Little Dorrit: Chapters 1 - 11

[Tr1sha]

I’m enjoying this, but have a question. Why were prisoners expected to give money to the Father of the Marshalsea when they left? He was only another prisoner like themselves although he was there longer. As they were debtors, it seems unreasonable to expect them to give money away. Perhaps I missed something?

[Elizabeth A.G.]

There is a lovely relationship between Amy and the turnkey who not only befriends her, but becomes her godfather wanting to make her his beneficiary. In discussing how to protect her potential inheritance from going to anyone else, Dickens is commenting on the legal system that can provide protection with pen and paper edicts, but unable to protect the tender-hearted and vulnerable from being unduly influenced into relinquishing an inheritance because of naivete and a generous nature. As the turnkey fears, "Supposing she was tender-hearted, and they came over her. Where's your law for tying it up then?" Of course there is no law for that, so the turnkey "thought about it all his life, and died intestate after all." Is there no reward for the tender of heart and the innocent??

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Sara, Milena and Debra - I promise to try to try to give Tip a little more leeway! It us true that we all respond differently to the same circumstances. Different siblings can be completely different in personality, and we all know people who cannot put bad things from their past behind them. That's a wonderful quotation, Milena, where Tip seems to be taking the prison wherever he goes.

I had thought, when I first saw the Arthur Dixon watercolour, that it was over sentimental, but I do think the portrait of Amy, in that attentive attitude, is quite sweet.

[Bookworman]

Great comments everyone! For me, there are two underlying themes of Chapters 6 and 7. The first is being locked up physically and/or by the limitations of a person's mind and how they approach adversity. The second is selfishness and denial of reality which, in the case of Little Dorritt's family, means that the burden of being an adult falls upon the youngest and smallest but really the most mature (or at least practical) and strongest.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Emily - I agree, Bleak House is about the best novel to show how Charles Dickens interweaves all his stories to make a whole. However good a dramatisation is, they never seem to be able to capture this, but will look for a "main story". It's odd really, as films of novels are by their very nature episodic, and soaps have even shorter segments!

I actually did mention Mrs. Jellyby after Chapter 2, when we first met Mr. Meagles, as he has that sort of blinkered air, and is clueless about his own adopted child Tattycoram - and even "neglects" Pet in a way, by spoiling her so that she is forced to be passive and dependent. It could be described as a sort of emotional neglect, I suppose.

As you said, Mrs. Jellyby in Bleak House was a do-gooder, and more bothered about "her" children in an African tribe, than her own neglected ones, right under her nose. Charles Dickens based her on one of his own friends, the philanthropist Caroline Chisholm. He loved to include these hypocritical portraits; exaggerations of those he knew. Yes, it was a favourite theme; some of Charles Dickens's novels contain up to a dozen of these portraits of famous personalities, or his family and friends. It must have been quite a dangerous thing to know Charles Dickens!

Mr. Dorrit and Mr. Micawber and both based on his father John Dickens. Two sides of the same coin, but both highly exaggerated. I'll say a little more, once we know Mr. Dorrit better :)

I'm glad you're enjoying the read Emily, and finding my summaries etc., interesting :)

[Anne]

The discussions of Tip led me to try to understand Dickens better and I started with Googling whether he had siblings. I seem to have found an answer to why, at least in this book, the only son is just like he father:

"Growing up, the family situation was often precarious due to his father's trouble with debt, which landed him in debtors' prison in 1824 when Charles was 12. Later Dickens' own family was marked by strife as his relationship with his wife deteriorated and his sons seemed to have inherited their paternal grandfather's trouble handling finances. Dickens once lamented that he had "brought up the largest family with the smallest disposition for doing anything for themselves." This article goes on to say that Dickens always worried about money.

In sum, he had only sons who had money troubles and did nothing for themselves.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Trisha wrote: "I’m enjoying this, but have a question. Why were prisoners expected to give money to the Father of the Marshalsea when they left? ..."

We were told that this is something Mr. Dorrit encouraged at first, and then positively cultivated! It is based on a sort of snobbery.

Mr. Dorrit was on the Masters side: he was a gentleman. We don't yet know how rich his family had been, but he talked everything up, and hinted that he belonged to an important family, and that of course his present situation was temporary.

Over time, he began to capitalise on the fact that he had been there so long. The turnkey referred to him as the "Father of the Marshalsea", and he liked this, as it sounded like a term of respect. He then began to behave as if he were the President of a great College (the "Collegians" were the prisoners) and his approval of them was something much sought after. He carried this off because he had extremely genteel manners, and everything about him shouted breeding and refinement.

