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The Black Moth Group Read Sept 2020 Spoiler thread
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Karlyne wrote: "Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "I don't remember how old I was when I first read this, but my main memory has always been of Richard and Lavinia, who were beyond annoying, both being..."No you are correct. Boris had health problems his whole life.
he is GH's first unsatisfactory brother and he really was a poor brother!
Mod
Yes, and it ties in with what we discussed earlier, about Jack casually committing armed robbery for fun. I don't think she was really thinking through the consequences of these light-hearted crimes - but then, teenagers often don't.
And regarding sexual harassment and assault, there still lingers the view that a sensible woman can 'deal with it' and that making a fuss is a sign of weakness. Diana's apparent indifference in that light appears as calmness and dignity, and all to her credit.
Mod
Oh, he certainly is! But don't you think we're meant to feel a little sorry for him? The prologue and epilogue, where we see his behaviour through the eyes of his friend Frank definitely give that impression to me. It's one of the things that raises the story above melodrama.
At the end I do feel sorry for him. During the epilogue, when he realises that he started wrong, made things worse and that he actually loved Diana. It is a beautifully written scene.
Mod
"a monstrous queer Old Man, who was vastly fidgetty and overcome to see Jack".
Do we know who this is?
Okay I finally got to read Black Moth; it was slow going for me at first but when I got into it I realized why she needed to explain everything and then the abduction! I knew she was working to up to something like that but still! Then the hero to the rescue ! I loved it! So yes I liked it!
Jenny wrote: "There's one thing puzzling me about the epilogue: Lavinia's letter describing Jack's homecoming mentions"a monstrous queer Old Man, who was vastly fidgetty and overcome to see Jack".
Do we know w..."
The lawyer, Mr. Warburton, I think?
Mod
I wondered if it was him, but he was the family lawyer, used as an emissary between Richard and Jack, so surely Lavinia would have known who he was?
Jenny wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "The lawyer, Mr. Warburton, I think?..."I wondered if it was him, but he was the family lawyer, used as an emissary between Richard and Jack, so surely Lavinia would have known who..."
I can't see Lavinia worrying her pretty little head about lawyers (haha)... I'm guessing she made herself scarce whenever there might have been a visit from any kind of "man of business"!
Mod
I suppose that must be it, then. Mr W would certainly have been there, and he was rather emotional about Jack.
Mod
In fact, he nearly botches it by locking the door and keeping the key on him - he not only delays the rescue but prevents Diana making her escape.
I liked it - a bit of unpredictability is always good!
that's a very good point, Jenny, that I can't believe I didn't notice before. Jack doesn't save her. Although I think we are supposed to assume that once Stacy knows she loves Jack, he would no longer force himself on her.
would he?
I was just thinking that GH uses the Lavinia-type character many times in her books. Selfish, thoughtless, heedless, self obsessed and often cruel. Absolutely nothing really to like. I wonder who her model was? Sometimes I wonder if GH actually disliked women! (Not really of course because she created some fabulous heroines, but Lavinia is simply awful! )
Susan in Perthshire wrote: "I was just thinking that GH uses the Lavinia-type character many times in her books. Selfish, thoughtless, heedless, self obsessed and often cruel. Absolutely nothing really to like. I wonder who h..."Lavinia has all the qualities that a spoiled child has, and like a beautiful spoiled child she is charming as long as she gets her way. She's the type of woman who gives women a bad name...
Karlyne - I totally agree. The spoiled child element is so unattractive and I have never liked characters (male or female) who demonstrate that kind of behaviour. I fail to see why Richard would continue to be so desperately in love with such a selfish and unappealing woman.
I feel like Tiffany from The Nonesuch would have to grow up and apply herself to reach the level of maturity Lavinia manages. What a low bar!
Mod
It's because she's beautiful!
I think it only happens because the author is 17: there aren't any other cases where the vain and selfish character still has somebody to adore her after years, are there? Possibly Julia (A Civil Contract) (view spoiler), but most of the others are at least middle-aged and either widows or their relations with their husbands are not shown.
Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Karlyne - I totally agree. The spoiled child element is so unattractive and I have never liked characters (male or female) who demonstrate that kind of behaviour. I fail to see why Richard would c..."
Richard is weak and not overly intelligent, but I can't see that even he would still be in love with Lavinia after six years of her utter selfishness. What would make more sense would be that he'd come to regret his marriage but after playing his brother false, would remain a model husband as a sort of reparation. But, then again, "The people some people fall in love with..." Unfathomable!
I think the interesting thing about Lavinia is that she does change--just slightly--at least she realizes something that she wasn't aware of before, which is that she does love Richard. I am not saying that makes her likable, but I do think it makes her slightly different from someone like (view spoiler) or many other Heyer characters like Lavinia. And I think it makes prospects for their marriage more hopeful.
