Shakespeare Fans discussion
Group Readings
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The First Read of 2015: Othello!
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January 23-30, Act 2
January 31-Feb.6, Act 3
Feb. 7-14, Act 4
Feb. 14-22, Act 5
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but....even I am aware of the plot...I kind of like to try to get myself to surrender and let go...and let the plays speak to me....trying to see something new.
Some plays I have read several times...and know what is going to happen...and am still always amazed how surprised I am by looking again...I suppose in some ways it's impossible to have spoilers with Shakespeare because they are not really about "plots"....but about humans and language? LOL
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I am not what I am.
Holy cow...is that mystifying or what? It reminds me of the Judge in Blood Meridian...when the kid says to him "you ain't nothing" and the Judge replies "you speak truer than you know".
I do not know what it means...but my gut tells me that to be not what we are.....to be nothing...is to not have ties. To not be bound by any group or community...or idea or ideal. I feel this is really to be nihilist...but I don't want to pound in a point I was following earlier. It might be worth coming back to later....
I also think of course of the line "nothing comes from nothing"...is this an inversion of that idea?
I don't know...it's so deep and scary...and mysterious...and...evil feeling with iago saying that!
Candy wrote: "Janmes, great post. And I'm glad you mentioned that line. The one your grandfather underlined. It stood out to me as well.I am not what I am.
Holy cow...is that mystifying or what? It reminds me..."
The direct opposite of Popeye's line: "I am what I am."
Joseph wrote: "Some Shakespeare productions like to take the text and set the play in other situations. I could almost see this play being set in the US Civil War or the American South in the 1950s. Not to spoil ..."Hi Joseph. I've just seen today in my local library a dvd of an Othello production starring Willard White as Othello and Ian Maclellan as Iago - Imogen Stubbs as Desdemona and it is an American civil war setting.
Candy wrote: "Janmes, great post. And I'm glad you mentioned that line. The one your grandfather underlined. It stood out to me as well.I am not what I am.
Holy cow...is that mystifying or what? It reminds me..."
I wonder Candy if the line could relate to his being an 'ancient' or Ensign which is the lowest rank of officer. Iago I assume is no longer a teenager and has been passed over for promotion many times. He does not see himself as what he is, an ensign, but something much better.
Just to point out, it was my great grandfather who owned the book and not my grandfather. He is someone I never knew and who died in the WWI battle of the Somme.
Joseph wrote: "Candy wrote: "Janmes, great post. And I'm glad you mentioned that line. The one your grandfather underlined. It stood out to me as well.I am not what I am.
Holy cow...is that mystifying or what?..."
Oh yeah, in a comedy version of Othello where Iago is Popeye and says his line, I am not, I am, I am what I am not, no no I am not what I am. I am Popeye Iago man.
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Now here we get to an interesting concept. In some employments...people need to push and prove they need and want a promotion or to move up through ranks.
In some situations if one just accepted their role they might be perceived as not ambitious. Or weak. However...isn't there a fair bit of suffering when someone feels they have paid their dues and should be promoted. Is there a fine line between self-worth and egotism or entitlement?
I think the difference is that self-worth and feeling one deserves a promotion...one asks for such...and if one is unhappy with their boss not giving them a promotion...people move on, or make peace with their position within an organization or community.. That would be self-worth.
Entitlement...is using one's sense of self-worth in a manipulative way to get what one wants. entitlement would be acting out that one takes what one wants by force, or damaging manipulation. Damaging to a community, but for selfish gain.
James wrote: "Act 1, wow! I blew through it - great pace as others have mentioned. I missed so many good lines and I thank you who have picked out some gems like ' Mere prattle with out practice' that I missed m..."I mentioned earlier how the light/dark, reason/chaos themes are pervasive in this play. Let me add that they extend to the cities. Venice is supposed to be the "light" and "reasoned" city, and Cyprus the "dark" and "chaotic" city. The themes are everywhere!!
James wrote: "Joseph wrote: "Some Shakespeare productions like to take the text and set the play in other situations. I could almost see this play being set in the US Civil War or the American South in the 1950s..."Do you happen to have handy the title of this movie? I'd love to see if I can get it on Netflix... (I couldn't seem to find it under "Othello" - though maybe Netflix just doesn't carry it).