He had a knack of expressing concern and interest in everyone - as if they were his personal servants - and just enough so that they would want him to like them. When he was first given money, he expressed delight and surprise, that whoever gave it recognises that a person like him should not be in such a place, and he called their gifts "testimonials": a testament to his grace and high breeding. The prisoners thought they were lucky to have such a person in their midst, and admired him. His approval of them; his smiles when receiving their "testimonials" was a sort of reflected glory.

I do think the prisoners genuinely liked him, because the whole social system at this time was that they would respect someone who was a gentleman, rather than working for their living.

It's hard to explain: I hope this helps!

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Anne wrote: "Dickens once lamented that he had "brought up the largest family with the smallest disposition for doing anything for themselves."

Excellent point Anne :) Charles Dickens did indeed say this. His relationship with several of his sons was fraught, and I've been wondering which one Tip could be based on. So here's a thumbnail sketch of them all.

Charley - He was Charles Dickens's first child, who was the only child who lived with his mother after Dickens's separation with Catherine in 1858. He married the daughter of Dickens' former publisher, one of the many people with whom Dickens had a falling out. Then after a failed business venture, Charles Dickens hired Charley as sub-editor of "All the Year Round", so there was a sort of reconciliation. It doesn't sound like it's him.

Walter - became a lieutenant in the 42nd Highlanders in India, where he got into debt. He died and his debts were sent home to his father. He's a distinct possibility.

Francis - A month after Walter died, Francis discovered the fact as he had joined the Bengal Mounted Police. He returned to England in 1871, the year after Charles Dickens died.

Alfred - also emigrated - to Australia, where he remained for 45 years. Later he lectured on his father's life and works in England and America, dying in New York on a lecture tour. Apparently he had no money worries! Not him then.

Sydney - joined the Navy, which pleased his father very much. But *sigh*... he got into debt, asking his father for financial aid which Dickens refused. Sydney died at sea. A distinct possibility.

Henry - was called after Henry Fielding. (All Dickens's children are called after writers or actors in part of their names, such as "Alfred D'Orsay Tennyson Dickens".) Henry was apparently the most successful of Dickens children. He became a lawyer and judge, and was eventually knighted in 1922. He also performed readings of Dickens's works and published books on his father's life. Definitely not Henry, I would say.

Edward - nicknamed "Plorn" was named after the novelist Edward Bulwer Lytton. He was Charles Dickens's youngest son, and a favourite. With his father's (strong!) encouragement, Edward emigrated to Australia at the age of 16, and eventually entered politics, serving as a member of the New South Wales Legislative Assembly from 1889 to 1894. He died in poverty at the age of 49. I don't think his personality was at all like Tip's.

"He had only sons who had money troubles and did nothing for themselves" I don't think this is true of them all, Anne, if you see what some of them achieved. Charles Dickens did guide them all with a firm hand though, and those who emigrated really did this because their father thought it was a fine thing to do, with so many opportunities overseas. He agonised over his sons, because, remember he had sole responsibility, having take them all (except Charley) away from their mother.

It's amazing really how many of Charles Dickens's children survived, in an age when infant mortality was so high. There were 3 daughters too, although one did not survive. Anyway, I think Tip could be based on Walter, Francis or Sydney - or possibly an amalgam of all three :)

EDIT: Probably not Francis, who had a respectable career, if you read the piece about him in the "Charles Dickens's family" thread.

[Sara]

Thanks for this run-down on the boys, Jean. He encouraged Edward to emigrate at 16! That says a lot about Dickens to me, that he would toss his son out onto the world at such a young age. I suppose, having been tossed out there himself at a really, really young age, he thought he had given him plenty of time, but I hardly see it that way.

[Tr1sha]

Bionic Jean wrote: "Trisha wrote: "I’m enjoying this, but have a question. Why were prisoners expected to give money to the Father of the Marshalsea when they left? ..."

We were told that this is something Mr. Dorrit..."

Thank you, Jean.

[Anne]

Thank you very much, Jean. Very interesting about all the sons and also that Dickens would say this if it were not true. But in Dickens mind it was true, so that's what matters when it comes to his reality and what he put into his writing. Perhaps with 3 sons "underperforming" he had enough to worry about. I wonder if any of his sons were around 12 yrs old when he was writing Little Dorrit. That could easily bring up his old trauma of seeing his father in debtor's prison and to worry that his own son(s) might be headed there too if he didn't deal with them with a firm hand. It sounds like that was a worry for him whether his boys had money troubles or not.

