Reading the Detectives discussion
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What mysteries are you reading at the moment? (2021)
I have and thought it was an average read. Maybe a bit more complicated than the first book.
Colin wrote: "Thom, on the contrary, I like GAD very much, just not poorly written GAD and that book is poor indeed. If someone wants to go ahead and read it, then they should do so. However, when someone asks ..."
The problem here is that it's your subjective opinion - not fact. And as much as I do try to remain objective, so are mine. Just because you or I may see it one way, others may not. Which is why I will never tell another person not to read something. I might say I didn't care for it for X amount of reasons, but that's about it. And I rarely rate a book low based on my lack of personal enjoyment of it.
As I said before, many enjoyed this first book. It's always best for a reader to decide for themselves. I am always aware that any writer's style is not for everyone. Look how divided some where about the novel the group is reading by Iain Pears - An Instance of the Fingerpost. Pears is not my cuppa tea but he is for many.
As to GAD, most of your ratings suggest you are at best mild about them, and either way that's your prerogative.
Susan wrote: "Personally, I always like to start a series with the first novel. With Marsh, I do think she is quite inconsistent and variable. I liked the early books more though."Isn't interesting how different we all see these things? I like to read in order as well, but back in the day they didn't write these as series per se so they can be read in any order more or less. The whole of Man Lay Dead may not be perfect, but I enjoy seeing how a writer progresses when it comes to content and style, as well as characters.
It is not at all unusual for an author to get better/change their style after the first book(s), and when recommending an author to someone you think will appreciate them, to warn them that the first books are 'different', and that your recommendation basically starts with book X. Terry Pratchett novices are almost always recommended to start with a later book than the earliest Discworld ones, he having reached his best around the middle.
If I were to recommend Reginald Hill (who unfortunately is not a Golden Age writer), I would suggest that the reader starts with either A Killing Kindness, number 6 in the Dalziel and Pascoe series, or number 8 Exit Lines, and read on from there, going back to read the earlier ones later. Read the earlier ones first (Pratchett or Hill) and you could be put off reading the rest.
@Rosina:Totally agree - writers do progress. And I also agree that it can be helpful to say as much when it comes to later books being different. But then they often are.
But it's remains subjective: When it comes to March, Susan has said she prefers the earlier ones, Colin prefers the later ones. I have no preference. Both Susan and Colin exhibit good taste when it comes to reading material. I believe I have it as well. And despite our divergent perspectives, we can all be right.
At the end of the day, I feel it best to be honest in our assessments, but also to remain aware that our liking or disliking of a work often doesn't mean it is bad. More often than not it means the work isn't for us.
Mod
Susan wrote: "Reading is a very personal thing. I am happy enough to say if I think a book isn't great, even if it's my own opinion. I'm not sure I exhibit any good taste with books though, I just read what I like!"I agree with you. Reading is very much a personal thing. If we all felt the same way about books there would be very little choice. As it is we are all entitled to our own opinion. Thank goodness
I certainly agree that our personal preferences (and/or prejudices) are very much in play when it comes to delivering our assessment of any book, or any work of art for that matter. That said, I'm not altoghter comfortable with the idea of everything being entirely subjective, that there's no such thing as, for example, an objectively bad book. That makes it almost impossible to establish any standard of artistic merit or worth. I mean I could see one arguing over what the criteria defining this ought to be, or how those criteria ought to be applied, but not denying their existence. Thom, I'm curious. What makes you think I'm "mild" on GAD? It's a staple of my reading diet and has remained so for as long as I can remember, and I have coutless heaving shelves stuffed with GAD books to prove it. Is it because I rate a lot of stuff with 3 stars? I do that because a lot of my reading material is something I have enjoyed but which has some weaknesses too. I consider 3 stars a positive rating - 4 needs to be very impressive indeed, and surely 5 is for the absolure cream?
The truth is I dislike star rating systems in general and tend to avoid using them where possible. On my movie blog, for example, I never rate a film with stars or numbers.
My star markings are mainly subjective - Goodreads itself shows three stars to be "I liked it" not "Moderately well written with realistic characters ..." But I agree that some books are just badly written, or desperately in need of editing or proof reading, or just fact checking, and I'll sometimes not a star off, for errors. The character in one book who disguised herself for a heist by pulling a black baklava over her head sticks in the mind - as the baklava would have stuck in her hair.
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Colin wrote: "I certainly agree that our personal preferences (and/or prejudices) are very much in play when it comes to delivering our assessment of any book, or any work of art for that matter. That said, I'm ..."Colin: Largely because most of them you rate 3 stars. That normally indicates that people are more or less mild about them/felt they were good but not great.
Colin wrote: "I certainly agree that our personal preferences (and/or prejudices) are very much in play when it comes to delivering our assessment of any book, or any work of art for that matter. That said, I'm ..."Rosina wrote: "My star markings are mainly subjective - Goodreads itself shows three stars to be "I liked it" not "Moderately well written with realistic characters ..."
But I agree that some books are just bad..."
ROSINA: Based on that criterion, I agree. Too many mistakes suggest a lack of diligence and/or sloppy writing.
