The Mookse and the Gripes discussion
Booker Prize for Fiction
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2020 Booker Winner: Shuggie Bain
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Wendy, we would call it chips, eggs and beans. And yes its a working-class special. Of course, there is also mince and tatties (minced beef) and mashed potatoes.When I was a boy, every Sunday we would go to my gran's house for dinner. It was either steak pie or chicken. In those days, the early 70's that was a treat. It would be followed by homemade scones, pancakes, a rhubarb or apple pie, traybakes etc. All homemade. Then two hours later, at 8 o clock on the dot, we would all have ice cream. There would be 10 of us around the table. My gran was 4 ft 11 inches, a wee working-class 'wummin' and an absolute gem.
Just to finish this tale of Scottish food delicacies, you haven't lived until you have a deep-fried Mars Bar from a chippy. Mars Bar cooked in batter!!!! Cardiac city!!
Gumble and I used to work for an insurer, which charged significantly higher premiums for life cover to people from Glasgow due to their expected lower life expectancy.The local branch, who used to struggle to sell any business as a result, would regularly ring up and berate the chief underwriter who set the premiums.
Each time, after a heated debate, he would close his argument with "Fried Mars Bars! - I rest my case" and slam down the phone.
Doesn't being furious come with the territory of social media and Booktubing generally.I can sort of see where he is coming from in terms of the style of the novel, indeed I was having similarish thoughts overnight.
I think it is a very very worthy winner and an excellent book.
But after three years when the Booker has picked books which could have been Goldsmiths contenders (*), we're back in Costa territory.
He rather ruins his case though by pushing Real Life as an alternative winner!
And I think he is guilty - as I have been many times - of wanting the Booker to be something it isn't trying to be.
(* GWO in 2019 and Lincoln in the Bardo in 2017 were ineligible due to Goldmsith connection and nationality respectively, Milkman was omitted as the 2018 judges seemed to missed the point of the Goldsmiths)
Stephen wrote: "Wendy, we would call it chips, eggs and beans. And yes its a working-class special. Of course, there is also mince and tatties (minced beef) and mashed potatoes.When I was a boy, every Sunday we w..."
Lovely story Stephen.
And I second the "you haven't lived until..." Deep fried Mars Bars were a running joke around the time I was living in Glasgow, to the point where a woman in a chippy refused to make me one because "we don't all eat like that you know." But when I finally managed to have one, it was unexpectedly delicious. Definitely not for regular consumption though.
Paul and I both had fish and chips in late October from a "posh" fish and chip shop in Norfolk which also does fried mars bars and (even better I think) deep fried jam sandwiches.
Some Booktubers were delighted: https://youtu.be/Dxu5dYhyQFY?t=2881Also includes the press conference which is interesting.
Gumbles Yard wrote : 'Paul and I both had fish and chips in late October from a "posh" fish and chip shop in Norfolk which also does fried mars bars and (even better I think) deep fried jam sandwiches.Deep fried jam sandwiches - now you're talking. I feel a post pandemic trip to Norfolk coming on. Lol
Emily, sounds like the chippy you were in was in 'posh' Glasgow.I remember after a meeting taking a friend to my local chippy. He asked the owner if his fish and chips were good? I thought for a moment we were going to be thrown out the shop! Lol
Stephen wrote: "Gumbles Yard wrote : 'Paul and I both had fish and chips in late October from a "posh" fish and chip shop in Norfolk which also does fried mars bars and (even better I think) deep fried jam sandwic..."I am from America, land of "deep fried butter" (I kid you not) so I can't let this conversation go without a tribute to the deepest fried-iest foods of the Iowa State Fair.
https://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/08/frie...
Stephen wrote: "Deep fried jam sandwiches - now you're talking"Best served with carnation milk - there's a great restaurant in Liverpool, 60 Hope St, that has this as their signature dessert.
Ooh, I feel like a lone dissenter on this one. It’s far too baggy, and overwritten in parts. My main issue with it is the point of view, which is all over the place, sometimes within a paragraph and it keep taking me out of the story. It’s currently a DNF for me, over a third of the way through, but I might return to it because there are things to like about it.
What did that baseball capped man not like about Shuggie, other than that Douglas Stuart is a white man? I don’t want to listen to a 20 minute rant.The Booker judges change every year, do all prizes select new judges every year? I don’t feel Shuggie won because the author was a white male, the judges were a diverse group. If there was any other criteria it might have been that Shuggie is readable and in the end heartwarming.
