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Little Dorrit
Little Dorrit - Group Read 2
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Little Dorrit: Chapters 12 - 22
Thanks Jenny! That makes sense. Jean I’m just going off this comment. “oh good gracious me I hope you never kept yourself a bachelor so long on my account!” She does follow it up by saying that of course he never did, but it seems rather presumptuous (there’s probably a better word for this) to even assume it’s a possibility. I suppose they were in love as kids and so it makes sense for a girl to think that, it just made me cringe when she said that! I felt uncomfortable for her! I know she’s saying she doesn’t want him to do that and doesn’t think it’s a possibility, but the fact that she spouts it out shows she was thinking it, even if quickly. Every young woman wants to be pined after. It’s romantic to think he couldn’t find a wife because he was still in love with her. Her logic tells her that’s not the case, but she still says it, which gives us a glimpse into her thoughts. And adds to her character trait of talking quite a bit and saying what comes to her mind. She’s fun!
Andree I really like that comparison. When Arthur was trapped IN he felt trapped and like his freedom was taken away. Here they are trapped OUT and we see the freedom they have. They can, and do, go anywhere. They see the city and various people. But they are not safe or taken care of. They need a place of refuge in the end. Interesting message. Sometimes freedom is not safe? Or not what we actually want? Similar to how it was said that Mr Dorrit wouldn’t be able to live a good life if he were free outside of the prison. I’m getting more and more interested to see how these messages play out in the end or what they look like once I’ve read the whole book. Also, this church at the end is a refuge from the big dark world they were in all night. That’s different from the picture we get of the church in Arthur’s youth.
We also have a reminder that Maggy calls Amy little mother. Another parental figure or title, like the fathers we have been talking about.
Amy is so good with Maggy and their relationship is so sweet. Do we know how old Amy is?
Mona can you explain more? This is a very sad chapter, but I’m interested in how you think it’s manipulative to the reader or what you mean by that.
I apologize for traipsing back to the previous chapter. I missed two days of reading an commenting and will try to catch up this evening. I did want to say that Flora made me think of David's mother, who was unable to take care of herself after losing her husband and fell into the hands of Murdstone. Flora is more fortunate, because she has money and can fall back on her father; but she is just as dependent.Also re: jobbing
Job has a negative connotation, “a job lot,” otherwise called a “sporting lot,” any miscellaneous goods purchased at a cheap rate, or to be sold a bargain. Frequently used to conceal the fact of their being stolen, or otherwise dishonestly obtained.
and a job, two centuries ago, was an arranged robbery. Any unfair arrangement is now called a job.
Job, a sudden blow, as “a job in the eye.” Also used as a verb, “I’ll job this here knife in your ribs.”
So, I think the reference is meant to denote that he deals harshly and perhaps a bit underhandedly with his tenants, even though his demeanor makes him seem kindly and vulnerable.
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I must admit Robin I've always considered "little" to be used affectionately, and usually here it is. But you're right, it could indicate something else, and be a bit demeaning. She is only thought of in terms of her family, and as a sort of willing slave.
Also, nobody has to think of her name! When my mother-in-law was getting forgetful, a doctor asked if she could remember people's names. The answer was that nobody knew, as she called everyone "dear"!
Oh I've just seen lots more comments, so will read those too! I've been travelling all day, across the country, and waded through a mountain of junk mail to switch on my computer ...
For Arthur "little" is almost an endearment, like calling her "darling", but it grates on me a bit. I want them to call her Amy and give her credit for her own personality, and not as a "curiosity" of the Marshalsea. This chapter is quite sad and you feel how precarious the situation truly is for both Amy and Maggie. The first night she has ever spent outside the prison, and I can see how it might make life inside feel comforting and safe. She and Arthur talk around each other instead of to each other quite a lot.
I was a little bothered by the idea that Flintwinch is watching her. He is an unsavory character for me. BTW, Plancs immediately brought to mind Uriah. He isn't as oily perhaps, but he has that same sly, deceptive aura.
