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Just finished Echo in the Bone (spoilers included)
message 401:
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Ladyhawk
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Dec 13, 2010 08:38PM
Completely agree! When I was newly obsessed I scoured the book boards reading spoilers and came across where Jamie had been with Geneva... McNabb. I was devastated!! Had to ask, "WTH?" How many "other" women has Jamie been with!? I was a furious, jealous mess!
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Yep..looks like he and Claire have both been with 4 others each...Jamie with 1. Claire, 2. Mary McNabb, 3. Geneva. 4. Leghair. And Claire 1. Frank. 2. Jamie. 3. Louis (the king)and Lord John....I didn't count the rape cuz she didn't consent to that! I keep wondering if there is going to be another bombshell dropped on Claire by Jamie...but I think he had his chance to tell her when he broke down and told her about Mary McNabb after he'd been acused of getting Malva pregnant.
I know these are the women we "accept" as having been with Jamie. But I hate to admit I think there may be more. I think it’s in Voyager. He was doing some confessing to Claire after they had reunited. Basically saying he took a woman occasionally when he couldn't refrain any longer... Anyone else get that? Any comments from DG regarding it?
Yes! I remember that too Ladyhawk! There may be more surprise "little Frasers" out there. I hope not but there may be. But even if there aren't, I don't think after having Claire introduce him to sex (I believe he really was a virgin)that Jamie could keep it in his pants...no matter how hard he tried...pun intended! :) I don't see a man like Jamie who had it thrown at him from every angle being able to say no...I just don't see it. I guess that is why I was so appalled and angry that he let those sluts bite him on the thighs and neck and expects us to believe he didn't do it with them???? Sorry Jamie, Claire might believe you but I don't. I don't believe he had sex with Malva though..I really don't...I think he was too distraught about Claire being sick and thinking she was going to die. I think when he had a room at Madame Jeanne's that he was "occasionally" sampling the wares. Maybe on one of the boards DG has addressed this....I'll look around and see what I can find...since she wrote these books...she will know :)
I wonder how much time had passed between leaving Loaghaire for Edinburgh and when Claire reunited with him. There may have not been too much time what with setting up his printing business etc for him to get desparate enough to sample the wares. I'm sure Claire would have discussed the dangers of sleeping with prostitutes, especially whilst in France and I seem to vaguely remember something in one of their discussions about his longer than average virginity status about him being quite picky. Realistically Sharonh I would have to agree with you, it would take an extremely strong male to withstand that sort of temptation but lets face it if anyone has that sort of strength it is our Jamie.
Yeah,you are probably right Coralie. It just tears me up to think of Jamie with ANYONE but Claire....but I have been surprized/disappointed in him a couple of times. Never ever would have thought he'd marry Leghair and couldn't believe he gave in to Mary McNab...but he IS a man and not many men would say no to some free lovin'. AND...I was disappointed in Claire for going back to Frank and thinking she loved him after loving Jamie....no way could I have done it. But I guess she was so traumatized by having to leave him that she took solace in Frank when he wouldn't leave her and Bree. And, I was definitely disappointed with her for rolling in the hay with LJG and for even giving him a hand job.
I too hope there aren't any other "litte Frasers" running around out there that we don't know about!LOLI don't think he messed around while still married to L. either. I think it would have been after Helwater and before he married L.
Let us know if you do find any comments from DG.
I know a huge part of his character would include not leaving any get behind for someone else to raise, as his father said remember. But like you said, I'm sure women were offering all the time and a man can only go without for so long.
I'm pretty sure he was only with Mary, Geneva and Loaghaire - I'm sure we would have read by now if he was with others, he would have told Claire. I'm also certain I've read in a few places that he was only with those 3 and no one else.
There were others... See 416 and 417 again...
I don't think there were others either. I don't have my books with me so I can't reference those pages but I agree that when he told Claire about Mary he would have told her about the others.
Paged 416 and 417 of what book Ladyhawk? I checked Voyager and those pages weren't about Jamie and other women at all.
Uh oh, what did I get myself into. Ok, postings 416 and 417 sillies. I will look for the passage and get back to you. He does say to Claire something about "others" when he could not hold out anymore. It was a very quick mention and then nothing more about it! I'll look for it!!
