The Case of Charles Dexter Ward - Chapter 1 & 2

[Scott]

section for starting discussion on chapter 1 & 2:
I. A Result and a Prologue
II. An Antecedent and a Horror

[Scott]

Started the book. Wondering if HP Lovecraft fashioned Charles Dexter Ward after himself when he was so curious or got sidetracked into antiquarian research and colonial history. It seems almost a parallel. Yet at the same time Lovecraft was said to believe this book was a "cumbrous, creaking bit of self-conscious antiquarianism"
It just another one of the contradictions of HP Lovecraft himself and his interests. He is but he is not, always going back and forth.

[Henrik]

HPL didn't try to get Charles Dexter Ward published, and in fact was dissatisfied with the story, yes.

I myself like the story (it was one of my first encounters with HPL), but can to a point see why he didn't like it. It is rather heavy on self-conscious antiquarianism, and many I know have read it and found it extremely boring for exactly that reason.

SPOILER: Personally I find the few remarks of "cosmicism" thrown in here and there (later in the story) oddly placed in a story like this, and wouldn't be surprised if that's another reason he didn't like it very much. If there are no further reasons to support this in the story, they seem misplaced, IMO.

I don't find his opinion of this story a contradiction, though. Why do you think so, Scott?

[Scott]

I think i at first was believing that he was dissatisfied by the story due to the heavy antiquarianism etc.. but yet I found a contradiction to that in my footnotes as it states that after he wrote this book he had said "And now, at thirty-seven, I am gradually headed for pure antiquarianism and architecture, and away from literature altogether!"

Unless he was poking fun at himself.

[Scott]

How much knowledge of colonial era literature did Lovecraft have? He quotes from Cotton Mather's Magnalia Christi Americana. Is his knowledge of Mather's work extensive?

Does anyone have a list or an idea of what he owned in his collection ?

[Henrik]

Scott, as for what books he owned, a lot of useful information can be found in LOVECRAFT'S LIBRARY by S. T. Joshi. Here's a link:

http://hippocampuspress.com/lovecraft/lovecrafts_library.html

[Henrik]

Scott, as for what books he owned, a lot of useful information can be found in LOVECRAFT'S LIBRARY by S. T. Joshi. Here's a link:

Hippocampus Press

[Scott]

Henrik wrote: "Scott, as for what books he owned, a lot of useful information can be found in LOVECRAFT'S LIBRARY by S. T. Joshi. Here's a link:

http://hippocampuspress.com/lovecraft...
"

Thanks for the link!

[Michael]

I've started the book (again) myself, and what strikes me is Lovecraft's highly unorthodox approach to the novel as a style of writing. He begins, essentially, by telegraphing the ending, which he often did in his stories (I don't think of that as a spoiler, since I'm just referencing what HPL says himself in the first pages). The fun of reading one of the stories that way was to find out just how we get from a pleasant young antiquarian to a curious residue of blue dust in a lunatic asylum in x number of pages. In _The Case of CDW_, though, you are less likely to read it in a single sitting, and may well have forgotten the details of that opening suggestion. As I recall, it took me several readings before I was really able to tie the entire storyline together and really figure out what was going on (this may reflect my own dullness or immaturity at the time!).

I don't find the antiquarianism especially distracting, although I had wondered whether some of it was meant as "padding" to stretch out the story to (close to) novel-length. While it does detract from the action, for me part of the joy of reading HPL is glorying in the description and imagery he provides. I also quite enjoy his efforts to track an ancient evil over the course of several hundred years. His insights into genealogical research before the internet may be amusing to a younger generation as well. It seems clear enough that at least the walks taken by the younger Ward are meant to parallel HPL's own ramblings about Providence.

In regard to Cotten Mather, HPL quotes him in a letter to Willis Conover (in the book _Lovecraft at Last_, which I have added to the suggested reading for this group). From the context, the implication is that he was fairly exhaustively familiar with Mather's writings.

[Scott]

Finished up the 2nd chapter. I was reading it slow along with the footnotes in the back. I am curious as to the middle age books that are included for Currwens library... Hermes Trismegistus, Turba Philosphorum, Liber Investigationis, Arephius Key of Wisdom, etc. Are these books that Lovecraft had read or was simply referencing for the story line? How did he come across them to include. What was his interest in alchemy.
The shop Sign of the Unicorn and Mortar.. in my footnotes it mentions that this was a real place. Doctor Jabez's Apothecary Shop. I guess i am curious about this and how lovecraft came to know of this.

It is curious how in these chapters especially the first how Lovecraft details almost in outline points the momentum of the story to come and what will be revealed. Almost as if it is a tidbit to get us motivated to find out what did happen. It is a way to lead into the story. The story going from the future to the past. The past definitely seems to be the unknown for lovecraft here and in other stories, almost much more then the future. As if the past was just as pliable and possible.

One note in my footnotes mentions his childhood memory at 2 1/2 'What has haunted my dreams for nearly forty years is a strange sense of adventurous epectancy connected with landscape and architecture and sky-effects. I can see myself as a child of 2 1/2 on the railway bridge at Auburndale, Mass., looking across and downward at the business part of the town, and feeling the imminence of some wonder which I could neither describe nor fully conceive.'
Even as a child that young he was awed and almost overwelmed by the haunting presence from bygone days and atmosphere at most.. or something more.