Lea wrote: "Do you happen to have handy the title of this movie?..."I have a dvd of this production of Othello, directed by Trevor Nunn. This is the Amazon UK link: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Othello-DVD-I... The three of them, Willard White, Ian McClellan and Imogen Stubbs, make the best Othello, the best Iago and the best Desdemona for me. -- As for the Civil War, it's just the costumes?? I didn't even notice a Civil War connection, though I admired the uniforms.
Bryn wrote: "Lea wrote: "Do you happen to have handy the title of this movie?..."I have a dvd of this production of Othello, directed by Trevor Nunn. This is the Amazon UK link: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Othell..."
Netflix here where I am definitely doesn't have it. Bummer...
Have also spotted in my local; library an Othello starring Anthony Hopkins in blackface as the manand Bob Hoskins, I think as Iago. I'm avoiding watching any Othello films/productions, and there are a number out there. until the end of our discussions.
By the way, Amazon.ca has copies of the Nun directed Othello on sale for $9.
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I am also avoiding watching any versions till we are done.
It might be an idea at that time to start a new topic thread of movie versions?
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I have here a link....and it seems like this might be an urban myth....
https://www.google.com/search?q=antho...
Candy wrote: "You know...the other day someone said there was a BBC version with Hopkins in black face. I was quite in shock to hear anyone especially at that time period (early 80s) would have put such make up ..."I watched it and I would say that they darkened his face but not obviously so. I took it as an attempt to make him more Moorish and not to make an obvious point.
I really liked this version ....... Hoskins as Iago is fantastic. I wasn't that thrilled with Hopkins but the rest of the cast was very good.
Candy wrote: "Yes, James, that is the BBC production of Othello.I am also avoiding watching any versions till we are done.
It might be an idea at that time to start a new topic thread of movie versions?"
Not a bad idea Candy. We just have to figure out a schedule when everyone can watch the movies by?
Anyone ready to discuss Iago's final speech --the"put money in thy purse"? It seems the essential insightful line to his character.
If you can't get to a book version of Shakespeare, MIT put the text of all of his plays online. Go to http://shakespeare.mit.edu. It's also a great way to copy and paste text here.
Joseph wrote: "If you can't get to a book version of Shakespeare, MIT put the text of all of his plays online. Go to http://shakespeare.mit.edu. It's also a great way to copy and paste text here."Nice one Joseph. Thanks for that.
Brabantio's prejudiced expressions stand out hugely once we see Othello with the Duke and senators. Her father loved me, oft invited me... But resorts quickly to abuse. I hope the Duke's love for Othello wouldn't prove as hollow if it came to a question of his daughter. Father doesn't know Desdemona well: A maiden never bold, /Of spirit so still and quiet... -- who as near as, proposes to Othello.
I guess the story can't quite have Othello address her. She initiates their marriage.
I believe today starts the discussion of the second act.On that note, I finished reading it last night, and let me say that if Iago is described as "honest" one more time, I think I am going to go crazy!!!!!!
Lea wrote: "On that note, I finished reading it last night, and let me say that if Iago is described as "honest" one more time, I think I am going to go crazy!!!!!! ..."
I know what you mean!! What irony, huh?
Lea wrote: "I believe today starts the discussion of the second act.On that note, I finished reading it last night, and let me say that if Iago is described as "honest" one more time, I think I am going to ..."
Usually by Othello.
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I am wondering if this is partly why he wants to assassinate her character. She knows what kind of a person he is...but can't say to Othello?
I think the most ironic phrase in the Shakespeare cannon is: Honest Iago.He lives to bring about misery and destruction. And as always, Shakepeare perfectly portrays this.
Candy wrote: "I am only in Act 2, starting Scene 3...and it seems to me that Desdemona sees right through Iago ..."
When he is alone with his wife and Desdemona, Iago speaks boorishly about the role and motivations of wives. It is odd that she doesn't tell Othello about this conversation.
When he is alone with his wife and Desdemona, Iago speaks boorishly about the role and motivations of wives. It is odd that she doesn't tell Othello about this conversation.