I dont' think it's impossible. I mean, jeez. Claire was gone for 20 years! He never expected her to come back. There is no way he was going to be celibate for the rest of his life.I absolutely do not think, for one moment, that Jamie has had sex with another woman during the years that they were together. Not before she had Bree and not when she came back to him. Even the whores who bit on him, he would not have had sex with them.
I agree Wendy. I have never believed Jamie was ever unfaithful! Even that night out with the bonnie Prince, I don't think he participated. Thus the "molten gold" quote on the fav quotes thread! Jamie playing babysitter to the prince really tried claire's trust and patience.That particular night was a test of both their devotion. Jamie not engaging in the lusty show when he easily could have and claire believing him when he said he didn't even though many signs said he may have.
I guess my problem with that scene is that no modern women (Claire is a 20th century woman lets remember) I know of would have believed him nor would she have let him off as easily as Claire did. Deep down I don't think he had sex with any of the whores...but it just makes me so mad that he comes home with bite marks all over him and expects a medal for remaining "chaste". I'd have beat the "@%^&$ outta him.
with bite marks all over him and expects a medal for remaining "chaste".Oh ya!! I forgot that tidbit! I think claire kept the bigger picture in mind. Their goal to thwart BPC.
Yeah, this is where I could have beat her *&^% too! LOL. She should have made him grovel and suffer but she gave right in! You think Jamie would have if the shoe were on the other foot????? Jamie cannot stand the thought of Claire with another man. He said he would kill the other man. I still love him though and I guess I can understand why she forgave him...she cannot bear to be without him!!!! And he knows it...feels the same about her!!!
Jamie caught Claire wearing Philip Wylie's facial patch from being kissed. He didn't flip out on her. He trusted that it wasn't something she wanted and he handled Wylie. That's what I love about them, even when things look very bad, they trust each other.
There's a lot of difference in a facial patch on someone's face and bite marks near a penis, scratch marks up and down thighs and love bites on the neck! If Claire had those on her body Jamie would have killed someone for sure.
I'm not saying he wouldn't kill the guy, he absolutely would. I'm saying that if Claire said nothing happened he would trust her... he'd trust her before going out to teach the man to keep his hands to himself.
Sigh...wouldn't it be wonderful to REALLY be able to trust someone that much? Maybe thats where my perception of that scene is coming from...I am not sure I would trust my husband in that situation. At the age he is now...yes; but when he was younger????Nope!
I want to think I would trust my husband. Now, it may be different if I were confronted with it, lmao.
I'm sure were not going to get anymore bombshells in the sexual encounters department for past conquests from Jamie. I haven't read book 8 yet but I love to spoil myself and know the major facts concerning the book. I was shocked as everyone else was concerning Lord John and Claire though. Does anyone else maybe think Lord John might be bisexual? I mean he might just prefer men over women but he has no qualms over taking a woman to bed? I believe he just hasn't found a woman to love. It's something I've been wondering for a time now and I was wondering everyone's opinion concerning this theory.
I dont think he's bisexual. He says he's had women before but that he's not attracted to them like that.I think that he found an attraction to Claire as an individual, without giving her gender a thought. It's not unheard of that a gay man might find one woman that he becomes attracted to after getting to know her, or that one would have had sex with a woman before. I saw Lord John's attraction for Claire as an intellectual attraction, not a physical one.
But also, DG has said that JLG is definitely gay.
You know the old saying "When you have sex with someone...you are having sex with everyone THEY have had sex with". Of course that is a statement/warning about sexually transmitted diseases, but in the LJ/C case...I think he wanted to have sex with her because she was the closest thing to Jamie and he wanted to feel close to Jamie when he thought he had died or drowned.While we are on this.....I still think it will be a HUGE factor to Jamie in Book 8.... he will have a hard time getting past this IMHO.
I think he will in terms of his relationship with LJG, but I think he'll forgive Claire relatively fast.
I'm wondering if Jamie will have had a bigger issue about John and Claire if John wasn't a homosexual? I ask this because of the question posed by Jamie to John. Wasn't it something around the lines of "She knows your preference and she let you?"
