Little Dorrit: Chapters 12 - 22

[Kathleen]

Little Dorrit does not seem to spend much time working. On Sunday she was relaxing on the Iron Bridge when she met John and yesterday she spent part of her day with her sister. Today she is on the bridge again, presumably in the middle of the day. If I were Dickens’ editor I would talk to him about this apparent inconsistency.

Also, if she isn’t working in someone’s house, where will she get the dinner to warm up for her father?

These little things bother me when I read.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Mark wrote: "I think there is a woman in Little Dorrit who will turn out to be more challenging in conventional Victorian terms. I will say no more ..."

Indeed there is! I do love it when all of a sudden Charles Dickens seems to belong to a different century, in terms of his perceptions :) And if anyone would like to think this over as we read, we have already met her.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Kathleen wrote: "Little Dorrit does not seem to spend much time working ..."

Good observations! Charles Dickens was his own editor, of course, and edited many other literary figures, such as Elizabeth Gaskell, Wilkie Collins and Anthony Trollope. Whether anyone would have been brave enough to pick him up on slips in the detail, I don't know ... maybe John Forster would, if he had noticed.

Do you know the books of literary conundrums by the literary critic John Sutherland, Kathleen? The first is called Is Heathcliff a Murderer?: Great Puzzles in Nineteenth-Century Fiction. They are full of questions like this, and he writes a short piece about each one. I have three, and they really are great puzzles, as well as being entertaining. Some are author's mistakes (such as times of year, for instance), and others are deliberate misdirections, or back stories never picked up.

I must look to see if he has a question from Little Dorrit to mull over. There was one about Aunt Betsey's back story in David Copperfield, which I talked about when we were reading it :)

For the answers to your questions, the Iron Bridge is not very far from the Marshalsea, so perhaps Amy could slip out for half an hour now and then; she is not locked in. And we are given to understand that Amy is an excellent housekeeper, so on the rare days when there is not work for her at Mrs. Clennam's, perhaps she has held back some of the food for her father. Fanny also works, and Frederick (and Tip from time to time) so we have to assume that their bit of money goes into the family's coffers too, and Amy is the one who budgets it all.

[Jenny]

I am struck by the different romantic relationships and coutships... We have Affery and Flintwich, whose courtship was "Get your bonnet monday and we will have it done" Then there is Pet and Henry Gowan who care for each other but family interviens, Clennam and Pet and Clennam and Fanny whi are both kept apart by family or social pressure, Fanny and Mr Sparkler who are thrown apart by his mother, though Fanny could care less and then we have Young John and Amy, wherr Young John loves Amy, and would be considered suitable but she spurns him.

[Mark]

Anne wrote: "Jean, I can see why you would get more out of each reading of a Dickens novel. it is amazing to me how much he packs into a sentence, let alone a paragraph or a chapter. I must listen very carefull..."

Here's a line from Chapter XX "Moving in Society"hat had me chortle out loud: "The carpenters had a joke to the effect that he was dead without being aware of it."

[Mark]

Mark wrote: "As to Dickens characters being all good or bad, I think there is a woman in Little Dorrit who will turn out to be more challenging in conventional Victorian terms. I will say no more.

Also want to..."

Oh and for character development, there is Sydney Carton of A Tale of Two Cities.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Mark wrote: "Here's a line from Chapter XX "Moving in Society"hat had me chortle out loud: "The carpenters had a joke to the effect that he was dead without being aware of it." ..."

That is priceless, Mark :D

And yes, Sydney Carton is an excellent example for those who say Charles Dickens's characters never develop or change!

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Jenny wrote: "I am struck by the different romantic relationships and courtships ..."

I agree, we have a whole spectrum here! Quite a few are dysfunctional, and it's implied that Mr. and Mrs. Clennam's (Arthur's parents) was not very happy either. Perhaps there will be happier ones to come :)

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Are you still reading this section? Please do come and tell us your thoughts :)

[Judy]

Bionic Jean wrote: "Are you still reading this section? Please do come and tell us your thoughts :)"

I'm a long way behind, but am now returning to the book and catching up - I've just finished the fifth number (Chapter 18).

