Reading Peace discussion
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New Book
Sounds good to me :) I'm all set and ready to go. Just say when :)
Sounds like there's agreement on reading the Heart of the Buddha's Teaching. We might want to notify Jason so that he can at least update the book that shows up as "currently reading" for this group. Last fall I was in a study group that worked through one chapter of this book every two weeks. It seemed like a good pace and provided some structure to the study. I also do have some study questions and materials from that group I can share (though they are for chapters in the middle of the book!)
I also just messaged Jason about all of this. For some reason, I didn't see all of the messages in the thread about this a few minutes ago. :)
I have the book on order, I look forward to reading it and joining the discussion.
Should we just go ahead and start?Elaine suggested we start out with the first four chapters since they're short. We might think about taking two weeks to work through them and start reading and posting questions and comments.
Lisa, I'm glad you have some materials. Personally I got bogged down in the middle of the book when reading it before, so that's a good section to have stuff for.
How do we want to handle facilitation? I haven't heard back from Jason yet but it's only been a couple days.
Hello all! I think beginning to read the first four chapters, which are quite short, over the next two weeks is a good idea. Hopefully we hear from Jason soon :)
My partner & I will be reading together. We'll start this weekend, as we drive back & forth to help at the Buddha Relics Tour. Such an auspicious start! :)
Hello, I'm new here and I'd love to participate. I have no idea how it works, what to do, if it is possible to really feel part of this sangha. I already have the book on my ereader, looking forward to join in.
Warmest regards from Anneke (a Dutchy who lives in France)
Hi and welcome to all the new folks! Anneke (and Anneliese and anyone else who's new), there's an Introductions thread where you can tell us a bit about yourselves. After that, just jump in and make comments whenever you feel like it.I'll start reading "The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching" today.
Sparrow Knight, what is the Buddha Relics Tour?
The Maitreya Lovingkindness Relic Tour...http://www.maitreyarelictour.com
These small items are believed to be physical manifestations of enlightened beings wisdom & compassion, found in the ashes after cremation of the body.
Hi Folks,I haven't heard back from Jason, so maybe we should just go ahead and start reading the book.
I'd be happy to pose a couple questions about the first four chapters (once I read them!).
What would a facilitator do?
So just to clarify - we are reading the first 4 chapters? Sounds like perhaps Jacki has volunteered to be the first facilitator?! This is my first reading with this group, so do we wait for questions, or do we post our own, post comments as they occur to us? Do we have a timeline? Thank you!
I think we can do pretty much whatever we want as long as we practice loving speech and deep listening and don't veer off too far into the philosophical. I'm struck by the sentence on the first page of Chapter One: "The seed of suffering in you may be strong, but don't wait until you have no more suffering before allowing yourself to be happy."
There is so much suffering in the world right now and one of my cousins just lost a daughter to illness but the feel of the breeze on my skin and sight of the sun on the nearby lake are still sources of beauty and happiness. They are every bit as real and true as the pain and help keep me afloat.
Thanks to all who participate in this digital sangha. I look forward to beginning to read The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching and reading and typing together: walking meditation for the eyes and fingers, perhaps, which need such meditation to walk the crisscrossing paths of the internet.
"Without suffering, you cannot grow. Without suffering, you cannot get the peace and joy you deserve. Please don't run away from your suffering. Embrace it and cherish it."Learning how to sit with my suffering and not get tossed about by it was very hard for me. And now that I have some skill, it's come to my attention that perhaps it's not so much skill as I'm just in a pause moment, that I may have created a safe bubble around myself that prevents my 'equanimity' being challenged. I am asking myself...have I matured at all or have I just gotten better at avoiding suffering? Has my sphere of activity grown larger or smaller in the last few years?
Gratitude to you all for the chance to hear your reflections on this great book.On the first page of chapter one: "...I teach only suffering and the transformation of suffering." When we recognize and acknowledge our own suffering, the Buddha -- which means the Buddha in us -- will look at it, discover what has brought it about, and prescribe a course of action that can transform it into peace, joy and liberation.
I love that the foundation of Buddha's teaching is that there is a way out of suffering. Amazing to think that this applies to seemingly insoluble problems -- the conflict in the Middle East, ebola, racism. My own problems with anxiety, the loss of Elaine's cousin's daughter.
Amazing too that we have within ourselves the wisdom to see courses of action that can transform suffering.
I'm glad to facilitate for the first four chapters. I'm not sure what the facilitator does. Maybe I could pose a question every couple of days? What do you all think?
