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Little Dorrit
Little Dorrit - Group Read 2
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Little Dorrit: Chapters 1 - 11
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Luffy...People who are in denial, like the Meagles, are quite capable of ignoring what’s right under their noses if it doesn’t accord with their view of how things should be. Hence they are clueless about Tattycoram’s real feelings. This may make them evil by default rather than by intention. So I would agree that they probably aren’t the good people they consider themselves to be.
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Mona wrote: "Luffy...People who are in denial, like the Meagles, are quite capable of ignoring what’s right under their noses if it doesn’t accord with their view of how things should be. Hence they are clueles..."From what I have experienced, I'd say unfortunately that I disagree. There are people capable of evil living under my own roof. But I suppose I better not go on in case I become belligerent. I'm on thin ice as it is. Let me just say that this denial has no roots and it comes out of the blue.
I was watching a special about the filming of Downton Abbey and the remark was made that things were said in front of the servants that would never have been whispered in earshot of their peers because they were so accustomed to the servants' presence they failed to think of them in that way. I think it would be the same for the Meagles in regard to Tatty. They don't think of her in terms of "how she is feeling" or "what she is thinking", only in terms of "what they have done for her" and "what she should be doing for them." They aren't actively saying to themselves they will ignore her or mistreat her, they just don't consider her feelings important enough to think of them at all, and when she displays them, they dismiss it as a temper brought on by her former circumstances, because what would she have to complain of now, since they are so terribly good to her.
I was considering the servant question. There seems to be a general feeling that servants, particularly ones brought into homes from difficult circumstances, should be grateful for their “improved” circumstances. Most masters & mistresses were oblivious to the simmering resentment of many servants. Everyone had their place, a “caste” system if you will, and the people on top were quite content with it, but the strictures were stringent upon the servants. The class system made it hard for anyone with an independent streak, or ambition, to break free. I recently read Belgravia and the desires of the servants to make extra money, or to get their”own back” after years of frustration and being taken for granted led to everything from corruption in the housekeeping accounts to betrayal of family secrets. Servants who are closest to the family can do the most harm, and I feel a hint of this in Tattycoram. A side note on Rigaud—Dickens rarely introduces a character of such ilk without purpose. Supposedly dead people pop back up in different guises, and so it is always wise to look for familiar physical traits and personality quirks in characters who turn up later in the narrative. Dickens had the benefit of time between publication of the serials, so the readers would lose track of certain characters and be surprised with their reemergence into the plot some time later.
I find it interesting that the title character, Dorrit, is introduced through Arthur's asking about her. He has seen her but we, the reader, have not. We are then told that she is nothing to be considered (more or less) , but given that she is title character I'm sure that is not so.
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Yes, chapter 1 especially, seems almost "tacked on" and it's only later we realise where it is going. But what you read in the blurb will make sense tomorrow. I hope it didn't tell you too much!
I'm so glad you're joining in Nisa, even if it wasn't your choice :)
Bionic Jean wrote: "Nisa wrote: "I read Little Dorrit's blurb before voting ... Just with chapter 3 we met Little Dorrit :). I am really curious about how we will meet again the characters from chapter 1 and 2"Thank you, Jean. Even they are not my choice I would like to join this group read as much as I could. I enjoy so much to miss it. I was curious about Diken's Books for while after I read some of your Dicken reviews :). But I'm glad I began to read as a group reads here.
Before that I began to read Bleak house but couldn't finish it because I became busy at that time too.
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Yes! Good comparison :) And I agree Mr. Meagles is more sympathetic, in a way. Hard Times is a fantastic book, but it is so short that Charles Dickens didn't really have much chance to be very subtle or nuanced with his characters.
I'm delighted you're joining in this read, Stephen :)
"Is it possible to have a separate thread for each chapter?" No, sorry. That would mean 70 threads for this one novel!
Even if you split it into installments that still means 20 threads. And as soon as people start commenting they get out of order, with the latest comment meaning that that thread comes to the top, and unless I set the number of exposed threads at a ridiculously high number, many would be hidden.
Various groups organise their reads in different ways. I'm afraid there is no simple answer; Goodreads is a bit basic in some ways. You'll just have to scroll - or read the posts!
You can tell where each chapter starts, as I do head each chapter summary, and I also make sure I put an illustration in each chapter, for all those who prefer to skip it. (It's followed by my personal reactions, and perhaps "a little more" which is factual: background or research.) Then everyone's comments and discussion - every day. This helps us to navigate.
I'll probably spilt Little Dorrit into 6 threads. We had 4 threads for David Copperfield, and they were huge!
