Outlander Series discussion
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Just finished Echo in the Bone (spoilers included)
Alexis wrote: "Renee wrote: "Oh, I should mention that I hate this book. I can talk relevant bits and pieces, but I really hate it. I've tried to start Outlander again and I'm stalled. I have to get this book out..."Yeah, that would help. I don't know if any one here read the Twilight series, but i felt exactly how you feel right now about the fourth book. It took me so long to get over it, and even longer to like the book at all. So don't worry, just come back to it, maybe you'll like it after we all find out what happens in the next book.
Hahaha, it's not my expectations that make me feel this way. I feel betrayed as a reader. Yes, a writer can do what they want. BUT you don't play with your readers. You don't give them half a book. This is barely half a Jamie and Claire book. You don't bait them to read your other series of books by devoting over half the book to that other character. I resent that deeply. Then rush through the writing about the actual people read this series for. I resent that.You do not leave as many dangly bits as were left in this book concerning the people the reader actually cares about. Jem in the tunnel? Roger gone off to the past? Bree nabbed by Cameron? Then it ends? I resent that. If Diana just gives us a great book she's already got the readership for the next book. I don't like being strung along, and believe me, writer's do have control of these things.
Giving me implausable character deviations? Lord John having sex with Claire?! That ain't happening, Sally, I don't care how attractive Claire is or how grief stricken they were or how drunk.
I feel as though I've been slapped in the face as a reader. And no author should ever do that to their audience. No, I don't need a 'breather'. I'm not TOO wrapped up in Jamie and Claire. I refuse to take the blame for this and I have read too many reviews to think that I'm some obsessed fan of the series taking my expectations to impossible heights. No. There are many people who agree with me.
I'm just a ticked off reader.
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Renee wrote: "Hahaha, it's not my expectations that make me feel this way. I feel betrayed as a reader. Yes, a writer can do what they want. BUT you don't play with your readers. You don't give them half a book...."okay. Nuff' said. You win! BTW, I have not met another person who has read The Crimson Petal and the White. Love me some Sugar! Never even thought to see if there is a blog. That ending was THE worse! That should have been against the law!
You read it too? It took me two days and I DID NOT see that ending(?) coming! My cousin gave it to me because she was done with it. When I said, "Thanks alot! That thing had no ending!". She said, "Oh, I know!", in a disapproving way. Well, thanks alot. :)I secretly think that that crazy little girl is going to kill Sugar. Wherever they end up, whenever...
Do you think that the message was that publishers are pimps, readers are johns and writers are prostitutes? I don't know what other message Faber was trying to slap me with other than that.
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I've been considering purchasing this book, but haven't read the others in the series yet. Will this book stand on its own, or do I need to follow the story line in sequence?
Renee, once again I am with you completely! You've laid out my feelings exactly! I too am a ticked off reader! I am going to start the whole series over though.
Ss wrote: "I've been considering purchasing this book, but haven't read the others in the series yet. Will this book stand on its own, or do I need to follow the story line in sequence?"
This is one of those series where you really need to start at the beginning. So pick up a copy of Outlander and join the ranks of Jamie & Claire fans!
Jennifer- Thank you!Yes, I've started Outlander again too. Jamie just edged poor L out to talk to Claire in the hall. And now I've got thoughts of that stupid French girl interrupting my reading pleasure. :(
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I know! I don't like that french girl and I don't even know her. I don't like Diana messing with Claire and Jamie's beginning.
Renee wrote: "Oh, I should mention that I hate this book. I can talk relevant bits and pieces, but I really hate it. I've tried to start Outlander again and I'm stalled. I have to get this book out of my head be..."Renee,
I have to be honest...I have yet to finish Echo and I am finding it really hard to get "into", maybe it's because I have read some of the spoilers.....I have not read the LJG books, so I'm a bit lost with some of the characters from that series....but I'm not loving it at all..sigh..I don't want to read about LJG and Claire together..ughh
Gam26- I know! Why mess with perfection? Leave Jamie and Claire the way they were. I don't want or need to know anything more about that time. Don't bring anymore girls in before Claire. We already know about the one. Just let them be.Cynthia-At least we're spared the description of the 'encounter'. I know what you're feeling. I was really looking forward to some new Jamie and Claire to read and found this book quite put downable instead. It does not pull you in like the other books.