The character and quest to discover who he is reminds me of my own interst in Miss Patterson, Austin Osman Spare's professed teacher of primal witchcraft knowledge. Whether she was real or not has never trully been seen, but she was a person which feels alot like something Curwen embodies. Something ancient and holding the keys to ancient knowledge and power.

[Scott]

Was it common information to know the walks of Edgar Allen Poe. It seems Lovecraft knew quite well where his favorite haunts or walks were. As related to the this story, he puts in a few aspects from his own memory of thos walks or places.

[Michael]

Hi Scott,

Again, I refer you to "Lovecraft at Last" which documents his letters to the young Willis Conover. In it, he discusses his erudition in (and disdain for) occult practices including alchemy at some length. Lovecraft had read several of the recognized "classics" in the field, and regarded them as trite. When using them for his stories, he said liked to dress them up as if they were all they were reputed to be, or to make up even more powerful texts, like the _Necronomicon_.

I don't know how HPL came to know of the Sign of the Horn and Unicorn or the specifics of Poe's walks, but I daresay that he, like Ward, was an obsessive antiquarian, and had dug the information out of the local library, historical society, or perhaps Poe's published diaries or letters. At any rate, while the information was (and probably still is) out there to be found, I doubt if it was ever "common."

[Scott]

Michael wrote: "Hi Scott,

Again, I refer you to "Lovecraft at Last" which documents his letters to the young Willis Conover. In it, he discusses his erudition in (and disdain for) occult practices including alche..."

I just found a fairly good link on that subject regarding what Lovecraft borrowed used to write out this particular story. It is curious the disdain Lovecraft had for anything occult related, though I would imagine if he had lived through the period of relativity and quantum phsyics if he would have become more comprehensive to the idea that magick could be weaved with science rather then religion which he deemed to despise.

[Scott]

Henrik wrote: "HPL didn't try to get Charles Dexter Ward published, and in fact was dissatisfied with the story, yes.

I myself like the story (it was one of my first encounters with HPL), but can to a point see ..."

I would assume that his "cosmicism" ideas blossomed after his writing this story? Already you can see some of his ideas that entities having powers possibly greater then humans would not necessarily be sympathetic to humans in particular. But then Lovecraft seemed to have a great fear of the unknown?

[Henrik]

Scott wrote: "It is curious the disdain Lovecraft had for anything occult related, though I would imagine if he had lived through the period of relativity and quantum phsyics if he would have become more comprehensive to the idea that magick could be weaved with science ..."

Scott, HPL did know about relativity and quantum physics. From his letters it looks like he never really "got" quantum physics, but after the initial shock he accepted relativity and its importance for modern science. He had a rather conservative acceptance of the theory, but an acceptance nonetheless.

In the story "Dreams in the Witch-House" he experiments with blending the occult/witchcraft with modern science (rather than with religion). It has its tremendous moments, IMO, but doesn't succeed overall.

Why do you think it's odd that HPL despised Occultism? He was a stout materialist and to a large extent what one would call a "positivist" when it came to science.

[Scott]

I had recently picked up a biography of Lovecraft
Cant wait to read a bit on this.

I think its more odd that he despised (if he did) occultism then his despising religion. The fact that he lumped them in the same boat seems that he did not research the occult that deeply, it seems. But since he was writing and researching in the early part of the 20th, I guess it makes sense he would have despised it for possible links with religion or also superstition not linked with science. later of course in 70s and then into the 80s occultism started with fervor to link science with magick (as well as psychology with magick) in the areas where science has and is still entering territory that cannot be handled by more conservative scientists. (ie. see Peter Carroll on http://www.specularium.org/ ) For Lovecraft though he seems to have seen the occult as being silly in the idea that the gained from these "alien" entities or the powers they themselves had were "natural" to them rather then being "supernatural" therefore not occult. But this is just semantics that Lovecraft played with to push everything into a science approach. In reality he could if he delved far enough seen the materialist approach and "postiivist" within the occult and linked it with scientific quest and endeavor.

I will re-read Dreams in the Witch-House. I love that book when i read it sometime back. What book was the most successful for Lovecraft in his own viewpoint?

[Henrik]

Scott,

That is a very fine biography. It was reprinted (slightly updated) in 2004. In 2010 the final, complete version will be published by Hippocampus Press--in two editions. It's a bumper already, but apparently S. T. Joshi had to leave out lots of stuff...

As for the "semantics," as you put it, well, I disagree and think HPL had it just right. Science and occultism don't match (except as fun in fictive stories). And the reason there is a "natural" explanation for the alien/gods' powers is not to play semantics but because his point is that they are "natural"--albeit so foreign to us pitiful human creatures that we think it is either magic, the occult or, at best, we just don't understand it at all.

That said, we cannot dismiss that HPL played with the occult in his stories and that he seems to have had quite some knowledge--even if he didn't approve of it in "real life", he sure had fun with it, in various guises, in his fiction. The Case of Charles Dexter Ward a clear example of this.