Just a couple of thoughts to add so far on this section. One is that I wonder whether others also have Dickens's running titles at the top of their pages? The edition I'm reading (an old Penguin trade paperback issued to tie in with the Christine Edzard films) includes these, and they are sometimes quite interesting. When Amy visits Clennam in Chapter 14 (Little Dorrit's Party), and her worn-out shoes are described, there is a running title "Cinderella's shoes".

Also, on Tattycoram, there have been a couple of mentions in the discussion of her being adopted, but I don't think she was - I read it that the Meagles originally took her in to be trained as a servant/companion, even though she was a child, as with Charley who is Esther's maid in Bleak House, for instance.

I've looked back and, when Mr Meagles is telling Clennam how they took her in originally, he says that he said to her: "Let us take one of those same little children to be a little maid to Pet." I think the Meagles may think they have treated her almost as a member of the family, but there was never any thought of adopting her or treating her as a sister to Pet.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Judy!! I'm so glad to see you posting in this read again :)

"I wonder whether others also have Dickens's running titles at the top of their pages?" My kindle edition doesn't ... but they do sound as though they add to the enjoyment! At home I have a "Centennial Edition" of all Charles Dickens' works, and I know that has quite a few of the titled pages, so I'll look forward to seeing if it does for Little Dorrit :)

"I think the Meagles may think they have treated her almost as a member of the family, but there was never any thought of adopting her" - Yes good point. We were using the term perhaps too loosely.

I think I referred to Tattycoram being in effect "half-maid, half adopted", and once elsewhere I used "adopted" in inverted commas, (to make the distinction) but she had never been legally adopted by the Meagles.

However, I do think it is an ill-defined position they have chosen, and one fraught with potential difficulties. If a child had been born to a servant, that child would have been brought up in service, and that was common practice. But the Meagles do treat Tattycoram differently, as neither quite a servant nor quite a companion. "Maid" can just mean "young girl", too, can't it, which complicates matters! (Though I think the preposition does clarify that a little: "a maid to".)

I think they really wanted to eat their cake and still have it, and with a child of a different temperament, it could have worked out well. As it is ...

[Judy]

Thank you Jean, sorry not to have been around! I've just been looking up a bit of info about the Foundling Hospital and children left to be apprenticed in domestic service.

According to the Victorian Web, the leaving age was originally between 10 and 12, rising later to 14 for boys and 16 to girls. It doesn't say when this changed, but this section of Little Dorrit is set in the 1820s (I noticed John Chivery imagined his tombstone giving his death date as 1826) and Tattycoram has clearly been with the family for several years, so I'm guessing they could have taken her in aged 10 or 12 to apprentice as a maid.

The Victorian Web page about the Foundling Hospital is interesting but DOES CONTAIN SPOILERS for Little Dorrit in the last paragraph:
http://www.victorianweb.org/history/o...

Sorry, GR suddenly went haywire and posted this while I was in the middle of writing it!

[Judy]

Bionic Jean wrote: "But the Meagles do treat Tattycoram differently, as neither quite a servant nor quite a companion. ..."

Well put, Jean, I agree with that, and also that they are having their cake and eating it. Also the name change was treating her a bit like a pet dog, although I believe masters actually did quite often change their servants' names, as with Peggotty (another half-servant, half-friend) being known by her surname rather than as Clara in David Copperfield.

I think the Meagles are trying to be kind to Tattycoram and are certainly wonderful masters compared to, say, the people Oliver Twist is sent to early in that book - but they are patronising and Mr Meagles especially doesn't see from her point of view.

I find Mr Meagles a great character - he is kind-hearted and well-meaning, but so often obtuse! Interesting to see his snobbish admiration for the Barnacles and Stiltstalkings.

[Connie]

That was an interesting article about the Foundling Hospital, Judy.

