Shakespeare Fans discussion
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The First Read of 2015: Othello!
Tracy wrote: "James wrote: "Alex wrote: "For a moment I thought "...play not with me at mo." was a line in Othello. Judging distant eras by contemporary standards is always fraught. It's the old Huck Finn dilem..."Tracy, I also don't think of jealousy as being to do only with love relationships. Iago's jealousy though is so different to Othello's. Iago is so cool and calculated and is going for a well executed revenge while Othello can hardly contain himself and feels like his life has lost its meaning.
James wrote: "Haply I think you are right there. I misconstrued 'haply' I think. .."Haply means "by circumstance" or "by chance", is that correct?
Toni Morrison's play Desdeoma was developed in collaboration with Peter Sellars and Rokia Traoré. Her play is set after Shakespeare's showing the dead characters meeting in the afterlife and letting the women speak about their lives and motivation. The play also looks at Othello's and Iago's bonding through their reliance on each other in military actions escpecially rape.On this video, Toni and her collaborators have a fascinating discussion about Shakespeare's play and their play:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79K_h...
This meaning of 'haply' from Shakespeare's Words dictionary:haply (adv.) perhaps, maybe, by chance, with luck
I'm afraid I've gotten a little bit behind in my reading and am just finishing Act 4 today. But I wanted to discuss a section from the very end of the act. It presents a riddle/choice, and I wonder what you all would choose? I quote:DESDEMONA
Wouldst thou do such a deed for all the world?
[note, she's referring to cheating on one's spouse]
EMILIA
Why, would not you?
DESDEMONA
No, by this heavenly light!
EMILIA
Nor I neither by this heavenly light;
I might do't as well i' the dark.
DESDEMONA
Wouldst thou do such a deed for all the world?
EMILIA
The world's a huge thing: it is a great price.
For a small vice.
DESDEMONA
In troth, I think thou wouldst not.
EMILIA
In troth, I think I should; and undo't when I had
done. Marry, I would not do such a thing for a
joint-ring, nor for measures of lawn, nor for
gowns, petticoats, nor caps, nor any petty
exhibition; but for the whole world,--why, who would
not make her husband a cuckold to make him a
monarch? I should venture purgatory for't.
DESDEMONA
Beshrew me, if I would do such a wrong
For the whole world.
EMILIA
Why the wrong is but a wrong i' the world: and
having the world for your labour, tis a wrong in your
own world, and you might quickly make it right.
Emilia makes a pretty good logical/practical argument. Desdemona's is the passionate/moral argument. I love how Desdemona repeats the exact same sentence twice: "Wouldst thou do such a deed for all the world?" as if she is mulling it over, while outright denying it.
Thoughts??
Lea, I loved that conversation. I thought it was very telling, and a great turning point for Emilia -- who is perhaps smarter than she has let on. Shakespeare really gave the women some added dimensions with this exchange. Interesting to note the reward becomes 'the whole world'. (The whole world, not just a petticoat!) It reminds me of the movie 'Indecent Proposal' where Demi Moore's character will get one million dollars for cheating on her husband -- just one time, and with Robert Redford haha. The husband will of course benefit from the money as well. Emilia reminds Desdemona of this. "who would not make her husband a cuckold to make him a monarch?"
Lea wrote: "I'm afraid I've gotten a little bit behind in my reading and am just finishing Act 4 today. But I wanted to discuss a section from the very end of the act. It presents a riddle/choice, and I wond..."I think that's a great speech for outlining Emilia's character quickly. She's basically saying, I may be corrupt, but I'm not cheap. She seems a good match for Iago--she's gotta know what a creep he is.
Mod
Oh my...Act 3 was like grinding through sand.
All of the comments here are so great.
I feel as if Act 3 is a group of sets....about communicating. About observing, and repeating and the characters seem as if they are not at all confident in understanding human body language. I had the strange feeling...that so many of my early questions about iago....were "answered" by the sense of confusion the characters seemed to have about themselves and their own meanings.