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You like Mr. Bumble the beadle? My goodness! Although on reflection ...
He's such a great comic creation, and I love the scenes where (view spoiler)
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Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
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Oh yes, the stultifying darkness is there both in Arthur and in the house! It just sort of seeps through. Marvellous :)
I've just read the essay by G.K. Chesterton, and it has a couple more pertinent points, but it's better to keep those for later on. And sadly, he doesn't like this novel as much as I do :(
The religious hypocrisy is always there in one of two of Charles Dickens's characters. And I feel this is universally recognisable, whatever your religion, or even if you have none. Charles Dickens can be read by all :)
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Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
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Around the Edwardian era, and the rise of Industrialisation, some servants began to question what amounted to "ownership" and strike out for independence.
Charles Dickens is very good at showing us conflicted people in the early Industrial Age, nostalgically harking back to stability and what was good, and looking forward to what might be better, but only achieved through dismantling of the past.
A very accurate portrayal of this in the servants' sphere, was the excellent long-running TV series "Upstairs Downstairs", written by notable authors, and which concentrated on both social classes, (though a little more on the "downstairs" people: servants.)
Anne - yes :)
Sara wrote: "I was watching a special about the filming of Downton Abbey and the remark was made that things were said in front of the servants that would never have been whispered in earshot of their peers bec..."Would you say that they are unaware of the servants's plight and their feelings or do they rather intentionally disregard them because they decided to objectify a person? The mere decision to see this as a service and a business transaction is the very antithesis to humanism.
Jean, yes I do like Mr. Bumble for his sheer ridiculousness and how Charles Dickens made him a pure satire of beedles.So far, Arthur Clennam and Miss Wade are the characters I am most interested in.
On a side note, Jean, maybe you could make the first comment on the next thread a list of what comment number your chapter summeries are? That may be a good compromise as to what Stephan suggested for organization?
I did not expect this chapter to start with Arthur Clennam. He was such a background character that I did not pay much attention to him. And, yes, as Jean said, a dark chapter. This chapter has various prisons.
- The closet Authur was put in as a child.
- Authur's mother in her room. A prison of her own making.
- Affery in a marriage not of her chosing.
- Authur working in his father's business. (Did Dickens say what the business was?)
- Even the furniture. Old and neglected, put in that awful room.
Here is my favorite part: "....and a bedstead with four bare atomies of posts, each terminating in a spike, as if for the dismal accommodation of lodgers who might prefer to impale themselves."
Still waiting for the man with the mustache to reappear. Will he?Anne, I also thought that was an interesting way to introduce Dorrit.
Unlike the previous descriptions and narratives given for others in the story so far, here at a few points we are told what Arthur is thinking, wishing, or remembering. About his remembrances of his harsh puritanical upbringing (the closet, book readings). We also are told that a week back when in Marseilles, the pretty face of Pet had reminded him of a past love (who Affery mentioned), and has some moments of quiet reflection about it. So Dickens lets us see some of Arthur's inner life in this chapter. Unlike all the other characters so far.
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Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
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Jenny, I don't want to be negative, and in theory it's a good idea. But I honestly can't spend any more hours on this than I do, and I help everyone as much as I can, by inserting the illustrations. Even they take a long time to locate and put in the proper place for uploading and linking.
If you make a note of them all and message me at the time, I can try this. But if anyone leaves and deletes their comments, they will all be inaccurate. I really don't see the problem with scrolling. It takes seconds!
Jean, I think everything is fine as it is. I appreciate all the work you put into this and there was no problem for anyone in the previous read. Just mark the discussion to "all emails" and you will get the comments as they are entered and you will never have any problem locating the chapter changes.And now back to the discussion:
This house reeks of evil and poor Arthur's childhood would be testimony enough. The servants are spooky, lingering in darkness and appearing out of nowhere, but the mother is the worst! I'm wondering what significance is going to be affixed to the watch...one of those details that must mean something. I'm not guessing that the father was having love thoughts about the mother when he made his deathbed request.
Debra--I love the quote! Although if anyone ended up impaled on one of them, I would not jump to the conclusion that it was suicide. :)
This chapter wouldn't be lost in an horror story, very atmospheric.It was interesting to learn the dynamic of the Clennams family when we learned the father had died in the previous chapter, I had thought Arthur was alone in the East and his parents both in England, I'm a little curious about the separation of the parents and what the watch means.
The notes for the Penguin Classics (I changed edition going for an ebook, it's easier on the eyes) explain the controversy of the Sunday that was going on at the time; there was only a day a week that people could have a rest and there was nothing to do on that day, Dickens and some of his contemporaries wanted to open museums and some other places so that the common man could have a little entertainment on his day off. With everything open on Sundays here (Québec, Canada) it's a good reminder that it wasn't always so.
