The Mookse and the Gripes discussion
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Booker Prize for Fiction
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2021 Booker Prize Speculation
We don’t recognize superior writing? I think we do since there is no one style that is the best, and we can love a book that doesn’t have exceptionally good writing.
I've had serious differences with people on writing before. I personally thought Leave the World Behind and Detransition, Baby both had beautiful & compelling prose - and I have high standards for language - but I've seen various complaints about the prose of both. Though I'm honestly far and far less inclined to value a book solely on beautiful prose now than a couple years ago. Give me Psycho Nymph Exile over A Whole Life any day.
WndyJW wrote: "Of course the follow up question is what counts as superior writing? ..."Shirley Hazzard spoke about "the responsibility to the accurate word." I quoted Hazzard recently in my review of The Other Black Girl which is a book where I couldn't get past what felt (to me) like imprecise and lazy word choices.
That's the way I define superior writing. This sense of accuracy, as I read. That the words the writer chose are accurate to the writer's meaning. It can be any kind of language in any register of diction but the language needs to be intentional, where I feel that intention.
I honestly think a lot of writers never think about words as their medium. They write almost in the way we use words in everyday life--casually and imprecisely. When I read their books I feel like I'm watching a TV show--there is a vague scene with people in it, but the people are behaving in a TV-like way--and the words used to describe the scene are incidental and slap-dash.
I have to admit to being a bit surprised that The Other Black Girl is being bandied around as a possible Booker lister - I enjoyed it a lot and it's bold and absolutely of the moment in its storyline and social commentary - but I also found the writing gets a bit florid at times as well as the plot going off the rails into bonkers territory. So I have some sympathy with your points, Lark.
Eli wrote: "Though I'm honestly far and far less inclined to value a book solely on beautiful prose now than a couple years ago. Give me Psycho Nymph Exile over A Whole Life any day.":-)
I am drawn to beautiful prose because I fumble so much with my own words. Maybe it will rub off, just a little?
There are a number of things that can make a book resonate with a reader and writing is just one element. Most of us have read Assembly and The Other Black Girl, both are about professional black women dealing with racism, but I think most of us feel Assembly is far more impactful than TOBG. The good thing about TOBG is it is bound to reach a wider audience because it’s readable and the message is imbedded in a story, but for me Assembiy is literary and award worthy while TOBG is just a good read.
That’s not meant as a criticism of TOBG, I enjoyed it, and not every book has to be award worthy to be worth reading.
Im with you, Debra, I love beautiful prose. I don’t want to read a lot of books with everyday conversational language.
I almost would like to see The Other Black Girl on the list so I can debate the positive side. I felt both the prose and "bonkers," ending helped support the theme, but in truth, I loved all the ways Harris engaged me using hair as a motif in the novel. It's all about the locs! I would rather see this on the Women's Prize than the Booker but would be happy if it made it.
I'll finish Anuk Arudpragasam's A Passage North tomorrow and I imagine it has been considered as an Asian possibility. Except for the Guardian`s Marcel Theroux who criticized the prose with its " long flowing sentences which are stretched with participate phrases and subordinate clauses," the reviews have been good plus Paris Review has an interview with the author this week.
https://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2...
I'm struggling to get through Popisho. I love so much about it, but it's not moving at all .... It's so clever and lush; so far I'm missing the "so what"
I love great writing, in fact I will forgive a weak plot if the style is of a high standard. One example is Ondaatje's Warlight: mediocre plot oh but the writing just gives me gooseflesh. I don't want to sound like a grump but I am noticing that writing style is taking a backseat. I like reading contemporary novels but I have to admit they are either: overwritten (Real Life,) , under written (Normal People) just bad ( Leave the world behind, New Wilderness) or robotic ( modern day novels based in Victorian England)
Which is one of the reasons I love This One Sky Day / Popisho. The writing is exuberant and alive.
Nicole D. wrote: "I'm struggling to get through Popisho. I love so much about it, but it's not moving at all .... It's so clever and lush; so far I'm missing the "so what""These are my thoughts, too, 300 pages in. I will persist, but there will be some inevitable cursory reading involved if the “so what” doesn’t emerge soon. It hasn’t been a negative reading experience as such and can totally agree with Paul’s words: the writing is exuberant and alive. Maybe it’s just too much in the fantasy realm for me.
Also, I need to say that I’ve recently once again started enjoying reading hyper-contemporary Anglo lit fic, so there’s quite a bit of Booker excitement over here this year. Having had a bit of a break from the hottest new titles due to some sort of a slump a while back (I’m looking at you, last year’s Booker titles – thanks for pointing out Real Life, Robert), I’ve really enjoyed e.g. We Are All Birds of Uganda (5*), Second Place (5*) and Open Water (4*). Who knows if I’m back to dusty classics next week, but I’m cherishing the feeling while it lasts.