Mona wrote: "Robin, I agree with you that the nickname “Little Dorrit” is dismissive because Amy doesn’t even get to have her own name.I found this chapter to be a “tear jerker”. I feel like Dickens is blatan..."
Some of Dickens' contemporaries had the same complaint about manipulating the reader's emotions. Trollope makes fun of him in The Warden. Oscar Wilde famously said "one must have a heart of stone to read the death of (a character from another novel) without dissolving into tears . . of laughter." But there's always an audience for emotion, whether it's in books, soap operas, movies. Julian Fellowes said of Downton Abbey that he felt it wasn't a criticism to call it an upscale "soap opera" because it is about emotions.
I had the same thought about Pancks! Uriah is character that sticks with you! I hear David Armitage saying ‘umble in the audiobook that I listened to years ago every time I think of him!
Also, can we talk about this word “party”? Is there a reason Dickens calls it that? Just to show that she’s hiding her life from her family in prison to protect them (or maybe more just to protect her dad)? It seems more than that.
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It's used in a completely ironic sense.
Amy had said to Arthur that she told her father that she was going to a party, and so Arthur assumes that she is telling him the truth. In fact she is still keeping secrets - for the best of motives.
She and Maggy have nowhere to stay if they are locked out of the Marshalsea - but she knows that Arthur would not let her leave his lodgings if he had the least suspicion that she would be on the streets all night. Amy is protecting everybody.
Instead of watching people dance, she watches the clouds dance; and looks at the twinkling stars in the night sky, instead of the fashionable stars of the day, with their fine clothes and twinkling jewellery.
Wandering the streets at night, and always being forced to move on was one of the great sufferings of the homeless poor. It brings to mind Jo, the tragic crossing sweeper in Bleak House (who was actually based on a real boy Charles Dickens had helped.)
"I’m just going off this comment. “oh good gracious me I hope you never kept yourself a bachelor so long on my account!”"
This is Flora being coy and flirtatious. Perhaps it is just an English thing?
I'm sure she did embarrass herself - sometimes she says as much, when she refers to herself "running on and on". And yes, inside she would have loved for Arthur to remain single, because of his love of her. But she would also love for him to have married an exotic beauty and been happy! She is a true romantic. She was probably pushed into the marriage with Mr F. by her father - who stopped her from marrying Arthur - and is now lumbered with Mr F's dotty aunt! Not much of a life.
"this church at the end is a refuge from the big dark world they were in all night. That’s different from the picture we get of the church in Arthur’s youth."
Yes, this is deliberate. I'm glad you picked up on that. It's a real church, and a place of refuge in the novel. I'll do a piece about it later, when it is more relevant.
"Do we know how old Amy is?" We were told she is 22, and that Maggy is about 28 (or "a poor little child of ten")!
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In that case Charles Dickens did a fine job of manipulating my emotions :) I found this chapter tender, revealing and quite masterful. And as Robin says, "But there's always an audience for emotion". We wouldn't be human without our emotions.
The first part was so sensitive and revealing, without any melodrama or pathos we might expect from a Victorian writer, and the second part was taken from life. This was London's poor in the mid-nineteenth century. It is a world away from anything we might experience, but I found it a powerful description.
Think of Little Dorrit's imaginings, at the beginning of this speech (I've slightly shortened it) compared with the reality she sees, at the end of it:
"a place with famous coffee-houses, where gentlemen wearing gold-laced coats and swords had quarreled and fought duels ... where there was a mighty theatre, showing wonderful and beautiful sights to richly-dressed ladies and gentlemen, and which was for ever far beyond the reach of poor Fanny or poor uncle; desolate ideas of Covent Garden, as having all those arches in it, where the miserable children in rags among whom she had just now passed, like young rats, slunk and hid, fed on offal, huddled together for warmth, and were hunted about (look to the rats young and old, all ye Barnacles, for before God they are eating away our foundations, and will bring the roofs on our heads!);"
and a sly dig at the Circumlocution Office at the end. And Maggy's humorous comments!