You mentioned his daughters, but they don't count. Girls, they only need to make a good marriage. :))

[Susan]

I wonder how prisoners did survive in the Marshalsea who had no friends or relatives to give them money. As someone has previously pointed out, it makes no sense to imprison people for debt as they then have no means to make any money to repay those debts.

I’m amazed at Amy’s enterprises to keep the family afloat. If she lived now she’d be one of those self made millionaires by the time she was 22.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Sara wrote: "He encouraged Edward to emigrate at 16! That says a lot about Dickens to me, that he would toss his son out onto the world at such a young age ..."

Yes, I find this inexplicable, especially since Charles Dickens's letters show he worried about him so much! From memory Plorn was undersized, delicate, and not very confident. His father thought it would be good for him.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Anne wrote: "... that Dickens would say this if it were not true ..."

At the time his sons may not have achieved all that we now know they did. Neither would all of them have been born.

I did not include his daughters because I doubt whether Tip would have been based on them. Charles Dickens was justifiably proud of his daughters.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Susan wrote: "I wonder how prisoners did survive in the Marshalsea who had no friends or relatives to give them money ..."

I don't think they did :(

[Susan]

I believe Charles’s brother Augustus was a bit of a “ne’er do well” who flitted from job to job, abandoned his wife and went to America with his pregnant girlfriend.

Tip may be based on him.

[Katy]

Milena wrote: "Sara wrote: "I feel a sympathy for him, because he has been raised in this way and prison life is what he knows and understands...the place he feels comfortable and capable. However, I also feel an..."

Milena, you make a good point about bringing our family home with us when we go away. When someone grows up with hopelessness all around them, it must seem useless to try too hard. By the time Tip had his first job he must have become accustomed to not bothering to exert himself. It is hard to excuse him, though, when he had so many opportunities to improve himself if he only stuck with it.

[Katy]

Anne wrote: "Thank you very much, Jean. Very interesting about all the sons and also that Dickens would say this if it were not true. But in Dickens mind it was true, so that's what matters when it comes to his..."
Perhaps because Dickens was so overly ambitious himself he had unrealistic expectations for his sons. It does sound, though, like a couple of them inherited their grandfather's temperament when it came to money.

[Mark]

Chapter 7 is my favorite so far and it is because of Amy. Little Dorrit is such a tough young woman. Although she's poor, she's managed through hard work and resourcefulness to learn the rudiments of an education. And she's learned a sellable skill, needlework, as well as helping her sister and tried to help her hapless brother Tip. Although she is not worldly wise, she does have her own spirit and is determined to succeed as best she can while helping her family.
And she has filled some of the void of her deceased mother, becoming the head of the family. So she isn't a helpless poor maiden. She is competent, determined, has her own will, and loves her family. Yet she is small in stature and looks very young. That is the contrast with her. Tiny but tough.

[Terris]

In Chapter 7, I liked the description of all the "situations" Tip had tried -- boy! He went around the block a time or two -- or three!! ;)

[Anne]

Terris wrote: "In Chapter 7, I liked the description of all the "situations" Tip had tried -- boy! He went around the block a time or two -- or three!! ;)"

So true, Terris! But I wonder how hard he really tried. Did he really want to get on with something legitimate? My sense, after learning about Dickens' sons and his worries about them being like his father is that Tip will be the child in this story who just want to have a good time and not work too hard

[Ashley]

Sarah, is 16 really that young? With life expectancies shorter than today, would 16 have been a normal age to be on ones own?

[Kathleen]

Amy Dorrit seems very different from the almost elusive Little Dorrit Arthur first saw. Here she is assertive in helping her siblings, not a quiet person almost hiding in the background.

[Ashley]

I’m finally caught up!! I had foot surgery Friday and it’s been hard to read with the pain, but today was better and I was able to get through all the chapters!

This is back a ways, but it’s a theme throughout so I’ll bring it up. You did touch on it some. I felt like the first 3 chapters were moving closer and closer to light. We start in the prison, then to the quarantine, then to the church. But then we get a rather dark portrayal of church and the impact it has had on the characters. So then that didn’t pan out as I expected, but I still find the idea interacting and enjoy his light vs dark. When I read Les Mis last year, the group I read it with began joking how I was obsessed with bringing up the references to light. I’m interested to see how Dickens continues to use this imagery. Since he has a more complicated relationship with religion, I would imagine the light imagery won’t be near as beautiful as Hugos.