COLIN: It IS impossible to establish a standard. Who's standard? Yours? Mine? Other people's? Why do you think reviews for nearly every book are all over the map? Most reviews are based on how a book made the reader feel, not how it was written. That IS subjective.
Example: Unless of course you are assuming that your views are superior to those of others (not saying you do), how would you otherwise explain the near 4/5 rating on here and elsewhere - and the largely positive reviews for A Man Lay Dead?
Likewise when I read something that doesn't connect, I may not understand why it's so popular or so highly regarded (a good example is Christie's Roger Ackroyd. Well written, but hardly her best. Mostly it's the ending that makes people sit up and howl. But from MY perspective, overall it's a fairly tame affair - no match for many of her later books). But I don't think people have bad taste for loving it.
Many people seem to base their assessments on how a book ends and if it disappoints rank it one star. I DO however believe that's nuts. A book cannot be good or bad based on a small portion. I might say that an ending ran out of steam a knock one star off, but I'd never rank it one star only.
Susan wrote: "Rating books differently can be contentious. As Jill says, though, we all have the right to our opinions. Even if we don't all agree, we do all share our love of reading and that's what is important."Or at least they can be head scratching.
Certainly it's everyone's own business to do their own thing. And as with movies and music, reading is highly subjective to taste.
My squawk with all this is that most seem not to recognize this. I also find it odd that someone might say "this book was fabulous" then rank it 2.5/5 - how fabulous can it be?
Being a writer I tend to read differently (have discussed this in writer's circles a lot - many of us do) and also to review from perhaps a more fair-minded and objective POV (at least I make the effort - not sure I always keep to this).
But I do know first hand how hard it can be at times to put words together in the best way possible, and how hard it is to write fiction (and even non-fiction) in a way that it might appeal to as many as possible.
I admire and respect most writers, even when what they write doesn't appeal to be personally.
Mod
Please can we now move on from discussion of A Man Lay Dead, star ratings and subjectivity/objectivity, as the discussion is getting somewhat heated.
I posted a message about this earlier, but will repeat now, the rules of this group, as clearly stated when members join, are to be polite and friendly. Please can everyone bear this in mind when posting, as otherwise posts which cause upset may have to be removed.
Please do not reply to this post. Let's move on.
It's merely a discussion. I personally am not heated. But as it appears you are...
Thom wrote: "how would you otherwise explain the near 4/5 rating on here and elsewhere - and the largely positive reviews for A Man Lay Dead?..."To be honest, I give little credence to the site ratings of anything, I need to know something about the wider tastes of someone and where they are coming from before I put much faith in their views. I need some context.
Anyway, this all grew out of someone asking if A Man Lay Dead was a good intro to Marsh. I said no becuase I think it's very poor, and a significant number of GAD bloggers, critics and the like will concur. I suggested reading one of her far better books as a primer, in the same way I wouldn't dream of recommending Passenger to Frankfurt or The Cavalier's Cup to someone starting out on Agatha Christie or John Dickson Carr. I can't say enough in praise of thse two authors but those books are objectively bad and a virtually perfect way to turn a new reader off their work.
Sorry, Judy. I hadn't seen your post when I wrote the above. Delete it if you wish.
So, I've just made a start on The Creeping Jenny Mystery
by Brian Flynn. Looks promising so far.
I agree her books can be uneven (but that can be said of so many other authors, including Christie), and her methods of murder outlandish, but they are still highly enjoyable. I rated A Man Lay Dead highly, and I always think it is best to start with the first book in a series. If people don't like it, they can try one or two others to see if the author is to their taste or not.
Mod
I have also started The Shadow at Greystone Chase, Jill. I am looking forward to moving onto the Freddy Pilkington-Soames books. I believe Freddy is in this book. I have only just started reading it, but it does follow on, in a way, from the previous mystery and Angela's arrest.
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My review: This is a very interesting look at the partition of India and Pakistan, yet another bit of history of which I know very little. I knew it was violent, but had no idea how violent.
Regarding the mystery and potential series, the lead character is extremely feisty and will need learn restraint. She has enough of a back story to be interesting but it does not take over the plot. The murder and investigation is complex, but I hope our main character doesn't always need to go rogue. I look forward to her maturing in later books.
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Next will probably be the latest Miss Kopp, Miss Kopp Investigates.
(Yes, I know October reads are coming due. I'll get there.)
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Yes, once I saw the price and that my library had it on the shelf, I had to take it our immediately. There is something about knowing a thing is rare that drives possession.
Sandy wrote: "I read Midnight at Malabar House, the first of a new series. It is set in 1950 following the partition of India.My review: This is a very interesting look at the partition of Indi..."
I have been eyeing this for a while, so will have to move it up the pile based on your review.
Mod
by Brian Flynn. Looks promising so far."I'll be interested to hear what you think of that one, Colin. You have jogged my memory and I'm also just starting a Brian Flynn book, The Case of the Black Twenty-Two: An Anthony Bathurst Mystery, as I've been meaning to read another one after enjoying the first in the series... and they are on Kindle Unlimited.
