Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Swift - Gulliver's Travels
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Week 2: Part 1, Chapters 5 - 8
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Interesting that Gulliver proclaims "that I would never be an instrument of bringing a free and brave people into slavery," and yet he is clearly an instrument of war. He is being used to induce fear, and when he surrendered his weapons, he effectively armed the community with bombs. His “friends” consider him useful.
What would contemporaries of Swift make of Gulliver's conviction and sentencing?
About the height of the Lilliputians. My edition translated it wrong or they are really "almost 6 inchs tall"? I always imagined them, maybe because of media representation, as shorter than that. 1 inch maybe.
David wrote: "Gulliver earns the title of Nardac, the highest title of honor that can be given in Lilliput for preventing the invasion from Blefuscu. Keep in mind Gulliver seems quite proud of this title and ran..."Regarding #7, I was really taken by that passage:
"In choosing persons for all employments, they have more regard to good morals than to great abilities; for, since government is necessary to mankind, they believe that the common size of human understandings is fitted to some station or other, and that Providence never intended to make the management of public affairs a mystery, to be comprehended only by a few persons of sublime genius, of which there seldom are three born in an age: but they suppose truth, justice, temperance, and the like, to be in every man's power; the practice of which virtues, assisted by experience and a good intention, would qualify any man for the service of his country, except where a course of study is required. But they thought the want of moral virtues was so far from being supplied by superior endowments of the mind, that employments could never be put into such dangerous hands as those of persons so qualified; and at least, that the mistakes committed by ignorance in a virtuous disposition, would never be of such fatal consequence to the public weal, as the practices of a man whose inclinations led him to be corrupt, and had great abilities to manage, and multiply, and defend his corruptions."
I found this paragraph refreshing in some ways. Wouldn't it be great if we valued "morals" over "great abilities" and could feel confident that when things were done that harmed the public good, it was only out of ignorance (and therefore likely on a relatively small scale) and not out of evil intent? It's tempting to read this as Swift's own argument for a better society, and tempting to imagine it that way. I can think of many examples even outside of politics of things less likely to happen in a society with such values: people teaching their kids, for example, to cheat other kids in order to get ahead in school (an example that leaps to mind because I teach).
In order for this to work, however, we need to agree on what "morality" is. Swift suggests "truth, justice, temperance, and the like," as if he doesn't need to parse it out for us, but even in this section we run up against problems with his classist and sexist views that I think most of us would find abhorrent or at least questionable today. It was a pretty plain reminder, I thought, of the difficulty of agreeing upon and therefore of creating a "moral" and "just" society encapsulated--unintentionally, I think--in the space of a few pages.
Ashley wrote: "Interesting that Gulliver proclaims "that I would never be an instrument of bringing a free and brave people into slavery," and yet he is clearly an instrument of war. He is being used to induce fe..."I highlighted that sentence also, but what I wanted to know .: was the institution of slavery being debated in England in the early 1700's or was Swift just that progressive?
Chris wrote: "was the institution of slavery being debated in England in the early 1700's or was Swift just that progressive?"I found this article that claims slavery for Swift was thought of more as a political condition than the slave trade.
If Swift’s polemical writings are almost entirely silent about the practice of transatlantic slavery they are of course saturated with references to ‘slavery’ as a political concept. Investigations of this striking, puzzling and understudied feature of his pamphleteering should take account of the intellectual materials that were actually accessible to Swift, and these certainly included Locke’s Two Treatises. I have tried to explain in my article why it was that cannibalism supplied an image for the depopulation of Ireland by the predatory landlords Swift had come to hate so passionately. But cannibalism could also be viewed as the logical extreme of the kind of enslavement that was a fixation of Irish patriots and English whigs alike. To be a slave in this sense was to be subject to an absolute ruler, to live under laws passed without the consent of the people or their representatives
https://pastandpresent.org.uk/swift-l...
Rafael wrote: "About the height of the Lilliputians. My edition translated it wrong or they are really "almost 6 inchs tall"? I always imagined them, maybe because of media representation, as shorter than that. 1..."Swift is very consistent in making the Lilliputians 1/12th human size. This is one of the ways he conveys a feeling of veracity to his created world. Gulliver is not a Rabelaisian giant constantly fluctuating in size.
The hogshead he drinks in chapter 1 is hardly half a pint. If, therefore, there were 16 of these in a European gallon, 1728 (which is 12 cubed) / 16 would mean the hogshead contained 108 Lilliputian gallons, which seems a reasonable size.
