The Mookse and the Gripes discussion
Booker Prize for Fiction
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2020 Booker Winner: Shuggie Bain
I really loved this - I hope many of you do also. I would be very pleased to see this win.It is a desperately moving, heartbreaking book: one which places hope and despair, love and brokenness on the same page, treating them with equal weight and empathy.
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Gumble's Yard wrote: "I really loved this - I hope many of you do also. I would be very pleased to see this win.It is a desperately moving, heartbreaking book: one which places hope and despair, love and brokenness on..."
This... I just read your review and some others and immediately ordered it. I will find the time and headspace to read this.
You may need two things Ella:- several boxes of tissues
- a Glaswegian slang dictionary (I think for anyone UK based they would know enough to pick it up)
- a strong historical dislike for Margaret Thatcher (and her terrible assault on the industrialised working classes) also assists.
I’m really looking forward to this one too. I bought this when it first came out and just haven’t gotten to it yet.
OK - I've got two of the three. I actually may even have something close to three. I own an older Edinburgh slang dictionary from the early bits of Trainspotting series b/c I always read the original UK editions of those.
Edinburgh - that won't cut it Ella :-) Its like a different world and a very different accent
The characters in the book even pick up different Glaswegian accents (that bit is beyond me)
Any recommendations of a Glaswegian Slang Dictionary, either in print or online, GY? [This is a sincere request. You can often get by with slang but things take on a whole other meaning when you actually understand what is being said.]
This I am very interested in. My children’s grandfather grew up in Glasgow, he was a charming wee man who was quite a brawler and with stories of a very rough childhood in Glasgow.
Little family trivia: their other grandfather, my dad, grew up in New Glasgow, Nova Scotia.
I listened to this one, and I think that enhanced the book for me. I can easily see this winning.
Dylan wrote: "Any recommendations of a Glaswegian Slang Dictionary, either in print or online, GY? [This is a sincere request. You can often get by with slang but things take on a whole other meaning when you ac..."I second that request. Online seems slim pickins on a quick glance.
Wiktionary seems to have decided all of Scotland goes in one bag and it seems full of fairly obvious words.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Append...
I also tried to see if there was an "urban dictionary" for Glasgow, but I failed to find one.
This is the one I've used before for one or two words here and there, but I can't imagine it would work for a whole book full: http://www.glasgowvant.com/glaswegian...
There must be an actual book, so any help would be appreciated.
This is high on my list of reads from the longlist. My local library has copies and I'm high on the reserve list, so hope to get it soon.
Ella wrote: "Dylan wrote: "Any recommendations of a Glaswegian Slang Dictionary, either in print or online, GY? [This is a sincere request. You can often get by with slang but things take on a whole other meani..."Those links will be more than fine Ella particularly the second . Although it’s a little weak. As an example - flittin’ is a key concept in the book but the dictionary definition in that link misses the undercover nature of it. Just Googling “what is flittin” works better.
I would not want to over emphasise the dialect in this (my initial post was more to get in this, the tissues and Thatcher as a quick summary of the book).
Firstly the actual narration is not in dialect (albeit it has some slang scattered around) - it’s only some of the dialogue.
Secondly it’s a long book so I think one quickly gets the ear for it.
Or read Flittin' by John BuchananYe may lay yer plans aforehaun',
Days afore it gin ye care,
Ha'e the cheenie nately packit,
An' the wa's a' strippit bare;
The chair-bottoms tied thegither,
An' the extra bed taen doon;
But ye're no' much faurer forrit
When the flittin' day comes roun'.
Comes with a glossary at http://www.rampantscotland.com/poetry... although they've decided flittin' needs no translation
Although I always thought of "moonlight flittin'" as the more undercover (of darkness) version
This is the book I'm looking forward to the most.
Mod
I agree, Hugh. I am a big Kelman fan and have had no difficulty understanding the dialect (my husband is from Edinburgh so would have been no help!)
I think the difference from Kelman is I thought that had the narrative in dialect (I may be wrong). This is very different if that is the case.
Mod
Yes, but the dialect was never difficult for anyone who has met a few Glaswegians. Compared to Nan Shepherd's 1920s rural Aberdonian it was pretty easy.
Hugh wrote: "Yes, but the dialect was never difficult for anyone who has met a few Glaswegians.."True. And I think I have met more Glaswegians than my husband has (I am hardly exaggerating!!!)
