Georgette Heyer Fans discussion
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August 2020 Discussion About Reading GH's Regencies in Order!
I think it's somewhat clearer, in Friday's Child, that Hero and Sherry have not.
Margaret wrote: "I think it's somewhat clearer, in Friday's Child, that Hero and Sherry have not."yes, that's clear by the ending.
Speaking of Friday's Child, GH does friendship (especially male friendship) very well in this book. Sherry's friends are far more appealing than Sherry - & the whole group is one you would like to hang out with!
I agree! And also so many different types of male friendship. Friday's Child had a varied, fun group. And she really captured the different levels of friendship between brothers and cousins. The hero-worship, rivalry, joking, teasing, scorn, and fierce support.
well said, @Carol She's So Novel, not sure about Sherry as an individual but I would indeed like to hang out with his group of friends.
Critterbee❇ wrote: "I agree! And also so many different types of male friendship. Friday's Child had a varied, fun group. And she really captured the different levels of friendship between brothers and cousins. The he..."Yes!
I have to say that I find the 'young men' in her books, frequently irritating. They are always indulging in things that are meant to be amusing but which never seem so to me. Bear baiting, cock-fighting, attending bare-knuckle fighting matches et al. I know this was the reality for the era but it still grates. I have no doubt that she captures many elements of male friendship very closely, but many of those young men are too obviously plot devices and sometimes they take over. Nell's brother (whose gambling leads to Nell lying to Giles about lending him money,) is presented as someone who really cannot control himself whether it be gambling or any other activity enjoyed by young bucks. There is no suggestion that he should be seeking a wealthy heiress to marry - as of course, that would mean an end to the story!
I think Heyer's ability to depict young men in all their variety is amazing and the humour that derives from these relationships is acutely observed.
The barely touched on sexual shenanigans of the era make a fleeting appearance in Arabella but it is treated in a somewhat farcical manner. I watched 'Harlots' last week (I know it's Georgian not Regency), and was reminded of how horrific it was for young women to be sex workers during this period.
In most of her books, we are given to assume that women who used sex to support themselves were more like Lady Massey or Lady Orsett than the poor bawds of Soho. Heyer's sympathies are certainly not with these women as she conveys her contempt for them in the way she uses them in the stories.
Venetia has for me the most adult approach to marital relations and I never, ever believe that she is saying that Jasper can be unfaithful or have orgies. Far from it, she intends to have fun with him and he certainly will never look elsewhere IMHO.
I do like the little touches in her later books which accept the importance of a good physical relationship to marital happiness. Too frequently she seems to suggest that friendship is enough and whilst it is certainly very important, I think the couples in her books will expect to have a happy fulfilling time after marriage!
Susan in Perthshire wrote: "I have to say that I find the 'young men' in her books, frequently irritating. They are always indulging in things that are meant to be amusing but which never seem so to me. Bear baiting, cock-fig..."I now skim those parts in Regency Buck.
but many of those young men are too obviously plot devices and sometimes they take over. Nell's brother (whose gambling leads to Nell lying to Giles about lending him money,) is presented as someone who really cannot control himself whether it be gambling or any other activity enjoyed by young bucks. There is no suggestion that he should be seeking a wealthy heiress to marry - as of course, that would mean an end to the story!
& that brings me to my (stated many times) observation that there are a lot of unsatisfactory brothers/male relatives in GH's books. Not just the Regencies, but the Georgians & the detective stories as well.
There are quite a few irritating characters in GH's books. I puzzled over it at one time, because I think they can cross over the line from humorous to obnoxious--then I wondered if she was borrowing from Jane Austen (in the Regencies at least), who created a number of ridiculous characters herself--Emma's father, Miss Bates, Aunt Norris, Mrs Bennett, Robert Ferrars, to name just a few. Perhaps this parallel is obvious to others, but I only made this connection recently. The unsatisfactory brothers could have sprung from her own life experience. But I think the young men in Friday's Child are delightful (Sherry benefits from their tutelage). Simon the Coldheart is another GH book I can think of that has a "band of brothers" theme.
All of those irritating/unsatisfactory characters are drawn from real life, and just as in real life, if we laugh at them we won't be as apt to be had up for manslaughter. Or character slaughter. Or both.
Ha ha, that’s a good point, Karlyne!
One thing that for me became very noticeable reading her books in order is that from Frederica onwards (other than maybe Charity Girl - I didn't reread that one as I just don't like it) feature illlness. In LoQ it probably does mirror what was going on in her own life.
so true and obvious; can't believe I never noticed that before.
Jackie wrote: "so true and obvious; can't believe I never noticed that before."I didn't notice until reading in order. & it is not like none of her books featured illness before. It is an important plot point in Sylvester that Edmund becomes unwell.