Chapter 7 shows us the innocence of Amy as well as her ability to get things done. The imagery of child like empathy and innocence begins in chapter 1 with the jailers daughter and how she sees the prisoners. I will be paying attention to this theme.

I’m still conflicted about the Flintwinchs. Hopefully we will see more of them. It is interesting that as we hear about the ending of the marriage of Arthur’s parents in chapter 3, and the end or soon to be end of their lives, we also get the (not so romantic) story of the beginning of the Flintwinchs marriage and life together. So many juxtapositions in this work!

I’m glad we read the short stories to get a feel for Dickens work with ghosts and the macabre. We’ll see how the dream and box play out!

I also enjoyed the imagery of the flies getting caught in the traps there in the jail in chapter 6. Dickens has a sense of humor!

[Terris]

Anne wrote: "Terris wrote: "In Chapter 7, I liked the description of all the "situations" Tip had tried -- boy! He went around the block a time or two -- or three!! ;)"

So true, Terris! But I wonder how hard h..."

Yes, I totally agree! I don't think he tried at all :(

[Tr1sha]

Ashley wrote: "Sarah, is 16 really that young? With life expectancies shorter than today, would 16 have been a normal age to be on ones own?"

I think 16 was considered much older then. Children started work long before they were 16. Even at the end of World War I children had to leave school to start work at 14 unless their parents could afford to support them. I have a heart-breaking family photo of a “man” on his 14th birthday ready to go to work that day - he looked incredibly young. No chance of further education, he couldn’t accept the scholarship he was offered as he had to contribute to the family income. Unlike now, each child left school without waiting for the end of the school year or even the end of term. It must have been frightening for the younger pupils in a year group seeing each of their friends leave & knowing it would soon be their turn.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Excellent points all! I'd love to discuss some of these in more depth but need to move on to today's chapter (though most of these are continuing themes) so I'll just add a little here first.

Susan - Great point about Charles Dickens's younger brother Augustus, as the time of this novel (1855-6) coincides with the time when Augustus was living in the States with another woman. (He had abandoned his wife, when she went blind.) Since Charles Dickens had tried to help his younger brother, getting him a job with Chapman & Co., (the shipping merchants), and performing in Charles Dickens's amateur theatricals, he might well have felt Augustus had let him down. He would not approve of this, just as he did not approve of his friend Wilkie Collins's not marrying the woman he lived with.

The more I think about this, the more I believe Tip to be an amalgam of all the young men in his family whom Charles Dickens had tried to help, and who did not come up to his expectations.

He had high standards (despite his own private life!) and I agree with Katy and others here, that he expected a little too much with Plorn.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Mark - "tiny but tough I love this! And agree wholeheartedly with all your post :) Except that Amy did not look young, if you mean in facial appearance. When I posted the illustration by James Mahoney, it was (in my opinion) a good rendering of Charles Dickens's description. This is from chapter, 5: the first time we have had a description of Little Dorrit:

"her diminutive figure, small features, and slight spare dress, gave her the appearance of being much younger than she was ... Not that her face was very youthful, for in truth there was more consideration and care in it than naturally belonged to her utmost years; but she was so little and light, so noiseless and shy, and appeared so conscious of being out of place among the three hard elders, that she had all the manner and much of the appearance of a subdued child."

This is very specific; a young demeanour and an old face. I find it memorable and unusual. I do like Amy Dorrit :)

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Ashley - Ouch! I'm glad your surgery is over, and hope you can read lots while you heal.

I like your thoughts about dark and light very much, and yes, Charles Dickens includes many aspects of light in his novels; it is one of his motifs. Whenever Agnes appeared in David Copperfield (which I know you've just read) she seems to have an aura of light around her, or be associated with light.

And we have the opposites, as you picked up, plus the grotesque - those flies always make me shudder too!

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Chapter 8:

Arthur Clennam, curious about Little Dorrit, has followed her home, and is now waiting to ask someone passing by what building it is that she has entered. We read a detailed description of a “dirtily and meanly dressed”, old man who has turned into the courtyard. On being questioned, the old man tells Arthur that this is the Marshalsea Debtors’ Prison. What’s more, he happens to be Frederick Dorrit, the brother of the ‘Father of the Marshalsea’, and Amy’s uncle. He is on his way to visit the family. Arthur asks if anyone can go in, and is told:

“‘Any one can go in,’ replied the old man; plainly adding by the significance of his emphasis, ‘but it is not every one who can go out.’”