Yes, Iago has been passed over, and there is nothing more grievous to incite the will. I don't see it as a terrorist mindset though, if we're talking about our current crop of Islamic terrorists where the death wish looms pretty large. This Shakespeare sure can plot.
Candy wrote: "I am only in Act 2, starting Scene 3...and it seems to me that Desdemona sees right through Iago. I get the impression....sorry didn't copy the parts but will look back tomorrow...that she doesn't ..."I didn't take things that way. I assumed Desdemona is just such a self-assured, unafraid person that she talks to whom she wants, loves whom she wants, and says things as they are. So she comes across sort of forthrightly with Iago, not because she doesn't think much of him, but just because she's so centered. Does that make sense? But I'll have to go back and reread it now. Maybe another reading and I'll see it your way Candy!
Alex wrote: "Yes, Iago has been passed over, and there is nothing more grievous to incite the will. I don't see it as a terrorist mindset though, if we're talking about our current crop of Islamic terrorists wh..."Yes I think this be a crux of the matter. Iago is envious of everyone who ranks above him in society's eyes. His jealousy and resentment is so strong that he will go to outrageous lengths to bring the 'big' people down, just to see them fall. He uses and abuses Desdemona, Rodrigo and Cassio on his way to undermining Othello who everyone seems to love and who also is simply, his rank aside, a man in love.
Iago is (to me) an Everyman of his time who has a function in society but whose person commands little respect, like most people (of the time and/or of our times).
Sheakespeare brings out just how casually belittled Iago (the average person) is, part way through Scene III ActII when Cassio, discussing with Iago about wishing to be saved (get to heaven) asserts Iago's right to hope to be saved with a but:
"Ay but by your leave, not before me; the lieutenant is to be saved before the ancient." That says it all to me - Iago's motive.
But further to the enactment of Othello's downfall by Iago, I am struck by a line in the closing speech of Act I by Iago;
"The Moor is of a free and open nature
that thinks men honest that but seem to be so"
In fact everyone so far seems to fall under the spell of apparently 'honest' Iago because like most of us we think in general, 'those honest who seem to be so'. It's how the world goes around, except for the fact that I think Shakespeare is quietly pointing out; that all Iagos the in the world, and they are legion, have for millennia had to lie to appear to be honest/to keep their place. My 'for example' in short form is " yes sir yes sir three bags full".
So in a way what Iago is doing is revolutionary and upsetting the social order by lying when everyone has agreed, in general, to be honest. It is far more than simply being a nasty ne'r do well getting his own back. There is something more subversive going on me thinks. What was that film by Ricky Gervais, The Invention of Lying?
I've been thinking out loud (so to speak). Any takers?
Excellent points, James. Honesty versus the appearance of honesty does seem to be at the heart of the play. And when honesty is not rewarded does that justify dishonesty? How does one overturn the system?
James wrote: "Alex wrote: "Yes, Iago has been passed over, and there is nothing more grievous to incite the will. I don't see it as a terrorist mindset though, if we're talking about our current crop of Islamic ..."I like your observations about Iago's motives...that lieutenant before ancient thing is a great observation I've never noticed. It has to do with that Elizabethan notion of the Chain of Being, I suppose, that some humans are higher in god's eyes--more spirit than matter, and I always wondered how the Elizabethans felt that fair--you were born to be good or bad, so what's the point of the moral struggle? Maybe that's what Iago thinks.
On the honesty theme:
Being A schoolteacher, I see myself and my colleagues constantly fighting through this feigned honesty dilemma daily with a certain type of student. I'm not going to say all schoolteachers are honest, but we do tend to take ourselves out of the more morally challenging businesses of ,say, commerce, politics, or science--the better teachers I see in a constant struggle to interpret between the honest and the feigned honest , and like Othello, we most often err on believing in the goodness of others, because that's our job. Perhaps the military man has a similar conflict--is your man fighting for right or for promotion?