Mod
And also that her power over him is not absolute - that it might be possible for her to lose him, and that she therefore needs to put something into the relationship instead of just taking all the time.
Jenny wrote: "..her power over him is not absolute - that it might be possible for her to lose him, and that she therefore needs to put something into the relationship instead of just taking all the time."Yes, that sounds exactly right.
Lavinia plays Richard like a violin though. To be honest, I do think Lavinia is a fitting punishment for what Richard did to his brother. As Sheila says, Lavinia does show some character growth.This time around I thought that Richard is GH's worst behaved unsatisfactory brother. Before this read that 'honour' went to (view spoiler)
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Lavinia plays Richard like a violin though. To be honest, I do think Lavinia is a fitting punishment for what Richard did to his brother. As Sheila says, Lavinia does show some character growth.T..."
I agree, Carol! Richard is just weak, but the Other Brother is a selfish pig.
Jenny wrote: "Yes, and it ties in with what we discussed earlier, about Jack casually committing armed robbery for fun. I don't think she was really thinking through the consequences of these light-hearted crimes - but then, teenagers often don't.."
The Gentleman Highwayman has always been a trope I've found both alluring and repellant in equal parts, and I had just about managed to convince myself that they were a romantic cliche and never really existed, and then I start reading a book by Thomas Levenson, called "Newton and the Counterfeiter", and in one of the chapters he talks about the criminal hierarchies in London and says this, specifically:
Highwaymen, like Dick Turpin, celebrated as a kind of latter-day Robin Hood, were the aristocrats. They were generally from higher-class origins than their fellow felons, as they had to have learned to ride. The tally of those hanged for highway robbery includes parsons' sons, impoverished scholars, spendthrift younger scions of respectable houses - gentlemen, broke, bored, or both.
which made slap my forehead and say "D'oh, of course, it actually makes sense when you look at it like that!"
So maybe Heyer was a little more on the money in her description of Jack's methods and motivations than I was giving her credit for!
Thanks for that insight Elliot. Fascinating stuff! I might be wrong but I'm a big fan of Dick Turpin.
Teresa wrote: "Thanks for that insight Elliot. Fascinating stuff! I might be wrong but I'm a big fan of Dick Turpin."I don't really know anything about Dick Turpin except the name - I'm thinking I might have to find out more about him!
I enjoyed the thrilling conclusion but wow Tracy is utterly despicable. I don't think it was acceptable to rape gently bred young ladies, even in the Georgian era. He's obviously done this before and in spite of the women crying, begging and pleading, he raped them anyway! I'm sure, given the time Heyer was writing this, if she spelled that out loud and clear, Tracy would have said they enjoyed it in the long run. They may have been lower class women and that was acceptable but still ... I don't like it. The fact that he intends to marry Diana doesn't make it better. He makes me sick and I was horrified he got away with abduction and sexual harassment. Jack should have stayed a highwayman just to get revenge on Tracy. Dick was an idiot, Lavinia was an idiot and I wanted to bang their heads together and make them talk. She turned out OK in the long run. I loved Miles and Molly O'Hara! They're so cute and fun! I want to hang out with them.
Overall, I enjoyed this more than I did on my first read. It was just the right amount of escapism.
Elliot wrote: "Jenny wrote: "Yes, and it ties in with what we discussed earlier, about Jack casually committing armed robbery for fun. I don't think she was really thinking through the consequences of these light..."When I was a kid I was enthralled with Alfred Noyes' poem, The Highwayman! I still get goosebumps...
QNPoohBear wrote: "I enjoyed the thrilling conclusion but wow Tracy is utterly despicable. I don't think it was acceptable to rape gently bred young ladies, even in the Georgian era. He's obviously done this before a..."I didn’t really like any of the characters in this book, except Miles and Molly. So true what you say about Tracy, I was appalled not only by his actions past and present, but also by the fact that Jack could overlook them unless the victim happened to be someone in whom he took a personal interest. Even then, they all sit down to dinner all civilised afterwards?! No, just no.
Dick and Lavinia pretty much deserved each other, although their reconciliation had its moments.
Julie wrote: "I was appalled not only by his actions past and present, but also by the fact that Jack could overlook them unless the victim happened to be someone in whom he took a personal interest. Even then, they all sit down to dinner all civilised afterwards?! No, just no.I felt the same way. It ruined the ending. Tracy says he already dined and not to set the table for him. I don't think that would be acceptable in the Georgian era unless Tracy was ravishing the peasant women on his own estates or other lower class women. They would overlook that.