In chapter 2 a bed is made for him consisting of 600 Lilliputian beds. The beds are placed four deep and 150 (a close approach to 144, which is 12 squared) on the side.
In chapter 3 the King covenants to allow Gulliver the amount of meat and drink needed to sustain 1728 Lilliputians.
While Swift does a fairly good job at scaling down the Lilliputians, Asimov points out some of the limitations on Swift's Lilliputians.If the average weight of a human being is 150 pounds or, counting 16 ounces to the pound, 2,400 ounces, the average Lilliputian would weigh 1.4 ounces. What's more, the weight of the human brain is about 3 pounds. The weight of the brain of a lilliputian would be, in proportion, 1/26 of an ounce in weight (or less than 1 gram). Since cells in living creatures are much the same in size in all animals, from insects to whales, the brain of the Lilliputian should contain not more than 60 million cells, compare to our own 100 billion.
We know of no way in which intelligence on the human level can be encompassed by a brain with only 60 million cells. In fact, a Lilliputian should be no more intelligent than a mouse. . .
. . .Then again a small organism has a much greater surface compared to its volume than a large organism of similar shape and proportions has. The small organism loses body heat at a far faster rate. To replace it, a Lilliputian would have to be constantly eating and would consume food in far greater proportion to its body weight than a large being would.
"Put not your trust in princes,. . ." is from Psalms 146:3. In Chapter 8 Gulliver resolves to:. . .never more to put any confidence in princes or ministers, where I could possibly avoid it. . .What does the earthly context of a statement like this signify is happening?
Donnally wrote: "Rafael wrote: "About the height of the Lilliputians. My edition translated it wrong or they are really "almost 6 inchs tall"? I always imagined them, maybe because of media representation, as short..."Thank you for the response. My problem was actually about the height itself. I've always imagined them shorter than that. Take the arrows. A single Lilliputian arrow would have the size of a common rose thorn, it would hurt any human if shot at us. No way they would be stopped by the hand and be just a light nuisance (I don't remember how it was phrased) by Gulliver. Even one would cause harm.
David wrote: "While Swift does a fairly good job at scaling down the Lilliputians, Asimov points out some of the limitations on Swift's Lilliputians.If the average weight of a human being is 150 pounds or, co..."
I don't know if the talk about brain size makes sense. The Neanderthal brain was bigger than our brain today. A whale is no more intelligent than us. In terms of volume the male brain is slightly bigger than the female's and all we know at least one woman smarter than their male counterparts. The brain size is not the most important component in intelligence. This is a outdated idea. Michio Kaku developed this idea in a video I had watched. I will look for it.
Edit. This is the video that I promised https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W36O.... This channel discusses "what if scenarios" and this one is what if our brains were twice the size is is now. Michio Kaku is featured in it
About the body heat. Asimov was right.
For those of you with 0.5mm mechanical pencils, If you take a 2.3 inches or 5.9 cm long piece of pencil lead, you would have a rough estimate of the size of a Lilliputian arrow.The math:
28 in. human arrow length divided by 12 = 2.3 in. or 5.9cm
6mm human arrow diameter divided by 12 = 0.5mm
I am not sure they could fire something that light with enough kinetic energy to do any damage, even at extreme close range. But even if that is so, I would not expect anyone to voluntarily lie down and have them shot into their eye.
David wrote: "Chris wrote: "was the institution of slavery being debated in England in the early 1700's or was Swift just that progressive?"I found this article that claims slavery for Swift was thought of mor..."
Thanks David!
I was surprised to learn Gulliver made it home from Lilliput and surprised again that he only stayed at home for two months before shipping out again.
For Part 1, I think Gulliver touched on these reforms mentioned his letter to his cousin:1. Party and faction to be extinguished.
The egg-endians. The low heels and the high heels.
2. The young nobility’s education entirely changed.
In his descriptions of the the Lilliputian education system.
3. Wit, merit, and learning rewarded.
Maybe not directly, but how does the idea of morals over ability fit with rewarding these traits?
Am I missing any? How effective do you think he was in suggesting reforms?
For more of Swift's thoughts on education, I recommend reading his "Essay on Modern Education".
David wrote: They write from corner to corner, and Swift takes a cheap shot at the ladies of England – who of course were caught in the vicious circle of not being considered as intelligent as men and therefore were provided less education – making them appear less intelligent. We know of cultures that write in the other directions, and even boustrophedon, alternatively left to right and then right to left, but who can tell us more about the Cascagians, who write from the bottom of the page to the top? 😊 I had noted the comment about the ladies in England writing as the Lilliputians - from corner to corner- and was wondering where that came from. Are you saying it was just a put-down about women? He was equating their supposed less intelligence with the Lilliputians? I wasn't getting the feeling that he thought the Lilliputians less intelligent, just different in their laws, customs & manners.