Thank you, Stephen. I thought potato, eggs, and bean was working class meal. I’ve also had Scottish meat pies. They were good-round pot pie type with a small hole in the middle of top crust.Every working class culture has its own version of meat and veg wrapped in some sort of crust or bread for quick, one dish protein and starch rich meal.
Your gran sounds delightful. I have mostly Scottish ancestors so less than a half dozen of my relatives over 5’8”!
Carl wrote: "Ooh, I feel like a lone dissenter on this one."You're not alone, Carl. I didn't like it.
Horses for courses. I am about to start on a re-read because I liked it so much.
Horses for courses. I’ve never heard that. I’m curious to see if Douglas Stuart’s next book is as good or maybe even better. Tough to follow up a Booker winner. Shuggie Bain beat President Obama’s book for #1 in sales on Amazon. Too bad all the longlisted titles don’t get the same bump.
I ordered the Shuggie Bains for my children’s aunt, the daughter of their Glasgow grandfather.
Good to know Ang. I just wish it had had a ruthless editor.
WndyJW wrote: "Horses for courses. I’ve never heard that."I'm fairly sure it's an almost exclusively British phrase (so, sorry about that!). Obviously borrowed from the horse racing world where it is normally assumed some horses race better on certain courses rather than others i.e. some things suit some people and other things suit others. But I guess you had worked that out, so I'm not sure why I am saying all this!
Don’t apologize, Neil. British phrases come in handy. One of the games we play on family game day is Buzzed Out: two teams, one person for each team has to give clues to a word or phrase to their teammates trying to guess as many as they can before the timer buzzes, but it’s a British game so we had phrases like “as different as chalk and cheese” “fit as a butchers dog” “close your eyes and think of England” “throw a spanner in the works,” phrases we had never heard before. Made for an interesting game!
On editing and this book, the last question Bernadine Evaristo asked Douglas Stuart in their online discussion yesterday was one from Gumble's Yard himself and led on to a discussion of editing.Stuart actually found the micro level editing difficult and admitted he rejected most of the suggestions. But he said the macro comments on the book structure he did take on more. In particular, that the book should be more tightly focused on Shuggie and Agnes than he had originally planned.
Interesting. I'd like to know what he had originally planned, as I really liked the chapters from other perspectives that gave a broader view of Glasgow and the community at the time.
I assume, from what he said, having more on the other characters.
A24 and Scott Rudin Productions have won the rights to Douglas Stuart’s highly acclaimed debut novel, Shuggie Bain, with plans to adapt for television. Scott Rudin and Eli Bush will produce.“I am thrilled to be partnering with A24 and Scott Rudin Productions in bringing Shuggie Bain to the screen,” said Stuart. “I often thought of the book in cinematic terms, and the glamourous, calamitous Agnes Bain certainly believes herself to be the star of her own movie. This is a chance to show the city of Glasgow with all her tenacity and unsinkable spirit, and to celebrate the love and hope between Shuggie and Agnes.”
Stuart is set to adapt the novel himself
https://deadline.com/2020/12/a24-scot...
Quite cool to see so much love for a Glasgow novel.I've not read it yet, but will get to it eventually. My old dear currently has a copy, in the hope it will get her into reading. Thought it would be interesting for her as the author grew up around a five minute drive from where I live.
I just saw Paul’s post about the movie. I have a soft spot for Glasgow too! Welcome, Stewart!
Stewart wrote: "Quite cool to see so much love for a Glasgow novel.I've not read it yet, but will get to it eventually. My old dear currently has a copy, in the hope it will get her into reading. Thought it woul..."
Hey, Stewart, nice to see you here. Sorry I didn't care for this particular Glasgow novel but there are many I love!
I will be interested to hear what you think of it when you do read it.
The Mookse and the Gripes
Books mentioned in this topic
A Little Life (other topics)On Earth We're Briefly Gorgeous (other topics)
Shuggie Bain (other topics)
Cleanness (other topics)
Lie With Me (other topics)
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My father-in-law was from Glasgow and I remember his stories about how tough it was there, how really, really hard his uncles were on him as the “illegitimate” son of their sister, how he had to be tough to keep himself safe. We only knew him as a very charming, funny man who was deeply in love with his wife and his kids and grandkids.
Stephen, maybe you can tell me if french fries, eggs and beans is a Glasgow dish? Or some variation of potato, egg, and beans? That was my father-in-law’s favorite dinner, his comfort meal, that his wife made only for him because no one else found that combination appealing.