I thought Diana's father should have come along in the curricle to bring her somewhere safe under his protection so she didn't have to spend the night at the scene of her trauma. Why would he let her stay there with all men who are not related, even if she has an understanding with Jack? I am glad people enjoyed this novel back in the day so she could go on to publish her Regencies!
I thought Diana's father should have come along in the curricle to bring her somewhere safe under his protection so she didn't have to spend the night at the scene of her trauma. Why would he let her stay there with all men who are not related, even if she has an understanding with Jack? I am glad people enjoyed this novel back in the day so she could go on to publish her Regencies!That is a good point. Another sign of GH's own innocence maybe.
As I said further up the thread, I think Heyer’s innocence aged 17 is on show throughout the book. She has no knowledge of married love so isn’t even able to explain why Richard might be so obsessed with Lavinia. Her attitude to Tracy is just one illustration of her naivety and lack of experience. No woman today would think rape ever acceptable under any circumstances. Perhaps she didn’t realise what she was implying when she referenced previous women crying? Not defending this at all! but perhaps she was reflecting the prevalent view that forced kisses would eventually lead to consensual sex? I wonder if she had read ‘the Sheikh’ when she wrote this? Hard to know what was going on inside her head.
Certainly the whole ‘threat of rape’ thing and the apparently ‘civilised’ sitting down to dinner at the end throws us totally out of the story because it seems so utterly bizarre and unacceptable. Again - Heyer’s 17 year old naivety made a huge error in writing this.
If you can get hold of Instead of the Thorn, GH was very young when she wrote that & it is revealing about (view spoiler) Helen, which I really didn't like, is also believed to be at least partially autobiographical.
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "If you can get hold of Instead of the Thorn, GH was very young when she wrote that & it is revealing about [spoilers removed] Helen, which I really didn't like, is also believed to be at least part..."Yes, I managed to get a copy of both books years ago. I didn't like either of them. Her awful class consciousness is much better hidden in the historicals than in her contemporary novels; it kind of affected my attitude towards Heyer for a while. Certainly as you say they were very revealing about her other attitudes too.
Yes I couldn't read GH for 8 years after reading Helen, but I thought Thorn was a good book in its way.
Mod
.."
Oh, me too! I once met a man on a folk-singing weekend who'd found or written a tune for it, and it was thrilling to hear him sing it! I bought the picture-book version with Charles Keeping illustrations for the school library I ran, too.
I am also reminded of Tom in The Foundling who (view spoiler)
Jenny wrote: "There's one thing puzzling me about the epilogue: Lavinia's letter describing Jack's homecoming mentions"a monstrous queer Old Man, who was vastly fidgetty and overcome to see Jack".
Do we know we know who this is?..."
Yes, it's the clerk Jack rescued. He holds up a city merchant in the beginning of the novel. Mr. Fudby calls in the authorities who could care less and the clerk, Mr. Chilter, gives a crazy and totally false description of the highwayman who robbed Mr. Fudby. Jack, as Sir Anthony takes Fudby aside and thanks him and gives Fudby his emerald ring. At the end when Jack is restored, he sends for Mr. Fudby.
Next morning Richard went on to Wyncham, and Diana, Jack and O'Hara travelled back to Sussex. Jack would not go home yet. He protested that he was going to be married first, and would then bring home his Countess. But he had several instructions to give his brother concerning the preparation of his house. The last thing he requested Richard to do was to seek out a certain city merchant, Fudby by name, and to rescue a clerk, Chilter, from him, bearing him off to Wyncham. All this he called from the coach window, just before they set off.
Richard led Jenny, whom he was to ride home, up to the door of the vehicle, and expostulated.
"But what in thunder am I to do with the man?"
"Give him to Warburton," advised Jack flippantly. "I know he needs a clerk—he always did!"
"But perhaps he will not desire to come—"
"You do as I tell you!" laughed his brother. "I shall expect to find him at Wyncham when I arrive! Au revoir!" He drew his head in, and the coach rumbled off
Mod
Do we know we know who this is?..."
Yes, it's the clerk Jack rescued...."
Ah yes, it could be. I just didn't think of him as an old man. I suppose I thought a clerk would be younger.
Jenny wrote: "Ah yes, it could be. I just didn't think of him as an old man. I suppose I thought a clerk would be younger."
Not necessarily. He's described as "small and shriveled looking" in the beginning of the novel AND the description of old is coming from Lavinia so how old is old, I don't know. Any unattractive man is probably old to her.
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Carola Oman (other topics)Joanna Cannan (other topics)
Didn't she write this to "amuse" one of her brothers, who was sick at the time? Or am I completely making this up?