I know we're supposed to be up to Act II, but I think we overlooked a central speech in Act I---the speech where Iago chastises Rodrigo (who really seems like an unlikable character to me on about ten levels) for wanting to drown himself over Desdemona, and instead advises "put money in thy purse". I take this line to mean, in addition to the obvious tendency towards favoring physical values , that Iago has rather Machiavellian ways: He's willing to lay low, prostrate himself, not out of humility, but for some future gain--that puts money in his "purse". It doesn't seem like promotion is really his ultimate goal--it too is just a means to an end. He really does want to just subvert everything--almost out of perversity, it seems. He does seem completely outside the Elizabethan Christian value system--he tells Rodrigo it is better to be hanged for a crime that allows him his pleasure than to drown himself from misery of not getting what he wants. He's pretty much got that "Will To Power" ideology that promotes the superiority of certain individuals who are supernal to a system designed for weaker men. He really does seem to just love the game of manipulation, "leading tenderly by the nose"...and you can see the rush he gets at taking down all his enemies in the same plot.
I think the point in that Christian-based Chain of Being concept is that pure spirituality is the ultimate goal of man, and a benevolent creator rewards spirit and morality. Humility is part of the package--gifts from God must always be perceived as such, not a reflection of the ego of the recipient.
I find it interesting how often Iago invokes birthing imagery as well, birthing a new, more evil driven world, it seems--his attempted perversion of Rodrigo , to spread his ideology reminds me quite a bit of Milton's Satan in PARADISE LOST, who is all about first corrupting the rebellious angels, then Adam and Eve, and from there...
Satan famously says, in PARADISE LOST: Better to rule in hell than serve in heaven. Et tu, Iago??
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I'm sorry though....I'm not buying the honest Iago. Honest yes, to maybe acting out his sense of desire for a promotion. I think Tracy asks the valuable question here...James...is Iago fighting for rights or for promotion?
I think he fights for promotion because he believes if we work hard, follow the rules then we climb a social and rank ladder.
This is not true...life seems to be a case of paying one's dues....but we don't get to choose when those dues are paid.
James, I think most people do live lives where they fit in and jump through hoops. Sure.
BUT....while jumping through hoops they are feeling grateful for the wealth they have in life most important things. Family and friends. Money can not buy you that an neither can power...Most well'adjusted, regular working people know this...and this is the greatest knowledge.
The mindset of those few people who wake up and are nihilistic, and shit disturbers to try to serve themselves and stir up community....just for the sake of stirring it up...are a far ways away from civil rights protestors. Iago is not a civil rights protester...even though he is held back by the same kinds of taboos and customs as all "working regular joes".
I'm not suggesting Iago is going to blow up the opera house sort of terrorist. I am also not prepared to label terrorists as religious fanatics...terrorists are motivated by nihilism. Period. It is a modern urban myth that religion has anything to do with terrorism. Religion become involved when these nihilistic people find a community to get attention and that justifies their malignant bitterness.
It is Iagos sense of bitterness, alienation...;ack of loving community and reward that community gives (with or without rank or promotion) that I am taking issue with...he is seeming to be anything but honest or admirable.
As for regular joes being liars...hey wait a minute. Don;t we see a difference between diplomacy and lying?
Yes diplomacy and tact....is using patience and calm manners to avoid saying something that is uncomfortable to others, or rude, or threatening to say...an employers (or higher ranked military_.
The skills involved in being diplomatic are hardly the skills of a liar...they are the skills of acceptance, and compassion and patience. They are the skills that there is no point having a revolution against one's boss....when it's really a totalitarian economy that holds most people in to their rank, socially, economically. Rebelling against our neighbors, people in a restaurant, employers isn't the way to fight for human rights...the fight for human rights is much more logically and practically exerted in a different, more plebe arena. No?
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You guys rock!
I am using the archive of the EdX Shakespeare course that Everyman posted for a reference.
The professor explained that Iago's jealousy and hatred of Othello comes not only from being passed over for promotion, but also because there are rumors that Othello has cheated with his wife, Emilia. He discusses it twice in the text, which I have italicized. I cannot believe I missed that on my first reading! Now, I see Iago in a different light, and though his actions are evil, I understand him a little better.
Act 1, Scene 4.
IAGO: Thus do I ever make my fool my purse.
For I mine own gained knowledge should profane If I would time expend with such a snipe
But for my sport and profit. I hate the Moor,
And it is thought abroad that ’twixt my sheets ’Has done my office. I know not if ’t be true,
But I, for mere suspicion in that kind,
Will do as if for surety. He holds me well.
