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The Three Lives of James Madison
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WE ARE OPEN - 08/10/20 - PRESIDENTIAL SERIES - DISCUSSION - The Three Lives of James Madison: Genius, Partisan, President
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Sorry to keep talking about Hamilton but I have to share one more thing. I like this part from "Cabinet Battle 2" about the decision on whether to go to War with France.Here is Hamilton speaking to Jefferson:
We signed a treaty with a King whose head is now in a basket
Would you like to take it out and ask it
Should we honor our treaty, King Louis' head
Uh do whatever you want, I'm super dead
So Week Eleven will be Oct 19-25
Chapter Eleven: In the Shade
I'll jump back this week! Maybe Tim, too?
Chapter Eleven: In the Shade
I'll jump back this week! Maybe Tim, too?
I'm in! I set the book aside for a bit but I'll pick it back up.
Chapter Eleven/ "In the Shade" (p. 410-414)
After Madison retired to Montpelier, Adams wrote: “It is marvelous how political plants grow in the shade” (410). He was referring to politicians retiring and then returning to prominence. I wondered if even then there was some advantage to being able to portray one's self as "an outsider"?
https://www.montpelier.org/ Some stunning photos.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montpel...
I found this interesting: "Dolley [born in 1768] brought to Montpelier her younger sister Anna [born in 1779] who “played music and loved to dance” (411). But Dolley couldn’t? “As a Quaker, Dolley was not taught music or dancing” ( p. 384). So I looked up when the father died. 1792. So one might surmise that it was the father who had insisted on the more stringent no music, no dancing rules.
Perhaps Dolley herself, realizing the disadvantage a young woman was at in society without those skills, advocated for her sister. Remember how back in "The President and His Party" chapter, Dolley, in her will, insisted that most of what she left was to go to the education of her son. "I direct that no expense be spared to give him every advantage and improvement of which his talents may be susceptible" ( 386).
After Madison retired to Montpelier, Adams wrote: “It is marvelous how political plants grow in the shade” (410). He was referring to politicians retiring and then returning to prominence. I wondered if even then there was some advantage to being able to portray one's self as "an outsider"?
https://www.montpelier.org/ Some stunning photos.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montpel...
I found this interesting: "Dolley [born in 1768] brought to Montpelier her younger sister Anna [born in 1779] who “played music and loved to dance” (411). But Dolley couldn’t? “As a Quaker, Dolley was not taught music or dancing” ( p. 384). So I looked up when the father died. 1792. So one might surmise that it was the father who had insisted on the more stringent no music, no dancing rules.
Perhaps Dolley herself, realizing the disadvantage a young woman was at in society without those skills, advocated for her sister. Remember how back in "The President and His Party" chapter, Dolley, in her will, insisted that most of what she left was to go to the education of her son. "I direct that no expense be spared to give him every advantage and improvement of which his talents may be susceptible" ( 386).
Chapter Eleven/ "In the Shade" (p. 410-414)
I hadn't been aware the the US-French relationship and deteriorated so far. After the Jay Treaty “Some three hundred US-flagged ships had been taken as prizes by French privateers or naval vessels” (411). There DOES seem to be motivation to build a navy, what with the French and the British taking our ships without much possibility of push-back by the US.
Coup d’etat in France. “…the rise of Napoleon Bonaparte…”
I would like to post a link to a YouTube song here. It ties in somewhat in that it deals with the coup d'etat and Napoleon and the French Revolution. I had run across the song when reading Andrew Roberts' Napoleon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXsZb...
byAndrew Roberts
I hadn't been aware the the US-French relationship and deteriorated so far. After the Jay Treaty “Some three hundred US-flagged ships had been taken as prizes by French privateers or naval vessels” (411). There DOES seem to be motivation to build a navy, what with the French and the British taking our ships without much possibility of push-back by the US.
Coup d’etat in France. “…the rise of Napoleon Bonaparte…”
I would like to post a link to a YouTube song here. It ties in somewhat in that it deals with the coup d'etat and Napoleon and the French Revolution. I had run across the song when reading Andrew Roberts' Napoleon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXsZb...
byAndrew Roberts
Chapter Eleven/ "In the Shade" (p. 410-414)
Talleyrand demands a large bribe. {Did he expect it to be acceptable? "Talleyrand [close friends with Hamilton and Burr] had a strong understanding of American politics" (p. 412).} Pinckney, “No, no, not a six-pence!” I love that he refused the French using an English monetary unit! Not French! OK, it was probably an American monetary unit as well.
The XYZ Affair “enraged a public already angry about French hostilities’ (413). What a great name, eh? Perfect for newspapers. So catchy.
“John Adams never sought a declaration of war against France, and Congress never provided one. “ Undeclared war. There you go. It doesn't seem to me that the Constitution had a smooth mechanism for declaring war. Is there too much power for the president to simply declare war? Is there too much delay in requiring the legislative branch to debate and agree and then declare war from that branch?
Talleyrand demands a large bribe. {Did he expect it to be acceptable? "Talleyrand [close friends with Hamilton and Burr] had a strong understanding of American politics" (p. 412).} Pinckney, “No, no, not a six-pence!” I love that he refused the French using an English monetary unit! Not French! OK, it was probably an American monetary unit as well.
The XYZ Affair “enraged a public already angry about French hostilities’ (413). What a great name, eh? Perfect for newspapers. So catchy.
