The Mookse and the Gripes discussion
Booker Prize for Fiction
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2020 Booker Winner: Shuggie Bain
I think I have Shuggie 2nd place, It will take something really special in the remaining books to knock it out of 2nd place for me.
How Late it Was How Late remains one of my favourite Booker winners so this was a book I was looking forward to reading. It didn't disappoint.I thought it was a simply magnificent novel from start to finish, perhaps one of the best I've read in the last couple of years. It may be gut wrenching but it has heart and sole and there is humour within it too. The dialect works really well.
Personally I don't see any closeness to A Little Life.
I also think this is an important novel in that it deals with the disaffected, the poor, those who don't leave a significant footprint in society's history. Yes it tells a grim story however, the strength of the novel lay at its core for me and that is love.
It is hard to believe this is a first novel and hard to see how the author can ever better it.
I would be delighted if this won the prize. It feels fresh and invigorating, a book that truly adds to the breadth and diversity of contemporary fiction.
I was also reminded of a previous and much underated Booker winner, Saville, set in a mining community.
I am 50 pages in and loving it! I find it hard to believe that this is the work of a debut author. There’s something in Stuart’s writing which echoes Ken Loach’s or Mike Leigh’s films.
John Self in the Times today was calling this as a possible winner and The Telegraph review last weekend was headlined “give this novel the Booker Prize”. Both reviews paywalled so I do not know any more about their reviews. There will be scenes if this is not shortlisted.
Prepare for scenes, it’s happened before.
My review of this one. What a fine, magnificent social realist work. Definitely a contender for this year's Booker, very high on my list. This is a mature, sophisticated work. https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
I finished Shuggie Bain. What a beautiful story and wonderfully written. But now I’m pondering why I gave it 5 stars and I gave The Shadow King 4 stars. I might change them. I think the reason for the difference is how much I enjoyed the act of reading the books. The Shadow King might have more beautiful sentences and themes but it took such an amount of concentration to keep at it and discover the quality of the ending. Shuggie Bain on the other hand captivated me from start to finish. It flowed. Rating books is not an exact science.
I agree, Bryn. I enjoyed reading TMATL, Shuggie Bain, Love and Other Thought Experiments, and Redhead on the Side of the Road, but I think The Shadow King was maybe more important. I enjoyed it, but not as much as I enjoyed reading the others.
WndyJW wrote: "I agree, Bryn. I enjoyed reading TMATL, Shuggie Bain, Love and Other Thought Experiments, and Redhead on the Side of the Road, but I think The Shadow King was maybe more important. I enjoyed it, bu..."hmmm, I reckon a case can be made for all of these being important in their own ways, especially Shuggie Bain. Shuggie is likely to move to my number one spot on the Booker list, yup ahead of TMATL, which surprises me but I admire it that much.
I felt that way when I finished it, but Im fickle so after reading more books and a few weeks have passed Shuggie is firmly in 2nd with TMATL in 1st.
Generally very impressed with this, although not quite my personal taste in novels (a little too long for a start - and I prefer the less conventional style of Apeirogon and Love And....). But in terms of what it is trying to do it is very successful and would be a very worthy winner.
I did find myself wondering about the narrative voice. Almost felt like rather than a third-person narrator, I was reading an account written by an older Shuggie - and given the connection to the author's own story, in a sense we are.
And as for the US cover - what were they thinking?
Paul wrote: "And as for the US cover - what were they thinking?I wonder what you think about it, Paul. I for one liked it because the novel is really more about Agnes and Shuggie as her son. The UK cover is very poignant in showing the poverty side of Shuggie's childhood, but a bit misleading (as is the book title, I think) because there is no hint about the tragic life of his mother.
It was more that the quality of the bedding involved doesn't seem quite in tune with 1980s no-longer-even-working class Glasgow - Agnes would have pawned those pillows and duvet immediately to pay for a case of Special Brew. I agree the UK one is more focused on the boy, albeit I felt we were reading Shuggie's retrospective account of his mother, i.e. I felt the title made sense.
Paul wrote: "It was more that the quality of the bedding involved doesn't seem quite in tune with 1980s no-longer-even-working class Glasgow - Agnes would have pawned those pillows and duvet immediately to pay ..."That's a good point, I agree.
I have the mother son copy, but I prefer the boy on the pole one. Actually, I’m not a fan of real people on book covers unless it’s a biography or autobiography.
Well, that was a really good read.I agree with a few others that it was a bit too long, and occasionally a bit repetitive, but I think those two "flaws" also led to its overwhelming strength -- being a portrait of a community and a city as much as of a family.
I vastly prefer the boy on a pole cover. I'd be happy with a cover with mother and son, but that cover just looks a bit Hallmark greeting card.
Recently finished and reviewed this one. Like Paul, I would have preferred more innovation in the storytelling. It felt more like a memoir written to process the author’s past. Shuggie’s relationship towards his mother felt too adoring and reverential for me, too modulated by adult wisdom and hindsight, rather than grounded in the particular time and place of the story. This may be because the author was feeling protective of his mother’s memory and legacy – had the story not been autobiographical, I think the relationship would have been portrayed very differently.
(And I agree that the US cover looks cheesy.)
Lithub has a pop interview with the author which had an interesting quote, " I never read any Dickens." I thought this interesting since the book seemed very influenced by Dickens, even to the serial like chapters that worked so well. https://bookmarks.reviews/douglas-stu...
I liked that his favourite school book was Jude the Obscure. Clearly he's got tragedy in the blood.
I guess I am going to risk stepping in it but Paul risked it with The Discomfort of Evening. In all our discussion, I found little praise for the humor in Shuggie, black though it was. I thought that was its strongest feature and quite reminded me of Dickens.