My notes say the Cascagians were a made-up name resembling an area relating to modern Basque. Another English swipe at France?!
David wrote: "I was surprised to learn Gulliver made it home from Lilliput and surprised again that he only stayed at home for two months before shipping out again."Me too. He was a pretty lousy husband and father!
David wrote: "I was surprised to learn Gulliver made it home from Lilliput and surprised again that he only stayed at home for two months before shipping out again."It is to Gulliver's credit that he made sure his wife and family are well-provided for before he set off on a new adventure. He leaves his wife with a sizable income, sets her up in a house, puts his son in grammar school, and ensures his daughter is pursuing the dainty task of needlework. As he puts it, “I was not in any danger of leaving my family upon the parish.”
It’s interesting that Swift makes it a point to tell us Gulliver doesn’t just gallop off into another adventure without first meeting his obligations to his family. He seems to be saying if you must go adventuring, at least make sure you have taken care of your responsibilities before you go dashing off into the sunset.
I may be reading too much into this, but it says to me Swift is sensitive to the plight of groups that have traditionally been marginalized in literature.
On #5, I am struck by how Gulliver explains his own criminality (based on Lilliput rule of law) to the reader. He does not dispute that he has violated the laws governing Lilliput, even though what is labeled as criminal seems to defy common logic. I think Swift would caution against adopting a universal moral (or legal) code. Perhaps this is why he uses the somewhat ridiculous situation in which Gulliver urinates on the castle to put out the fire. While doing was practical (for more than one reason), the image of this act (and the aftermath) is at the very least unappealing. My initial response was that this was necessary to put out the fire, so what's the big deal? Perhaps the Empress would rather have lost her residence (which she de facto did not wanting to return to a urine-soaked bedroom). While Swift is mocking Lilliput, it's not obvious that he would say their moral/legal institutions are "wrong" in some universal sense, even if they seem silly.
This was about where my young self stopped reading and I am finding chapter 6 the most interesting chapter so far. Asimov notes that Swift uses characteristics of both dystopian and utopian societies to cast light on his/our own. Is Lilliput mostly dystopian or utopian?
Here are some Lillipution society and customs, and laws.
1. They write from corner to corner, and Swift takes a cheap shot at the ladies of England – who of course were caught in the vicious circle of not being considered as intelligent as men and therefore were provided less education – making them appear less intelligent. We know of cultures that write in the other directions, and even boustrophedon, alternatively left to right and then right to left, but who can tell us more about the Cascagians, who write from the bottom of the page to the top? 😊
2. The dead are buried head-down so they are upright when they are expected to be resurrected in 11,000 moons. This is most likely a swipe a religious superstition.
3. They are flat-earthers. – Is this another swipe at the unlearned?
4. Crimes against the state are punishable by death, but if innocence is proven the accusers are put the death and the defendant is compensated. Would this an effective tactic against “witch-hunting”?
5. Fraud is worse than theft because honesty hath no Fence against superior cunning Gulliver is put to shame on his defense of fraud as just a breach of trust, which is precisely the crime as the Lilliputians are concerned.. My questions here, is Swift suggesting that the common answer that different nations have different customs is not an adequate answer and there should be more universal agreement in certain matters?
6. In a system of punishment and rewards, rewards are actually given for good and consistent behavior in the form of titles.
7. Morals are held in higher value than abilities to limit the greater amount of damage that great abilities in an immoral person can do.
8. It is unsuitable for atheists to hold public office because they do not believe in the divine providence in which the king’s authority is derived.
9. In the public rearing of the children of various social classes, is see nods, to Socrates in Plato’s republic. Is this section Swift’s answer to questions he would bring up again in his Modest Proposal?
10. The old and diseased are support by a hospital. Does this make Lilliput a welfare state?
At a dinner, Flimnap’s expresses his disfavor over the expense of Gulliver as a large standing army. Gulliver also takes at face value Flimnap’s court gossip regarding impossible claim of misconduct between himself and Flimnap’s wife and defends himself and the lady. The satire here I have learned may be two-fold. First, Swift’s friend Bishop Francis Atterbury supported Queen Anne and held considerable power under her, openly supported her half-brother, James III. With the succession of George of Hanover, Atterbury was arrested and forced into exile. It is also yet another shot at Walpole/Flimnap in that Walpole’s first wife Catherine was supposedly unfaithful to him.