Little Dorrit and Maggy are both poor, and yet they are both industrious, innocent and gentle - and Amy does not realise how much she is revealing to Arthur.
The woman who comes at them both is like a vengeful spectre! Yet even here, with someone who has lost all hope and is about to kill herself, we see that spark of humanity and concern for others, when she thinks there is a child involved. She urges Amy to go home to her father: "be afraid of me. Let me go. good night!" And with "a strange wild cry" the wild woman leaves them and goes towards her death. Wow. Don't you find these words, and this scene, incredibly powerful and ironic? There was no "party" ... but there was a woman on the way to commit suicide!
And the ending, when they are finally given shelter - another random kind act - and Amy rests her head on a death register. Even this scene is gently humorous: "in the register the interesting thing is not "who's in 'em, but who isn't - who's coming, you know, and when. That's the interesting question.", and yet grotesque and terrible - not to mention portentous.
There is no hectoring, pontificating or preachy lecturing here, as in many Victorian novels (and even parts of Charles Dickens' sometimes). I think it's a great chapter :)
Lovely explanations, Jean. I'm glad you confirmed for me that the woman was intending to kill herself. That was my sense, but I wondered if I had read more there than was intended.
Hi, Ashley. Good question. I’ll try to explain more if I can. I find it difficult to verbalize why this chapter felt so manipulated to me. It was just my strong reaction tothe chapter right after reading it. And Jean emphatically disagrees with me. Which is certainly her prerogative.
Jean, of course any good writer engages our emotions. But something about this chapter felt forced or insincere or unrealistic to me. Poor saintly Little Dorrit sleeping outdoors, etc. just somehow struck me as Dickens setting up the reader in a way clearly calculated to elicit sympathy, etc. Little Dorrit seems to lack any of the rough edges that most humans have which makes her somehow, to me, not entirely credible. And certainly most people enduring such privation would develop some rough edges.
I may have to drop out of this group read (I rarely do group reads, and I am being reminded why). I tend to have strong (and sometimes unpopular) opinions about what I read, which means I am much more comfortable with solitary reading.
Thank you so much, Jean, for your discussions of the chapter. I thought this was a very poignant chapter with more to be sad about than any other chapter yet. The "party" for the two girls/women out in the cold, the suicidal woman and their being followed was a mix of sad and portentous. I also viewed this as Dickens' portraying London as it really was in his day.
I liked this chapter. It has plenty of hints, innuendos and mysteries in it. I can't add more to what's already been said.
I do find the naming of Amy as "Little Dorrit" takes away from her as an individual and a person. It nullifies her somehow by taking her name away. The fact that she is more comfortable with this name makes me think that she feels herself to be insignificant.....and yet, her family's success (as it is) is all dur to her.
It's so sad that she spent the night on the streets, being cold and afraid. I'm glad she found some refuge and peace in the church. Putting her head on a death book is rather creepy, in it's way, but I suppose the church would have the record books handy and at hand.
Dickens seems to have a lot of suicidal people making their way to the Thames. It's sad to think that this was a common(ish) thing in his days. A true sign of no safety nets in Society for the helpless and downtrodden; no chance to get back on one's feet.
I cannot imagine marching down to a river with the intention of suicide and then actually doing it. The horror of the desolation and hopelessness that these poor people must have felt. It's horrible that Society lets people drop to such a state that suicide seems to be their only option. It's another angle to Ashley's discussion on how people don't always get what they deserve, through no fault of their own. They try and try but continue to slide to a level of despondence that leads them to a river's edge and beyond. So sad.
This lady's plight really saddened me.