I am sure there is a word for what I am thinking of....some sort of cognitive failure to do with body language.
I feel as if Iago...is an opportunist. He's the kid of person who he sees this weakness in the social structure around him. I was very surprised at his attitude towards women. I think he is just utterly bankrupt. The jealousy and revenge he strikes are the last straw of a person who never found the social structure of life or military as rewarding. I can not see him as anything beyond a nihilist.
I am not convinced Iago can feel anything until he ruins it, or destroys it. His emotions are only truly empathetic as he destroys. Like sadism.
Act 3...again...it was so exhausting to read. A al accomplishment of writing and stage direction to keep a hold of the characters. I hd s many idea soft how to play that.
Tracy, ironically you said your students tend to read the lines robotically....I felt they were written that way in Act 3. As I was reading...before I came here and read all the posts...I had this weird dietetic idea to make the dialogues performed robotically!
I would have them move rather constrained...with out being able to perform any body language...as if there was a communication total breakdown....
I see Iago as an opportunist seeing people are ignorant so that is his license to control them....
Mod
Brandon: We killed for the sake of danger and for the sake of killing.
Brandon: Nobody commits a murder just for the experiment of committing it. Nobody except us.
Rupert Cadell: Did you think you were God, Brandon?
Brandon Shaw: Good and evil, right and wrong were invented for the ordinary average man, the inferior man, because he needs them.
Rupert Cadell: After all, murder is - or should be - an art. Not one of the 'seven lively', perhaps, but an art nevertheless. And, as such, the privilege of committing it should be reserved for those few who are really superior individuals.
Brandon Shaw: And the victims: inferior beings whose lives are unimportant anyway.
Mod
But now...I am really wondering if it isn't actually Desdemona who Iago is jealous of. I see a kind of homoerotica in Iago. A love lost with Othello.
Candy wrote: "I am not convinced Iago can feel anything until he ruins it, or destroys it. His emotions are only truly empathetic as he destroys. Like sadism. ..."Great observation, Candy. I completely agree. There is something twisted in him. He is more like a beast than a man.
Candy wrote: "But now...I am really wondering if it isn't actually Desdemona who Iago is jealous of. I see a kind of homoerotica in Iago. A love lost with Othello. ...."
I don't see evidence of it ....???
Candy wrote: "Some lines from the movie ROPE....which I see as having some corrections to iago...Brandon: We killed for the sake of danger and for the sake of killing.
Brandon: Nobody commits a murder just f..."
I think you're on to something here, Candy--Iago's got not a little of that Ubermensch thinking from Nietzsche--just like Brandon.
If it's love lost with Othello, then wouldn't he be jealous of Othello, not Desdemona?I think of jealousy as possessiveness focused on the person "you" feel belongs to you. Iago's feeling toward Desdemona would be envy that she has what he wants.
I do see a latent layer of homoerotic bonding between Iago and Othello in the context of the broad spectrum of homoeroticism which does not necessarily involve overt sexual expression. Iago does feel that Othello has betrayed the bond and loyalty he thought existed between them.
I ended up thinking about this all too much last night and lost some sleep over it. Had to get something down in print this morning but there seemed too much to say.I struggled.Candy, I think the line from Rope that you quoted
" And the victims: inferior beings whose lives are unimportant anyway" is the most telling about Iago and informs what I have written below..
Here is what I wrote this morning on getting up.
Othello, talking to himself in Act 3, scene 3, declares, thinking of Iago:
“This fellow's of exceeding honesty and knows all qualities, with a learned spirit, of human dealings”.
And then later, with a to me obvious nod to Florence's most famous man of the time, Machiavelli,
Cassio muses of Iago: “ I never knew a Florentine more kind and honest”.
So I ask myself how did the audiences of early 17th century England see Iago? Was he a dastardly knave that should be strung up, or was he a very clever and ambitious overlooked man who had an understandable Hate of the Moor?