Before he allows Arthur to accompany him, Frederick Dorrit requests that Arthur does not divulge anything about Amy working outside the Marshalsea—or in fact anything which is outside the conversation he hears. Many aspects of the family’s lives, he says, are kept secret from the Father of the Marshalsea.



Tom Courtenay as Mr. Edward Dorrit, the 'Father of the Marshalsea'

They climb the stairs, and when Frederick opens a door, Arthur sees Amy warming some meat on a gridiron. This is the very food that she has been given for her own lunch, which no one sees her eat. Now we know the reason: she brings it home for her father’s meal. Arthur is introduced as a friend of Amy’s who wishes to pay his respects to Mr. Dorrit.

Amy is startled and embarrassed to see him, but not so her father:

“He put his black cap on again as he had taken it off, and resumed his own seat. There was a wonderful air of benignity and patronage in his manner. These were the ceremonies with which he received the collegians.”

The Father of the Marshalsea tells Arthur, with great gentility, that “'people who come here desire to offer some little—Testimonial—to the Father of the place.'

To see [Amy’s] hand upon his arm in mute entreaty half-repressed, and her timid little shrinking figure turning away, was to see a sad, sad sight.”

But Mr. Dorrit is in full flight, and will not be stopped. After a while Fanny:

“a pretty girl of a far better figure and much more developed than Little Dorrit, though looking much younger in the face”

and their brother Tip stop in. This is to pick up their clothes which Amy has “mended and made up” for them. However, the bell is ringing, which is the sign that visitors should leave and that the gates will soon be locked:

“… the uncle was anxious to go. ‘Come, Fanny, come, Fanny,’ he said, with his ragged clarionet case under his arm; ‘the lock, child, the lock!’”

They quickly leave, but Arthur stays behind. He wishes “to offer his testimonial to the Father of the Marshalsea, without giving pain to his child” and also to say a few words to Little Dorrit. He apologises for following her, and tells her that he would like to be a friend to her.

On being asked, Amy tells Arthur that she has worked for his mother for about two years, and is grateful for the employment.

But Arthur has stayed too long:

“The inner gate was locked, and the lodge closed”.

He is locked inside the prison. Tip approaches him, and says that he is locked up for debts of his own, but that Amy doesn’t want their father to know. He looks to Amy to make all the family’s decisions. It is raining so Tip helpfully tells Arthur that they will make a bed up for him in the “Snuggery”, a tavern like establishment or coffee house, at the upper end of the prison. Arthur approaches this to find it is a sort of club, and ends up spending the night on two tables which are put together. It makes a reasonable sort of bed, but nevertheless Arthur has a restless night, thinking of Amy, and of the Marshalsea:

“The novelty of the place, the coming upon it without preparation, the sense of being locked up, the remembrance of that room up-stairs, of the two brothers, and above all of the retiring childish form, and the face in which he now saw years of insufficient food, if not of want, kept him waking and unhappy.

Speculations, too, bearing the strangest relations towards the prison, but always concerning the prison, ran like nightmares through his mind while he lay awake.“

His mind begins to try to fathom out if there is a connection here, between his mother and Little Dorrit:

“What if his mother had an old reason she well knew for softening to this poor girl! … What if any act of hers and of his father’s, should have even remotely brought the grey heads of those two brothers so low! … ”

And he imagines his mother saying:

“I admit that I was accessory to that man’s captivity. I have suffered for it in kind. He has decayed in his prison: I in mine. I have paid the penalty.”

[Mark]

Jean, thanks for pointing out about Amy's face.

I was struck by the last part of the sentence..."so little and light...she had all the appearance of a subdued child." So I guess that's what I remembered. The fact that her face showed more care than a child is a nice touch.

[Bookworman]

Mark wrote: "Chapter 7 is my favorite so far and it is because of Amy. Little Dorrit is such a tough young woman. Although she's poor, she's managed through hard work and resourcefulness to learn the rudiments ..."

Me too, Mark. This is the chapter where we see who Amy really is as a person and how much everyone in the family depends on her. The adversity that has made her father and siblings weak has made her strong and resilient. Although she has her own blind side about her father, it's coming from a place of love.

[Connie]

Chapter after chapter, we are seeing people imprisoned. The first chapter is set in a prison. People are quarantined for the plague. Mrs Clennam is imprisoned in her room, ill and perhaps as a penance. Mr Dorrit is imprisoned in the debtor's prison. Tip cannot function in any job outside the prison. Growing up in prison and feeling a sense of duty has imprisoned Little Dorrit. Even Arthur is in an emotional prison because of his terrible childhood and a sense that his family treated people unfairly.