And anyone else who wants to pose questions should jump right in.
QUESTION: How does your spiritual practice lead you out of suffering?
Vicki wrote: "So just to clarify - we are reading the first 4 chapters? Sounds like perhaps Jacki has volunteered to be the first facilitator?! This is my first reading with this group, so do we wait for questi..."As far as a timeline, both "two weeks for chapters 1-4" and "open-ended" were proposed, right?
I'm glad to facilitate for chapters 1-4 and would vote for "open-ended." Maybe the group could have consensus about when we've finished a section.
Elaine made a good comment: I think we can do pretty much whatever we want as long as we practice loving speech and deep listening and don't veer off too far into the philosophical.
I like this from page 3: The seed of suffering in you may be strong, but don't wait until you have no more suffering before allowing yourself to be happy.
My spiritual practice leads me out of suffering by recognizing and embracing suffering instead of running away from it and by recognizing that everything is inter-connected I feel less alone.
My practice continues to lead me out of suffering because it reminds me that my career is not the world, nor is my Romantic relationship. Only if I make space for my breathing, and through it, emptiness, with the help of Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha, can I be a better professor to my students, a better partner to my significant other, and a better man to all beings I encounter. The few glimmers of bodhichitta I have experienced during meditation have shown me that concentration and mindfulness are necessary to expand the circle of my compassion and my ability to act on it.
Dear Jon, Such a beautiful post! Your words made my day and furthered my peace. They really touched my heart. I just want to thank you for sharing. Peace and thank you! Dr. Denise
First, gratitude to all who are sharing so beautifully. I have been struck by so much in the few pages we read. I, too, have struggled with grasping at my own suffering; generally this is not about my own life but about the awareness of the suffering I read about in the news, hear about from my therapy clients, learn about from people I love, knowing because of my work as an animal rights activist. It is TOO easy to sit in that space, and Thay's and the dharma's wisdom are the means that I am learning to use to notice those healthy trees in the garden as well! "To suffer is not enough. Please don't be imprisoned by your suffering".
I was also very struck by "if you destroy your health, you have no energy left to realize the path". I realized there are many ways to destroy health. I tend to good care of myself, but I can be too busy, and that destroys health and energy. If stuck in suffering or despair, that can destroy health and energy. So I am thinking in another way now about self-care and self-compassion.
Elaine, may you and your cousin feel our loving-kindness after the death of her child. May you be well, may you be peaceful and at ease, may you be happy, even in the midst of grief. My cousin Vanessa has a very sick boy, Elijah, who has stage 4 neuroblastoma. She is staying at the Ronald McDonald House in Manhattan near a children's hospital that has a distinguished pediatric oncology unit and sometimes gets to see her other two kids and her husband, currently working I. Scranton, PA. My practice has allowed me to project compassion toward Elijah and his family by dedicating the heart sutra to them and noticing and rejoicing in all the love and support they are getting as I follow the Team Elijah Facebook page set up by Vanessa's sister in law, and giving a few dollars and words of encouragement when I can. May we have loving-kindness toward Elijah and his family. May they be well. May they be peaceful and at ease. May they be happy. Sensei Ed taught our sangha this prayer as part of Metta meditation, and I am grateful to him for it.
Jon, thank you for your kind words. I know my cusin must be suffering but she has a strong, sustaining practice herself, in another tradition. My heart goes out to Vanessa and Elijah. I think a child's serious illness and death, even when the child is an adult, may be the worst loss a person can be handed by life. Metta and eventual peace to all beings.
The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching by Thich Nhat Hanh. By the way, if anybody did not read the latest update on Thay's health, you can go to Plumvillage.org. There is a beautiful and lengthy description of Thay's current condition, which is improving in a rather miraculous way, especially for an 89 year old!
I meant to add, also, that we are reading the first four chapters at this point.
I am laughing at myself as I see so many mental habits arising themselves as I read these lovely posts. I could say I have a seriously over-developed case of 'Fix-it' karma. I was gladdened to read Thay's health update & his determination to walk again...& I immediately wanted to send him one of those new fangled exo-skeletons to help his body re-learn that ability. And help the monk that stoops to move Thay's leg over & over.
Fix-it, fix-it, fix-it...& the frustration of not being able to, to not have things go the way I think they should, the discomfort of the irresolution or frustration. So uncomfortable, so disturbing, so hard to keep my mental seat!