The Iago and Othello relationship seems to me to be meant by Shakespeare to mirror the relationship of European man to Indigenous man of particularly the New World, but also of the Far East and Africa. For over 100 years prior to the writing of this play Europeans had been mercilously exploiting people around the world for personal and national gain. I quote from Indigenous Peoples of the World: An Introduction to their Past, Present and Future, by Brian Goehring:
“The European invaders used the weaknesses of the indigenous peoples against themselves, promoting civil wars, utilizing deception, cunning, fraud, and whatever subterfuge appeared necessary to accomplish the ends that were ultimately desired”.
And incredibly this was deemed acceptable by many (though certainly not always the Christian church). It was a norm that perhaps many people at the time were in denial about and Shakespeare in this play reflects on that but without moralising.
I suggest that Iago is meant to be respected because though he is sinister and devious, he is not, like Othello, a fool.
I think Othello is fooled but not a fool.I don't think Shakespeare sees his main characters as types. They seem human first. When Shakespeare explores the interplay of his characters' personal and political lives, their emotions, drives and humanity are key.
night music -- bring on the clowns ♫ wrote: "I think Othello is fooled but not a fool.I don't think Shakespeare sees his main characters as types. They seem human first. When Shakespeare explores the interplay of his characters' personal an..."
I agree. Many of the plays back then relied on stereotypes--the villain, the clown, the hero, the young lovers. (Unfortunately, many of today's movies and TV shows rely on the exact same thing.) Shakespeare wrote real people, with real feelings, and complex emotions. Ironically, he may have unintentionally created stereotypes for future generations.
James wrote: " “The European invaders used the weaknesses of the indigenous peoples against themselves, promoting civil wars, utilizing deception, cunning, fraud, and whatever subterfuge appeared necessary to accomplish the ends that were ultimately desired”. And incredibly this was deemed acceptable by many (though certainly not always the Christian church). It was a norm that perhaps many people at the time were in denial about and Shakespeare in this play reflects on that but without moralising...."
I have read about this type of interpretation. Exploration of the New World would have been an obsession of the 17th century audience, and the gross exploitation of natives must have occurred to people. A case has also been made for this in 'The Tempest'. Again, Shakespeare's ability to incorporate a broad world view as well as a personal one.
Mod
Something has been haunting me since Tracy first posted way back early in this topic....Tracy, my impression has been that there is something very significant in the line Iago says about "purse". You mentioned it very early int his topic...and have mentioned it again.
RODERIGO
What say you?
RODERIGO
What is it?
IAGO
No more of drowning, do you hear?
IAGO
No more talk about killing yourself, okay?
RODERIGO
I am changed.
RODERIGO
I’ve changed my mind about that.
Thus do I ever make my fool my purse.
For I mine own gained knowledge should profane
If I would time expend with such a snipe
But for my sport and profit. I hate the Moor,
And it is thought abroad that ’twixt my sheets
He’s done my office. I know not if ’t be true,
But I, for mere suspicion in that kind,
Will do as if for surety. He holds me well.
The better shall my purpose work on him.
Cassio’s a proper man. Let me see now,
and...
Iago:
Good name in man and woman, dear my lord,
Is the immediate jewel of their souls.
Who steals my purse steals trash; 'tis something, nothing;
'Twas mine, 'tis his, and has been slave to thousands;
But he that filches from me my good name
Robs me of that which not enriches him,
And makes me poor indeed.
I am not sure of the significance....but later when the word "cashiered" is used it really stood out to me.