GY and I were debating whether this was fantasy or magic realism. The author clearly believes the latter, but I can see Gumble's argument that it is more the former.Interesting others don't love this (the book was also discussed on the Newest Literary Fiction forum and didn't get universal acclaim). To me, as a benchmark, this is streets ahead of anything on the 2021 Women's Prize list for example.
And compared to the tedious Open Water - no comparison.
Second Place though really should be on the list.
It reads like fantasy to me but regardless of genre I’m eager to read your review along other positive reviews once I’ve finished. I’m certain there are things I’m missing in my reading, especially if/when my reading speed goes up with this particular book!
Well I suspect not - if the language and the atmosphere aren't blowing you away then probably not the book for you - it isn't that there are massive hidden depths. I think the pum-pum scene is the key determinant of one's view of the book - genius or silly.Open Water is the one where I'd love to be persuaded the other way. Slogging through 145 pages felt more like 415. But that was the audiobook's fault getting me off to a bad start, and I would like to see it on the list.
Oddly I am also at page 300. I am really enjoying it and would be happy to see on the longlist but I can’t really see it as great literary fiction - i think though it would be an ideal Costa novel. Given it is magic realism then unfortunately in my view the author has failed to pull off the tension between the two elements that are crucial to the genre and its Caribbean master Marquez.
To use a book-appropriate cooking analogy her touch is too heavy on adding the magic seasoning so obscuring the underlying flavours of the sociopolitical realism dish.
Or to give a school teacher’s report (written by Paul’s daughters English teacher)
“There are moments when fulsome description, a digressive tendency, overemphasis or repetition cause the narrative propulsion to snag. A truly bonkers episode in which the oddness of the eponymous day is emphasised is a case in point: .. the absurd [pum-pum] conceit is at first striking and provocative; it loses its comic charge because it is returned to over and again without engaging development or expansion”
Given my love for This One Sky Day and previously Mordew I am starting to wonder if I don't really like literary fiction and am actually a fantasy fan in denial?!Indeed having now finished Chronicles from the Land of the Happiest People on Earth - which I really hope for others' sake doesn't make the longlist - one of my biggest issues was the lack of fantasy/magic realism in the book.
Given your professed love for short novels that play with form and language, your actual love for the behemoth that is Mordew is something of a contradiction!
Halfway through Razorblade Tears .(Audible) and The Island of Missing Trees (Netgalley ARC).RT is surprisingly good. Subtle. Reminds me of An American Marriage. I still have a bit to go but would be happy to see it on the Longlist... only a week to go!
TIOMT by Elif Shafak is a beautiful story. Some interesting structural features. Dual narrative. One perspective is from the POV of a fig tree (!) Highly figurative language. The similes and metaphors don't seamlessly form part of the narrative. I would be surprised to see this on the Longlist. In saying that, I really like the novel. I don't think it is as good as 10 minutes and 38 seconds though. It felt more like YA fiction and one I will happily recommend to my GCSE students. I love Elif Shafak! She is a wonderful and empowering voice for women and minorities and brilliant in interviews.
I really wanted to like the Shafak but found I couldn’t see past the sentient tree which ruined it for me (couldn’t see the good for tree). I guess that for those more comfortable with this type of magical realism it could be a very good book.
Neil wrote: "Given your professed love for short novels that play with form and language, your actual love for the behemoth that is Mordew is something of a contradiction!"That was the effect of all-inclusive prosecco and sunshine after 4 months of lockdown.
Whereas recent books have been read in isolation/lockdown, and with a loss of smell rather ruining wine drinking, after months of relative freedom, so have suffered.
Paul wrote: "Well I suspect not - if the language and the atmosphere aren't blowing you away then probably not the book for you - it isn't that there are massive hidden depths. I think the pum-pum scene is the ..."I vote for sheer genius on the pum-pum scene.
WndyJW wrote: "There are a number of things that can make a book resonate with a reader and writing is just one element. Most of us have read Assembly and The Other Black Girl, both are about professional black..."
I'm reading the two books back to back Wendy. I finished Assembly last night and am starting TOBG today. Assembly was so blistering that I'm feeling the need to step away from it and reflect on it. I can't quite believe such a short work was so powerful. It's so angry and so well-written. I really can't imagine that TOBG is in the same category but we'll see.
Cindy wrote: "I vote for sheer genius on the pum-pum scene.."Yes me as well
Paul, there’s nothing wrong with being a fantasy fan! You’re welcome to join the club. I basically split my reading between literary fiction and fantasy and reap great and disparate benefits from both.
For some early 2022 speculation - the release date of Young Mungo was announced today - 14 April 2022 - the new novel from Douglas Stuart. The story of the relationship between Protestant Mungo and Catholic James, from either side of the Glaswegian sectarian divide.
And if we're 2022 speculating (well I am), an early mention for a novel by a forum member - Chouette by Claire Oshetsky (aka Lark Benobi). Due out in November. Quite brilliant.