I can relate, Sparrow Knight. Let me pass on to you some words of wisdom from Daishin Eric McCabe, a Zen priest who helped lead our sangha's quarterly meditation retreat: "Be mindful, but not TOO mindful." His calligraphy of the kanji for mindfulness and this slogan in English rests on my meditation shrine reminding me that guilt, self-criticism, and obsession is, perhaps, too much mindfulness.
Jon wrote: "I can relate, Sparrow Knight. Let me pass on to you some words of wisdom from Daishin Eric McCabe, a Zen priest who helped lead our sangha's quarterly meditation retreat: "Be mindful, but not TOO m..."LOL...couldn't help yourself, eh? ;-)
'Fix-it' can be as habitual & compulsive as judgement, in fact often actually IS judgement all dressed up.
I resonate with "fix it" mind! And I know what a relief it is when I can sink into the "really don't have control of this" mind. And yet, there is such a power to wanting everybody to be fine, and even more problematic, thinking I know how to accomplish that! I think of "idiot compassion", (Chogyam Trungpa's phrase, I think) and how often I might try to fix something because of MY discomfort, not because of what the other person might want/need. I won't go so far as to say that we can never "fix" something, ie, help, but maybe that help is far more subtle - a listening ear, holding a hand, offering soup.....
I love that term "idiot compassion." I was just reading the second chapter about the first dharma talk. The Four Noble Truths are so full of hope -- there really is a way out of suffering and we can find it, even when we are puzzled and feeling discouraged about being able to change.
Perhaps the mirror image of "fix-it mind" is "demoralized mind," when we feel that there is no way out of some problem or source of suffering. I lean more towards this and can lose sight of the wisdom and intelligence and competence of my Buddha nature.
Jon, my heart goes out to your cousin and her family. I hope the other children are feeling embraced by family and friends.
Vicki wrote: "I resonate with "fix it" mind! And I know what a relief it is when I can sink into the "really don't have control of this" mind. And yet, there is such a power to wanting everybody to be fine, and ..."Spot on, Vicki. :-)
So often, at least for myself, 'fix-it' is an avoidance tactic, a strategy of ego trying to protect itself from a sense of inadequacy or invisibility. Only by NOT following that impulse have I found the underlying conditioning, & dealing more directly through sitting with the fear of invisibility, powerlessness, have I found some liberation from it.
One of the things I noticed in reading the Pali canon was that mostly the Buddha waited to be asked a question, asked for advice. I began to practice that way, waiting for someone to ask for my clever ideas. Over & over they didn't! Being aware of how that affected me was revealing.
These days, I am much better–still a long way from perfect–at not rushing in to fix things, but trusting & respecting that the other person is best qualified to deal with their own life...they're the expert.
Skillful means...as you say: soup, listening, game night. OK, you didn't say game night, but I am finding it a real gift I can offer in support. :0)
Perhaps we can add Chapter 2 to our discussion, "The First Dharma Talk?"Thay writes that three points characterize this sutra: the Middle Way, the Four Noble Truths, and engagement in the world.
Several people resonate with "fix-it mind," which is perhaps a way of trying to control things that make us uncomfortable or seem threatening.
What wisdom does the first dharma talk provide as we move through a universe full of things outside our control?
I need to review Chapter 2, but first, I have been meaning to post this quote from Matthew Fox; he is not someone I have paid much attention to but I was quite taken with his interview in Sun Magazine. He says he "practice(s) acceptance, letting things be, letting go. When you develop that abiity to let go, you can see the world as it is and choose a course of action without reactive judgment or projecting or overreacting". This of course fits well with our dharma practice; it was very clarifying for me that this not trying to "fix" may not mean I do nothing at all, (although perhaps that will be the case), but that I hopefully will come to a deeper understanding and then develop a right action plan, even if that plan is to rest in "not fixing" and cultivating equanimity. I feel like the universe has been sending more of these moments lately so I think I am being offered those opportunities we both dread and appreciate! Learning to use skillful means, as Sparrow notes.
Somehow that strikes me as still too outwardly focused...the things being outside of ourselves. What fix-it mind is for me is a way to avoid something inside. Old karma that I actually can have control over if I let go of following fix-it mind & turning my attention to the discomfort/fear that fix-it is an expression of. Only by sitting, attending to the sensations that come up when I don't act have I been able to compassionately hold that suffering.The first Noble Truth, you should Know suffering, to me says drop the story, stay w/the sensations, the physical/psychic discomfort in its rawer form. The Second Noble Truth, you should know the causes of suffering, for me is watching stories arise, how the body/mind responds, the conceptual elaborations that push/pull me into actions.