IAGO
370 How poor are they that have not patience!
371 What wound did ever heal but by degrees?
372 Thou know'st we work by wit, and not by witchcraft;
373 And wit depends on dilatory time.
374 Does't not go well? Cassio hath beaten thee.
375 And thou, by that small hurt, hast cashier'd Cassio:
376 Though other things grow fair against the sun,
377 Yet fruits that blossom first will first be ripe:
378 Content thyself awhile. By the mass, 'tis morning;
379 Pleasure and action make the hours seem short.
380 Retire thee; go where thou art billeted:
381 Away, I say; thou shalt know more hereafter:
382 Nay, get thee gone.
Mod
"I do see a latent layer of homoerotic bonding between Iago and Othello in the context of the broad spectrum of homoeroticism which does not necessarily involve overt sexual expression. Iago does feel that Othello has betrayed the bond and loyalty he thought existed between them."
This is the sense of homoeroticism I mean...it isn't a literal kind of sexuality. but the intense subjugated kind of bond between people who have been trained or indoctrinated...through military, educacational or religious institutions. A kind of literary, rather than literal, homoeroticism.
I mean that Iago projects on to Desdemona, and is jealous and coveting, their sexual life. The way he jokes and imagines their (D and O) evening together.
Mod
I'm not sure if this is a trail worth following for the discussion....I realize I could be throwing out too random an association...but I am sensing some kind of link between imago's sense of worth and value....the notion of purse and his love/loyalty warped into Iago....
I am not thinking that Iago is actually gay. But in his psychology somehow there is a misfire. That we may even see in general in some people. The conflation of value and worth...assocated with success or money. defined in material and social status. As if iago....could have his social status "changed" just like a woman does through marriage. (or sexual partnership)
Mod
I am sort of trying to sort that exchange out. I totally don't think I understand the riddle.
Are the women suggesting that there might be a huge "big picture" reason why someone would have an affair? Like a moral reason?
It's a bit like the old movie with Demi Moore and Woody Harrelson and Robert Redford. The idea that Redfords character offers the couple a million dollars if he sleeps with Demi Moore. Is it worth it? To totally change one's life.
(And two...by night...I think they mean....if you knew, absolutely knew you would never be caught would you have an affair?)
And this idea of something that having an affair...in order to achieve a grand prize....is another example of "purse".
When wedding vows are constructed...and the practice of marriage and fidelity is constructed...these kinds of premises like the Demi Moore movie...are already considered. The reason we have loyalty within a marriage is because we already know that is better for the kinds of family and community we enjoy. We enjoy not feeling like we could have anyone in our community steal our loved one....or our property and dowry. Etc. In the large industrial societies....marriage with one spouse is preferred for economic reasons. When industrial societies get too large...and with severe financial crisis we see polygamy. We see polygamy in Russia and Utah because those areas are very stressed financially. It's socially sanctioned to have several wives because it is more economically vaible to share resources between several families united by one male.
Oh here we go this is the movie at IMDB...INDECENT PROPOSAL
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0107211/
Candy wrote: "Side note of sorts....Something has been haunting me since Tracy first posted way back early in this topic....Tracy, my impression has been that there is something very significant in the line I..."
Cashiered I think should equal 'dismissed and disgraced' in the context above Candy. It is a military term and Iago, Cassio. Othello and Rodrigo are all military men.
Leonard Cohen 'the purse beneath the fur' I know. I think that there is another part of Othello (the play) that the word purse is used with several meanings. In the context with Rodrigo above it seems simply to mean that Iago uses Rodrigo for his money and would not otherwise bother with the company of 'such a snipe'.
Mod
Shaming a soldier by cashiering him out, taking away his status is a little like slut-shaming. We take away a woman "value" when we dismiss her as a adulterer or slut.
I'm really just noting some recurring motifs in the play....rather than trying to support a particular essay or argument.
And I am willing to take the risk of being full-of-it or on a wrong tract.....my mind likes to look for patterns....its a compulsion LOL
Mod
It seems "purse" is used 11 times in the play!
http://www.opensourceshakespeare.org/...
I really don't think I would have noticed this unless Tracy had pointed it out the first time. Thank you!
Now what does that mean?
Very interesting Candy about all the "purse" references and all the possible interpretations. I never thought of it as a vagina before, but I get what you are saying. I'll have to think on it now... Thanks for the comments and thoughts!
