The Mookse and the Gripes discussion
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Booker Prize for Fiction
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2021 Booker Prize Speculation
WndyJW wrote: "I feel like I am a black rain cloud over most of the books we’ve discussed lately, something I truly don’t want to be, but other than Assembly and The Tomb Guardians I can’t think of a new release that has wowed me this year. "I'm glad you said that as I'm feeling the same! There are some good books being suggested as possible longlist entries but nothing really exciting for me or even as provocative as last year's Who They Was.
Paul wrote: "Which raises the same question in my mind as the discussion of The Magician did - should one read the novels by Toibin and Thomas, or rather read Mann's books and see Beckett's play?"I was thinking exactly the same thing: Toibin's 'Thomas Mann' is such a humourless cardboard avatar that it's impossible to imagine him writing the surreal Death in Venice or dense and difficult Magic Mountain - I especially felt that the irony and humour, sometimes cruel, of Mann's books had no place in Toibin's biopic-book.
WndyJW wrote: "I was so disappointed that I couldn’t finish Ministry of Utmost Happiness. I loved The God of Small Things, love books set in India, love the idea of the book, but it just didn’t work at all for me..."Minstry of Utmost Happiness was an Indian novel written for Indians(a very small subset of Indians). I could tell as soon as I read it that it couldn't translate well over western audiences because Roy presupposes that readers will be very much aware of a lot of Indian history and polity, especially centring around Kashmir. The biggest digression in the book will be incomprehensible if readers don't even have a basic grasp on how Kashmiri people are treated; which let's be honest, not a lot of people know.
God of Small Things was a story of opression told through human consequences for the most part, whereas Ministry is just a story of opression. And not a good one at that. As much as I respect her, she rode up that longlist on name recognition only.
The Performance is about the act of watching the play so very different to The Magician.
I am seriously considering watching the play on Sunday (to celebrate my release from 3 weeks of Covid isolation) then reading the book.Good way to do both?
I finished an ARC of The Listeners by Jordan Tannahill that was mentioned upthread as a possible list contender - I'd be happy to see it there as it's smart, contemporary and gripping. Even at 270 pp. though I found it slightly too long - hope I'm not turning into Paul ;)Coincidentally, some of the characters in it are reading Thomas Mann's The Magic Mountain.
Roman Clodia wrote: "Even at 270 pp. though I found it slightly too long - hope I'm not turning into Paul ;)"There are worse things that turning into Paul! Imagine being a genetically identical but inferior version of Paul as one of the other forum members has to live with.
And 270 pages is definitely too long.
I’m glad I’m not the only one, RC. I’m okay with not loving every book I read, I just don’t want other members of the group to see that I posted a comment, sigh heavily and scroll past, not wanting to read yet another negative post about a book they liked from WndyJW!Not that I’m happy anyone else is not having a stellar book summer.
Thank you for that observation, Gaurav; it’s always helpful to understand the culture in which a novel is set and Wikipedia doesn’t always help.
My two cents about reading an original work or a novelized retelling is either before or after reading the former, read the latter.
I’ve read a number of novels based on ancient Greek myths and stories, now that I’m reading The Iliad and the plays of Aeschylus I am blown away by how brilliant, exciting, and fun they are. I read one of the battle scenes in The Iliad, expecting that I would graze that section, but it was gripping! The descriptions of Agamemnon’s battle gear and some of the hand to hand fighting was so vividly written I couldn’t just skim.
Classics are classics for a reason and no one writes “retellings” of myths or novelized versions of bad plays.
I think I agree re order (although I would be all in favour of a moratorium on literary fiction based on Greek myths) but not for "The Performance" - its a novel about watching a play: the ideal is to watch the play (online) as you read it - but next best is to at least read about the play before you read the book
In contrast to Wendy and RC for me this has been a great year for new English language fiction: the Women's Prize shortlist is excellent and I could easily pick a Booker longlist of books I rated 5 stars. But I think perhaps I am in a lot more positive place at the moment for reading new fiction so tend to look for the good bits?
Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "In contrast to Wendy and RC for me this has been a great year for new English language fiction: the Women's Prize shortlist is excellent and I could easily pick a Booker longlist of books I rated 5"It's interesting to consider the reasons: I've just counted up and have rated 23 books in 2021 as 5-stars, so it's not that I'm objectively having a bad reading year, but more that the books on the Women's list and being mooted for the Booker are not the ones that I'm most enthused about - apart from Piranesi which I gave 5-stars.
Without doing any deeper analysis, I'd say my best books have either been translated or are older books. I have high hopes for the Women in Translation prize.
Plus there's that old chestnut of how we use the star system which we don't need to go back into... ;)
I’m in a very positive place in my life and usually like new fiction. I start every book expecting and hoping to like it and I liked every book I finished, I just didn’t find many of the new releases excellent. My definition of excellence in a book is that it has fully formed, complex characters, superior writing, intelligent language, that it is evocative of place or mood, wrestles with new ideas or new ways of thinking about old ideas, that it makes me think, or challenges me in some way. I like novels with a good story, but that wouldn’t count as excellent for me.
Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "I think I agree re order (although I would be all in favour of a moratorium on literary fiction based on Greek myths) but not for "The Performance" - its a novel about watching a play: the ideal is..."I have read enough novelized Greek myths for myself, but if a novel was written for every story or character that wouldn’t be a bad thing it introduces those hesitant to read the classics to the stories and names.
Thanks both - was more trying to counter the black clouds. Today of course given what I just said I read what I found an absolute stinker - "Leave the World Behind" - Roman Clodia has written a 1 star review which is completely viral by Goodreads standards (more than 900 likes) and which I have to say I genuinely found very generous to the book.
My own less viral review
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
I feel exactly the same, Roman Clodia; I don’t feel I’m under a black cloud, I’m afraid I am a black cloud over everyone’s else’s reading and discussions. Being honest about a book is expected, but relentless negativity is no fun for anyone and I don’t want to be that person, but thank you, GY.Jeez, Gumble, you’re awfully negative. :)
I would like to see an author be brave enough to include a demisexual character in a novel. Not just hint at a character’s demisexuality, but explicitly state, “I am a demisexual and I refuse to hide it for one more day!” (This attempt at humor is not meant to minimize the need for true minorities to see themselves represented in books and films.)
To be honest the author of “Leave the World Behind” is kind of aiming for that - I think after reading it many people may become demi-sexual. The body part writing is enough to put anyone off.
Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "The body part writing is enough to put anyone off."I still remember all the acrobatic penises ;))
What about The Fugitives by Jamal Mahjoub (Canongate Books) ? There are almost no reviews on goodreads but it sounds pretty great AND there's a blurb by Chigozie Obioma on the cover calling him "a truly great writer". There's usually at least one book on the list that no one expected at all and this definitely fits the bill.
Good call. As you sat this one seems to have almost no reviews either here or in the MSM despite being a November 2020 release. The author is interesting as they largely write crime fiction under a pseudonym but with occasional literary fiction.
It has two ratings worldwide on Amazon (none in the U.K.) and no reviews and Goodreads does not even have a cover picture.
If The Fugitives was listed it would be the poster book for sleepers! Not a lot of reviews, but all 4-5 stars.
Although of course from a publisher that cuts off ARCs if you give three stars though (sorry had to get that in)
Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "Although of course from a publisher that cuts off ARCs if you give three stars though (sorry had to get that in)"That seems well worth "get[ing] that in," Gumble, given that is likely to result in 4- and 5-star pre-publication ratings only for the most part!
Marc’s right. Now we know not to trust pre-publication ratings.
Actually, though, I've given Canongate books 2- and 3- star ratings (The Startup Wife, The Shadow King recently) and am still approved by them. There may be reviewers who talk up ARC ratings but not all of us!
I have never crossed over to that step. I am part of the mailing list and they keep sending me emails but they never actually respond to my requests.