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Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
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As you say, Charles Dickens was aghast that poor people had no chance for entertainment, as they worked from before breakfast until bedtime 6 days a week with the only time off to go to church. As I remember, he thought they could worship in the morning and evening of Sunday, and "play" in the afternoon. But his request was not popular.
This chapter is very "gothic" isn't it? It even makes me think a little of Miss Havisham, a much later creation. Timepieces are always significant, although we haven't been told this one has stopped at a particular moment.
Thank you Sara!
I seem to remember starting to watch one of the BBC/PBS versions of this and it started with this chapter. Everything was dark, silent except the ticking of the clock, and Arthur just came in, waited for his mother and looked around. This went on for some minutes and my daughter started laughing at how I could want to watch something like that. But it does make sense in establishing a sense of gloom and oppressive monotony. Arthur is interesting in not being as self-motivated as some other Dickens characters. But I have known people who limited themselves because of expectations of their parents or others.
Debra stated: "I did not expect this chapter to begin with Arthur Clennam. He was such a background character..."I didn't get the impression that Arthur Clennam is such a background character. Dickens makes great effort at presenting Clennam's state of mind; both in having this character declaring in his own voice in chapter 2 how he was exiled as a child, unable to make his own choices, forced into labor, his will broken and then telling us the real cause of his current psychological state - "a hard father and mother" who gave severe discipline and punishment, and an unforgiving religion that provided no comfort in this world or anticipation of it in the next. His childhood was devoid of grace or gentleness. Then in chapter 3 the focus is again on Clennam as he arrives home in London which mirrors his own darkness and misery and to his childhood home where "nothing [has} changed."
While Clennams is caught in his own psychological prison at the moment, Dickens hints that a reawakening is still possible for him when we find that he had some hope of a better reception - he "had not quite given up all hopeful yearnings yet."
There is some mystery that needs to be revealed about his father's watch when we hear Clemmans state, "I never knew my father to show much anxiety on any subject, as that his watch should be sent to you." Why such anxiety? and we finally discover Little Dorritt in the home. The mention of his former female friend who is widowed, rich and available -- leaves Clennam to his dreams.
Dickens spends much effort on Clennam's situation and I can't believe he will turn out to be a
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I agree - but did someone say he was? Perhaps I missed it.
Robin - I think that was the 1987 dramatisation with Derek Jacobi doing all the sighing :) I did prefer him in the role. And there's another great bit of waiting ... but I can't say where just yet!
Yes, Elizabeth. I see your point. I will rethink Clennam now. I just remember at the end of chapter two, I completely dismissed him. After reading chapter three, I see he will have a bigger role than I thought.
Bionic Jean wrote: "Elizabeth A.G. wrote: "Dickens spends much effort on Clennam's situation and I can't believe he will turn out to be a minor character. There is too much mystery here..."I agree - but did someone ..."
Debra, in message 214, stated she thought him a background character from her reading of chapter 2 - she may have changed her opinion after reading chapter 3?? Even in chapter 2, as I wrote, his situation takes him front stage in my opinion and there is a sadness and mystery about him that makes him a principal focus, not in the background.
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Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
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It's quite difficult to put a passive character into a prominent role ... they may fade into the background as the action happens round them. Actually quite a few of Charles Dickens' main characters seem to be relatively inactive; they respond to events, rather than instigate them. Some critics dislike this.
But whether or not Arthur Clennam turns out to be the "hero of my own life" (as someone else once said to us recently) or not, Charles Dickens is certainly not letting him fade into obscurity, because although he hasn't done much yet, all his inner thoughts are described to us, as Elizabeth has put so well.
Anne wrote: "I find it interesting that the title character, Dorrit, is introduced through Arthur's asking about her. He has seen her but we, the reader, have not. We are then told that she is nothing to be con..."Excellent point... that Little Dorrit is "nobody". Well spotted, Anne!
OK. So my favorite quote from Chapter 2 is from Affery who says when describing her marriage to Flintwinch, "Why, if it had been - a smothering instead of a wedding, I couldn't have said a word upon it, against them two clever ones."
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Little Dorrit is certainly one "nobody" but Charles Dickens is good at giving us nobodies. There may be others.