James wrote: "Candy wrote: "Side note of sorts....Something has been haunting me since Tracy first posted way back early in this topic....Tracy, my impression has been that there is something very significant..."
This looks like a job for...OEDman!
WARNING! 4 columns OED definitions..
1st use is from the French..possibly from "bursa" with the ending "taken as a strong feminine". An earlier meaning was used thus--"pursable" meaning financially able. Also there is an association with hide, leather.
There is also---interesting---a definition that refers to a purse as a live hot coal, starting out of a fire with report (supposedly an omen of good fortune)--"The girls have their omens, purses bounces from the fire, and true love-knots lurked in the bottom of every tea cup." (from Goldsmith)
There is a reference to male genitalia..plus any animal's organ that has the shape of a purse. Plus the whole act of pursing--drawing together in a folded, wrinkled fashion.
Don't think this is too far off your mark--also It might give off the notion that money in the purse then means you can get a man where he lives--through his woman.
I was also wondering if the position of ancient?? had something to do with money--maybe it's where all those ideas about "Honest Iago" come from.
While I have the OED out: Ancient there has two possible sources for meaning. An ancient is 1) a term of respect, used for one of senior rank, a man of experience and therefore wisdom and 2) the rank of Ensign.
Men of Law and Chancery also used the term. I'm making other literary connections : in Henry IV, V Pistol is an ancient. Also there is the Ancient Mariner, which I always took at face value as old, but knowing Coleridge's love of the auld English phrases, I'm guessing he's going for the deeper, time-worn meaning.
If "ancient is a term or position of respect, why does Iago always feel so slighted?
Tracy wrote: "If "ancient is a term or position of respect, why does Iago always feel so slighted? ..."'Ancient' here actually means ensign or standard-bearer -- a rank lower than lieutenant, which was given to Cassio. So Iago has legitimate reason to feel slighted, he WAS slighted.
Candy wrote: "It seems "purse" is used 11 times in the play! Now what does that mean?..."I'd say an obsession with money and women -- money and women make the world go 'round :)
For Iago, the idea that his 'good name' is more important than his 'purse'. (He does not really value his wife, as we notice.) It really is rather ironic. What kind of 'good name' could Iago possibly have, haha!
Mod
Thats a real thing.
It may be from these...Maybe it's associated with PURSY: a puckered appearance....The noun pussy meaning "cat" comes from the Modern English word puss, a conventional name or term of address for a pet cat The Oxford English Dictionary (OED) says that cognates are common to several Germanic languages, including Dutch poes and Middle Low German pūse, which are also used to call a cat. The word puss is attested in English as early as 1533. Earlier etymology is uncertain, but similar words exist in other European languages, including Lithuanian puižė and Irish puisín, both traditional calls to attract a cat.
The words puss and derived forms pussy and pusscat were extended to refer to girls or women by the seventeenth century. This sense of pussy was used to refer specifically to genitalia by the eighteenth century, and from there further extended to refer to sexual intercourse involving a woman by the twentieth century.
Noah Webster, in his original 1828 American Dictionary of the English Language, defined pussy as: "inflated, swelled; hence, fat, short and thick; and as persons of this make labor in respiration, the word is used for short breathed". He gave pursy as a "corrupt orthography" or misspelling of pussy.[6] In 1913, however, Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary reversed the original, suggesting that pussy was a "colloquial or low" variant of pursy. That word, in turn, was defined as "fat and short-breathed", with etymology from Old French pousser "to push".
The Webster's Third International Dictionary points out similarities between pussy in the sense of "vulva" and Low German or Scandinavian words meaning "pocket" or "purse", including Old Norse pūss and Old English pusa.
The medieval French word pucelle, meaning "maiden" or "virgin", is not related to the English word. It is attested in Old French from the ninth century, and likely derives from Latin. The precise Latin source is disputed, with either puella "girl" or pulla "pullet, young female chicken" suggested as earlier sources.