“John Adams never sought a declaration of war against France, and Congress never provided one. “ Undeclared war. There you go. It doesn't seem to me that the Constitution had a smooth mechanism for declaring war. Is there too much power for the president to simply declare war? Is there too much delay in requiring the legislative branch to debate and agree and then declare war from that branch?
Tim wrote: "Sorry to keep talking about Hamilton but I have to share one more thing. I like this part from "Cabinet Battle 2" about the decision on whether to go to War with France.
Here is Hamilton speaking ..."
Tim, I just went and watched/listened/read the lyrics to "Cabinet Battle.' You might just have gotten me hooked.
EDIT added: I'm not totally taken--- I'm trying to determine how much is spin... But I DO DO appreciate when the facts that we read about in the Feldman book correspond with the fast-paced action and general sense of the play. If I can concentrate on those aspects, it will help me to remember the big events.
Here is Hamilton speaking ..."
Tim, I just went and watched/listened/read the lyrics to "Cabinet Battle.' You might just have gotten me hooked.
EDIT added: I'm not totally taken--- I'm trying to determine how much is spin... But I DO DO appreciate when the facts that we read about in the Feldman book correspond with the fast-paced action and general sense of the play. If I can concentrate on those aspects, it will help me to remember the big events.
It is interesting to think about the modern parallels.Adelle mentions a couple things -
Presidents starting undeclared wars. I had thought of that as a relatively modern issue, but it is interesting that the constitutional intention of making Congress declare war was always difficult to enforce.
The idea of politicians coming in from "the shade" as Adams puts it, so they can reinvent themselves with a new identity.
You could also add warring political factions waging nasty campaigns against each other. I guess that is about as old as this nation. I thought this video (< 2 minutes) was pretty funny. It was made by Reason magazine in 2010, poking some fun of people talking about how nasty politics was getting, by giving some quotes from the election of 1800.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_zTN...
Very prescient of Madison to note this, at an early time in the nations history:Perhaps it is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged against provisions against danger, real or pretended from abroad.
The author notes that this has been true during every war except one. I don't think he said what the exception was? What is it?
Sorry to be dense above, I assume he is referring to the Civil War. Though, even that war had some of the same issues - Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus for instance.
At #159 Tim wrote: some quotes from the election of 1800...."
Thank you, Tim! Yes, them's pretty nasty. One would think, given that the Federalists and Republicans both had pretty clear political philosophies, that they could have argued policy differences and foregone the personal attacks.
Maybe part of it was ADS and JDS ... that political differences so poisoned their personal relationships that the came near to actually hating one another.
Maybe part of it was related to Madison's thinking on the importance of public opinion. -Passions are easier to engage than cool reasoning and high-brow arguments. Personal attacks, too, get a lot more press, sell more papers.
Maybe part of it was that each side so believed in the rightness of their preferred path forward for the country and maybe truly believed that the policy of the other would, in the now classic phrase that originate during the French Revolution, lead us to Hell in a handbasket.
https://www.gingersoftware.com/conten...
Thank you, Tim! Yes, them's pretty nasty. One would think, given that the Federalists and Republicans both had pretty clear political philosophies, that they could have argued policy differences and foregone the personal attacks.
Maybe part of it was ADS and JDS ... that political differences so poisoned their personal relationships that the came near to actually hating one another.
Maybe part of it was related to Madison's thinking on the importance of public opinion. -Passions are easier to engage than cool reasoning and high-brow arguments. Personal attacks, too, get a lot more press, sell more papers.
Maybe part of it was that each side so believed in the rightness of their preferred path forward for the country and maybe truly believed that the policy of the other would, in the now classic phrase that originate during the French Revolution, lead us to Hell in a handbasket.
https://www.gingersoftware.com/conten...
At #160 Tim wrote: "Very prescient of Madison to note this, at an early time in the nations history:
Chapter Eleven: Abominable and Degrading"
Perhaps it is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged against provisions against danger..."
Excellent. I thought that one of the most important sentences in this section. I also made note of
"The sitting vice-president of the United States was proposing that the state legislatures should take action to block federal law from being enforced” (418).
“according to this view”, J’s (418) Ah, yes. Isn't that always the way? Even when both parties can agree on the basic facts --- and they can't --- but even when they can, there's always interpretation, perspective, personal views... What a fascinating, revealing book this is on politics!
The Sedition Act…to silence Repub newspapers. [Twitter/ FB???] “In the best of circumstances, such newspapers relied on the unpredictable demand for subscriptions in order to survive” (415). {That's very today, too. Newspapers need to sell subscriptions or advertising to pay the journalists and investigative reporters.} M muses to J re how susceptible public opinion is to manipulation—esp. re foreign wars. {"Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia.” } And the people less capable judging in this area. And that makes sense. The people don't have easy access to foreign news sources and most people have a less than full understanding of the histories and policies of other nations.
“Adams told his version…” (416). “Madison was disgusted: “a and d’” The very American response of the Republicans: To the courts! To the papers!
According to J's view, it's NOT “We the People,” but We the Co-Equal States…. J revealing himself more of a (western) globalist…turning towards international law… Due in part because J had been living in France and missed the contentious arguments that had been thrashed out and firmed up at the Constitutional Convention?
J argument provides space for states to nullify federal laws. Does this contribute to the Southern states later voting to nolify and withdraw from the Union?
byGeorge Orwell
Chapter Eleven: Abominable and Degrading"
Perhaps it is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged against provisions against danger..."