Agreed, my brief review (as I came to it late) on this one says the black humour of the Pitside community was perhaps the book's highlight
Emily wrote: "I vastly prefer the boy on a pole cover. I'd be happy with a cover with mother and son, but that cover just looks a bit Hallmark greeting card...."Before I read it I preferred the 'bed' cover, but now I'm firmly in the 'pole' group.
In a book with so much poignancy, I'm somehow most affected by a tiny instance - (view spoiler)
But_i_thought_ wrote: " Like Paul, I would have preferred more innovation in the storytelling. It felt more like a memoir written to process the author’s past.."This is what I thought too while I was reading it, but now I think this more straightforward, meat and potatoes approach suits the story. I like the sense of memoir.
I don’t recall humor, but I didn’t I find the book depressing. I loved that Agnes taught Shuggie to keep dancing and keep his head up at all times no matter how he feels inside.
Humour wise, I was thinking of scenes like when Bridie and her gang had Agnes "neckin' vodka like it's tap water" while they all were "drinking piss cold tea."
I didn't find the book particularly depressing either, except in isolated moments (i.e. Shuggie's unfortunate taxi ride). I think knowing that it's semi-autobiographical and that the author turned out okay helps a lot in that department (rather like Angela's Ashes).
The scenes with the women in the neighborhoods were humorous.
I recognize I am in a distinct minority (of 1?) but I really did not like this book. It read like a misery memoir, quite repetitive and relentless. I found a lot of humour in Angela's Ashes, but none in this. I hope it does not win, but if it does, it does.
Ang wrote: "I recognize I am in a distinct minority (of 1?) but I really did not like this book. It read like a misery memoir, quite repetitive and relentless. I found a lot of humour in Angela's Ashes, but no..."Hi Ang - you're not alone there! I found the mood of the book very wallowing / draining and the character of Agnes not as admirable or saintly as the author portrays her to be. For me, the book did not cover any new ground in its depiction of poverty and addiction either. I wanted it to surprise me more.
The tide has turned on Shuggie Bain. I think it is one of the more popular books on the shortlist, but it has not advanced in other awards.
The tide has come back in (as they tend to do!)
While it's obviously not a reason to give him a prize, every time I see Stuart interviewed I just think he's the most lovely man.
Hopefully they will reissue the US edition to celebrate ... with a Booker winner sticker, and a cover that isn't from an interior design catalogue!
Paul wrote: "Hopefully they will reissue the US edition to celebrate ... with a Booker winner sticker, and a cover that isn't from an interior design catalogue!"I agree the US cover needs a rework. Do you have more details on the interior design catalogue reference (where is the image from)?
I am so glad that Shuggie Bain won. For me, it was by far the best book on a very disappointing short list.
Actually the image is a photo from the late (died 2016) British photographer Peter Marlow (and I think may even be the photographers wife and son)This of his might have been a better one: https://content.magnumphotos.com/wp-c...
And Stuart himself I think may have chosen it:I have loved this intimate Peter Marlow photograph forever. I think it captures perfectly the fierce love that Shuggie has for his troubled mother.
Paul wrote: "And Stuart himself I think may have chosen it:I have loved this intimate Peter Marlow photograph forever. I think it captures perfectly the fierce love that Shuggie has for his troubled mother."
Hmmm, there's a reason writers are writers, and cover designers are cover designers I think. Seen in the context of Marlow's body of work, it's interesting. Seen on the cover of Shuggie Bain....
The fierce love works, the pristine sheets and pillow ...
Paul wrote: "Actually the image is a photo from the late (died 2016) British photographer Peter Marlow and was chosen by Grove to illustrate a deep mother-son relationshipThis of his might have been a better ..."
This convention of using "emotive" black and white photography for the depiction of queer experience and childhood trauma is getting a bit tired, no?
There’s a pattern here, looking at the cover designs:
A Little Life
On Earth We're Briefly Gorgeous
Shuggie Bain
Cleanness
Lie With Me
etc
On Earth We're Briefly Gorgeous also had a very different cover in the UK. I can't speak to the others.
Emily wrote:Hmmm, there's a reason writers are writers, and cover designers are cover designers I think."Well in this case it would be better to say - there is a reason why knitwear designers design knitwear and not book covers.
Hurray! My personal choice would be Apeirogon but, since they chose not to even shortlist it, I am so happy that Shuggie Bain won. A well-deserved winner!
The BBC just featured my tweet about the book (20:28) which was a bit of a nice shock as I was scrolling through their coverage. Shortly followed by Nicola Sturgeon!https://www.bbc.co.uk/events/erx3v2/l...
Vesna wrote: "Hurray! My personal choice would be Apeirogon but, since they chose not to even shortlist it, I am so happy that Shuggie Bain won. A well-deserved winner!"Agreed!
I’m very happy for Douglas Stuart, who I agree seems a lovely man. I liked the book and happy it won, but I would have been equally happy to see any of the others, except Real Life or New Wilderness. I wish poor Agnes knew that her son grew up to find happiness and success and that he remembers her with love and compassion.
The Mookse and the Gripes
Books mentioned in this topic
A Little Life (other topics)On Earth We're Briefly Gorgeous (other topics)
Shuggie Bain (other topics)
Cleanness (other topics)
Lie With Me (other topics)
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I reread my comment and realized it sounded harsher than I intended. I also found much to love in this book and currently have it ranked second of the longlisted titles I've read so far. I think COVID-19 has made it harder for me to read emotionally heavy books. I'm also trying to examine my preconceptions that a book has to be serious to be awards-worthy.