Mona stay and keep sharing your views even if others see things differently. There is definitely more than one way to read a novel. That is what makes them classics. Some are purists and insist on only taking the message the author intended (which is sometimes well documented, sometimes not). Some like to read to get personal lessons out of it. Some like to find their own themes and connections. Some stick to the ones others mention. Both are great ways to read. Extreme emotional connections mean you’re reading the right way. Finding personal connections means you’re reading the right way. You don’t have to see the same things other people see or take away the same messages they do. The purpose of a group read is to see other people’s points of view. There would be no point in reading together if we were supposed to be on a scavenger hunt looking for certain things and answering essay questions the way we did in school. There is not right test answer. This is discussion for a reason. And we all learn more when we see a variety of take aways.
I agree, Mona, please don't feel you should leave or remain silent. As I mentioned others have had the same view as you. I love Dickens but I get a bit fed up sometimes with the sweet heroines. And I'm sure we are supposed to feel emotional about those young dying women that I laughingly dismiss with "Beautiful Victorian Wasting Disease". In this chapter I thought it worked to contrast the idea of the party and of Covent Garden with the cold and dark night. I do agree with you that someone raised as Amy has been would probably have more "street smarts" about when to get in, where to go if you can't get in, etc. I think Dickens' object here was to generalize from Amy to the world of the poor, the unseen, the suicidal, as well as to elicit sympathy for her.
Dickens characters are flat, if they good, they are absolutely good, if bad they remain so till the end. Like It frustrates us that why David never acts against his stepfather and his sister Murdstone. But one of the 21st century movie begins with the scene where he acts.Victorian age was full of social vices, there was hardly a middle class. Rich were rich, poor were poor. You were either a servant or were being served. Dickens also suffered as a child, from his monthly instalments of books he wanted to bring awareness in society regarding the condition of poor people and children which was mostly outcome of industrialisation.(I don’t think he ever concentrated on characterisation)
These serialised novel must contain drama, beauty and pathos, to hold the readership and it succeeded at that time, today it’s hilarious.
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Plus ... Please don't give up on this read for fear of having a different opinion. I'm in that position myself (I feel like saying "often" - but it probably just feels like that!) with several much lauded books - from Wuthering Heights to The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo! And that's because I think and make my own mind up about it, as you do.
We expect others to disagree - that's partly what a discussion is about! (As long as it is politely, and with a bit of explanation). So far we have c.55 members joining in with this read, and just one has dropped out that I know of. I was sad about that, and would be very sad if you did too - unless of course it was for other, personal reasons.
Each of us might put our case strongly, and that, as you said is "our prerogative". And some facts may be corrected by one or other of us. But in a group read - at least in "Dickensians!" - there should be no such thing as an "unpopular opinion". There will be minority opinions about all sort of things, but these will always be respected and welcome here :)
Please take heart and stay with it. You are among friends here, and friendly disagreement often sparks a really good discussion!
It is difficult to clarify an emotional reaction, and your suspicions of being manipulated were difficult for you to explain. All authors do manipulate to some extent, and lead our reactions, or we wouldn't have the concept of a "red herring" for instance! Specifically, I think you are thinking of Little Dorrit, as this chapter was seen from her point of view. So moving on ...
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So looking at this question specifically, a body of readers and critics are of the view that Dickensian heroines are too "saintly". Mona and Robin both adhere to this.
And you're right I think, Robin that in this particular case, (and many others which are similar), "Dickens' object here was to generalize from Amy to the world of the poor, the unseen, the suicidal, as well as to elicit sympathy for her."
And as well as the "saintly" few - as seen from our cynical 21st century viewpoint - we have a host of feisty heroines, who most definitely are not wishy washy! They include Florence Dombey, Kate Nickleby - and the heroine of his final completed book Our Mutual Friend (there are lots - but this character goes from start to finish) a favourite of mine, Lizzie Hexam, who would not be out of place in a 21st century novel!
What people get distracted by, is what were seen as womanly virtues of the Victorian Age, and Charles Dickens shared these ideals. He made some of his characters such as Little Nell, or Little Dorrit embody these. Initially they seem "passive" - until you realise what they actually achieve in a quiet way. Amy Dorrit's family revolves around her, and almost every single one of their successes is down to her. Her father would not have anything to eat, if she did not give him most of her food.