Excellent. I thought that one of the most important sentences in this section. I also made note of
"The sitting vice-president of the United States was proposing that the state legislatures should take action to block federal law from being enforced” (418).
“according to this view”, J’s (418) Ah, yes. Isn't that always the way? Even when both parties can agree on the basic facts --- and they can't --- but even when they can, there's always interpretation, perspective, personal views... What a fascinating, revealing book this is on politics!
The Sedition Act…to silence Repub newspapers. [Twitter/ FB???] “In the best of circumstances, such newspapers relied on the unpredictable demand for subscriptions in order to survive” (415). {That's very today, too. Newspapers need to sell subscriptions or advertising to pay the journalists and investigative reporters.} M muses to J re how susceptible public opinion is to manipulation—esp. re foreign wars. {"Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia.” } And the people less capable judging in this area. And that makes sense. The people don't have easy access to foreign news sources and most people have a less than full understanding of the histories and policies of other nations.
“Adams told his version…” (416). “Madison was disgusted: “a and d’” The very American response of the Republicans: To the courts! To the papers!
According to J's view, it's NOT “We the People,” but We the Co-Equal States…. J revealing himself more of a (western) globalist…turning towards international law… Due in part because J had been living in France and missed the contentious arguments that had been thrashed out and firmed up at the Constitutional Convention?
J argument provides space for states to nullify federal laws. Does this contribute to the Southern states later voting to nolify and withdraw from the Union?
byGeorge Orwell
Tim and Adele, the fault-lines between North and South were apparent to Madison even as early as the Constitutional Convention. What could he have done to terminate or at least subvert this impending conflict?Regards,
Andrea
It's a tough one, certainly! The two sections had such different economic interests, cultural mores, religious backgrounds. It seems to me that what had served to unite them above their differences was the idea of freedom. The fact that that they had a common opponent/oppressor/{military foe} forged closer bonds between the colonies.
I know this sounds glib, but even now, what holds us together may well be the people's commitment to freedoms and their capacity to try to see the perspectives of others...and to try for compromises that offer something to all parties WITHOUT abandoning their core principles.
When one looks at countries that were formed simply from hammering the various peoples together, it seems those countries only hold together through force.
i think maybe some of the early myths/stories/not-full-disclosure histories of this country were put in place to try to build some coherence... some inter-state bonds.
But even when we open our histories up to show more of the missteps and mistakes and even acknowledge blatant bad policies, still, I think We the People should still be able to hold it together by embracing and aiming for the ideals, the idea of freedoms. We HAVE managed---not always smoothly---to absorb many types of peoples as Americans. They bring their own values with them...but they embrace the basic American value, too, and become Americans. (My husband was an immigrant. He said he was so proud and happy the day he became an American citizen.)
I know this sounds glib, but even now, what holds us together may well be the people's commitment to freedoms and their capacity to try to see the perspectives of others...and to try for compromises that offer something to all parties WITHOUT abandoning their core principles.
When one looks at countries that were formed simply from hammering the various peoples together, it seems those countries only hold together through force.
i think maybe some of the early myths/stories/not-full-disclosure histories of this country were put in place to try to build some coherence... some inter-state bonds.
But even when we open our histories up to show more of the missteps and mistakes and even acknowledge blatant bad policies, still, I think We the People should still be able to hold it together by embracing and aiming for the ideals, the idea of freedoms. We HAVE managed---not always smoothly---to absorb many types of peoples as Americans. They bring their own values with them...but they embrace the basic American value, too, and become Americans. (My husband was an immigrant. He said he was so proud and happy the day he became an American citizen.)
Andrea, that is a tough one.The elephant in the room with this discussion is slavery. Madison was morally flexible on this topic, which actually did help broker compromises, though of course that is less than heroic. Was there a way for him to push harder against slavery while keeping the Union intact? I'm not really sure if that was possible.
That also got me thinking, how long would slavery have lasted had there been no Union? I have no idea. Seems like there are dozens of ways that could have played out.
Adelle wrote [Re Hamilton-The-Play]: "I'm trying to determine how much is spin...."I'm no historian but I spent some time reading about this and it seems like it is pretty accurate. There is some fudging / simplification of some things, but it seems to get the big things right. Though, I don't like that they simplified things to make Madison more of a Jefferson sidekick than someone who was a principal foe and intellectual equal of Hamilton.
Adelle wrote: "But I DO DO appreciate when the facts that we read about in the Feldman book correspond with the fast-paced action and general sense of the play."
Yeah this captures what I love about the musical. I've listened to every song several times by now. I think it is such an incredible piece of work to be able to portray the arguments and drama so vividly. As much as I like reading history books, the musical gives you a sense of how things might have went down if you were watching them with your own eyes, that you just can't get from a book.
At #167 Tim wrote: "
I'm no historian but I spent some time reading about this and it seems like it is pretty accurate. There is some fudging / simplification of some things, but it seems to get the big things right...."
That may be it. I've only listened to the cabinet. VERY catchy.
I'm no historian but I spent some time reading about this and it seems like it is pretty accurate. There is some fudging / simplification of some things, but it seems to get the big things right...."
That may be it. I've only listened to the cabinet. VERY catchy.
Chapter Eleven: "Sedition and Reaction" (p. 421-424)
After the Sedition Act is passed, Lyon is charged, convicted, fined, and imprisoned. I found myself wondering, "Won't this be appealed to a higher court on constitutional grounds?"