[Judy]

Thank you, Connie. There is quite a lot of material about the Foundling Hospital online and I've just noticed there are a few books on the topic which look good too - I'm wondering about reading London's Forgotten Children: Thomas Coram And The Foundling Hospital or Orphans of Empire: The Fate of London's Foundlings.

[Katy]

Judy wrote: "Bionic Jean wrote: "But the Meagles do treat Tattycoram differently, as neither quite a servant nor quite a companion. ..."

Well put, Jean, I agree with that, and also that they are having their c..."

Judy, I like your description of Mr. Meagles "kind-hearted and well-meaning, but so often obtuse". It fits perfectly, in my opinion.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Judy - Thanks for mentioning those two books, which I didn't know of.

I had read several articles about the philanthropist, Thomas Coram, but not the one you linked to. In the end I went for posting an engraving, and distilling a few facts LINK HERE, as I'm not always sure what will interest others.

The novel itself begins in 1826. The first chapter was set in Marseilles "thirty years ago".

Great to have an estimate of Tattycoram's age, when she was taken from the Foundlings hospital by the Meagles. Thanks!

Looking forward to you catching up, Judy!

[Judy]

Thank you for posting the engraving, Jean, very interesting. I would like to visit The Foundling Museum in London, once we are able to visit museums again.:)

[Laura]

I had a slow start to Little Dorrit but have now caught up.
I feel like it's gaining pace and interest for me at this stage.
I was so glad that Amy refused John Chivery - I think her refusal was borne of her honesty. She knows she doesn't love him and they wold not ultimately be happy. Her father is so scheming and selfish!

I can't remember who mad the point that if his children treated him differently and did not shelter him so much then perhaps he's have to "man up" and take more responsibility for himself. His acquaintances are complicit in enabling the illusion he lives under.

Fanny is such a contrast to Amy. It's interesting that her default reaction is anger- she's angry when Amy questions her taking the bracelet and then she's angry when her conscience gets the better of her and she perhaps realises her wrong.

The whole family operate under a web of fiction. They weave lies to "protect" their father, however this allows them to cling to the myth of their gentility. They paint Amy as a "simple domestic" and this allows them to ignore how she bears the majority of the responsibility and labour and care for the whole family. Interesting!

I like Arthur but he's a bit clueless - I'm also intrigued about his time in China and why we haven't heard more about it.

Also I feel he's leapt to a rather far fetched conclusion in assuming Little Dorrit is something to do with his father's deathbed guilt? But we shall see....

Lots more thoughts but that's my tuppence worth for now.
I've loved reading everyone's thoughts and comments.
Thanks!

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Laura wrote: "The whole family operate under a web of fiction. They weave lies to "protect" their father, however this allows them to cling to the myth of their gentility"

This is the Dorrit family in a nutshell, isn't it? Except maybe for Frederick, who loses himself in his music most of the time, rather than face reality.

Good observation about Fanny: "her default reaction is anger" - and your interpretation of this. What I like about Charles Dickens here is his layering: creating nuances of character. It would have been so easy to just make Fanny a selfish flibbertigibbet, but how much better to give her some depth. We see flashes of a kindlier, person here - one who feels guilty for her behaviour. If she had had a father who faced reality, and her mother had not died, what might Fanny have become?

Amy is different - but then how many times do we find that siblings, with the same home environment may turn out complete opposites in every way!

Great comment, thanks Laura :)

[Laura]

Bionic Jean wrote: "Laura wrote: "The whole family operate under a web of fiction. They weave lies to "protect" their father, however this allows them to cling to the myth of their gentility"

This is the Dorrit famil..."

Thanks Jean - I'm enjoying this more and ore as it progresses!

[Claudia]

I agree with Jean on Mrs Merdle, her name (I could not help thinking of the most frequent French swear word) her parrot and her terrific, far fetched language! The whole conversation in chapter 20 between Mrs Merdle and the sisters Dorrit show how gifted Dickens was in very different levels of languages, in featuring frankness, purity of heart but also hypocrisy, the latter skillfully wrapped up in irony and satire! Then the following chapter is disclosing what matters in Society. Very good comments from all of you!