This is a very dark story. The turnkey taking Amy Dorrit to see the countryside was the only light part of the book.

[Jenny]

The most striking part for me was when Amy asked the turnkey if someone locked and unlocked the fields... To realize she is 8 or so years old and can not fathom a world without doors and keys...

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

That's such a poignant image, Jenny.

[Sara]

Connie and Jenny--I love both of your comments. It is indeed a story of prisons, external and internal ones. Even Arthur's despicable mother is self-imprisoned. I could feel the press on Arthur of being inside the prison overnight. He knows he can leave the next day, but he envisions all the things that might prevent that, including what would happen if there were a fire in the night.

Amy steals your heart always thinking for everyone but herself. Giving up her food, paying too much so she can live in the turnkeys house and be near her father, mending and caring for her siblings...she has all the burden of everyone's existence on her shoulders, no wonder she looks older than her years.

[Petra]

I have finally caught up, both in the book and in this thread. I got behind early on and have been working on catching up since then.

I agree that this is a dark story. There are so many walls and shadows. Many of the walls are self-imposed and these people seem constrained in so many ways.
I'm enjoying this story quite a bit. It feels different than other books by Dickens I've read. Much darker, for one, and somehow more secretive.

I haven't got more to add than has already been said. I'm glad to have caught up with this group read.

[Ashley]

Although so many characters are in prison literally and figuratively, we have Amy here who is in many ways NOT in prison. She lives there due to the actions of another, yet she is the only one in her family making the best of it and doesn’t seem to be really imprisoned. She has found a separate life during the day but also has shaped her mind in such a way that she doesn’t feel imprisoned. Other characters are not imprisoned as she is, yet mental they feel that way. The quarantine group is interesting to compare to today. People respond very differently to the various levels of quarantine around the world. Some feel safe and some feel imprisoned for various political and mental reasons. And here in the book it’s the mind of the characters that makes a big difference, in some cases just as much as, in others more so than, the actual prison.

[Elizabeth A.G.]

William Dorrit is certainly not shy about informing Arthur Clennam that visitors often desire to offer some little "Testimonial" - generally Money - and very acceptable to him and a "handsome and delicate action." Poor Amy, who is mortified/embarrassed by her father's not so subtle begging, is described by her friend as a "timid little shrinking figure turning away and a sad, sad sight." Dorrit is unmindful of how his plea for money affects her.

[Milena]

I like the reflections about Amy's attitude towards her family (and life).
Ashley's remark, " She has shaped her mind in such a way that she doesn't feel imprisoned", made me think about the way Dickens described her in chapter 7: "she was inspired to be something.... Shall we speak of the inspiration of a poet or a priest, and not of the heart impelled by love and self-devotion."
He writes about her as somebody who has a strong spiritual element that leads her actions. And her family seem to perceive this feature so much as to accept her self-sacrifice as something normal, and nobody seems to care about her needs, as if she hadn't any.
Speaking about her family, her father who eats her food without worrying about her thinness gets on my nerves. Does he think that his daughter must be some kind of ascetic?
Maybe I'm reading too much in that "inspiration of a poet or a priest". Anyway, I am curious to see how Dickens develips Amy's character.

[Milena]

"develops" and not "develips" in the last line. I'm not at home and I'm trying to use the app.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Ashley - Your comment that Little Dorrit "has shaped her mind in such a way that she doesn’t feel imprisoned. Other characters are not imprisoned as she is, yet mental they feel that way." is a perfect way of describing this :)

Some think this is a dark novel, and in many ways it is but hope shines through in characters like Amy.

Elizabeth - I agree, Mr. Dorrit's unconcern about Amy being so mortified by what amounts to him begging, is one of his flaws. In this way, he is like Mr. Meagles, not noticing Tattycoram's unhappiness, and putting her outbursts down to bad temper.

Do both these characters not see what is under their noses? Or do they see, and choose to ignore it as not convenient to their chosen way of life?

Milena - Yes, Amy giving her small portion of food to her father is shocking. Quite heartbreaking.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Chapter 9:

Arthur wakes to dismal, windy and wet weather. He gets up and paces around for two hours, waiting for the turnkey to unlock the door:

“up and down among the waits of straw and dust and paper, the waste droppings of the pump, and the stray leaves of yesterday’s greens. It was as haggard a view of life as a man need look upon.”