I'm also wondering if Jamie feels a sense of irony about the situation.
Poor Jamie, More money to pay to get a divorce! LOL
I do wonder if they will have to pay to get divorced like Jamie had to pay Laoghaire.
Jamie won't divorce Caire...first of all he loves her dearly and would never give her up willingly....secondly he is Catholic through and through and I don't think he believes in divorce. He was not legally married to Leghair therefore no divorce. He will forgive Claire but I'm not sure it will happen quickly.
No I meant John and Claire's divorce, Jamie gathering funds to pay for it.
I wonder - is the marriage between John and Claire even legally binding seeing as Jamie is still alive. Surely it could be annulled easily enough even though it was consumated. Anyone out there no the legal system of the 18th century? I'm sure Lindsay that under the circumstances Lord John would happily foot the bill for any divorce etc to try and smooth things over with Jamie. Mind you it would take a lot more than that to redeem himself in Jamie's eyes, I think. Oh Lord what a mess. Would have been a lot simpler if they had found some other way to comfort themselves.
Aren't they in Philadelphia or somewhere in the USA? I'm not sure what the laws were at that time, but there was no divorce when Claire came back...and I'm thinking the only reason there was an attorney involved was because Leghair wanted to get what she could out of him and she also (which wasn't brought up but just a tiny bit) wanted him to agree not to prosecute her for shooting him. If anything there will be an annullment but Lord John isn't Catholic so there shouldn't be a problem....in fact I am thinking at the time in the USA Catholicism was still a tiny minority of the population except in Louisiana which was (grasping here)called The Louisiana Purchase? I'm embarrassed I don't know for certain since I live in Arkansas which at that time was a part of Louisiana! There will probably be an annullment of some sort.Oh and my grandkids think I was living way back then so I should know! I cant wait to see what happens!
The marriage is not legally binding as Jamie is still alive, however laws then could have been interesting. I also agree with the analogy that LJG was interested in Claire as a person. I think the same things that attracted him to men, attracted him to her...her intelligence and decisiveness and their mutual love/grief of Jamie. I think (as well as the booze and laundenum Claire took) caused the lapse. Jamie lives in an old culture and usually can rise above it...the male pride thing is still a huge hurdle for him, but he and Claire have such a history I have faith he'll overcome.
I just finished Echo and ughhhhh I feel like I'm hanging off a cliff by one arm.....so hating having to wait for books to come out however I was totally caught up in the historical aspects of this book. Haha about Benjamin Franklin .... not someone I wanted to picture naked and walking around but hahahaha. I loved that a lot of the hidden secrets were brought out in the open in this one and that only leaves so many open avenues for the next installment of this series .... I'll just have to be patient however not one of my strong suits. :/ grumble grumble we'll just have to see .... almost tempted to read the Lord John series that she has but my favorite story line is with the Frasers so we'll see. I'm still debating it while I wait for the next one.
I agree with someone who posted that the ending did seem rushed ... the whole account of Arch Bug and Ian and Rachel ... not to mention rushing Roger and Buck back through the stones with the cliffhanger of Jem chugging towards a possible crossover point. I love that the travel 'powers' seem to be stronger in Jem and Mandy ... but then they're genetically travelers on both sides so it's only right that they would be more in tune and connected. Love it!
So while I find that I'm totally loving this series whatever the outcomes...I have to agree with a lot of the posts and here were my hangups with this story:
Ian and Rachel ... seemed like Rachel was thrown in there just to give Arch Bug someone to avenge himself on when really ... I get that Ian had finally made 'peace' with Emily and his losing his daughter and such and MAYBE that would enable him to be open to a relationship now ... but it was too neat and tidy to have them suddenly out of nowhere fallin head over heels in love without more how did we get there...