My wandering...is does this have anything to do with the play and the usage in this play....I wonder?
Candy wrote: "Purse really IS an innuendo/slang for vagina. ..."Yes, I had heard that -- purse or billfold in literature can represent female genitalia. Interesting word origins! Also, in Spanish, French and Italian the word for 'whore' is, respectively, 'puta', ''putain' and 'putana'.
I surmise it is no accident the word is used so many times throughout the play. The play itself is obsessed with money and women.
Iago's advice to Rodrigo regarding how he should woo Desdemona:
"Put money in thy purse;
follow thou the wars; defeat thy favour with an usurped beard; I say,
put money in thy purse.
It cannot be that Desdemona should long continue her love to the Moor,—
put money in thy purse, —
nor he his to her: it was a violent commencement, and thou shalt see an answerable sequestration:
put but money in thy purse.
These Moors are changeable in their wills:
fill thy purse with money:
—the food that to him now is as luscious as locusts, shall be to him shortly as bitter as coloquintida. She must change for youth: when she is sated with his body, she will find the error of her choice: she must have change, she must: therefore
put money in thy purse."
Later in the play Iago talks of his 'good name' and how the stealing of his 'purse' would essentially mean nothing to him:
"Who steals my purse steals trash; 'tis something, nothing; 'Twas mine, 'tis his, and has been slave to thousands: But he that filches from me my good name
Robs me of that which not enriches him
And makes me poor indeed."
His 'purse' might mean Emilia, for whom he has no regard. Also, he justifies the fact that he will break up Desdemona and Othello -- it does not matter because the woman (purse, female, c*nt) obviously is 'trash'. I find it quite astonishing that Iago is so deluded he thinks he actually has a 'good name'!
Christine wrote: "Candy wrote: "Purse really IS an innuendo/slang for vagina. ..."Yes, I had heard that -- purse or billfold in literature can represent female genitalia. Interesting word origins! Also, in Spani..."
Yes, that makes it quite clear--all you have got do is exchange a woman's name for purse and the whole motive of Iago is revealed. !!
Normally I would say we are reading too much into it... but the repetition of the word 'purse' is really over the top. Shakespeare, the master of vocabulary, could have easily varied that word... but he didn't.
I've had a re-read, and most of the 'purses' are used by Iago in one conversation with Rodrigo. This is when Iago has promised to set something up with Desdemona and Rod, and that Rod will have to provide Iago with some money. He wants to Rodrigo to liquefy some of his assets and 'put the money in his purse' (so that Iago will have access to it). He keeps repeating this to Rodrigo in an almost hypnotic way. Also I think that 'put money in your purse' means to take a chance, a risk, or even 'put your money where your mouth is'.
Iago can (and does I think) quite rightly judge that Rodrigo is a creep for attempting a serious flirtation with their commander's wife and Iago no problem in fleecing him and outing him too.
James wrote: " Iago can (and does I think) quite rightly judge that Rodrigo is a creep for attempting a serious flirtation with their commander's wife and Iago no problem in fleecing him and outing him too. ..."I don't think Iago is capable or interested in a moral judgement on Rodrigo. He is just happy that Rodrigo's interest in Desdemona will fuel his evil plan.
James wrote: "I've had a re-read, and most of the 'purses' are used by Iago in one conversation with Rodrigo. This is when Iago has promised to set something up with Desdemona and Rod, and that Rod will have to ..."I think it means the opposite of taking a risk, unless you just mean doing an unconventional thing. Rodrigo strikes me as a hothead who needs to be tamed and encouraged to be patient rather than indulge himself. This is what the Machiavellian Iago is preaching--patience. Regardless of the slang meaning intended, he's literally telling him to wait and save it.
Anybody see Othello on Shakepeare Uncovered on PBS this week?http://www.pbs.org/wnet/shakespeare-u...