At last the the turnkey lets him out, and all the waiting shabby, nondescript messengers, go-betweens, and errand-bearers of the place go in. Arthur decides he would like to talk to Amy again, while he has the opportunity, so he asks one of those coming in about her. On discovering that the man knows the family, he asks him to give a message to Amy, asking her to meet him at her uncle’s house.

Arthur finds his way as directed, and is admitted by Amy’s uncle. The house is very close, very cluttered, and has an unwholesome smell. Amy’s elder sister Fanny is in the next room. Amy’s uncle says that they would all be lost without Amy, but also adds that she does nothing but her duty. This thought jars with Arthur, as he thinks that the rest of the family should show more gratefulness towards such a self-sacrificing young woman.

When Amy arrives, Arthur asks if he may accompany her to wherever she is going, so that they can talk a little more. He knows that Amy would like to tidy up a bit in this house too, so he pretends to be looking for his walking-stick, thus giving Amy some time to perform various little household duties, such as making the bed and helping her sister dress.

“The morning remained squally, and the streets were miserably muddy, but no rain fell as they walked towards the Iron Bridge.

The little creature seemed so young in his eyes, that there were moments when he found himself thinking of her, if not speaking to her, as if she were a child. Perhaps he seemed as old in her eyes as she seemed young in his.“

Arthur starts asking Amy questions, to try to find out whether there is any sort of old connection between his parent’s business transactions and Mr. Dorrit’s family. Amy seems genuinely puzzled by the suggestion. When Arthur asks about creditors, Amy says that her father has a great many creditors, but that the chief creditor is a Mr. Tite Barnacle, who holds a high position in the Circumlocution Office.

Amy is keen to make Arthur understand how much she loves and admires her father, and says that Arthur must make allowances for someone who has been in the Marshalsea for 25 years. It becomes clear to him, that Amy is proud of her father’s gentlemanly manners, and that he has achieved such an eminent position as the “Father of the Marshalsea”. She also says that she feels an affection for the Marshalsea itself, where she has been cared for, and taught:

“I have known numbers of good, persevering, honest people come there through misfortune. They are almost all kind-hearted to one another.”

She deduces that Arthur may wish to help her father to leave the Marshalsea, but say it is a hopeless case, and that many have made unsuccessful attempts over the years. Also, Amy says:

“it might be anything but a service to him now. People might not think so well of him outside as they do there. He might not be so gently dealt with outside as he is there. He might not be so fit himself for the life outside as he is for that.”

Arthur feels pity for her, and is moved by her sincerity, very aware of:

“having this little, slender, careful creature on his arm. How young she seemed to him, or how old he to her; or what a secret either to the other, in that beginning of the destined interweaving of their stories, matters not here.”

He asks about friends to the family, and Amy tells him of their friend Plornish, the plasterer (the man who tried to give Mr. Dorrit coppers), who lives in Bleeding Heart Yard. Arthur carefully makes a note of Plornish’s address and that of Mr. Tite Barnacle, deciding that he will do his utmost to have at least her brother Edward set free.

Towards the end of the chapter, a large vacant-looking young woman rushes towards them, dropping her basket full of potatoes, and calling “Little mother, little mother!” She is called Maggy, is about 28, but is convinced in her mind that she is just ten years old.



"Little Mother" - Phiz

Maggy used to have a cruel grandmother, who ill-treated her when she was under the influence of drink. When Maggy was ten, she contracted a fever and was sent to the hospital. As a result, Maggy has mentally stayed at this age, ever since that serious illness. Maggy also views the hospital as a heavenly place, as it is the only place where she had ever been shown kindness.

Amy compliments Maggy all the time to Arthur, and Maggy chuckles with delight. As they near the Marshalsea, he watches as Amy goes inside:

“The cage door opened, and when the small bird, reared in captivity, had tamely fluttered in, he saw it shut again; and then he came away.”

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

This chapter 9 is the beginning of the third installment.

Secrets

I found Arthur's musing at the end of the previous chapter illuminating. It was the end of the second installment and both he, and we, are wondering what the puzzle behind the House of Dorrit is.

His mother has put herself inside what is in effect a prison, and he choose to live anywhere - in an Inn - rather than in his family home, because it would be be with her (and we've seen why!)

There are so many secrets here. I can't think of anyone who is not keeping something secret! Even Amy herself is keeping her work secret from her father, although presumably he knows that the money for the food comes from somewhere. He just chooses not to think about it, or ever mention it. He may be locked inside the Marshalsea, but he has no worries; his worries are locked out. Mr. Dorrit just enjoys his celebrity status.