[Henrik]

Oh, I forgot... One of the stories HPL always thought highly of in his own oeuvre was "The Colour Out of Space." On the whole, though, he wasn't too keen on his own accomplishments. He was a very hard judge--especially of his own work.

[Scott]

Henrik wrote: "Scott,

That is a very fine biography. It was reprinted (slightly updated) in 2004. In 2010 the final, complete version will be published by Hippocampus Press--in two editions. It's a bumper alread..."

I will have to check on what version mine is. It might be a previous pressing to 2004, not sure.

As far as science and magick not matching in recent years, I can only say do a bit more research. Real life is not all together what you think it is. But then i have an occult background so it is coming from that experience and perspective of working.

Lovecraft for sure was a realist who had a big imagination. Though what was coming through in his dreams is debated. It maybe that he had to have some solid ground to stand on with his views in order to feel he was still sane and not gone the way of his parents.

[Henrik]

Scott, I have done research but have - it would seem - reached other conclusions than you. And as for "reality not what it seems," well, that depends on what one thinks it seems, right? I never said I was a pure positivist like HPL;-) Sorry the brevity but am off to a busy day now. Will return:-)

[Henrik]

Scott, sorry if my last post sounded terse (and I quote you wrong). I was writing it in haste on my cell phone. I'll return in a day or two...

[Scott]

Henrik wrote: "Scott, sorry if my last post sounded terse (and I quote you wrong). I was writing it in haste on my cell phone. I'll return in a day or two..."

No problem, not a big deal. I have to state though that even if i rattle of in that way ;-) i do not hold my belief as ultimately true... i can see Lovecrafts points as well, and yours.

It really matters little to me. But for myself, i am currently finding it more fun and interesting to take my current viewpoint.

One view i like to entertain is that Lovecraft seems to have been an rather unwilling but receptive vehicle for something beyond his own comprehension and channeling through his dreams and fears. However he interpreted that through his fiction work or whatever was how he saw it or chose to treat it. But the wave of inspiration, crazy research, dedication, etc.. that the mythos acquired over time is quite interesting to look at regardless of Lovecrafts own view.

I think Lovecrafts view is quite in parallel to Houdini's and they were in some correspondence, no? I mean Houdini was known to try to debunk supernatural or occult charades if I am correct.

Either way, so far in what I have learned it seems Lovecraft did not delve to deep into his research or discuss with prominent magicians of the time to gain a better story dialogue. Maybe because he thought it was trite as you put it, so it was not worth the effort. But regardless of my opinion on that, i think he came out with some stupendous and attractive stories which contained occult and alien influence. It awakens the imagination quite heavily.

[Scott]

Henrik wrote: "Scott, sorry if my last post sounded terse (and I quote you wrong). I was writing it in haste on my cell phone. I'll return in a day or two..."

But for fun.. you should check out Peter Carroll on http://www.specularium.org/ or http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/... .. he just released a new book.. which i havent obtained yet called The Apophenion a chaos magick paradigm
"This book contains something to offend everyone; enough science to upset the magicians, enough magic to upset the scientists, and enough blasphemy to upset most trancendentalists."

[Michael]

Scott,

I would disagree. From what I have read, HPL's knowledge of the occult of his day and the middle ages was remarkably erudite. Better, in fact, than most of the practicing occultists I have met. The fact of the matter is that during the period of his life, most "occult wisdom" was trite. It is today, if you look in most occult stores, as well. For every Peter Carroll there are thousands of Dion Fortunes, and even Carroll's work has been repeatedly twisted by thousands of losers into a justification for their own dead end lifestyles.

I think you should give HPL credit for having thoroughly investigated the subject, and having drawn a different conclusion from yours. What is wrong with that? I sincerely believe that if he had drawn a different conclusion than he did, his fiction would have suffered from "True Believers' Syndrome," just as Derleth's did.

[Scott]

Michael wrote: "Scott,

I would disagree. From what I have read, HPL's knowledge of the occult of his day and the middle ages was remarkably erudite. Better, in fact, than most of the practicing occultists I have ..."

I will think on that. But the idea that occult wisdom during his day was trite i am not sure. I mean this was the times of Crowley and Spare, etc.. I am not sure if his investigations were deep enough, but maybe like you say. I will leave it at that and dig deeper to see. I do not think i have enough info on Lovecraft yet to gain the greater picture.

Is there opposing views on Lovecraft within those who write or knew him?

Yes, there is a thousand losers and dead end sheep for sure. Nothing can be said of that. To each his own.

I see what you mean regarding his work suffering from True Believers Syndrome if he had not drawn the conclusion he did and gone on to formulate his own understanding of things. I think his belief in life which eventually permeated his stories seems to be a sort of medecine to counter blind faith and religious fanatics.

Though on the side I must say fanatics can be fun, and we are talking about fun here, right?

[Ray]

Sorry I missed this, but October saw me settle on & move into my first house. I'm STILL unpacking, haven't gotten around to my book collection yet, so haven't had a chance to crack open the Lovecraft. Hopefully I'll catch up with November's reading selection.

[Scott]

You can add or join this discussion at any time as i dont believe it will be deleted for awhile.