Judge Maya Jasanoff recently posted a picture on Instagram of the stack of Booker submissions she has read since Jan, and this has naturally led to some speculation:https://www.instagram.com/p/CQwtomuLkHT/
Some of the books, based on visual comparison to eligible titles, may be:
- Hardback with red sprayed edges: This One Sky Day
- Hardback with blue sprayed edges: The Lamplighters
- Hardback with brown, orange and blue shapes (first column, towards bottom): A Burning
- Hardback with green pattern (first column, towards bottom): The Living Sea of Waking Dreams
- Slim red hardback with white cover (second column, towards top): Assembly
- White hardback with pink flaps (third column, towards top): Fault Lines
- And so on.
There are quite a few thick books in the stack, as well as a few unbound manuscripts.
Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "In contrast to Wendy and RC for me this has been a great year for new English language fiction: the Women's Prize shortlist is excellent and I could easily pick a Booker longlist of books I rated 5..."I am with you on this (not a surprise). I've read some excellent fiction lately (currently 2/3rds of the way through Sarah Winman's Still Life and absolutely loving it and finally own a copy of Assembly, which I'll be turning to next).
Still Life is next up The Rain Heron, which is very good, and Sterling Karat Gold, which I hope to finish tonight. It’s brilliant and funny.
But_i_thought_ wrote: "Judge Maya Jasanoff recently posted a picture on Instagram of the stack of Booker submissions she has read since Jan, and this has naturally led to some speculation:https://www.instagram.com/p/CQw..."
Thanks for posting that and good to see Maya Jasanoff posting it- that's the sort of interaction with readers that was suggested on the website-suggestions thread.
Good to see This One Sky Day has been entered - the visibility is one advantage of sprayed edges!
Roman Clodia wrote: "Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "The body part writing is enough to put anyone off."I still remember all the acrobatic penises ;))"
That one, memorable sentence just about did me in, too. But I love Leave the World Behind. I've read it four times.
If I read a book a day for 6 months they would blur into one big book stew in my mind. I can think of methods to pare down and separate out the best of the mix, but still, it must be so difficult to narrow down to a dozen or so. I’d be afraid that a fantastic book I read in the first couple of weeks would begin to pale in my memory and more current good, but not as good, books would seem better because the memory of enjoying the recent book would be stronger.This might explain why books we admire so much get pushed aside for lesser books.
I’m so glad I knew not to even try for a career in publishing, having to read assigned books every day would drain almost every drop of joy out of books for me.
WndyJW wrote: "My definition of excellence in a book is that it has fully formed, complex characters, superior writing, intelligent language, that it is evocative of place or mood, wrestles with new ideas or new ways of thinking about old ideas, that it makes me think, or challenges me in some way...."Yes.
One element on your list that I'm frequently missing, even in books marketed as "literary," is "superior writing." I know we argue a lot (even in this thread) about what "superior writing" is but it dismays me how many writers just don't even seem to try.
Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "Thanks both - was more trying to counter the black clouds. Today of course given what I just said I read what I found an absolute stinker - "Leave the World Behind" - Roman Clodia has written a 1..."
I didn't really like that book - what was all the hype about?
lark wrote: "[spoilers removed]"Haha - yes, I had to quote that in my review! It's such an absurd image and sentence... yet it makes me smile at how ridiculous it is :))
Robert wrote: "I didn't really like that book - what was all the hype about? ..."Robert, I have no idea why other people love it, but I know why I do. The first time I read this novel it really irked me. It seems to break the fictional contract with the reader over and over again. I decided to read it again and think, ok, assuming this novel is exactly what the author intended it to be, what's it about? And it resolved itself into a near-metafictional exploration of how fiction frames Maslow's hierarchy of needs...and then the novel smashes each framework, one by one, on its way to the essential question: "why do we live?"
I also got very swoony about the cut scenes of nature behaving in mysterious ways--I thought these were beautifully written--and unlike many other readers I loved the unexpected leaps into omniscient storytelling where the author and I were having a dialogue about the meaning of life in some other, timeless place.