So now with Chapter 9, we have begun the third installment, having been given a while to form our own theories.

Arthur

He chooses an odd way to get to the bottom of this, doesn't he, by following Little Dorrit home? He has no concrete evidence for his suspicions, merely hints and suppositions. But then Arthur is a reticent sort of person, not pushing himself forward, so it fits his personality.

He is obviously sensitive and empathic though, skills which seem lacking in most of these characters! Arthur tried to hide the fact that he was giving money to Amy's father, and now, when he realises that Amy will want to tidy her uncle's house, he pretends to be looking for his walking-stick.

Although he has spoken his mind to his mother, he does not want to rock the boat with this other dysfunctional family, who now have 2 members (including Tip) inside the prison.

We were talking about light and dark, and there are some great examples in today's chapter - including a lovely personification with the very first sentence:

"The morning light was in no hurry to climb the prison wall and look in at the Snuggery windows; and when it did come, it would have been more welcome if it had come alone, instead of bringing a rush of rain with it."

Then a couple of paragraphs later;

"The rain, carried aslant by flaws of wind, blackened that side of the central building which he had visited last evening ..."

There is little light, nor room to breathe inside the Marshalsea. What a fantastic way of reminding us :)

Two new characters: Frederick Dorrit and Maggy. Have we enough information to form an impression of either of them? It did strike me that Little Dorrit said:

Maggy "took pains to improve herself, and to be very attentive and very industrious; and by degrees ... got enough to support herself, and does support herself."

So even Maggie, still a child in her mind, becomes independent, while Amy's father and her brother seem to have perfectly happy doing nothing.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

A little more …

About the Iron Bridge used and favoured by Little Dorrit. In reality this is Southwark Bridge. It was designed by John Rennie, and built in 1815-1819. The bridge consisted of three large cast-iron spans supported by granite piers. It became famous for having the longest cast iron span, 240 feet, ever made.



Southwark - The Iron Bridge

Charles Dickens refers to it as a quiet place, which Little Dorrit likes. This is because crossing the river Thames by the Iron Bridge required payment of a penny toll, whereas the nearby London and Blackfriars bridges had no toll, and were therefore very busy. However, the company running it became bankrupt, and it 1864 was acquired by the “Bridge House Estates”, who made it toll free. The bridge was rebuilt in 1921, still as an an arch bridge. It remains the bridge over the river Thames which has the least traffic.

[ClaraBelle]

I’ve already read Little Dorrit, but I will participate in the discussions! It’s my favorite book by Dickens after A Tale of Two Cities, Oliver Twist, David Copperfield, Great Expectations, and A Christmas Carol! ❤️💚❤️💛🧡

[Nisa]

I couldn't read chapter 8 yesterday so today read 8 and 9 together.
At the end of chapter 8 when Arthur was sleeping in the Marshalsea he remembered something (I added the part in the book) I thought it was what his mother said. I didn't see in the comments and even though I feel like I read it before I couldn't find that sentence in previous chapters. So I'm not sure if I'm right about it.

"When he awoke, and sprang up causelessly frightened, the words were in his ears, as if her voice had slowly spoken them at his pillow, to break his rest: ' He withers away in his prison; I wither away in mine; inexorable justice is done; what do I owe on this score!'"

Who do you think he could be? In my mind firstly John Babtist came but I'm not sure what connection could be with him and Amy . :) Or he just dreamed it up.
Jean, The Iron Bridge seems a great place to have a walk. Thank you for sharing its photo. :)
It is funny, we are learning more about Amy (Little Dorrit) but everything I learned till now made me more curious.

[ClaraBelle]

Bionic Jean wrote: "A little more …

About the Iron Bridge used and favoured by Little Dorrit. In reality this is Southwark Bridge. It was designed by John Rennie, and built in 1815-1819. The bridge consisted of three..."

So cool! Thank you for sharing!

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

That's great, Clarabelle! We are on chapter 9, so plenty of time to remind yourself and catch up :)

[Connie]

Nisa, that's a great sentence that ends Chapter 8. I thought Arthur was referring to Mr Dorrit since he just visited him. It's interesting that he uses the term "inexorable," and has us wondering why it's unstoppable justice. Why couldn't Arthur's mother just forgive, or repay the debt herself if her conscience is bothering her? It does have the effect of a cliffhanger sparking our imaginations.