The better shall my purpose work on him.
Act 2, Scene 1.
IAGO: That Cassio loves her, I do well believe ’t.
That she loves him, ’tis apt and of great credit. The Moor, howbeit that I endure him not,
Is of a constant, loving, noble nature,
And I dare think he’ll prove to Desdemona
A most dear husband. Now, I do love her too, Not out of absolute lust (though peradventure I stand accountant for as great a sin)
But partly led to diet my revenge
For that I do suspect the lusty Moor
Hath leaped into my seat—the thought whereof Doth, like a poisonous mineral, gnaw my inwards, And nothing can or shall content my soul
Till I am evened with him, wife for wife,
Or, failing so, yet that I put the Moor
At least into a jealousy so strong
That judgment cannot cure.
The professor explained that Iago's jealousy and hatred of Othello comes not only from being passed over for promotion, but also because there are rumors that Othello has cheated with his wife, Emilia. He discusses it twice in the text, which I have italicized. I cannot believe I missed that on my first reading! Now, I see Iago in a different light, and though his actions are evil, I understand him a little better.
Act 1, Scene 4.
IAGO: Thus do I ever make my fool my purse.
For I mine own gained knowledge should profane If I would time expend with such a snipe
But for my sport and profit. I hate the Moor,
And it is thought abroad that ’twixt my sheets ’Has done my office. I know not if ’t be true,
But I, for mere suspicion in that kind,
Will do as if for surety. He holds me well.
The better shall my purpose work on him.
Act 2, Scene 1.
IAGO: That Cassio loves her, I do well believe ’t.
That she loves him, ’tis apt and of great credit. The Moor, howbeit that I endure him not,
Is of a constant, loving, noble nature,
And I dare think he’ll prove to Desdemona
A most dear husband. Now, I do love her too, Not out of absolute lust (though peradventure I stand accountant for as great a sin)
But partly led to diet my revenge
For that I do suspect the lusty Moor
Hath leaped into my seat—the thought whereof Doth, like a poisonous mineral, gnaw my inwards, And nothing can or shall content my soul
Till I am evened with him, wife for wife,
Or, failing so, yet that I put the Moor
At least into a jealousy so strong
That judgment cannot cure.
An ironic statement by Iago, Act 3, Scene 3. (don't worry, it's not a spoiler.Who steals my purse steals trash; 'tis something, nothing;
'Twas mine, 'tis his, and has been slave to thousands:
But he that filches from me my good name
Robs me of that which not enriches him
And makes me poor indeed.
This quote has been taken out of context and elevated to a general principle, namely, protect your name and reputation. (I've also seen it used by identity theft companies.) The ironic part here is that Iago is the least trustworthy of all the characters in the play. He is trying to destroy everyone else's name for his own personal gain. The next time you see the above quote, just remember the source.
Joseph wrote: "An ironic statement by Iago, Act 3, Scene 3. (don't worry, it's not a spoiler.Who steals my purse steals trash; 'tis something, nothing;
'Twas mine, 'tis his, and has been slave to thousands:
But..."
If you take the first line at face value, and go back to the line I quoted from the end of Act I "Put money in thy purse"--you can draw the conclusion that the "money" Iago collects (whatever you want to call it in the abstract, including his colleagues' reputations)--is worthless, i.e.. trash. Wow, never noticed those two lines contradicted each other before!
Tracy wrote: "Joseph wrote: "An ironic statement by Iago, Act 3, Scene 3. (don't worry, it's not a spoiler.Who steals my purse steals trash; 'tis something, nothing;
'Twas mine, 'tis his, and has been slave to..."
Good point, except that it's hard for me to take anything Iago says at face value. Everything he says or does has some kind of ulterior motive.
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I am so grateful for these group reads!
I have a question for everyone: does anyone read these play out loud? A friend of mine just told me that reading it out loud can change one's interpretation of a passage entirely. Really?I've been reading them quietly like a normal person. But now I'm curious - perhaps I'll try some passages out loud...?