"Lyon's defense was to be the unconstitutionality of the Acts, as Jeffersonians saw them as violating the First Amendment to the Constitution. In Lyon's particular case, there was the aforementioned letter to Alden Spooner as well as that of Barlow, which meant Lyon felt entitled to bring up the Constitution's safeguards against ex post facto laws.[41][42] This defense was not allowed." In 1840, Congress voted to reimburse Lyon's heirs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew...
https://history.house.gov/Historical-...
After the Sedition Act is passed, Lyon is charged, convicted, fined, and imprisoned. I found myself wondering, "Won't this be appealed to a higher court on constitutional grounds?"
"Lyon's defense was to be the unconstitutionality of the Acts, as Jeffersonians saw them as violating the First Amendment to the Constitution. In Lyon's particular case, there was the aforementioned letter to Alden Spooner as well as that of Barlow, which meant Lyon felt entitled to bring up the Constitution's safeguards against ex post facto laws.[41][42] This defense was not allowed." In 1840, Congress voted to reimburse Lyon's heirs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew...
https://history.house.gov/Historical-...
It's shocking that the Alien and Sedition Acts were enacted as it is such a clear violation of the constitution.By the way - check this part out from the Wikipedia article about Matthew Lyon Adelle linked to. OMG!
On January 30, 1798, the House was considering whether to remove William Blount of Tennessee from office.[25] Griswold was trying to attract Lyon's attention in order to have a dialogue on the issue, but Lyon was ignoring him on purpose, since they belonged to opposing political parties (Lyon was a Democratic-Republican and Griswold a Federalist).[25] Griswold finally lost his temper and insulted Lyon by calling him a scoundrel, which at the time was considered profanity.[25] Their clash escalated when Lyon declared himself willing to fight for the interest of the common man.[26] Mockingly, Griswold asked if Lyon would be using his wooden sword, a reference to Lyon's supposed dismissal from Gates' command during the Revolution.[27] Furious, Lyon spat tobacco juice on Griswold, earning himself the nickname "The Spitting Lyon".[28][29]
Lyon later apologized to the House as a whole, claiming he had not known it was in session when he confronted Griswold, and meant no breach of decorum or disrespect to the body; he also provided a written letter of apology.[30] Not satisfied with the apology, on February 15, 1798, Griswold retaliated by attacking Lyon with a wooden cane, beating him about the head and shoulders in view of other representatives on the House floor.[25][28] Lyon retreated to a fire pit and defended himself with the tongs until other Congressmen broke up the fight, with several pulling Griswold by his legs to get him to let go of Lyon.[25][28] Although the committee appointed to investigate recommended censure of both Lyon and Griswold, the House as a whole rejected the motion.[31] The issue was resolved when both Lyon and Griswold promised the House that they would keep the peace and remain on good behavior.[32]
Adelle wrote: "I've only listened to the cabinet. VERY catchy.."It's rewarding reading the lyrics after reading the book, as we can catch some subtle stuff.
For instance in Cabinet Battle #1 Hamilton going after Madison for being somewhat sickly / hypochondriacal --
Madison, you're mad as a hatter, son, take your medicine
Damn, you're in worse shape than the national debt is in
That's a cheap shot going after Madison's health, but a good burn! You can picture Hamilton doing that!
Feldman talks about Jefferson's hypocritical attacks on Hamilton's service during the War. Again here is Hamilton in Cabinet Battle 1:
Don't lecture me about the war, you didn't fight in it
You think I'm frightened of you, man?
We almost died in a trench
While you were off getting high with the French
Damn!!
Adelle wrote: "I've only listened to the cabinet. VERY catchy.."It's rewarding reading the lyrics after reading the book, as we can catch some subtle stuff.
For instance in Cabinet Battle #1 Hamilton going after Madison for being somewhat sickly / hypochondriacal --
Madison, you're mad as a hatter, son, take your medicine
Damn, you're in worse shape than the national debt is in
That's a cheap shot going after Madison's health, but a good burn! You can picture Hamilton doing that!
Feldman talks about Jefferson's hypocritical attacks on Hamilton's service during the War. Again here is Hamilton in Cabinet Battle 1:
Don't lecture me about the war, you didn't fight in it
You think I'm frightened of you, man?
We almost died in a trench
While you were off getting high with the French
Damn!!
Tim wrote, "It's rewarding reading the lyrics after reading the book, as we can catch some subtle stuff"
I agree. I think, too, that's what I meant about "spin." Taking some with a grain of salt. For instance, we did read that M often restricted his life-- not much active military service; wouldn't go to Europe. One does wonder whether he really was in poor health. He did after all live a long life. And one wonders, too, whether his compatriots at times deemed him a hypochondriac...especially not serving militarily. The play helps me REMEMBER that he was often in poor health.
And the J passage DID raise questions in my mind. WAS there contemporary scuttlebutt about J being in France during the war rather than on the frontlines... especially in conjunction with his... evacuating... when he was governor of Virginia. So I REMEMBER... J was doing very important work in France... but I think now, too, that many might have seen him differently---especially years later after the French aid the US had received was seen as "a given"...AND American political parties had developed and were deeply divided.
But yes... the catchy toons helped bring all of that to the forefront and locks the big events into my memory.
THANK you, Tim.