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Renee wrote: "Gam26- I know! Why mess with perfection? Leave Jamie and Claire the way they were. I don't want or need to know anything more about that time. Don't bring anymore girls in before Claire. We already..."You nailed it! I guess I was expecting more Jamie and Claire.....I am not even halfway through the book and I find it very confusing, but that may be in part that I'm trying to read late at night and I go days without picking it up. It takes me a while to remember who is who and what is going on. Seems disconnected, but like I said it's probably me. I'm gonna give it my best shot and trudge on with it.
Wow...there are alot of people on here that didn't like Echo, huh? I guess I'm in the minority because I enjoyed it. Don't get me wrong, I was beyond frustrated with the ending and all the loose ties/cliffhangers she left us, but overall I enjoyed the book. I thought Tom Christie being alive was a nice little twist (didn't expect that one...neither did Claire. LOL!) I also liked getting to know Jamie's son better. And I'm glad Jamie and Loghaire finally had it out and got some closure. I hated Jamie always feeling bad for Loghaire (mainly cause I don't like her one bit and I dont trust her)but now I feel better knowing the reason why Jamie felt the way he did towards her and their relationship. I also enjoyed Ian's story throughout the book. So, minus the horrid ending, I liked the book and the storylines. The Jamie/Claire/LJG cliffhanger was so unfair....that is my main gripe about Echo.
I actually thought Young Ian's episode with Emily odd; there wasn't enough explanation of how the Indians had been proselytized; weren't they one of the fiercer tribes? And would Ian just walk away from his son? Wouldn't he want more of a realtionship?
Jessa wrote: "Wow...there are alot of people on here that didn't like Echo, huh? I guess I'm in the minority because I enjoyed it. Don't get me wrong, I was beyond frustrated with the ending and all the loose ..."Jessa, i agree with you, i liked the book overall, but of course i had some issues with it. But that's to be expected. I guess i almost appreciate it because DG is being faithful to her characters and how SHE feels about the story, and not simply adhereing to the demands and expectations of her readers, which i think totally ruins books.
If I thought Diana was being true to her characters I wouldn't hate this book half as much as I do. That's one of the problems. The characters are behaving out of character. --
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Renee wrote: "If I thought Diana was being true to her characters I wouldn't hate this book half as much as I do. That's one of the problems. The characters are behaving out of character. Well, we all have our own ideas about how the characters should act i guess. Of course i have BIG issues with how this book ended and other obvious things that happened, but i can't say i hated it or that i felt they acted out of character cause everyone has a few surprises and tricks up their sleeves.
As I had mentioned in a post above, I have not finished Echo yet, but I really enjoy reading everyones different opinions and views! The good, bad and the ugly! It's all still good and interesting!
ChristinaRae wrote: "I actually thought Young Ian's episode with Emily odd; there wasn't enough explanation of how the Indians had been proselytized; weren't they one of the fiercer tribes? And would Ian just walk awa..."Did Emily and her new hubby convert to Christianity? I thought they were just living among the white community because of their involvement with the war effort. As for Emily in a "western" style dress, I just chalked that up to when in Rome...
If that little boy is Ian's son, maybe he didn't want to create a half belonging half not belonging situation for the kid. Also, he didn't like Emily's new hubby not because he wasn't a good man but because he stole Emily from him. Lastly, I think the Mohawk are more a maternal society so the kids would have stayed with Mom even if Dad was a full blooded Mohawk and still with the tribe.
Quirkygal wrote: "ChristinaRae wrote: "I actually thought Young Ian's episode with Emily odd; there wasn't enough explanation of how the Indians had been proselytized; weren't they one of the fiercer tribes? And wo..."The kid was not actually Ians son, he was the other mans son. Except that the mother of Emily called him the son of his soul. So it's not his son, only by spirit is he his son, not by blood.
Alicia wrote: "Quirkygal wrote: "ChristinaRae wrote: "I actually thought Young Ian's episode with Emily odd; there wasn't enough explanation of how the Indians had been proselytized; weren't they one of the fierc..."There wasn't enough explanation of what was going on in the Indian village with the Europeans. (That's why it's confusing) I think the general opinion is that the little boy IS Ian's biological son, because of the Mohawk belief that conception is a spiritual event, which Ian described in ABOSAA.