[Claudia]

Chapter 22 is interesting from the point of view of uncertainties and ambiguity in relationships.

Mr Dorrit is unsure if he likes Arthur who stopped leaving a little Testimonial. Mrs Chivery needs help from Arthur because Our John is sinking into depression after his proposal is refused.
And Arthur does not quite know if he is perhaps in love with Amy. The chapter ends beautifully with thoughts of each other (that we may imagine as crossing somewhere in the sky) during the night. The theme of the shadow of the Marshalsea comes up again.

There are many references to names such as Mother, Child, and Father. Maggie calls Amy Mother, Arthur calls Amy my Child, and my Little Dorrit. Amy is really acting as a mother to Maggie but first of all to her father - who is yet called and considered the Father of the Marshalsea and given little Testimonials by visitors as tokens of acknowledgment for this (honorific) title. We saw in an earlier chapter how peculiar, if not ambiguous their relationship is. Maggie with her basket seems to me a counterpart, a female side of the same coin - Mr Dorrit is the other side. The difference between Mr Dorrit and Maggie is their mental age - Mr Dorrit is manipulative, whereas Maggie is suffering of a mental handicap.

We see in North and South an almost similar relationship between Margaret Hale and her father. Margaret is taking up the reins after the family has moved to the industrial Northern city, and takes care of Mr Hale when his wife is ailing and dying.

We also saw Frederick Dorrit, a strange man, depressed and confined in his own world, like a ghost, or a heartwrenching zombie, playing clarinet at the theatre without being really interested in what is going on around him. Once again we have a contrast between a crowded outer world (the theatre, or the streets) and a secluded, imprisoned inner world.

Nobody except Arthur seems to be able to help Amy, who is traveling through life, on the bridge over troubled waters (Simon and Garfunkel) bearing the burden of others but physically empty-handed.

[Judy]

Bionic Jean wrote: "LITTLE DORRIT: Second thread
Is there a section for chapters 1-11 of Little Dorrit?




There follows a list of chapters. Thank you so much Nisa for all your hard work on this."

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Welcome Judy! Sure, chapter 1-11 are LINK HERE, and to help as you read through the novel, the list of all the threads for it is LINK HERE I hope you enjoy it as much as we all did!

Do introduce yourself LINK HERE if you like, so we can get to know you a little 😊

[Lee]

Connie wrote: "Jean, you found some fascinating history and legends about the origin of the name of Bleeding Heart Yard. Thanks for all your research."
Chapter 12: Bleeding Heart Yard, message 4

Your photo Jean is remarkable! To think that you can visit this place in the 21st century. I didn't think much about it when I read the chapter; I need to re-read to see if Dickens gave a good description. But seeing this photo! The squalor I can just imagine! It is small and must have been dark with little sunlight. I am interested that it had / has cobblestones. I do not see in the photographs the flight of steps down that Dickens described, making the area lower than the surrounding streets.

Yes, indeed! I read too quickly and carelessly and I see Mr. Dickens gave a careful description of the B H Yard. And how on earth was Mrs Clennam associated with such an awful place??

One of the special things about England (and Scotland too) is that so much is preserved! In the US, we seem so eager for "progress and profit" that the sooner buildings can be torn down, the better. It is a miracle we still have historical places to visit from the American Revolution!

This chapter "The Bleeding Heart Yard" had more in it than I realized. The comments and your summary have brought me to a halt.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

In the 1960s in England there was a fashion for knocking buildings down willy nilly, but we are a bit better at preserving our heritage now. I do remember in Rome in 1973, being shocked that we were actually walking on ancient mosaic pavements which we do preserve very well here when they are discovered ... and the Italians seemed to have a casual attitude toward their ruined buildings, which were not protected in the least. But perhaps it has changed there too.

[Lee]

Petra wrote: "I enjoyed this chapter. It showed how difficult it is for hard working people, who are trying their best to just survive, have it. The Plornishes are trying so hard to find a job and make ends me..."