Blueberry wrote: "Anybody see Othello on Shakepeare Uncovered on PBS this week?http://www.pbs.org/wnet/shakespeare-u..."
Haven't watched it yet. Bought the series on DVD for last year's season 1. Trying to finish that up before I start watching this year's episodes. Was it good Blueberry?
Blueberry wrote: "Anybody see Othello on Shakepeare Uncovered on PBS this week?http://www.pbs.org/wnet/shakespeare-u..."
I did see it. Many interesting insights. The first black man to play Othello on the London stage in I think 1900 lasted only one performance even theough the audience apparently loved it. The critics panned the play and it did not continue even for a day longer. Must be something more to that story.
What did you find most interesting in this program?
I'm coming around to Iago's point of view. His role in the army as an 'ancient', an ensign, is important to understand. As I have read, the name ancient is a corruption of the word ensign and links to the 'ancient' standard that it is the job of the ancient/ensign to carry into battle. In most cases the ensign will be carrying the standard for a company captain but someone has to carry the standard for the commander of the army. This is a special job and is what Iago does as he is Othello's ancient.The job of the standard bearer in battle is most dangerous. He must hold the flag up and not let it down and so he cannot fight. He must be very brave and loyal. It's not a job for everyone and not a job that most soldiers would want.
Iago must be good at it because he is already '7 and twenty years of age', and an ensign can start out as young as 18-19 years of age. It is surprising that he has survived so long in battle given that the standard bearer is an easy target that cannot defend himself without letting the flag down.
Now Iago is a married man and he hears that his wife has been unfaithful with his commander. If this is not enough he also hears that he may have been cuckolded by one of his senior officers Cassio.
And then in port in Cyprus, Cassio kisses Emilia in front of Iago (to rub it in?) and excuses himself by saying:
“Let it not gall your patience, good Iago,
that I extend my manners; 'tis my good breeding
That gives me this bold show of courtesy.”
Later in the play Cassio also rubs it in about his rank when he and Iago are talking about being saved and going to heaven when they die. Cassio says (not quoting) that it would only be right that he Cassio should go to heaven before Iago. I can understand Iago's patience being 'galled' by this time!
The word 'reputation' is used much in this play and is of great concern to Iago. He sees men of good reputation around him being weak and immoral (Cassio, Rodrigo, Othello) and treating him cavalierly.
He feels that his reputation has been sullied and he sets out on the path of revenge, using whatever opportunity arises. And to Iago his reputation is worth more than money.
Tracy wrote: "James wrote: "I've had a re-read, and most of the 'purses' are used by Iago in one conversation with Rodrigo. This is when Iago has promised to set something up with Desdemona and Rod, and that Rod..."You don't think that Iago wants some of that money for himself? I do think he does.
James wrote: "Tracy wrote: "James wrote: "I've had a re-read, and most of the 'purses' are used by Iago in one conversation with Rodrigo. This is when Iago has promised to set something up with Desdemona and Rod..."What money? Am I missing something?
Tracy wrote: " What money? Am I missing something?..."When Iago keeps telling Rodrigo to 'put money in thy purse'.
Funny, though, I took this to mean that Iago encourages Rodrigo to save up money in order to have enough when Desdemona comes to him. You notice that every time Iago says this phrase, it is followed by some coaxing about how Desdemona is likely to leave Othello.
"Put money in thy purse;
follow thou the wars; defeat thy favour with an usurped beard; I say,
put money in thy purse.
It cannot be that Desdemona should long continue her love to the Moor,—
put money in thy purse, —
nor he his to her: it was a violent commencement, and thou shalt see an answerable sequestration:
put but money in thy purse.
These Moors are changeable in their wills:
fill thy purse with money:
—the food that to him now is as luscious as locusts, shall be to him shortly as bitter as coloquintida. She must change for youth: when she is sated with his body, she will find the error of her choice: she must have change, she must: therefore
put money in thy purse."
Christine wrote: "Tracy wrote: " What money? Am I missing something?..."When Iago keeps telling Rodrigo to 'put money in thy purse'.