LJG and Claire ... I see the leading up to them sleeping together and however for me this was a stretch as well although I can see where in those drunken moments of despair they were each other's only connection to Jamie.. Claire had lost Briana and Roger and Jem and Mandy, and really LJ was probably the closest to a 'best friend' that Jamie has in the whole tale because of the intimatacy they've shared regarding Willie ...however..them sleeping together? and it wasn't lost on me that neither of them were logically with the other in those moments they were with Jamie which made the first time acceptable and plausible the second time ... not so much. (NOTE: I do agree with the posting above that this gave us a vindication on Jamie marrying Loaghaire soooo with that in mind ...yeah I guess I could buy it)
I did feel a disconnect between Jamie and Claire in this novel and maybe it was because of their loss of security with Briana and Roger and the Kids gone, losing their house, leaving the Ridge there's sooooo much that is lost and so I guess I can see why there's a bit of a withdrawal from Claire where once again she's having to do what she always does ... clean up the mess. I didn't get the animosity between her and Jenny ... I too thought they had taken care of that ... but grief makes us do weird things. It's like just when you can take a breath someone gets shot, stabbed, blown up, raped, murdered, amputated etc etc etc and there isn't a moment to breathe. Not to mention every freaking time they're on a boat heading somewhere the damned Brits want to seperate them. grrrr But I suppose that's what happened back then .. it was wartime after all.
I do have to admit that everyone does seem to know everyone else and the connections had me thinking about LOST lol and humming It's a Small World as they swirled in and out of the plots and story lines.
So Fergus is and heir, apparently? Tied into this Percy chap that from the story seemed to be a past lover of LJ's ??? Was Percy in previous books or was that just this one I can't seem to remember (Claire kept mentioning him but can't remember if it was because he was on her family tree or if it was from something in the past books) Never did get the whole secret spy meeting things ... and why this or that guy couldn't be trusted. Still trying to figure out if he's a good guy or a bad guy or wth he was? I get he's trying to manipulate Fergus into funding the war for the American side...but the dramatics were a bit confusing. I guess thinking on it now.. LJ would find Percy a bit sinister because LJ being a Brit and Percy being a possible traitor..i guess..anyway Will just have to see how that works out....
all in all Loved the book ... hate that I have to wait for the next one!
TOTALLY agree with Susan who wrote a ways up the comments that the funniest line in the book was when Jenny sees Willie leave the house after he's just torn it apart...I totally agree! I laughed thinking what couldn't have been more perfect comic timing and from the most perfect person to know the temper than Jenny! loved it!oh and that moment where Jamie asks Ian to be buried with his finger lol OMG I nearly lost it!! all I could think was ewwwwwwwww haha
Heather, Percy is a character introduced in one of the LJG books. Alot of the characters in the sections with LJG are from his books. I did enjoy reading them, but, then I like him. Many people don't like him and have a hard time with his books. They would be a way to help pass the time while waiting and answer some of your questions at the same time.
Mary G. wrote: "Heather, Percy is a character introduced in one of the LJG books. Alot of the characters in the sections with LJG are from his books. I did enjoy reading them, but, then I like him. Many people..."Mary- thanks! I haven't actually read those yet and I'm probably in the minority but I like LJG as well. I admire him as a character and I actually enjoy the friendship between he and Jamie. (him and Jamie geez need a grammer lesson and maybe spelling -er -ar everything looks misspelled but I digress) anyway .. I'll probably put them on my list of books to track down this year regardless of the cliffhangers I LOVE Gabaldon's work and anything I can get my hands on would be good to pass the time.
I think what I love most about the relationship between Jamie and LJG is that it shows that a true man (a real man) that is connected to his emotional side doesn't have to be a homophobe to show he's a man. Even after the tragedy of what Randall put Jamie through it didn't make him a homophobe. I appreciate that truth in that aspect of Jamie's personality and the character of LJG in that he could've taken Jamie up on the offer but like we find out in Echo ... he's glad he didn't because he would've ruined any chance of the depth of friendship that exists now between them and he would've broken that level of trust that inevitably is a kind of love between the two men. But maybe it's just me. lol I'm a sucker for the romantic, and I find their relationship awesome in that dynamic, which makes me appreciate LJG as others don't. So thanks for that heads up ... it makes me want to read his story where I was hesitant because I LOVE Jamie and Claire's story so much ... however knowing the backstories of how they all connect is just like sprinkles on top of the ice cream treat that is the whole epic tale!!
so thanks again!!! ugh now I have more on my TBR list haha!