I agree. I think, too, that's what I meant about "spin." Taking some with a grain of salt. For instance, we did read that M often restricted his life-- not much active military service; wouldn't go to Europe. One does wonder whether he really was in poor health. He did after all live a long life. And one wonders, too, whether his compatriots at times deemed him a hypochondriac...especially not serving militarily. The play helps me REMEMBER that he was often in poor health.
And the J passage DID raise questions in my mind. WAS there contemporary scuttlebutt about J being in France during the war rather than on the frontlines... especially in conjunction with his... evacuating... when he was governor of Virginia. So I REMEMBER... J was doing very important work in France... but I think now, too, that many might have seen him differently---especially years later after the French aid the US had received was seen as "a given"...AND American political parties had developed and were deeply divided.
But yes... the catchy toons helped bring all of that to the forefront and locks the big events into my memory.
THANK you, Tim.
Chapter Eleven: “Step Forward and Save the Country” (424-427) GW writes to PHenry, “the tranquility of the union, and of this state in particular, is hastening to an awful crisis” (424).
Anticipates close election…’every vote would count.” “Everything depends on it.’
Seemingly one of the earliest Most Important Elections in a Lifetime.
Anticipates close election…’every vote would count.” “Everything depends on it.’
Seemingly one of the earliest Most Important Elections in a Lifetime.
Chapter Eleven: “The Report” (427-430)
M defends 1st Amendment. [Thank you!] Criticism of governments allows the people to judge and to then reelect or not elect. ‘according to the cause or degree of their faults, they should be brought into contempt or disrepute, and incur the hatred of the people.” (429).["hatred of the people, though, does sound a bit much.} The Sedition Act protected incumbents but not new candidates.[Grossly inequitable.] Public opinion as the ultimate guarantor of liberty. “Free speech would be necessary to keep public opinion informed” (429). J and M never closer.
M defends 1st Amendment. [Thank you!] Criticism of governments allows the people to judge and to then reelect or not elect. ‘according to the cause or degree of their faults, they should be brought into contempt or disrepute, and incur the hatred of the people.” (429).["hatred of the people, though, does sound a bit much.} The Sedition Act protected incumbents but not new candidates.[Grossly inequitable.] Public opinion as the ultimate guarantor of liberty. “Free speech would be necessary to keep public opinion informed” (429). J and M never closer.
Chapter Eleven:“ The Prospect” (430-434) Bishop Madison thinks America should not have a single ship… no navy, no army--- the logical end of the Republican argument. How to convince the public? Both 1800 candidates need Pennsylvania. Personal attacks on J. J simply ignores charges. Burr swings NY to J. H tries to swing VP ahead of Adams
Tim, do you have a link for a Hamilton song on this chapter?
Tim, do you have a link for a Hamilton song on this chapter?
Chapter Eleven: "Dénouement" (434-437)
I had only a vague idea of the definition.
the final part of a play, movie, or narrative in which the strands of the plot are drawn together and matters are explained or resolved. Perfect that it's a French word.
Faster communication from France might very likely have resulted in Adams being reelected. My thinking...the Republicans weren't the dominant party any more...they needed a good victory at this time... if Adams had been a 2-term {3? 4?} president, J would never have been a president...and possible neither Madison nor Monroe either. Would Adams have made the deal for the Louisiana Purchase? Anyway... it would have changed history.
73 votes for J and 73 votes for Burr. “Doch!” Well that’s a pretty political pickle.
My only hope here is that House and Burr will be all Spike Lee-like and do the right thing. No way they make Jefferson go thru 36 votes to get to the intended result. Right?
Tim? There MUST be a song for this one, yes?
"Do the Right Thing" Spike Lee movie
I had only a vague idea of the definition.
the final part of a play, movie, or narrative in which the strands of the plot are drawn together and matters are explained or resolved. Perfect that it's a French word.
Faster communication from France might very likely have resulted in Adams being reelected. My thinking...the Republicans weren't the dominant party any more...they needed a good victory at this time... if Adams had been a 2-term {3? 4?} president, J would never have been a president...and possible neither Madison nor Monroe either. Would Adams have made the deal for the Louisiana Purchase? Anyway... it would have changed history.
73 votes for J and 73 votes for Burr. “Doch!” Well that’s a pretty political pickle.
My only hope here is that House and Burr will be all Spike Lee-like and do the right thing. No way they make Jefferson go thru 36 votes to get to the intended result. Right?
Tim? There MUST be a song for this one, yes?
"Do the Right Thing" Spike Lee movie
Yeah, the election of 1800 was an incredible turning point. It seems that if Hamilton could have been more supportive of Adams (and Adams less touchy and more professional), the Federalists would have been in a better position to keep the Presidency. Since a lot of their hatred of each other was over personal issues and not fundamental philosophical disagreements, the whole Adams/Hamilton feud seems avoidable. I wonder how things would have been different.
There is this song from Hamilton - The Election of 1800
https://youtu.be/LnHVFAm0TTk
Tim wrote: "Yeah, the election of 1800 was an incredible turning point. It seems that if Hamilton could have been more supportive of Adams (and Adams less touchy and more professional), the Federalists would h..."
Thank you, Tim for finding and posting the link. Nice recap.
Thank you, Tim for finding and posting the link. Nice recap.
So...Week Twelve will be Oct 26-Nov 1
Chapter Twelve: In the War section: Secretary of State p 443-471
Chapter Twelve: In the War section: Secretary of State p 443-471
Chapter Twelve
J, early example of inauguration speeches to try unite: “We are all Republicans, we are all Federalists."