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Jackie wrote: "so true and obvious; can't believe I never noticed that before."I didn't notice until reading in order. & it is not like none of her books featured illness before. It is an importa..."
Very true - that was very affecting, he was such a clever, likable, precocious little guy!
I think I have noticed that while she does have some recurring characters, Heyer also does have a lot of unique characters. When trying to categorize her heroes, there ended up being so many categories, more than I expected. It is not really accurate to say that she only had one or two hero types. And I wouldn't even be able to categorize the heroines - far too many individual personalities!Her characters are almost all so well formed, like younger siblings, benevolent innkeepers, nefarious villains high-nosed family members, even those who do not appear often like the second footman and encroaching neighbors.
The secondary characters always remind me of why I love Frank Capra movies; Heyer and Capra had a genius for those "unimportant people" who add so much to life!
Happy Birthday, Georgette! Thanks for giving us so many wonderful books to discuss! The characters come to life and end up feeling like personal family, friends or foes.
QNPoohBear wrote: "Happy Birthday, Georgette! Thanks for giving us so many wonderful books to discuss! The characters come to life and end up feeling like personal family, friends or foes."Beautifully said, QNPB!
Happy Birthday Georgette! Just watched a couple of videos on Jennifer Kloester's blog of the unveiling of the Blue Plaque in celebration. Imagine she shares a date, the 16th, with Jane Austen. Must be something magical about it :)
QNPoohBear wrote: "Happy Birthday, Georgette! Thanks for giving us so many wonderful books to discuss! The characters come to life and end up feeling like personal family, friends or foes."YAS!
Happy Birthday, Georgette!
QNPoohBear wrote: "Happy Birthday, Georgette! Thanks for giving us so many wonderful books to discuss! The characters come to life and end up feeling like personal family, friends or foes."is it today???! Happy Birthday, Georgette!
Karlyne wrote: "The secondary characters always remind me of why I love Frank Capra movies; Heyer and Capra had a genius for those "unimportant people" who add so much to life!"Yes, I agree - they often steal the scenes for me! Thanks, Georgette, and happy birthday!
Mod
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Yes, AIA had the advantage of being set in Brussels rather than London, but once you get too many real people mingling with fictional people in the same real place at the same real time you begin to wonder why the fictional people in Book C never seem to come across the fictional people from Books A & B, who were all apparently enjoying the same huge social success at Almack's and White's and so on!
Ha!As a Young Thing when I started reading GH, I used to visualise balls, hunting parties, etc, etc with them all hanging out together!
Jenny wrote: "Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "AIA, like Regency Buck, had a lot of real life people. I think GH very sensibly cut down on that in her later Regencies to free up her characterisations. ."
Yes, AI..."
That is such a good point Jenny. Surely if several people were having 'great successes' in the season, they must have run into each other!
That is something that happens in a lot of romances written today - long series where previous heroes and heroines pop in, or interact in small scenes with the current book's heroes. It is def fan service, and helps cement book sales because of the familiarity of meeting characters you already know.
Critterbee❇ wrote: "That is something that happens in a lot of romances written today - long series where previous heroes and heroines pop in, or interact in small scenes with the current book's heroes. It is def fan ..."Exactly, it’s like checking in with old friends! I always kind of enjoy that - I know the author is pandering to our desire to get a glimpse of the “after” part of a previous couple’s Happily Ever After, but I admit, I enjoy it!
I like it too! It is very comforting.
Mod
Critterbee❇ wrote: "I like it too! It is very comforting."I've been thinking about this (recurring characters) & I'm actually glad GH didn't do this too much.
The main flaw in AIA for me is what GH did to Dominic (making him faintly ridiculous) This reread I felt more positive about Judith's character.
& as much as I now love AIA - Charles was one of my favourite secondary males in Regency Buck. I love the realism but Charles didn't get the happy ending he deserved.
I liked seeing Leonie and Justin again in DC, although Rupert, well, is Rupert. But those are not Regencies, sorry!
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Critterbee❇ wrote: "I like it too! It is very comforting."I've been thinking about this (recurring characters) & I'm actually glad GH didn't do this too much.
The main flaw in AIA for me is what..."
I absolutely agree. I adore Dominic and Mary. Devil's Cub was my very first Heyer when I was 11 and at first the idea of them returning as the current Duke and Duchess of Avon seemed lovely; but I was so annoyed that having brought him back she treated him so dreadfully. I was also truly annoyed that Heyer got her own characters' timelines so muddled that she made Babs their grand-daughter! (A physical impossibility in the time slot). I still love AIA but tend to rush through Dominic and Mary's scenes. I still can't bring myself to skip them!!