But let's not forget that Charles Dickens also created some of the most villainous females in literature: Madame de Farge, Mademoiselle Hortense, Mrs. Squeers, Miss Miggs, Miss Havisham ... as well as the positive but morally challenged females of the era: the perceptive coquette Dolly Varden, and sympathetic, morally aware and troubled prostitute, Nancy. There are so many, but I'm not sure which novels you will have read.
So if we stick to our previous group read, David Copperfield, there's the wonderfully emancipated and kind Aunt Betsey, and her evil opposites, Jane Murdstone and Rosa Dartle. The "vacuous" one is Dora - but even she grows in wisdom by the end :) Agnes Wickfield embodies kindness and practicality, but it seems churlish to dismiss her as unrealistically angelic, even though Charles Dickens does seem to invite us to. She's very human. We see her inner troubled troubled thoughts and anguish. Charles Dickens shows us clearly, just how hard Agnes has had to fight her own desires, to keep to this moral path, and deny herself what she really wants.
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"Dickens characters are flat, if they good, they are absolutely good, if bad they remain so till the end."
Well, up to a point. Certainly Charles Dickens makes it obvious who some villains are! But others are more sneaky, and some characters definitely change and grow through the novel. Again, I'm not sure which novels you've read, but think of Ebeezer Scrooge in A Christmas Carol! The whole point about him is that he changes! His character is completely reversed!
"Victorian age was full of social vices, there was hardly a middle class" - yes, it was in its infancy, and your description of the society of the time is correct.
But you " don’t think he ever concentrated on characterisation"? I've had it said to me that what keeps people reading Charles Dickens are the characters! There's such a wealth of them, and such rich variety across all the classes. Perhaps you are thinking of modern, more psychological aspects of writing here, and yet I still think we can tell what Charles Dickens's characters are thinking and feeling for a lot of the time.
I'm so glad you appreciate and enjoy the hilarity of much of Charles Dickens's writing :)
So let's go forward now, to the 5th installment.
By the way, everyone, I've just added another illustration to the previous chapter, 14. It's a "dark plate" by Phiz (but not a very good reproduction, I'm afraid). I know there are 3 now, but I do love this chapter! :)
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We are back in Mrs. Clennam’s dilapidated old house in the city, grimy and wretched, and “leaning heavily on the crutches that had partaken of its decay”. It even seems to attract bad weather. Mrs. Clennam just sits in her wheelchair, in her room, in “dead monotony”.
Mrs. Flintwinch feels full of dread, and frightened of any sudden noise. She is not sure whether she is dreaming, or really does hear “a noise … of a mysterious kind—a sound of rustling and of three or four quick beats like a rapid step; while a shock or tremble was communicated to her heart, as if the step had shaken the floor, or even as if she had been touched by some awful hand.”
When she hears that, Affery barely knows how she gets up the kitchen stairs, but needs to be near company in that old dark house. Then she sees the shadows of the two “clever ones”, as she calls them, on the wall of the house opposite, so she decides to creep the rest of the way upstairs, to listen to what they are talking about.
Her husband seems to be angry with Mrs. Clennam; at any rate, they are quarrelling:
“‘None of your nonsense with me,’ said Mr. Flintwinch. ‘I won’t take it from you.’
Mrs. Clennam calls him a “a rash and headstrong old man who has a set purpose not to hear me” at which he retorts that she is a “rash and headstrong old woman”. Mrs. Clennam struggles with her indignation, but realises that he has only repeated back to her what she said. She then merely warns him not to go too far.
Years ago, he reminds her, Mr. Flintwinch had served Arthur’s father’s uncle, in the same house, and Arthur’s father was:
“not much above me—was poorer as far as his pocket went—and when his uncle might as soon have left me his heir as have left him. He starved in the parlour, and I starved in the kitchen; that was the principal difference in our positions.”
He says that he had never really liked her husband, finding him:
“an undecided, irresolute chap, who had everything but his orphan life scared out of him when he was young”.