Lea wrote: "I have a question for everyone: does anyone read these play out loud?"Yes!!! and once discovered, it's impossible to sit quietly and read a play. I have to walk about and act it out.
I read Shakespeare aloud (when I am alone), and I think I get more out of it than I would reading silently.
Voice encourages expression, I think more about 'how they spoke that line'. Also, the speed the words take to say is different -- they can slip by too fast when you read silently. It helps me pay attention.
Tina wrote: "I am using the archive of the EdX Shakespeare course that Everyman posted for a reference. The professor explained that Iago's jealousy and hatred of Othello comes not only from being passed over..."
Thanks for this, Tina. This is part of why I think Iago is purely evil and not just misunderstood. He expects everyone around him to act with the same lack of a moral compass that he does, and simply cannot believe anything different. He is like Satan in Paradise Lost, completely immersed in his own self-delusion.
As for reading Shakespeare aloud, always! And I'll often get a play and read along with the performance. The experience is much more rich.
I think Iago has been jealous for a long time. Simply getting passed over for a promotion wouldn't be enough to trigger what happened here. I see this as the event that pushed him over the edge. Given some of the previous comments, there may be some racial prejudices at work here. Iago was told by a black man that he wouldn't get the promotion. He might have a personal incentive to disqualify a black man. I could definitely see this play set in the pre-Civli Rights South. Iago would be wearing a white hood and burning a cross on Othello's lawn.
Lea wrote: "I have a question for everyone: does anyone read these play out loud? A friend of mine just told me that reading it out loud can change one's interpretation of a passage entirely. Really?I've ..."
If you count reading it out loud in my class: I did Othello once with one of my honors classes..of course kids reading it in monotone doesn't always cut it. I have the annoying (to my students)) habit of repeating what they read in my voice, with what I think is the proper speed, intonation, emphasis. I am often surprised that when I do it, the lights go on--(pun subconsciously intended with Othello..oh, boy).
Joseph wrote: "Given some of the previous comments, there may be some racial prejudices at work here. Iago was told by a black man that he wouldn't get the promotion. He might have a personal incentive to disqualify a black man. I could definitely see this play set in the pre-Civli Rights South. Iago would be wearing a white hood and burning a cross on Othello's lawn. ..."I was one of the participants in the Shakespeare EdX course and most of us couldn't come up with any textual proof that there was any racial prejudice at work. Iago used Othello's race as a type of tool to inflame situations but looked at in context, he could have used other things as well. His purpose never seemed to bring up race because of race, but instead for some other purpose. Othello (view spoiler). It would be interesting if someone could find some textual evidence that we missed. It will be good to keep an eye out for it as we keep reading.
Shakespeare Fans
Books mentioned in this topic
Art Made Tongue-Tied By Authority: Elizabethan and Jacobean Dramatic Censorship (other topics)The Life of Elizabeth I (other topics)
Paradise Lost (other topics)
My line to ponder and the one that is marked in the copy of the play I am reading that was owned by my great grandfather, is by Iago. His closing statement after delivering his 'manifesto' is
I am not what I am.
Ponder ponder ponder.
But back to Venice and the historical context which I think is very important to take into account in this particular play that is partly about a dark skinned man and a white skinned woman in love. Venice was for a long time in the Middle Ages a very rich and cosmopolitain centre. Venice was the main exchange point for trade from western Europe to the Byzantium world of Turkey and the East and the Muslim world in general. The Renaisance happened here with a vengeance and there was money and power being used and wielded like nowhere else.
This to makes Venice a most appropriate setting for a love affair/elopement of a Moor/Muslim and a European/Christian. We see that Brabantio the father quickly accepts the situation of his daughter being marriedn though not the fact that she didn't consult him. This suggests that Venice society in general would have found the union acceptable.
Regarding Iago's desire for promotion and riches - he lives in a city where it is obvious that it is possible to be fabulously rich. But in a rich place many people have to be poor and work hard to keep the rich rich.
And if Othello is being seen as a Christ figure then Iago must be a Judas; albeit a rather hapless one, as he only manages to out Othello to the girl's dad and not to the authorities for crucifixion.
Othello, to the power mongers of Venice, is like Nostromo from the Joseph Conrad novel of the same name. Does anyone else see that?