I haven't really searched out why other people enjoyed the book but that's the reason for me. It took a lot of work for me to get over the first part where Clay reminded me so much of Chip in The Corrections and I thought I was in for THAT kind of novel. But no. That whole layer of needs just disappears--almost as if Alam is on the page dismissing these big stuffy social novels that purport to answer the question 'why do we live?'-- and something else begins to happen.
Roman Clodia wrote: "lark wrote: "[spoilers removed]"Haha - yes, I had to quote that in my review! It's such an absurd image and sentence... yet it makes me smile at how ridiculous it is :))"
There are a few contenders on that same page as Clay gives into his baser instincts but that one sentence stands out as being particularly self-indulgent--although I ascribe that quality to the character, and not the author.
lark wrote: "Robert, I have no idea why other people love it, but I know why I do."Fascinating post, Lark - I love hearing what other readers see in a book that didn't work for me.
Roman Clodia wrote: "I love hearing what other readers see in a book that didn't work for me."Me too, and it also goes the other way--I love when readers take the time to write critical reviews that are thoughtful and where readers try to get to the heart of why a given book didn't work for them.
I finally read The Prophets recently - I think it has a great chance of making the longlist unless Rowan Williams points out (which was my issue first time) that the copious biblical references don’t really work. But my reason for posting is to say I am pretty sure the book would have had little chance last year - I think it would have fitted (like we think The Water Dancer) into the judges dislike of “high- faultin” treatments of race - and that they would almost certainly have picked The Other Black Girl.
The identification of books that were submitted is interesting - particularly Assembly and The One Sky Day
It’s encouraging after the judges last year said
“Only a handful of novels by British ethnic minorities were entered. African-American fiction, by contrast, is in robust health. “
Areeb wrote: "I have never crossed over to that step. I am part of the mailing list and they keep sending me emails but they never actually respond to my requests."Same here - well it's only happened twice but I REALLY had to beg
lark wrote: "Robert wrote: "I didn't really like that book - what was all the hype about? ..."Robert, I have no idea why other people love it, but I know why I do. The first time I read this novel it really i..."
I wish I saw hints of The Corrections! I thought the writing was bad. I thought it was like a post apocalyptic version of Jordan Peele's US
I thought you refused to even dignify The Prophets with a review first time round - was it any better on the 2nd?This from an interview with the author (which you quote) on his intended audience is interesting
"In my mind, the audience was totally Black and mostly queer and likely in America, if not American themselves"
the last in particular for a book prize that is ultimately aimed mostly at UK & Irish readers. But then most Booker prize followers, statistically, would also be white and heterosexual, and that wouldn't be a reason to exclude it, so a book aimed at US readers shouldn't be either I guess.
But yes with Assembly, This One Sky Day, Open Water, Mrs Death Misses Death, We Are All Birds of Uganda, The First Woman, Peaces, The Day I Fell of My Island, Diary of a Film, and In the End It Was All About Love, among others, it seems a bumper year for British (nationality or based) ethnic minorities.
lark wrote: "[spoilers removed]"“…at the house’s allure” ???
lark wrote: "WndyJW wrote: "My definition of excellence in a book is that it has fully formed, complex characters, superior writing, intelligent language, that it is evocative of place or mood, wrestles with ne..."Of course the follow up question is what counts as superior writing? Florid, lush prose? Lyrical? Sparse intelligent prose? Prose style that makes one want to reread just for the beauty of the language or prose that is like windshield that one doesn’t see, but sees through to the story?
I think we all recognize superior prose when we read it and we recognize sophomoric, 9th grade reading level prose.
I’ll take excellent writing over good story almost every time.
I do not think we do Wendy (or at least we all recognise it in different books) or we would not all debate books so much.
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The Mookse and the Gripes
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There is a 60th anniversary production of the play on in London this week. Which raises the same question in my mind as the discussion of The Magician did - should one read the novels by Toibin and Thomas, or rather read Mann's books and see Beckett's play?
Yes the ideal answer is both, but I do sometimes feel like I'm more inclined, due to the bright lights of Booker speculation and new book promotion, to do the former more than the latter - and yet, however good they are, I suspect Toibin and Thomas's works won't be as prominent in 60 years time as the works that inspired them.