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My review: This is a very interesting look at the par..."
I would also be interested to read this one. Will add to my TBR now.
Susan wrote: "Yes, I think let's move on from A Man Lay Dead now. I have also started The Shadow at Greystone Chase, Jill. I am looking forward to moving onto the Freddy Pilkington-Soames books. I believe Fred..."
Oh, yes, Freddy is definitely in this one, he added a lot of the humor and charm for me. The last two books with Freddy being more than just snarky on the sidelines, but being a true friend and fellow investigator, plus providing a lot of the humor, has me looking forward to his series, as well.
Sandy wrote: "I read Midnight at Malabar House, the first of a new series. It is set in 1950 following the partition of India.My review: This is a very interesting look at the partition of Indi..."
Thanks for the review, this one is on my TBR list, looked promising.
Mod
Formed in 1930, The Detection Club was a group of British mystery writers which included Agatha Christie, Dorothy L. Sayers, Ronald Knox, Freeman Wills Crofts, Arthur Morrison, John Rhode, Jessie Rickard, Baroness Emma Orczy, R. Austin Freeman, G.D.H. Cole, Margaret Cole, E.C. Bentley, Henry Wade, and H.C. Bailey. Anthony Berkeley played a big role in setting up the club.
The Detection Club would not only help each other with technical aspects in their individual writings, but they also wrote a number of works together, with members of the club contributing one or more chapters in turn.
As an introduction to our new challenge we plan a buddy read of The Golden Age of Murder by Martin Edwards in December 2021 and the books chosen will then be:
Jan: The Hollow Man - John Dickson Carr
Feb: Inspector French's Greatest Case - Freeman Wills Crofts
March: The Three Taps: A Detective Story Without a Moral - Ronald Knox
April: Tragedy at Law - Cyril Hare
May: Whose Body? - Dorothy L. Sayers
June: Murder at Monk's Barn - Cecil Waye
July: The Red Thumb Mark - R. Austin Freeman
August: Malice Aforethought - Frances Iles
September: The Studio Crime - Ianthe Jerrold
October: The Missing Partners - Henry Wade
November: Death in Fancy Dress - Anthony Gilbert
December: Hercule Poirot's Christmas - Agatha Christie
We hope you will enjoy our selection from this important and influential group of Golden Age writers and we wish you all a very happy 2022!
Start Date: January 01, 2022
End Date: December 31, 2022
This sounds wonderful--and what a coincidence that I found my mom's old Penguin copy of The Hollow Man jus a couple of days ago--time to swipe it!
Lady Clementina wrote: "This sounds wonderful--and what a coincidence that I found my mom's old Penguin copy of The Hollow Man jus a couple of days ago--time to swipe it!"Finders, keepers…;)
I finished The Lodger by Marie Belloc Lowndes which is inspired by the Jack the Ripper case, and a really interesting psychological drama. Very good.
The challenge list looks really interesting. Apart from the Sayers and Christie I haven't read any of the other books. Incidently, I started reading Death in Fancy Dress a few minutes before I saw the list. Thank you for all the effort put into creating this wonderful challenge.
Mod
Finished The Shadow at Greystone Chase And now starting the buddy read of The Dusky Hour by E.R. Punshon the 9th book in the series.
Judy wrote: "I've now finished The Case of the Black Twenty-Two: An Anthony Bathurst Mystery by Brian Flynn which I really enjoyed "It's great to hear you've enjoyed the Flynn books you've read. I'm making my way more slowly through The Creeping Jenny Mystery, not because of any issue with the book but due to some real world hassles and family problems demanding my attention.
Surprisingly for me, I've been going through them in order and although some are naturally stronger than others, there hasn't been a dud among the first seven.
Mod
I have just started listening to The Windsor Knot, which is free with Audible Plus for Audible (UK) members. I'm enjoying it - and well worth the price!
Finished Murder of a Quack the other day, enjoyed another outing with Littlejohn. Now digging into our upcoming Gervase Fen book, The Case of the Gilded Fly: A Gervase Fen Mystery
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Lady Clementina wrote: "Victoria wrote: "I've just finished the Benson Murder Case by S. S. Van Dine. .....Have you seen the William Powell adaptations? ."I found the first one on youtube, The quality of the print wasn't the best, but it was still fun to watch. It seemed a lot faster paced than the book
Thanks for mentioning that Victoria, I'll have a look.
Judy wrote: "I've just started Murder of a Quack too, Susan - enjoying it so far."Oh, good! I like the little references to his home life with Mrs L, that he writes to her with news of his cases, she helps him work them out.
Current reading Agatha’s The Mysterious Affair At Styles. Almost finishing. I’m liking it a lot. I’m intending to alternate reading one book by Agatha Christie and one by P D James (in chronological order). Not sure that this is a wise choice. We’ll see.
Reading the Detectives
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I found it rather underwhelming, not bad but not especially engaging either - review here: htt..."
I remember enjoying that one, Colin, but I know there were mixed views when we had a group read of it. I have been meaning to read more in the series but haven't done so yet (as with so many other series!)