M’s father dies. Will 13 years old. As legalist and detail-oriented as James Madison was I would have thought he would have discussed this with his father. Very human, though, that he hadn't.
Washington DC…3000 inhabitants.
"To design the new city, Washington chose Major L'Enfant, a Frenchman who had served in the American army during the Revolutionary War. L'Enfant's plans for a vast metropolis with great avenues radiating from key points were so ambitious and expensive, and he was so difficult to work with, that he was dismissed. L'Enfant took his maps and designs with him, but they were partly reconstructed from memory by one of his surveyors, Benjamin Banneker, a free Negro from Maryland." L'Enfant had designed the Capitol to face the rising sun. (History of a Free People, p 187).
(no photo) History of a Free People by Henry W. Bragdon (no photo)
J, early example of inauguration speeches to try unite: “We are all Republicans, we are all Federalists."
M’s father dies. Will 13 years old. As legalist and detail-oriented as James Madison was I would have thought he would have discussed this with his father. Very human, though, that he hadn't.
Washington DC…3000 inhabitants.
"To design the new city, Washington chose Major L'Enfant, a Frenchman who had served in the American army during the Revolutionary War. L'Enfant's plans for a vast metropolis with great avenues radiating from key points were so ambitious and expensive, and he was so difficult to work with, that he was dismissed. L'Enfant took his maps and designs with him, but they were partly reconstructed from memory by one of his surveyors, Benjamin Banneker, a free Negro from Maryland." L'Enfant had designed the Capitol to face the rising sun. (History of a Free People, p 187).
(no photo) History of a Free People by Henry W. Bragdon (no photo)
The Jefferson era begins. Interesting how Jefferson ends up liking some executive power levers Hamilton built in, and his presidency is not as revolutionary as expected. Seems like this is a pattern that would re-appear - Presidents promising to avoid/get us out of war, or reduce spending and debt levels, only to find it is a lot harder to do than they imagined.I am also interested in this chapter to learn more about Jefferson. So far, he is not coming off that great, at least relative to my impressions of him going into this book. He was wrong on some key issues, with Hamilton having more foresight about economics for instance. Some of the stuff he did was downright slimy - like secretively undermining Washington's administration in the press. There is probably more to this than I am aware of though - maybe I'll try a Jefferson biography next.
At 182 Tim wrote: "... Jefferson ends up liking some executive power levers Hamilton built in... reduce spending and debt level.."
Nice observations. Especially buying the Louisiana Purchase. A good move... but increases debt...and pre-presidency would J have thought it within Presidential powers?
Nice observations. Especially buying the Louisiana Purchase. A good move... but increases debt...and pre-presidency would J have thought it within Presidential powers?
Chapter Twelve: "The Pasha" (p 447-449) ]
With no foreign policy experience, not even foreign travel, Madison seems an odd choice for Sect. of State. Maybe M was simply the man J most trusted at this point.
Pasha of Tripoli demands tribute.* * [Kinda makes a US navy seem more of a good idea.] After less than one month in office, M changes his no navy position.
J still likes simple Republican symbolism though. “J deliberately tried to reduce the ceremony surrounding the office of the President…He went on foot to his inauguration…. Not only did he receive the British minister in a dressing gown and carpet slippers, but dressed in faded corduroy overalls, he rode a horse through Washington…” (History of a Free People 190).
I found this of interest. One of the problems J took up in his inaugural address was "Can man be trusted to govern himself? J countered this doubt ... by asking who is good enough to govern someone else. 'Or have we,' he asked sarcastically, 'found angels in the form of kings to govern him?'" {"King" then had much the same meaning that "dictator" has today] (History of a Free People p 190)
*EDIT ADDED: "Between 1789 and 1801 the United States paid [Tripoli] over $2,000,000 in 'protection' for our ships... At the time of the X, Y, Z Affair, when Americans were cheering 'Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute!' a United States warship carried twenty-six barrels of silver dollars to Algiers" (History of a Free People, 196).
Reveled the power of the presidency. US had 4-year war with Tripoli. "There was never a congressional declaration of war" (History of a Free People, 197)
(no image) History of a Free People by Henry W. Bragdon (no photo)
With no foreign policy experience, not even foreign travel, Madison seems an odd choice for Sect. of State. Maybe M was simply the man J most trusted at this point.
Pasha of Tripoli demands tribute.* * [Kinda makes a US navy seem more of a good idea.] After less than one month in office, M changes his no navy position.
J still likes simple Republican symbolism though. “J deliberately tried to reduce the ceremony surrounding the office of the President…He went on foot to his inauguration…. Not only did he receive the British minister in a dressing gown and carpet slippers, but dressed in faded corduroy overalls, he rode a horse through Washington…” (History of a Free People 190).
I found this of interest. One of the problems J took up in his inaugural address was "Can man be trusted to govern himself? J countered this doubt ... by asking who is good enough to govern someone else. 'Or have we,' he asked sarcastically, 'found angels in the form of kings to govern him?'" {"King" then had much the same meaning that "dictator" has today] (History of a Free People p 190)
*EDIT ADDED: "Between 1789 and 1801 the United States paid [Tripoli] over $2,000,000 in 'protection' for our ships... At the time of the X, Y, Z Affair, when Americans were cheering 'Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute!' a United States warship carried twenty-six barrels of silver dollars to Algiers" (History of a Free People, 196).