Haven’t started yet and probably won’t before the weekend. But I’ll catch up and then read a chapter a day like you all. I’ve read this before so I’ve skimmed over the comments so far and can be ready to start on Saturday :)
Jeremiah Flintwinch reminds me a bit of Uriah Heep. Both are rather creepy, and sinister looking and bullies who seek power and control over others. While Uriah Heep hides his ambition in a self deprecating way (at least at first) by slithering his way to a higher position, Flintwinch purposely goes above his "station" in the household in the disrespectful way he treats Arthur and demandingly gives orders to Affery, the maid who had been persuaded (forced) to marry him.. Affery also tells us and Arthur how Jeremiah interacts with Mrs. Clennam - "oh, he's a clever one! - he gives it to her when he
has a mind to't, he does!
...It makes me shake head to foot, to hear him give
it her. Jeremiah Flintwinch can conquer even
your mother. What can he be but a clever one
to do that!"
Elizabeth A.G. wrote: "Jeremiah Flintwinch reminds me a bit of Uriah Heep. Both are rather creepy, and sinister looking and bullies who seek power and control over others. While Uriah Heep hides his ambition in a self de..."Great comparison, Elizabeth. There are a lot of similarities. Never occurred to me before but that's why I'm doing this Group read. Yay!
What surprised me about Jeremiah Flintwinch is that he uses Arthur's first name without a Mister or anything for a servant that seems a little weird. I don't know if it has to do with Clennam's parents religion that maybe everybody is equal? But that's something I wondered about reading it.
Bookworman wrote: "OK. So my favorite quote from Chapter 2 is from Affery who says when describing her marriage to Flintwinch, "Why, if it had been - a smothering instead of a wedding, I couldn't have said a word upo..."Me too! What a great/funny quote...although of course it’s dark humor with a tragic undertone.
France Andree, thats a good point! I had noticed it, but as he does call him "Master Arthur" the first time he addresses him by name, I did not think much of it, other than it being a way to put him in his place, as an overlooked, powerless chikd
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Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
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France-Andrée and Jenny - yes, well spotted about how Flintwinch addresses Arthur. No, the religion would not have anything to do with it, although it fits in very well with Elizabeth's surmise that he is a bit like Uriah Heep. Although Flintwinch's demeanour is not at all similar to Uriah's unctuous grovelling, his devious plotting and machinations may well be: time will tell. And his posture is a little odd too. Remember the part I quoted in the summary:
“His head was awry, and he had a one-sided, crab-like way with him, as if his foundations had yielded at about the same time as those of the house, and he ought to have been propped up in a similar manner.”
It's great as an example of Charles Dickens's quirky humour (nobody else could have written it!) but also tells us about Flintwinch's odd posture.
Plus he was described as not only a servant, but also a clerk, which makes his position more flexible. Clearly he has wormed his way into being a trusted advisor to Mrs. Clennam, and thus having more power, by the fact that Affery talks about "them two clever ones".
Using "Master Arthur" could be accidental - an old habit - because he has known Arthur all his life. But we know it isn't! Like Uriah Heep, he is doing this as a deliberate way of reminding Arthur of his position. It is over-familiar, and since Arthur is now forty, it is an insult to (what should now be) the master of the house. But Flintwinch calculates correctly, that he could get away with pretending that it was a skip of the tongue, because Arthur is too mild-mannered to correct him
We also know Affery has been bullied into marrying Flintwinch ... and there's much more about the two of them in today's chapter :)
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Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
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“Mrs. Flintwinch Has a Dream”—or does she? Even Affery herself is not sure.
Affery retires to bed as usual, but Jeremiah Flintwinch does not appear. Affery sleeps, and thinks she must have slept for several hours, by how much the candle has burned down. Surprised that her husband has not yet come to bed, she sets off downstairs to look for him. Affery does not think she is dreaming, as she does not glide downstairs, as in dreams, but feels her way in the dark.
She can see a light coming from a little room next to the front door, which is never used, so she follows it. But what she sees makes her feel quite giddy:
“Mr Flintwinch awake, was watching Mr Flintwinch asleep.”
There are two of them, each a mirror image of the other!
Mrs Flintwinch has a dream by James Mahoney
As Affery watches, one of the Flintwinches lunges at the other to wake him up, complaining that he had rested for two hours: far longer than he had said he needed.
Eventually, after further mysterious conversing between the two, the Double leaves, taking with him:
“an iron box some two feet square, which he carried under his arms pretty easily. Jeremiah watched his manner of adjusting it, with jealous eyes; tried it with his hands, to be sure that he had a firm hold of it; bade him for his life be careful what he was about; and then stole out on tiptoe to open the door for him.”
Affery knows what will happen next, and she is very afraid of her husband. So instead of being able to retreat upstairs, she panics, and stands there shock still. Jeremiah is surprised too, and follows her as she back away from him, all the way to their bedchamber. He then grabs her by the throat and shakes her until she is black in the face, telling her to wake up, because, he says, she had been dreaming again.
