. For some reason, I think the Countess has been very misunderstood and she's going to come out of this on the other side of the spectrum. There's speculation he may not even be her real brother, so I think he's blackmailing her over something from her "supposed" sordid past...That's his influence, he's blackmailing her?
2. Is Ferrari missing or dead?
Oh, he is missing for sure...I think he's going to come out of the woodwork again. I trust a woman's intuition over a man's facts "any day."
3. Mr. Troy, the lawyer, speaks about Mrs. Ferrari as if she is not present in the room. What can you conclude about the differences between social levels?
Interesting you brought this line up because, I too, caught it while reading. Collins does a great job of translating societal class structure and how one looks down upon the other in his writing. Troy, I felt, didn't even really give Mrs. Ferrari the time of day, much less the respect for a human being. When he didi speak to her, he was very condescending...Talking down to her and having a sarcastic tone.
4. What do you think about the following quote. "I am very unhappy, and very unreasonable but I am only a woman and you must not expect too much from me." (Agnes, Chapter 7). Do you think this is how Collins views women?
I highlighted this too...Again with the translating of not only social classes, but the position of women, Collins pays great detail to this. I don't know too much about Collins and I'm not sure he shares society's view of women, I think he's great at depicting it. I would think by Agnes' remark, society has a rather feeble image of women.
5. The description of the Countess in Chapter 10 seems to resemble a skeleton. Do you find this an effective device or over dramatic? Why?
No more skeletal than Lord M, in chapter 5. I think the Baron is exposing them to something while he's tinkering with his chemistry set down in the tunnels. It's effective, but Collins' flare for the dramatic, at times, feels over done rendering the scene less credible and hokey.
Mod
Madge wrote: "Thanks. Such titbits enhance my own reading so I like to pass them on....And somewhere dentures were referred to so folks may like to look at some rather gruesome examples of Victorian 'false tee..."
Oh my, those look painful.
Madge wrote: "In Part 2 mention is made of two new inventions which became popular in Victorian times.Henry encloses a photograph in a letter to Agnes. This would have been a daguerrotype and studios for takin..."
Yes, I remember reading about these in The House of the Seven Gables... mentioned quite a few times, in fact, one of the main characters was a daguerreotypist.
Deborah wrote: "Ami, Collins is definitely being melodramatic with this story. He is known for his sensational novels which tend towards melodrama. It may feel more melodramatic to us than to the Victorians."Yes, Madge also mentioned he was very well known in the theater world, writing plays with Dickens, if I"m recall correctly.
Yes, Collins wrote plays for Dickens' theatre company and they both acted in them. Towards the end of the novel there are a lot of references to writing and staging playsThis novel isn't classed as a melodrama, it comes into the Sensation Novel category which was initiated by Collins, who was dubbed 'King of Sensation':
http://www.victorianweb.org/genre/sen...
1. Ferrari mentions in one letter he likes the Countess. Yet in a later letter, his opinion of her has changed. He associates this change with the Baron joining them. What influence does the Baton have over the Countess?The Countess comes to us first with her visit to the Doctor to question her own sanity. She feels compelled to marry Lord M, while it does not seem that is entirely her own wish. I think the true villain is sure to be the baron.
2. Is Ferrari missing or dead?
Just missing. He is going to have the key to this puzzle when he is found and tie up some of the dangling ends that can never be tied up by someone who was not on the scene.
3. Mr. Troy, the lawyer, speaks about Mrs. Ferrari as if she is not present in the room. What can you conclude about the differences between social levels?
In a society like theirs, with strict rules of conduct, it is not surprising that Troy would be almost disdainful of Emily. I think he has to remind himself that he cannot be seen to take her seriously. She is doubly unreliable to him...a lower class of society and a woman!
4. What do you think about the following quote. "I am very unhappy, and very unreasonable but I am only a woman and you must not expect too much from me." (Agnes, Chapter 7). Do you think this is how Collins views women?
I do not consider this to be Collins view of women at all, but his reflection on the common view of the times. It was more what women were supposed to be than what they were known to be. Agnes is a troubling character for me. She is fraught with dichotomy. Strength and weakness, submission and independence, even she seems unsure of who she is.
5. The description of the Countess in Chapter 10 seems to resemble a skeleton. Do you find this an effective device or over dramatic? Why?
I wonder if Collins is not setting the stage for her to fall ill as well. She seems extremely fearful of something and sure that Agnes is going to be her undoing in some way. She would seem to have the upper hand, but one cannot help thinking that her troubled mind is an ominous portent of things to come.
6. What other options, besides marriage or becoming a governess, does Agnes have in order to live a protected life?
Agnes seems to have options, which most women of her time may not have had. She does not seem to think of marriage as necessary and her reasons for becoming a governess have more to do with companionship and belonging than with protection in my view. Were she anxious to be "protected", she would readily accept Henry's overtures. Henry is an enigma to me at this point. I cannot decide if he is to be a hero or a villain himself. I do not think he is in collusion with the Countess and Baron, but he may be after his own self interests, regardless of moral constraints.
7. What do you think about Henry and the old nurse investing in the hotel?
I see nothing wrong in it. It is probably more a way to keep the palace viable in the story. Lord M was only renting and for a limited time at the outset, so Henry is not taking anything from Lord M in investing here and could have done so had the Lord remained alive. The fact that the last line of this section assures us Agnes will go to the hotel herself is intriguing. What ever could lure a woman who wishes to be "protected" from the memories and the Countess to make that particular journey?
As someone else noted, the old nurse is a woman ahead of her time. Investing at a higher rate and gambling her windfall! She'd be a day-trader in today's society.
Mod
Re 4. Perhaps the conflicting aspects of Agnes' personality is due to her following society rules, yet trying to control her own destiny. If you are making life choices than are different than the normal, it can create conflict within yourself.
The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910
Books mentioned in this topic
The House of the Seven Gables (other topics)The Woman in White (other topics)
The Magician (other topics)
In this segment, we get a glimpse of the palace which will become the hotel. We also learn that the Countess believes her strong feelings and reactions to Agnes are due to premonition.
Below are some discussion questions. These are meant to get our thoughts started; however, feel free to discuss the book beyond these questions.
1. Ferrari mentions in one letter he likes the Countess. Yet in a later letter, his opinion of her has changed. He associates this change with the Baron joining them. What influence does the Baton have over the Countess?
2. Is Ferrari missing or dead?
3. Mr. Troy, the lawyer, speaks about Mrs. Ferrari as if she is not present in the room. What can you conclude about the differences between social levels?
4. What do you think about the following quote. "I am very unhappy, and very unreasonable but I am only a woman and you must not expect too much from me." (Agnes, Chapter 7). Do you think this is how Collins views women?
5. The description of the Countess in Chapter 10 seems to resemble a skeleton. Do you find this an effective device or over dramatic? Why?
6. What other options, besides marriage or becoming a governess, does Agnes have in order to live a protected life?
7. What do you think about Henry and the old nurse investing in the hotel?