Critterbee❇ wrote: "I liked seeing Leonie and Justin again in DC, although Rupert, well, is Rupert. But those are not Regencies, sorry!"I read them in the wrong order - Devil's Cub was my very first Heyer: - so then I read TOS and loved seeing the backstory to Justin and Leonie. Have read both innumerable times since (usually in the right order!) and still love them. I know - not Regencies but still - Avon!!
I've enjoyed reading all the comments on this discussion but I'll be glad to get back to reading the novels. I really missed it this month.
Teresa wrote: "I've enjoyed reading all the comments on this discussion but I'll be glad to get back to reading the novels. I really missed it this month."Me, too, Teresa! This has been fun, but I'm better at focusing on one title at a time!
Teresa wrote: "I've enjoyed reading all the comments on this discussion but I'll be glad to get back to reading the novels. I really missed it this month."Me too! I tried Alice Chetwynd Ley A Conformable Wife: A Regency Romance with a spirited heroine and it was basically a Heyer/Austen copycat. Some of her others are more original though. I've also been devouring Sarah M. Eden's Jonquils series but those are in a different sort of Regency genre than Heyer's. Not romantic comedy but heartwarming Regency.
Critterbee❇ wrote: "That is something that happens in a lot of romances written today - long series where previous heroes and heroines pop in, or interact in small scenes with the current book's heroes. It is def fan service, and helps cement book sales because of the familiarity of meeting characters you already know. ."I'm a little ambivalent (and maybe inconsistent with myself) with this: I imagine "sequels" and "what ifs" for my favorite characters all the time, and yet I find it a bit easy when an author relies too much on the familiar things, like they're "clinging" to their previous book and can't "let go" of their previous characters. That's why I'm starting to get tired that everything is a series nowadays. But like I said this isn't very clear in my mind, just mixed feelings on this.
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Ha!
As a Young Thing when I started reading GH, I used to visualise balls, hunting parties, etc, etc with them all hanging out together!"
Such a nice mental image! :-)
Moloch wrote: "I'm a little ambivalent (and maybe inconsistent with myself) with this: I imagine "sequels" and "what ifs" for my favorite characters all the time, and yet I find it a bit easy when an author relies too much on the familiar things, like they're "clinging" to their previous book and can't "let go" of their previous characters. That's why I'm starting to get tired that everything is a series nowadays. But like I said this isn't very clear in my mind, just mixed feelings on this."I agree - it can go either way. Heyer did not do it very much, and when she did, generally it seemed to good effect - Judith especially showing a lot of character growth and becoming much more sympathetic. The strength that she had even while a young adult sometimes caused her to be snappish and impatient. When you meet her again in AIA, she has learned patience, but still has an iron core and that same ferocity (which she is master of and knows how to use to good effect).
As good escapist regency romance, it may have diminished heroes and heroines to have them appear as anything less than main characters. Judith, imo, is still a main character in AIA, even though she is not 'the heroine.' I have only read AIA twice, but the more I think about it, the more I realize how good it is, even though it is not like many other of her books.
QNPoohBear wrote: "Teresa wrote: "I've enjoyed reading all the comments on this discussion but I'll be glad to get back to reading the novels. I really missed it this month."Me too! I tried [author:Alice Chetwynd L..."
I too have enjoyed Alice Chetwynd Lee's books. Light easy reading. I've recently read Gentleman Jim by Mimi Matthews due to be published in November. I think you'd enjoy it.
HiCritterbee & I have just had a chat & since so many of you have missed the individual book reads so much, we thought we would move them forward a couple of weeks.
Originally there was going to be no group read in September.
Now we will have The Black Moth 15th of September-14th of October
These Old Shades 15th of October - 14th of November
Devils Cub 15th of November- 14th of December.
In 2021 we will go back to starting our reads on the first of the month.
The Black Moth is the easiest of GH's books to obtain as it is in the public domain. It is on Gutenberg
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/38703...
& here
https://digital.library.upenn.edu/wom...
If you can't start till the first of October that is still ok - this group leaves the discussions open & you can chime in whenever you wish!
I look forward to all of them, but especially These Old Shades.
I am looking forward to finishing the year with three of my favorites!
Well, you know this will make a lot of us smile!
Whoohoo!! Can't wait to get back to them. Need a lift. My little dog has just been given a life sentence and I'm devastated. I need something to keep me going.
The first GH I ever read + my two favourites! *grins from ear to ear!*I'll send a block message out later to make sure the change reaches everyone.
Georgette Heyer Fans
Books mentioned in this topic
A Conformable Wife (other topics)1811 Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue (other topics)
Regency Buck (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Alice Chetwynd Ley (other topics)Sarah M. Eden (other topics)
Barbara Cartland (other topics)
There’s always huge debate each time we discuss The Convenient Marriage as to whether Horry and Rule had even consummated the marriage!"
That's what I remember, too!