My sitting group has just started studying Cheri Huber's "The Fear Book" & she points out that it isn't fear that keeps us safe, it's intelligence. When we sit & practice the First & Second Noble Truths, become intimate w/our lives & our suffering just this moment, we bring our intelligence into play, change the equation, develop a new & clearer relationship w/old patterns & liberate our lives from ancient patterns of fear.
I've moved on to the next chapter, Chap. 5: Is Everything Suffering?I concurrently study with a Tibetan group that teaches the 3 types of suffering, tho' it's phrased a bit differently. Manifest suffering (dropping a brick on one's foot), changing suffering (one's favorite dessert), pervasive suffering (the sense of self & an undercurrent of dissatisfaction). I don't know that they consider suffering as one of the Dharma Seals, but there does seem to be little room for taking simple pleasure in the good things in life.
I have benefitted from the teachings on changing suffering, seeing how getting invested in impermanent phenomena, thinking that if I only had X, I'd be happy, is one of the ways I create suffering for myself, because of course so often longing for X is taking me out of the moment & practicing greed & ignorance. Attending to how craving & attachment are nourished by constantly seeking the pleasant has taught me how to hold things more lightly.
What are others experience of this?
As I'm getting older -- I'm 57 -- life is presenting me with all kinds of impermanence and I have to admit I'm suffering with it. My mother-in-law is very sick and it's hard watching my husband's grief. My brother is also quite sick. A friend yesterday was talking about one brother who just died and another one who has cancer.
I love how the Buddha just faced suffering head on and based his whole dharma on the relief of suffering.
Which is not to say that there's not a whole ton of joy in life, too. I love how Thay keeps saying we need to look for the joy whatever our circumstances, because it's there.
If he could maintain joy and equanimity during the Viet Nam war, this Middle Way is certainly worth investigating.
An update came out today on Thay's health & progress. He has come to the US for further therapy & there's a fund-raiser link in the article.http://plumvillage.org/news/an-update...
Jacki, I resonate with the losses that come with aging; I'm 65. Certainly there have been losses earlier in life, but they do tend to speed up as we age. I try to balance that with the joys of aging as well; increased wisdom (I hope!), a perspective on what is truly important, changes in my life that are positive. But still, there are those losses that can't be denied. I find it very difficult to think about, for example, my best friends not being here; perhaps a lesson in the importance of being in the moment, truly enjoying what/who is with me now. Of course, it is easier to be philosophical when I'm not in the middle of coping with a loss. To link with Sparrow's posting about Thay, I am so taken with his dignity and courage and ability to be happy in the midst of his own suffering. He truly lives what he teaches. I realize, though, that I fall into the trap of thinking it must be easy since it LOOKS easy; but I know it truly is difficult and must guard against using that difficulty as an excuse to think I am failing in some way when my equanimity deserts me!
Also regarding Sparrow's comment - I am also clearer on the uses of pleasure seeking and that the unconscious (usually) belief that some "thing" will bring happiness leads me away from truly practicing and living in this moment with gratitude. It's one thing to shop for a couch, which I'm doing today; it's another to think that couch will bring some desired state of mind/being.
Thinking a lot about the quote - "dwelling happily in things as they are".
"Another common misunderstanding of the Buddha's teaching is that all of our suffering is caused by craving."In revisiting the fifth chapter before going on to the sixth, this caught my attention. Of course, my experience has been different, I thought, but then on second thought I guess this is the popular misconception in the wider culture. That if one doesn't want things, then one will be happy. Which does seem a bit unrealistic...I mean the Buddha does teach the 5 necessary things: shelter, food, clothing, medicine, & being known (aka community). And he also understood that poverty is at the root of a goodly measure of suffering. Should one just not want to not be impoverished or having bombs dropped on one's neighborhood or long for rain to end the famine caused by drought? It's really rather offensive to think that if people would just give up craving, they would be happy.
We'll all just float around in diaphanous drapery with blissful vacant expressions on our faces...seems I've come across this idea somewhere before. ;0)
On a Tibetan thangka of the Wheel of Life & Death, the very center depicts the root causes of suffering, the Three Poisons, in the form of 3 animals. The pig, representing ignorance, the cock representing greed, & the snake representing ill will. In some, the cock & snake are emerging from the pig's mouth, showing that greed & ill will arise from wrong view, a deliberate ignoring of the nature of reality, it's complete interdependence, fluidity, & lack of substantial existence.