Reveled the power of the presidency. US had 4-year war with Tripoli. "There was never a congressional declaration of war" (History of a Free People, 197)
(no image) History of a Free People by Henry W. Bragdon (no photo)
Mod
(no image) History of a Free People by Henry W. Bragdon (no photo)
Lorna,
Assisting Moderator (T) - Civil Rights and Supreme Court
Ah! I thought, "THAT doesn't seem right." But I knew not how I should do it. Thanks much for the info.
Mod
Adelle, you are so welcome. Like I said, you were close. It is not often that there are no images for books.
Chapter Twelve: “The Promises of White Folk” (449-452)
When political ideas couldn’t be successfully countered, character attacks were used {Dolley Madison; Sally Hemmings} But remember…J had hired newspaperman Callender attacks on Adams. Callender later digs into J when J didn’t pay Callender’s repayment of fines. More demands. A mess.
When political ideas couldn’t be successfully countered, character attacks were used {Dolley Madison; Sally Hemmings} But remember…J had hired newspaperman Callender attacks on Adams. Callender later digs into J when J didn’t pay Callender’s repayment of fines. More demands. A mess.
Chapter Twelve: “The Domain of France” (452-456)
“the growing power of Napoleon”...he's expanding in Europe...may want to be a presence, too, in Louisiana. But he suffers a set-back in Saint-Domingue which will move him towards offering the Louisiana Purchase for sale. Saint-Domingue [Haiti] “providing enormous revenues for France” (The Three Lives, p 453) “In the eighteenth century its exports…almost equaled in value those of the entire thirteen colonies” (History of a Free People, 197).
1791, French Revolution ideals had inspired slave uprising. Slavery abolished there. 1801, But Napoleon will move to undo.
US sends Livingston to France to try to negotiate access for trade, perhaps West Florida...in case US loses access at New Orleans.
J wrote to Livingston, "'There is on the globe one single spot, the possessor of which is our natural and habitual enemy. It is New Orleans, through which the produce of three-eighths of our territory must pass to market'... If France took possession of New Orleans, wrote J, 'we must marry ourselves to the British fleet and nation'" (History of a Free People, 197).
(no photo) History of a Free People by Henry W. Bragdon (no photo)
“the growing power of Napoleon”...he's expanding in Europe...may want to be a presence, too, in Louisiana. But he suffers a set-back in Saint-Domingue which will move him towards offering the Louisiana Purchase for sale. Saint-Domingue [Haiti] “providing enormous revenues for France” (The Three Lives, p 453) “In the eighteenth century its exports…almost equaled in value those of the entire thirteen colonies” (History of a Free People, 197).
1791, French Revolution ideals had inspired slave uprising. Slavery abolished there. 1801, But Napoleon will move to undo.
US sends Livingston to France to try to negotiate access for trade, perhaps West Florida...in case US loses access at New Orleans.
J wrote to Livingston, "'There is on the globe one single spot, the possessor of which is our natural and habitual enemy. It is New Orleans, through which the produce of three-eighths of our territory must pass to market'... If France took possession of New Orleans, wrote J, 'we must marry ourselves to the British fleet and nation'" (History of a Free People, 197).
(no photo) History of a Free People by Henry W. Bragdon (no photo)
Chapter Twelve: "Great Liberality" (p. 456-459)
M writes that Livingston that the US would be willing to “go high”/”[g]reat liberality” to acquire the Louisiana property—and the Floridas-- from France--- that if Napoleon were to actually take it over, it would greatly affect US/French relations [negatively].
M says find out how much land and how much it would cost. [Good questions] N sends troops to restore slavery on Saint-Domingue…his troops face “the greatest yellow fever outbreak in human history” This changes things for France. J sends Monroe to France to help close the deal.
M writes that Livingston that the US would be willing to “go high”/”[g]reat liberality” to acquire the Louisiana property—and the Floridas-- from France--- that if Napoleon were to actually take it over, it would greatly affect US/French relations [negatively].
M says find out how much land and how much it would cost. [Good questions] N sends troops to restore slavery on Saint-Domingue…his troops face “the greatest yellow fever outbreak in human history” This changes things for France. J sends Monroe to France to help close the deal.
Chapter Thirteen: "Neutrality" (p 472-492)
M now Sect of State again in J's 2nd term. Ponders how to affect foreign policy without war {US has no real military power}.... Comes up with economic sanctions. But it works too slowly and fails.
May 1804, Napoleon crowned himself emperor. Hostilities between B and France increase. Britain seizes 20 US vessels. What up? Monroe=ambassador in London
New economic tactic. Maybe B can get by without American goods for a while, but not the West Indies. Embargo THEM.
Dolley has issues with her knee. M's dilemma: Stay with Dolley or go to DC? Dolley Later in the year: Trafalgar B dominant at sea; N dominant on land. US not dominant at all.
So much not dominant that B stops US ships with impunity. From US perspective, sovereignty is violated when B searches US ships and takes men. B does it anyway.
M…teaching himself international law!!
Randolph…no plan of his own, but good at criticizing. Always easier.
Monroe…his position ‘evolves’ = ok, make me a candidate against M
M: wants B to stop impressing seamen. "The Chesapeake” “Under the norms of maritime law, the warships of one sovereign state did not stop and search those of another neutral sovereign” US is Rodney Dangerfield in eyes of B.
punishment of 500 lashes! Shocking.
US caught between B and F
“It was an irony of J’s presidency that, in its last year, he found himself seeking greater and greater federal power over recalcitrant citizens” (496).