Indeed he says, Mr. Clennam had only married her, at the insistence of his parents. And Flintwinch knew as soon as he met her, that she would be “the master”. But now, because he never lets anyone have all their own way on principle, he will take Arthur’s father’s part. Flintwinch says she is a “determined woman, and a clever woman” but that he will “have justice done to Arthur’s father”.
As the light gets even dimmer, Mrs. Clennam wishes to have a candle lit for Little Dorrit, who is expected shortly. Mr. Flintwinch now asks his employer (and new partner, of course) how long she wants to have Little Dorrit come to their house. Mrs. Clennam does not seems to care; nor does she seem to want to know where Amy lives.
“Mrs Flintwinch dreamed, that, for the space of a minute or two, they remained looking at each other with the candle between them, and that she somehow derived an impression that they looked at each other fixedly.”
Flintwinch continues to goad Mrs. Clennam, until she says in exasperation:
“while I am shut up from all pleasant change I am also shut up from the knowledge of some things that I may prefer to avoid knowing, why should you, of all men, grudge me that belief? … Let Little Dorrit keep her secret from me, and do you keep it from me also.”
She rings the bell for Affery, who, more afraid of her husband than of any strange noises in the dark, scuttles back to the kitchen and pulls her apron over her face:
Mr. Flintwinch comes down the stairs - James Mahoney
Inevitably, Mr. Flintwinch comes to look for her, and she says that she has been dreaming again. He does not take very kindly to this, so she tells him once more about the strange noises:
“Jeremiah held up his light and looked at the blackened ceiling, held down his light and looked at the damp stone floor, turned round with his light and looked about at the spotted and blotched walls.
‘Rats, cats, water, drains,’ said Jeremiah.“
but Affery is sure in herself that it is none of these, and Flintwinch threatens her, telling her to get the tea straightaway. She feels so intimidated that she does this, but for ever after that, she keeps the apron over her head all the time she is going upstairs, in case she sees anything.
Little Dorrit arrives as expected, and a little later, Arthur too. He says to Affery that he wants to ask her a question, but she bursts out:
“For goodness sake don’t ask me nothing, Arthur! I am frightened out of one half of my life, and dreamed out of the other. Don’t ask me nothing! I don’t know which is which, or what is what!—”
And for ever after that, if Affery ever mentioned a noise in the house to Flintwinch, he would say:
“Affery, old woman, you shall have a dose, old woman, such a dose! You have been dreaming again!”
Mr. Jeremiah and Mrs. Affery Flintwinch - Phiz
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I love the descriptions, and the supernatural suggestions, especially this:
“Mistress Affery’s magnified shadow always flitting about, last, until it finally glided away into the air, as though she were off upon a witch excursion. Then the solitary light would burn unchangingly, until it burned pale before the dawn, and at last died under the breath of Mrs Affery, as her shadow descended on it from the witch-region of sleep.”
I am always amazed at how differently we readers can see what we are reading. The thing about Dickens that makes him so appealing to me is the depth and memorability of his characters. But, when I am reading Victorian literature, I become a part of that world and leave this one behind. I'd much rather see what life was like for them than impose my own time over theirs.Affrey is quickly becoming a favorite character for me. She is so frightened of what is going on around her, that she prefers to think she is dreaming it up than face the reality of it. A very human trait---convince yourself you do not see what you do not wish to see. To some extent, Arthur's mother does the same. She would prefer not to know anything about Amy's life, so she pretends to shield herself from the facts (although, I agree, Jean, that she probably already knows). Pretense is a handy tool for the guilty...and these two "clever ones" are certainly guilty of something, we just aren't sure what as yet.
"The debilitated old house in the city, wrapped in its mantle of soot, and leaning heavily on the crutches that had partaken of its decay and worn out with it" seems to be a character too. Probably the spooky noises are noises as the house shifts in the wind. The picture of Affery putting the apron over her head so she can't see a possible ghost is priceless. I have a friend that watches scary movies peeking through her fingers held over her eyes, and Affery reminded me of her.