So what's the wise view of craving not wanting bombs being dropped on one's head, not wanting one's children to not die of dysentery, of longing to be listened to, heard in a meaningful way? What's the wise view of the rush of emotions that arise with the death from rapidly advancing cancer of a long time partner in marriage, while you yourself are facing major surgery to remove a possibly cancerous mass in your abdomen? This is the situation a family friend is currently going through. How absurd to suggest she merely give up craving & her suffering will be over.
It's not so easy to reduce the human condition to such a simple palliative. In fact, I think it's rather unhinged, a striking example of highly developed ignorance in the truly Buddhist sense...not just a simple not knowing, but a deliberate turning away from the nature of reality. A complicit blindness.
My heart goes out to your suffering loved ones, Sparrow Knight and Jacki. Thank you for sharing your wisdom about craving/greed and fix-it mind; this mind, and my craving for students to find my teaching witty and dynamic, has caused suffering. Desiring healthy recognition from them and truly useful learning FOR them seems like a wiser mind worth cultivating.
Jon is bringing up an excellent point. All desires are not craving. I wonder if intention is the key difference. So his example of the motivational difference regarding teaching is helpful. Certainly, my desire to practice is what leads me to practice, but then I can certainly look more deeply into that desire. If it's for the benefit of all sentient beings, for example, then I think it becomes a healthy desire; if it's to be the best meditator ever and reach enlightenment, then it would seem to be a craving, which I equate with greed. I'm sure it's not so simple, but I find that writing about all of this turns out to be more difficult for me than having the "on the ground" verbal discussion with a group! I also appreciated Thay's explanation that the first of a list may stand for the entire list; thus our simplistic understanding that suffering is caused by craving (grasping) while underestimating the other ways we cause ourselves to suffer. Though, the goddess knows, I am fully aware of them experientially!
Vicki: I find that desire for my own happiness helps me to quiet anger during meditation since I find feeling anger unpleasant most of the time (with self-righteous indignation an exception). To quiet craving for pleasant thoughts, I have occasionally been blessed with twinges of bodhichitta, which seems to come from the wisdom of Dharma talks and study. This wisdom comes not from me; it only tangentially involves intellect, just enough to comprehend the Dharma talk or scripture on a surface level. So, this pattern leads me to believe that ignorance of interdependence, or what That calls inter-being, plays a role in causing self-grasping and grasping at pleasant experiences, and thus suffering. Craving and ignorance seem related like a chicken and an egg; perhaps they rise up in dependence on each other, making a mockery of inter-being since craving and ignorance involve fleeing from being who, what, where, and how we are into harmful idealized self-images.
Thay, I mean, not That. Forgive my ignorance of autocorrect, and the software's ignorance of Thay!
Jon, you bring up what I think is the key difference...it's not the desire, it's the clinging to it, or as my teacher says making it into an identity. Then 'I' becomes the center of activity, the separate phenomena that needs to be protected & is threatened by darn near everything. There is this 'I' that needs something...as opposed to the aspiration to help others, as Vicki brings up.I have found motivation to be a tricky thing. I think a lot of people are hiding behind good motivation, trying to silence the inner judge/parent/demons by being GOOD. Myself included...it was a revelation just how unpleasant it was to not be the one to jump up & do whenever a volunteer was asked for. Recently I've been more directly working w/that inner sense of inadequacy, failure, vulnerability. I see how much of what I do is to avoid being reprimanded, ostracized, ridiculed, shunned. How much I want to be respected, liked, included, etc.
It's a fool's game in many ways...my partner & I had a set-to the other day, one of those pointless arguments that basically comes down to nothing but the grumpies. And I realized...when you're dealing with another human being there's no manual, there's no way to always get it right, stay safe. There are simply too many variables.
So then what? If I can't get it right, if the ideal of human perfectibility is not that, then what?
I went to see Pema Chodron give a talk once, to a huge crowd, thousands. The computer system had a melt-down, folks couldn't get their tickets, the wait was over an hour long while the staff tried to sort it out, get folks their tickets, get the computer fixed, tempers spiking...you can imagine. Finally, after most of the audience were seated, Pema began her talk...giggling! (And she has the most delightful giggle) And after acknowledging that the evening had been quite a trial for many, she laughed & pointed out that we think such foul-ups are aberrations, that things shouldn't be that way, & it's a mistake. And that's our biggest mistake, thinking that things should run smoothly, pleasantly, easily. That we'll get it right someday. And she threw back her head & laughed! And said, no, tonight was the normal, it's how it is. The reality is chaos is part & parcel of the whole.
Does enlightenment include losing it?
I think the first 17 pages is a doable amount for me.