I too love LJG! But Jamie looks down his nose and is mortified by what he calls "perversion" though he does come to respect LJG and takes him as just about his best friend. Plus he told CLaire if LJG had taken him up on the offer of his body he would have killed him....and then he'd have known LJG's true nature.
I don't know. I just think that Jamie (being as level headed as he is) will see the circumstances and while he'll be hurt, I just don't think he's going to be as unforgiving as others think. Even though he'll hate it, he's too pragmatic to not recognize that they got married to save Claire and Marsali and that the sex came out of drunken grief.
I think he'll never look at LJG the same way again, but he will also find a way to move past it. Especially with everything going on with Willie and Jenny and the fact that Claire looks like a traitor. There's too much going on for him to try to hold a long term grudge. That's just not like Jamie.
But I guess we'll see. It's going to be good either way.
Tracy wrote: "I just finished reading Echo in the Bone. No sleep for days!! Anyone know when Book 8 comes out? LOL! "Hi, I'm new to this group. I don't know when book 8 comes out, but I can't wait. I was almost late on my deadline because of Echo in the Bone. Diana Gabaldon is amazing.
Hi everyone, I'm new to this group. Even though I'm an avid reader and I'm a writer, I had never heard of Diana Gabaldon until a year ago. Oh my gosh! I wish I'd known about her earlier. I love the Outlander series so much, I've them all, some when I should have been writing :) I've never had ANY books stick in my head the way hers do. I can't stop thinking about them. The characters and her plots are brilliantly written.
I LOVED the LJ and Caire marriage !I think what most people have forgotten is the when they FIRST had sex they were BOTH stinking drunk !
reread it...you'll see....
The second time LJ came onto claire ( both sober )is wen she was feeling like she was betraying Jamie by being intimate with another man...( they didn't have sex BTW....she just had some kind of sexual encounter with LJ )
I thought it was perfect that they found a morsel of comfort with each other. Claire and LJ were Jamie's closest peeps !
I absolutely LOVED echo !
Anita wrote: "Hi everyone, I'm new to this group. Even though I'm an avid reader and I'm a writer, I had never heard of Diana Gabaldon until a year ago. Oh my gosh! I wish I'd known about her earlier. I love the..."Welcome to our (J&C) crazy world Anita.
ok, so i'm still sorta suck on Ian/Emily and the little boy...and I wondered, we knew she had a miscarriage when he left, but maybe it was twins and only one...or something like that (I don't know if that is possible)...but i think there is more to the story that is going to come out later
Delicious Dee Challenge Addict wrote: "ok, so i'm still sorta suck on Ian/Emily and the little boy...and I wondered, we knew she had a miscarriage when he left, but maybe it was twins and only one...or something like that (I don't know ..."As he told the story, after the miscarriage they tried for several more months to have a child, but all the joy had gone out of it, and Emily had started to show interest in the another man. One day Emily's grandmother (I forget her name) comes to Ian and tells him that it would be better for everyone if he left, so he does. But apparently Emily was pregnant when he left.
she had several miscarriages, but I thought he left the night she suffered one...i remember part of where he woke up and she was bleeding...and he went to get help...and the old woman asked him to leave in the end...but i'll have to go back and look at ABOSAA again
Delicious Dee Challenge Addict wrote: "she had several miscarriages, but I thought he left the night she suffered one...i remember part of where he woke up and she was bleeding...and he went to get help...and the old woman asked him to ..."He left and did some soul searching, but went back. They tried for several months afterward before he left for good.
Delicious Dee Challenge Addict wrote: "ok, so i'm still sorta suck on Ian/Emily and the little boy...and I wondered, we knew she had a miscarriage when he left, but maybe it was twins and only one...or something like that (I don't know ..."I found that interesting too. I wasn't sure if the little boy is actually Ian's. I think he is.
I originally thought Swiftest of Lizards was Ian's,also; but, after reading it again and listening to it, I've changed my mind. The boy told Ian he was the "son of his spirit", didn't he? And when at Lallybrock, the elder Ian says something about wee Ian telling Jenny about his son, that she will be glad of it however it came about{or something like that}. Which made me rethink me decision.