"Gumble's Yard wrote: "I really loved this - I hope many of you do also. I would be very pleased to see this win.It is a desperately moving, heartbreaking book: one which places hope and despair, love and brokenness on the same page, treating them with equal weight and empathy"
Ella wrote: This...
Thanks Ella - the author liked that description also which was nice.
I ordered this more or less the day it was published and still haven't read it because I dread the heartache, and I'm made wary from the comparisons with A Little Life, which I really was affected by. I need to remember it's just a book!
I struggle to follow The Little Life comparisons although I can see one way in which there is a connection. But the class/economic and geographical setting really could not be more different.
One overwhelming impression I had of the book was of time and space: the time it must have taken to write and to craft, and the space it gives the reader to really get to know the characters and to experience the life they lead. This is a book where the length of the narrative and the apparent circularity of the action is crucial to conveying the character’s experiences.
I just ordered it and would have even if it hadn’t been Longlisted. I’m really looking forward to this as well.
This is one I have on reserve with my library and coming up soon for me but thinking about buying to add to my collection as it were.
I started it Yesterday and listened to about 1 hour and a half. My first impression was OMG, I do not understand a single word from the dialogue. The narrator is excellent with the accent, he does change it depending on the speaker. English is my 2nd language and I have 0 experience with the Glaswegian accent. However, after 45 minutes or so I started to understand more and more. As Tracy says, I believe it enhances the book so I will try to stick with the audio. I'll also keep some tissues handy. Only looking at the cover makes me cry.
Gumble's Yard wrote: "I think the difference from Kelman is I thought that had the narrative in dialect (I may be wrong). This is very different if that is the case." You are right, it is in dialect. I've only read a few pages but I remember this detail.
I'm eager to see why this book drawn so many comparisons to A Little Life- I know Yanagihara's novel isn't very popular in this forum (the criticisms of which I can totally understand), but it's one of my all-time favourite novels. I'm really excited to read this one.
Mod
I'm only a quarter of the way through it, but I think Stuart is a superb writer. Yes, there is a lot of agony and woe in these pages (and I don't expect that to suddenly change in the remainder of the book), but what's striking is how much yearning and pathos there is underneath the pain. I find that a very humane and, perhaps strangely, positive perspective. In other words, as much despair as there is, and as much abuse -- physical and psychological -- as there is, Stuart is not simply recounting gloom. He has a way of providing a kind of punchline that fits well while also pushing back on the dread; and these function to humanize the characters as well.
Anyway, I'm surprised at how much this book is already affecting me and am excited to let Stuart continue to do his work.
I am so pleased Trevor - I think you are experiencing what I did and tried to summarise in comment 2 of the thread.
Mod
A gifted writer can write about dysfunctional families without making them one dimensional and hard to relate to. Adelle Stripe’s Black Teeth and a Brilliant Smile is an admirable example of a story of a family in poverty with addiction, alcoholism, abuse, and all the expected tropes of poverty stories, but never does she lose track of each person’s humanity and dignity and so neither does the reader. It sounds like Douglas Stuart achieved this as well.
Just finished reading this book and I don’t know if my heart will ever recover! Agnes is such a vivid character. Due to personal circumstances I had to read this in quite a disjointed manner - I think it would be much more immersive if I was able to read in larger chunks. I think this one will stay with me for a while though.
I want to read this so badly, I'm ready to storm the library and take a copy hostage. Maybe I should just break my rules and buy it...
Beautiful Suzanne.
Mod
I finished Shuggie Bain last evening. I've not yet written my review but it was a 5* read. It is much more realistic than A Little Life (which I liked). The Glaswegian slang was not a problem. I don't dislike Maggie Thatcher, other than her liking of Ronald Reagan. I did not need several boxes of tissues but it was a sad and heartbreaking story. I wanted to give Eugene a "Gibbs" slap and beat the crap out of Big Shug. I've seen the damage that demon drink can wreck.
A few months old but an interesting interview with the author which I saw in Doug’s reviewhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg8K_...
What appeals to me in this book is the old-school 3rd-person storytelling (I think somebody in the blurbs called it “old-school lyrical realism”). Every now and then I prefer it to the rather more obscure postmodern style or the confessional autofictive 1st person. Sometimes those two are arguably easier to spew on the page, compared to the careful handling of characters and plot in this one. I don’t know if that makes sense. And it surprises me that I like it that much, considering my usual inclination for more experimental prose!I also liked how the queer aspect is handled in the novel.