I agree, Connie, the house has a character all its own, and such a house would shift and squeak. But, Affrey has been living in this house a long time, she would be used to the normal noises of shifting timbers. I think there are noises now that are different. I cast back to her earlier dream and wonder where the doppelganger might be now. Mr. Flintwinch would have her believe it is just the rats or the shifting boards, but I am unconvinced.
I've always loved stories with a bit of the supernatural (or anxiety leading to thinking there's a ghost.) Affrey is wondering what the two "clever people" are planning, leaving her in a highly anxious state. Jeremiah's threats to give her "a dose" add to the anxiety. I'm looking forward to seeing what's scaring Affrey--a person, or the house rotting away.
This is very "Gothic" - a dark old house with mysterious sounds. Dickens used the supernatural in some of his stories, as we saw from the summer reads and A Christmas Carol. However, we have suspicions at this point that any evil in the house is the doing of "the clever ones".
I also think Arthur's mother knows where Little Dorrit lives. She just doesn't want to answer any questions about it. About the mysterious sounds. Like, Sara, I thought of the doppelganger. I wonder if he is living in the house now. Or digging up treasure in the house? ....what is in the box?
I am wondering about this part of the story: "I served Arthur's father's uncle, in this house, when Arthur's father was not much above me—was poorer as far as his pocket went—and when his uncle might as soon have left me his heir as have left him. He starved in the parlour, and I starved in the kitchen; that was the principal difference in our positions; there was not much more than a flight of breakneck stairs between us."
Was Flintwinch claiming to be a blood relative or was it common to leave an inheritance to a servant over a family member? Or what? Maybe it is nothing, but it seems like strange thing to say.
Debra wrote: "I am wondering about this part of the story: "I served Arthur's father's uncle, in this house, when Arthur's father was not much above me—was poorer as far as his pocket went—and when his uncle m..."
I was wondering about that sentence as well, Debra.
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For all of this speech, he was denigrating Arthur's father, saying that first he was pushed into marriage by his father - and then pushed round by his wife (Arthur's mother). Flintwinch believes it is he himself who has the business acumen, and perhaps he is right, since Mrs. Clennam has just made him her business partner.
Flintwinch has, by his deviousness, made himself indispensable, just as Uriah Heep did in David Copperfield. He feels he deserves to be the heir, not that he is a family member that we know of. And certainly he has edged his way up from "below stairs"!
Jean, I agree that Mrs. Clennam knows where Amy lives. By verbalizing or acknowledging it, she probably has to acknowledge something else that she's avoiding at all costs. It's an interesting mystery.Strange noises in the house. Real or imagined? If real, who is making the noises and why?
I also ponder that sentence, Debra. It seems a very strange situation and, because of the other hints in this story so far, one wonders where the money of this inheritance came from.
This is a dark and gothic chapter. And full of innuendos and mysteries.
Bionic Jean wrote: "Debra and Anne - I just assumed it is part of Flintwinch's self-aggrandisement. For all of this speech, he was denigrating Arthur's father, saying that first he was pushed into marriage by his fa..."
Thanks, Jean. that makes sense.
Debra - I think he was saying that Arthur's father was so ill-treated by the Uncle and so unimportant to the family that it would have made as much sense to leave the money to a good servant as to him. Arthur's father was, obviously, the hanger-on relative, but that drop of blood entitled him to the business, while Flintwinch considers himself indispensable to the business and gets nothing.I so agree--shades of Uriah!
Interesting comments...will read them all later, but first I want to comment on this chapter while it’s still fresh in my mind.I really liked this chapter. It was eerie and atmospheric. The opening paragraphs especially (and the whole chapter) remind me of some old black & white silent horror movie I watched years ago (maybe “Nosferatu”, which is a variation on the Dracula/vampire theme?)