He also tells her that if she has any more nightmares, and sleepwalks again, it will mean she needs a “physic”. Although Jeremiah has a “friendly grin on his expressive countenance”, when he says: “I’ll give you such a dose, old woman—such a dose!”, both Affery and the reader knows very well that this is a thinly veiled threat. She goes back to bed again.
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Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
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What a lot of characters and situations Charles Dickens has introduced in these 4 chapters. And every single one in some sort of prison, whether literal or in their mind, or the life they have chosen or find themselves in. And some have had a change of name, such as “Pet” and “Tattycoram”, to match their new identity. Now we appear to have one of Dickens’s favourite phenomenons, doppelgängers. But this is Dickens so we can probably expect more confusion over identity, for some of these characters!
I know we often feel sorry for the original readers, forced to read a novel in serial fashion, over a year and a half. On the other hand, there’s plenty here for his readers to ruminate over, for a month, until the next episode.
But we only have to wait until tomorrow :)
Bionic Jean wrote: "I know we often feel sorry for the original readers, forced to read a novel in serial fashion, over a year and a half. On the other hand, there’s plenty here for his readers to ruminate over, for a month, until the next episode."Yes, Jean, it would make to wait harder. When I finish this chapter I really tempted to go on another one (but I achived not to). I can't think being have to wait for a month. I guess if I were to be in his time I would wait until the all story ends. I do that for some series even now. :)
I'm really curious why there are two Mr. Flintwinch. I can't think of any reasonable motive for it. But I'm sure even though Mrs. Flintwinch believes all was real she forces herself to believe it was a dream. Or she is in danger. Things get weirder. :)
This chapter has that eerie atmosphere Dickens captures so well in his ghost stories. Real or unreal. Well, of course, I fall on the side of real. Two of Flinchwinch, as if one were not one too many. Poor Affrey, forced to marry someone she is so deathly afraid of. If I were her, I would be hearing "poison" instead of "physic" when he threatens to "dose" her. I love the previous comparison to Uriah, because Flintwinch gives off the same vibe of sneaky and evil. I would hate to have to wait a month to take this story up again. I wonder what is in the box.
Since starting the book details are coming back to me, but it’s the first time I remembered a chapter well. The set up shows you it has to be reality, but Mrs. Flintwinch will convince herself it isn’t by pure dread of her husband.
Sara, I wonder what is in the box as well! Flintwich is such an unlikable man... Maybe the "other Flintwich" is a twin, or brother close in age... Perhaps the good twin, where Jerimiah is the evil twin? I too was tempted to go ahead, but I'm being good! (for now)
Sara wrote: "Jean, I think everything is fine as it is. I appreciate all the work you put into this and there was no problem for anyone in the previous read. Just mark the discussion to "all emails" and you wil..."I agree with you, Sara- I appreciate all the work Jean is doing on this!
Bionic Jean wrote: "Chapter 4:“Mrs. Flintwinch Has a Dream”—or does she? Even Affery herself is not sure.
Affery retires to bed as usual, but Jeremiah Flintwinch does not appear. Affery sleeps, and thinks she must ..."
Love this picture- isn’t it funny how each our minds work while reading- my “picture” is her going down the stairs to the right and the room is to the right. Opposite of this, but similar in every other way.
Hello everyone. I'm just joining the discussion after starting my reread a couple of days late. There's a selection of illustrations by different artists showing Rigaud and Cavaletto at the start of the book on the Victorian Web - scroll down the page to see the other versionsJust editing this post because Jean pointed out there are spoilers if you read the text on this page - so if you are a first-time reader beware
http://www.victorianweb.org/art/illus...
I think this one by Harry Furniss from 1910 is especially interesting, showing the jailer and the little girl feeding the "Birds"
I also like the one by Sol Eytinge, Jr, which Jean posted earlier.
Phiz's "dark plate" doesn't look very interesting on the Victorian Web page, but I suspect if you can get hold of an old hardback copy it might look a lot more atmospheric. Sadly I don't have an old copy of Little Dorrit!
The illustrations add so much to the text! I love Rigaud's nose hanging out of the bars in this one and those evil-shaped eyes.
Sara wrote: "The illustrations add so much to the text! I love Rigaud's nose hanging out of the bars in this one and those evil-shaped eyes."I agree Sara and it is funny in a some way.
Thank you sharing it Judy.
Thank you Sara and Nisa. Rigaud's nose is like a bird's beak, I think.
Ha! Yes. Which is apt since the child is "feeding the birds".
My, oh my! I do not know what to think of this chapter. ...But I want to know what is the box too.
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