Not entirely sure what keeps me from upgrading the 4.5* to 5 stars – it was a touching and memorable story that at times resonated strongly. Time and perspective will tell. There are some promising titles still to be read from the longlist.
I have just finished this. I need to get my thoughts in order before attempting anything that might be called a review, but it will have 5 stars attached to it.Part way through, it occurred to me that this is the second book I have read this year where the book's title is the name of a son but the book itself is more the story of a mother called Agnes.
(The other one is Hamnet, in case you are wondering).
I thought it was good but it didn't wow me as much as it did otheres here. Probably because I don't think the flashback-structure worked very well. The book opens in 1992, and we already know too much of SB (where he ended up and we can also guess why) to make the rather slow-paced backstory of the last ten years very engaging. And for me, Shuggie Bain never quite came alive as a teenager (or child), he always felt like a much older person looking back.
I just finished it and I know Shuggie will stay with me forever. It sounds like this is also based on Douglas Stuart’s life. In the acknowledgements he mentions his mother’s struggles, thanks his brother for doing all that he could and mentions his sister. Douglas Stuart did a beautiful job of showing us the pain, humiliations, deprivation, and squalor of poverty in post-industrial Glasgow, life in the tenements, and most importantly life as the child of an alcoholic without making caricatures of the people in Shuggie’s world.
It’s a moving, heartbreaking, hopeful story and without reading the others yet, I would be happy if it won, though that could be the immediate afterglow of having just finished it.
If the audio book is narrated by a Glaswegian I know I wouldn’t understand it! I think most of the slang was fairly easy to figure out by the context.
This interview over the weekend gives a lot of the background. https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/1...
WndyJW wrote: "I just finished it and I know Shuggie will stay with me forever. It sounds like this is also based on Douglas Stuart’s life. In the acknowledgements he mentions his mother’s struggles, thanks his b..." I have no problem with the accent and English is not my first language. I did at first but After 5 or 6 hours I don’t even notice it. I only listen to 30 min or so per day so It will take a while to finish.
That link didn’t open to the article, or I couldn’t find it anyway. I’ll look it up. I’d like to know and Im meager to discuss with spoilers!
I was able to read the article. He isn’t Shuggie Bain and those aren’t exactly his experiences, but he was a gay boy with an alcoholic mother in Glasgow tenements.
This flirted with misery porn for me. I see why some people have compared it to A Little Life. It had a similar compulsive darkness to it that made me grotesquely eager to turn the page and see what new terrors would be wrought upon the protagonist next. I felt a bit mired in the first half of the book and its depiction of the repetitive, cyclical trauma of life with an alcoholic, but this also set it up to deliver some real gut punches when big changes did happen. The pace picked up in the second half once Shuggie got a little older and his perspective emerged, and I was relieved by the unexpectedly hopeful ending. I am not surprised to learn the book is semi-autobiographical. Something about the tangible details of life with an alcoholic rang distinctly true to me even though I don't have that experience. And while a gifted writer could accomplish that through deep research and empathy, given that this is a debut novel it would have been a true feat for it not to be based in fact.
Edinburgh book festival event with Maaza Mengiste and Douglas Stuart as well as Paul Mendez (who has a strong Booker connection of his own) https://www.edbookfest.co.uk/the-fest...
Great question at the end.
I felt Shuggie Bain was more hopeful and less dismal than How Much of These Hills is Gold, but Shuggie definitely had a very rough life. The book could have been titled Shuggie and Agnes Bain, so much of Shuggie’s world revolved around his mother, but Agnes didn’t see the world through anyone’s eyes but her own, she couldn’t have written about Shuggie’s challenges like Shuggie wrote about hers.I agree it would be a challenge for someone to write about the daily indignities and challenges of loving an alcoholic mother that well without experiencing it. Writers do it all the time of course, but Stuart captured something that made the book special, at least to me.
The Mookse and the Gripes
Books mentioned in this topic
A Little Life (other topics)On Earth We're Briefly Gorgeous (other topics)
Shuggie Bain (other topics)
Cleanness (other topics)
Lie With Me (other topics)
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Shuggie Bain, by Douglas Stuart
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