The references to light & shadow continue, as obviously this is a major theme in this book. Here’s one example:
“The varying light of fire and candle in Mrs Clennam’s room made the greatest change that ever broke the dead monotony of the spot. In her two long narrow windows, the fire shone sullenly all day, and sullenly all night. On rare occasions it flashed up passionately, as she did; but for the most part it was suppressed, like her, and preyed upon itself evenly and slowly.”
As creepy as Flintwinch is, I had to admire him for standing up to Mrs. Clennam.
Clearly Affery’s “dream” is real.
I wonder about the strange noises in the house. Are they hiding someone? Flintwinch’s double?
Is Mrs. Clennam simply in denial about Little Dorrit? Does she already know her history & pretends she does not? Is she “suppressing” what she knows & refusing to consider it?
Jean and Sara, thanks for the explanations. Makes sense. Anne and Petra, glad I wasn't the only one.
I see my comments echoed those of others whichI hadn’t read yet...
Mona wrote: "I see my comments echoed those of others whichI hadn’t read yet..."
I like how you pointed out the light and shadow issues. We are so used to even electric light but in the age of fires, flames would flare up and die down and the light only extended so far into the room.
Debra wrote: "I also think Arthur's mother knows where Little Dorrit lives. She just doesn't want to answer any questions about it. About the mysterious sounds. Like, Sara, I thought of the doppelganger. I won..."
Ah Ha! I hadn’t thought of this! I like the “doppelganger“ approach!
Uggh more Flintwich... From the first or second line he had I disliked him... The battle of wits between him and Mrs Clennam was well written as well.I wonder that she allows him to treat Affery like he does, Mrs. Clennam does not seam to dislike her so why? Or is it anothe case of looking away?
I am excited to get the audio book from the library to listen to along with my reading
Hey Jenny. “Ugggh more Flintwinch”. Lol...he is dislikeable, but I find him rather compelling anyway. Certainly unique and memorable.Robin, it seems to me that light & shadow or light & darkness are at play through the entire book.. Remember that first chapter with all the bright light in Marseilles, followed by the gloomy prison? Just one example of many. Or even Arthur, Maggy, and Little Dorrit and their fire in Covent Garden (or that’s how I understood it..the 3 of them sitting near a fire...)
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Bionic Jean wrote: "I'm so relieved you're back on track Mona :) I especially like your observations in comment 88."Hey, Jean...yeah, I got over yesterday’s glitch & decided sticking with the group read was a good idea. Liked today’s chapter much better.
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Mona- Yes, Flintwich is very unlikable lol! Unique and memorable as well for sure! As for compelling... I suppose in a way, like how you can sit and watch a spider spin a web for a while, even if you don't like the critters!
Jenny wrote: "Uggh more Flintwich... From the first or second line he had I disliked him... The battle of wits between him and Mrs Clennam was well written as well.I wonder that she allows him to treat Affery l..."
I feel like Mrs. Clennam doesn't care about Affery one way or the other as long as Affery is there to do her bidding. Also, I don't know if she is aware of everything Flintwich does to terrorize Affery. I think there are many things going on in Mrs. Clennam's house that she does not know about.
I think Mrs. Clennam does not want to know too much about Little Dorrit's life because she is afraid, probably rightly so, that it will heap more guilt on her head, for reasons we don't know about yet. It might upset her balance sheet of the good and evil she has done.I agree with those who say that Flintwich is looking more and more like Uriah in David Copperfield. Flintwich's comment about how he could have been heir reminds me of Uriah's constant harping on his humble beginnings. It seems like they both feel that they have been cheated in life.
Dickensians!
Books mentioned in this topic
Little Dorrit (other topics)Bleak House (other topics)
London's Forgotten Children (other topics)
Orphans of Empire: The Fate of London's Foundlings (other topics)
Little Dorrit (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Charles Dickens (other topics)Charles Dickens (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
John Forster (other topics)
John Sutherland (other topics)
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I found this chapter to be a “tear jerker”. I feel like Dickens is blatantly, unsubtly, and shamelessly manipulating the readers’ emotions. As a reader, I really don’t like it when authors do this.