Chapter XII: The Bleeding Heart Yard. message 15, by Petra. I have read this chapter twice and I think is it an essay with astonishing social perception. It is the voice of the people Mr. Dickens is speaking for, the underprivileged.

"You was always at it - if not with your right hand, with your left."And who was to blame? "He could tell you who suffered, but he couldn't tell you whose fault it was."

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Yes, Petra always has her finger on the pulse. And I do like the Plornishes, especailly Mrs Plornish. She is so individual, yet they are so believable of their class and circumstances too 😊

[Lee]

Chapter 17 "Nobody's Rival", messages 136 +
Mark wrote:
"Except for facetious remarks made by Flora, Arthur apparently having lived in China for decades gives no inkling by anecdote, by behavior, that he was in such an alien environment for so long. If you were really there at that time for so long, you would have absorbed a kind of Confucian worldview as second nature".

Is Mark (the reader) still with us in Dickensians? I like this remark, observing that Arthur seems untouched by his years in such a fascinating country as China. Maybe wealthy Victorians did not travel to China. And I'm also surprised Arthur did not return wealthy, as a matter of fact. By my grandparents time, growing up in the 1890's, they traveled from America to China quite often. There was a sort of China craze among the wealthy; they all went there (in my grandfather's elite crowd).

And two decades? That is most of Arthur's adulthood! This is the first time I realized Dickens left us a bit short in describing a character. You couldn't walk into my grandfathers mansion (1920's) without being confronted with Oriental treasures, rugs, glazed pottery, etc. Yet Arthur seems untouched physically, emotionally and philosophically by his time in China.

Dickens was well acquainted with Western Europe, America and perhaps peripherally with Australia. But China? Arthur could have, should have, been enormously impacted by that experience and by all rights should have been wealthy.

As I read the following comments, I love the speculation. I will have to see if Jean came in with any remarks about the cultural & economic interactions between the Chinese and Europeans. I believe my grandfather was their for leisure and some business and trade, also. He brought his young family to China with him, but the trip most famous for him was only for about 4 months. They brought servants with them to China. I suspect they only interacted with equally well-off travelers and other international business people. But I am speculating!

[Lee]

Petra wrote:"This chapter shows us that William's actions and manipulations are deliberate and thought out; they aren't a weak personality but a cunning, manipulative one..."
Relating to Ch 19 'The Father . . . in Prison'Applies to messages 170 - 181.

I find I must disagree with apparently everyone here in their harsh judgements of Amy's father. Amy loves him, without any qualifications or requirements. That is Dickens's main point: unconditional love. . And her father is a broken man who, to survive the unbelievable horror of losing his freedom and self-determination for DECADES, has created a false caricature of himself: The Father of the Marshalsea. What utter nonsense Mr. Dorrit has created.

In my own life, (with deep respect to a close family member) I have seen how old age, illness and the feebleness that comes with knowing death is near can turn a person into a shadow of their former selves. I think Dickens has made Mr. Dorrit seem much older than his chronological age by the way he falls apart in this chapter.

But I see him as a ruined man; not a bad man.

Earlier in the chapter Dickens really struck a nerve with me. How did he KNOW these feelings? Had he already met the young actress and foresaw his reputation crumbling if his children were to find out?

"Let no man . . . fail to preserve at least that little of the times of his prosperity and respect. Let his children have that clue to what he was.. . . . I don't know - my children will have never seen me.'"

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Lee wrote: "Is Mark (the reader) still with us in Dickensians? ..."

He is indeed Lee, although he has not commented since we read Bleak House, so I'm not sure he wil revisit the Little Dorrit threads.

Thank you for your observations and personal additions 😊 which are so interesting! You will know by now that Dickens did not sell us short on the China connection, but returns to it ... as do we!

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Lee - I very much like your observations about Mr (William) Dorrit. It is a very fair view, and I wonder if you will continue to hold it throughout the novel, and also whether others might continue with the their opposing views. Who know who might revise their opinion in hindsight 😊

And what a great insight about the author's innermost thoughts!