Funny, though, I took this to mean that Iago encourages Rodrigo to save up mo..."
No..no..no. I mean is there any real money going around in the play.
James wrote: "I'm coming around to Iago's point of view. His role in the army as an 'ancient', an ensign, is important to understand. As I have read, the name ancient is a corruption of the word ensign and link..."really good points made James. thoughtful analysis, thanks.
James wrote: "I'm coming around to Iago's point of view. His role in the army as an 'ancient', an ensign, is important to understand. As I have read, the name ancient is a corruption of the word ensign and link..."Even if Iago's grievance is legitimate, the way he deals with it and people is indefensible.
Tracy wrote: " No..no..no. I mean is there any real money going around in the play..."I think Rodrigo pays Iago for his so called matchmaking services.
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I can see Iago's side of the story. Sure. But there is a failure when he takes his good work in army and uses his disappointment with his life as a license to mess with other peoples lives. I do not think that is what being brave, or honorable earns a soldier. We don't get to be brave...and then come home and screw over civilian life.
There is no part of life in any society that feels that that is appropriate. Anywhere, in any economy.
Now, if we are saying James that Iago has PTSD...okay. I would buy that reason.
I don't know if any of you saw AMERICAN SNIPER, or are following the story of the fellow who killed Chris Kyle (the fellow portrayed in SNIPER) but he seems to have PTSD and a psychotic break...then killing fellow soldiers in homeland.
I'd be willing to say that perhaps Iago has some kind of damage from war. but I am not sure I'd be willing to give him much more quarter. I believe he is a very typical entitled person, who feels that by doing good it is for reward. Where in my world...being and doing good is its own so-called reward...the reward of peace of mind.
Something is wrong with Iago. Do I know exactly what it is? No....but it seems to be the kind of disenchantment that comes from entitlement and being a sore loser. Yes, he didn't get all his dreams and goals or recognition that he thought he should...well most people don't. This kind of bitterness really si what produces malignant gossip, and cruel mind games within communities.
I think Othello said something insightful...when he said
I am not valiant neither,
But ever puny whipster gets my sword:
But why should honour outlive honesty?
Let it go all.
I see Othello seems to tell us by his own inner reasoning...it mirrors or answers what we want to know about Iago.
It seems to me that Othello might be saying he has lost his own integrity. And once we lose our integrity we start to justify bad behavior.
No one took imago's integrity away....except iago.
But i am really struggling with trying to understand that quote of Othellos.
I think during the play...and the many instances of people being described a s honest....we might be seeing how honesty is a limited virtue. And actually...I have the sense that Shakespeare's thematic issue used in this play with honesty...is that honesty isn't good enough. Honesty isn't really a virtue is it?
We are really looking at character...and character building in this play and what holds a character from doing good or bad deeds?
Honesty is really only wonderful if it does from someone with a good character. And as for virtues....virtues as considered by Elizabethans....they looked to Greeks ?
https://www2.cortland.edu/dotAsset/29...
And by building character within ourselves...we learn when and how to be honest. How honest are we...if it hurts someones feelings? Of course we can't go around being unedited honest people....people confuse honesty with saying whatever is in their minds...that is not the only way to manifest honesty. We also need to be diplomatic. Because people with good character and compassion are also diplomatic with each other.
Honest Iago may have been...but thats because he didn't have any allegiance to others at the point we see him in this story. He had hit rock bottom with his disappointment...and like a sadist, he forced events to occur that made Othello drop to rock bottom in his character as well.
Shakespeare Fans
Books mentioned in this topic
Art Made Tongue-Tied By Authority: Elizabethan and Jacobean Dramatic Censorship (other topics)The Life of Elizabeth I (other topics)
Paradise Lost (other topics)
I would suggest that Iago has been a too good ancient to Othello and Othello does not want to let him go - too valuable for him where he is. Iago has a special position being Othello's right hand man.