There’s also the new Emily St. John mandel book out in April
And a new Anne Tyler, new Ali Smith, and also Lara Williams (of Not the Booker Prize fame)
Robert wrote: "I love great writing, in fact I will forgive a weak plot if the style is of a high standard. One example is Ondaatje's Warlight: mediocre plot oh but the writing just gives me gooseflesh. I don't..."
I heartily agree with everything you said in this post, Robert.
I’m only 55 pages into Popisho/One Sky Day, but so far it hasn’t engaged me. I hear magic realism and I’m looking for One Hundre Year of Solitude or Midnight’s Children, which is unfair to every other author. I’m enjoying it, but that I was able to put it down to read other things says something.
Cindy, Assembly ruined every other book about the experience of back women for me. I said earlier that I know TOBG wasn’t meant to be the same type of book as Assembly so I shouldn’t compare the two, but I can’t help it. Assembly is just so much better.
Oooh - exciting - https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/44470...The new novel from Ali Smith is a celebration of companionship in all its timeless and contemporary, legendary and unpindownable, spellbinding and shapeshifting forms.
Paul wrote: "And if we're 2022 speculating (well I am), an early mention for a novel by a forum member - Chouette by Claire Oshetsky (aka Lark Benobi). Due out in November. Quite brilliant."This is exciting news! Congratulations, Lark!
Maybe this should be on a 2022 speculation thread with a placeholder first post for the listopia
Mod
Agreed - I have just created a 2022 thread.
I will add the books mentioned in the last few comments there
I found the first 60 or so pages tough going and almost gave up - but I'm so glad I didn't! I ended up loving it.
Which book did you end up loving, Suzanne?That is exciting new about Ali Smith!
WndyJW wrote: "Which book did you end up loving, Suzanne?Popisho/That One Sky Day
Good, it’s the kind of book I like so I have high hopes for it.
Great to hear Suzanne. NB which title do people prefer? The author clearly had intended That One Sky Day (she's been calling it that for years). But I can see why the US publishers thought Popisho (nb pronounced "Poppy Show" if that isn't clear) was more distinctive.
I think I prefer That One Sky Day - but that might be because that’s the copy I have. I did read your explanation of the Popisho title on another forum, and while I definitely appreciate the meaning behind it, I think That One Sky Day is more universally appealing - at least to me!
Mostly I think her US publisher should have done a better job with respecting the author's preference on the title. I do love the US cover, though.
lark wrote: "Mostly I think her US publisher should have done a better job with respecting the author's preference on the title. I do love the US cover, though."As someone who has just been through the pre-publishing process in the UK and US, did you find there were any issues like that, e.g. different views on the title, or on editing the novel? (or indeed on spelling)
A blogger’s predictionshttps://josbookblog.co.uk/2021/07/20/...
Assembly
Asylum Road
Bewilderment
Cloud Cuckoo Land
Detransition, Baby
Fake Accounts
How Beautiful We Were
Klara and The Sun
Lean, Fall Stand
Of Women and Salt
Open Water
The Prophets
The Yield
I have not read Cloud Cuckoo Land but the others are all both good and viable candidates I think
It’s worth saying the blogger has not read any of the books so I assume going off reviews/hype etc.
Like all lists it’s fairly U.K. and us centric.
Very excited for a new Ali Smith and a new Anne Tyler. I think the difference in titles between the US and UK versions of Leone Ross' book is simply confusing. These days, there is so much across the pond sharing of upcoming titles and reviews and so on, and when I heard people in the UK raving about This One Sky Day, I had no idea what book they were discussing, and a title search yielded nothing. It was only when someone here mentioned the alternate title that I realized it had already been published in the US. If the author preferred This One Sky Day, then I think that's the title that should have been used everywhere.
Mod
I just finished Cloud Cuckoo Land (thanks again, Cindy!). Overall, I really enjoyed it, although I thought one of the three main storylines fell flat compared to the rest of the novel. I could see this getting longlisted and other award recognition, given Doerr's pedigree and the overall theme of the novel - the power and importance of books, libraries, and librarians and how stories can connect people from different walks of life and even different time periods. I don't think it is a contender to win. Also, it's long at over 600 pages.
Paul wrote: "As someone who has just been through the pre-publishing process in the UK and US, did you find there were any issues like that, e.g. different views on the title, or on editing the novel? (or indeed on spelling)..."The amount of power an author has in these decisions seems to depend on so many variables, most importantly, whether she had any choice of publisher. If the "Popisho" people were the only ones to make an offer in the US, and the deal was something like "we love your book and want to buy it but only if you change the name to Popisho," then what author wouldn't go along with it?
I had the experience of an editor saying "We want to buy your book but only if you change the gender of one of your [most important, most beloved] characters" and for a few days it was my only offer, and I was like, ok, bite the bullet. Happily I didn't need to go with that option in the end, but I would have done it.
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The Mookse and the Gripes
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Or all the above - in different books, with different moods and different ways of saying what they want to say.
And ditto GY: the chemistry between book and reader is subjective. And wonderful to discuss.