Monroe takes J and M rejection of the treaty personally. Still, I LOVE that he references Don Quixote in his letter. So literate. And knows his reader is as well.
To counter leaks and accusations---that are slanted to make Monroe look good, M asked J to release the entire correspondence. "Read it and weep. Check out the facts for yourself" Political success! Monroe shown as weak. Madison as strong. Madison admits embargo didn't work. Wins election.
M now Sect of State again in J's 2nd term. Ponders how to affect foreign policy without war {US has no real military power}.... Comes up with economic sanctions. But it works too slowly and fails.
May 1804, Napoleon crowned himself emperor. Hostilities between B and France increase. Britain seizes 20 US vessels. What up? Monroe=ambassador in London
New economic tactic. Maybe B can get by without American goods for a while, but not the West Indies. Embargo THEM.
Dolley has issues with her knee. M's dilemma: Stay with Dolley or go to DC? Dolley Later in the year: Trafalgar B dominant at sea; N dominant on land. US not dominant at all.
So much not dominant that B stops US ships with impunity. From US perspective, sovereignty is violated when B searches US ships and takes men. B does it anyway.
M…teaching himself international law!!
Randolph…no plan of his own, but good at criticizing. Always easier.
Monroe…his position ‘evolves’ = ok, make me a candidate against M
M: wants B to stop impressing seamen. "The Chesapeake” “Under the norms of maritime law, the warships of one sovereign state did not stop and search those of another neutral sovereign” US is Rodney Dangerfield in eyes of B.
punishment of 500 lashes! Shocking.
US caught between B and F
“It was an irony of J’s presidency that, in its last year, he found himself seeking greater and greater federal power over recalcitrant citizens” (496).
Monroe takes J and M rejection of the treaty personally. Still, I LOVE that he references Don Quixote in his letter. So literate. And knows his reader is as well.
To counter leaks and accusations---that are slanted to make Monroe look good, M asked J to release the entire correspondence. "Read it and weep. Check out the facts for yourself" Political success! Monroe shown as weak. Madison as strong. Madison admits embargo didn't work. Wins election.
Mod
Week Fourteen: November 9th - November 15th
Chapter Fourteen: President
Week Fifteen: November 16th - November 22nd
Chapter Fifteen: War
Week Sixteen November 23rd - November 29th
Chapter Sixteen: Failure and Redemption
Week Seventeen: November 30th - December 6th
Conclusion: Legacy
Photo Insert
Dedication
Acknowledgments
Notes
Bibliography
By Noah Feldman
About the Author
Ah, completed! My favorite bit from the Failure and Redemption chapter was in the "Ghent" section. The British prime minister had decided to send the Duke of Wellington to command the troops in North America. Wellington, while not refusing to go, says that he would simply sign a peace treaty "and it might as well be signed now."
"When the Battle of Waterloo happened the following June, Wellington would be there---not invading New York from Canada" (602).
And might Napoleon have won had he not faced Wellington at Waterloo?
"When the Battle of Waterloo happened the following June, Wellington would be there---not invading New York from Canada" (602).
And might Napoleon have won had he not faced Wellington at Waterloo?
Mod
Thanks Adelle! I haven't commented lately because I finished the book a while ago and my memory is not so great. What are you reading next? I'm reading the Hoover book that we also have a forum on.
Hi, Tim! I read the Hoover book a few months ago. I found him a complex and totally intriguing man. What drive! What determination. But I don't remember the details well enough to participate in a discussion at this point. I'm reading the other James Madison biography. See what he looks like through a different author's eyes. I think that will be my Main Read for the next few months.
Bentley, a few of my takeaways from this Madison book that I can remark on without giving anything away: I had never appreciated before how important it was to have so many lawyers in the Founding Fathers. Those chapters on the Constitution! How important to craft that with eyes toward details and CLOSE eyes on what MIGHT be flaws.... Fix those holes! Anticipate. Very impressed with Madison's scholarly self-discipline. The country needed someone like him. And yet, you know, it made me sad, too. Because Madison was only able to educate himself full-time decade after decade from early youth because he had the life style of a gentleman plantation owner. Many, many men and women worked so he didn't have to. It is something I thought about while reading and while admiring him... I found the chapters on his presidency interesting: problem after problem after problem. Maybe that's what all presidencies are. And so few clear-cut "solutions." Every decision seemed to consist of weighing pro and cons, balancing one good against another, always aware that no matter WHAT you choose that there are negatives interwoven in. I certainly wouldn't want to be the president!
Mod
Madison must have been a perfectionist And I agree - life was not fair then nor is it now. But at least folks have begun to see the inequities and understand them in today's world; then good people did not understand how life was different for those who were not born into gentility or were slaves.
He did not have an easy time of it for sure - and neither did Hoover who is another president we are spotlighting. But then again most presidents have something in their four or eight years or in the case of FDR - more than the normal two terms which causes them great stress and inner conflict. Wars, depressions, recessions, pandemics, panics, civil unrest, protests, climate change, etc. are all huge pressures on any human being.
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I've made through the end of Book 2 and have been reading the Chernow book on Hamilton.
I have one other random recommendation. I read this a couple years ago, but took the time to re-read parts of it recently and it is really entertaining. I like how Peter Bagge appreciates the complexities of the Founding Fathers, warts and all.
There is one strip in particular about the 1800 election that is relevant to this book that was fun to read - though unfortunately I don't see it available online anywhere.