Jennifer asked about how J/C letters get to B/R-bank box delivery (reminiscent of "Back to the Future #3") is described in EITB. Also Fergus has no idea of who is (yet) as no one has connected the full story and sat down with him to explain to him the relationship. Question-At what point did LJG learn about Claire being from the future? I must have missed it during the long dark years between the books.
Did the family at Lollybroch really believe that Claire was from the future? Seemed that DG skimmed over that.
DG seemed to skim over many of what I thought were more key or pivotal reactions and emotions to things happening (ie -Claire time traveller telling to the Lollybroch clan, Jamie dead, Ian jr after naming his son, etc).
Sidenote on Lizard-could be Ian's because rh factor affects children who have different plus/minus than the mother after one she's had is her opposite, but may not effect if child is same plus/minus as mother subsequently.
Maybe someone can also clear up a thought about Roger and "Uncle Buck". If you are supposed to focus on where or who you want to go to when going through the stones, could it be that R/WB actually don't go back, because Jem is in the tunnel and not back in time?
I also personally think that Fiery Cross/ ABOSAA/ and EITB could have been one book. The war stuff seems to drag and feels like filler. I'm sure DG is using the conflicts though to bring Jamie and Willie and everyone else together somehow. Part of the acceptance that time travel does happen and odds are not against the same people running into each other in the wilds of america during war-writers perogative I suppose.
I agree with others LJG and C having sex-EWW. I would have believed them to stay up and drink more and share stories-(wake-like). Where was the sadness that someone should feel who loses their soulmate?
I guess that I like everyone else will have to wait 3-4 years to see things resolved in book 8. And at least that much more time again before book 9. I know that DG has said that she is taking the books to 1800. At the current rate of time passage (2-3years per book) then we have 6-8 more books till the end. Loyalties will be tested, and hopefully the bulk of the stories won't just be in the last third of each of these books like EITB.
You know, that's a good question about Roger and Buck! Never thought of that. Roger would be thinking of Jem, so if Jem's not there...? Excellent point Karen!--
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Oh, and we did not find out in this book HOW Jem knew that Jamie thought that Amanda was a fiesty, wee baggage either.--
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I just skimmed the last 225 posts, but... is anyone else as annoyed as I am with the 4 separate storylines thing? I hated that only 1/4 of the book really revolved around Claire and Jamie. You know...the main characters !I love LJ and Young Ian dearly, but if there's going to be so much story for them, it should be in their own novels! For goodness sake, LJ actually has his own series!(I would love a Young Ian series...)
Personally I think there would be a discrepancy in this book because it has been three years since the last book and she's been doing the Lord John books in between so her brain would automatically go into "LJ mode".I also think that we need to stop thinking about these books as Jamie and Claire books (NOT that I don't love them cuz I do). These are historical books, not traditional romance books and are centered around Jamie and Claire's family. Because lets face it, isn't anyone else a little creeped and annoyed that late-50's/early-60's people get more sex and can beat the stuffing out of the 20 somethings? Doesn't seem very plausible to me. I like hearing about other people in the Jamie/Claire world.
That being said, LOL, this book was very choppy, and it did feel as if Diana looked at her page count and go "Oh crap! My editor told me not to go over 900 pages!" So she had to rush to end the book. Though I do believe she always meant to leave the cliffhangers for us fans and don't believe we'll have to wait 3 more years for book 8.
It's only been a few months in the timeline of the book. This IS the story of Jamie and Claire. DG said so. It's 'the story of a marriage'. They're not historical books because we're talking about time travel here. And there is sparse mention of actual historical characters.DG did not rush because she told me that she didn't.
And Jamie and Claire don't have much sex in this book. But, as long as they're hot for each other I find that much less 'creepy' than Claire and Lord John. Not THAT is creepy.
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'now'. Pardon my typo.--
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Diana wrote: "Personally I think there would be a discrepancy in this book because it has been three years since the last book and she's been doing the Lord John books in between so her brain would automatically..."What is creepy about having sex in your 60's? 60 isn't dead. LJ and Claire creepy! I think that Claire and Jamie being so in love and sexually active is great and I hope to follow suit.
Another die hard Diana´s books fan here. Probably the only male though ;-)... My wife and I have all books in german AND english in order to get the most out of all her writings.As for her latest book, I don´t really like the overall taste of it. It´s still a good read of course but not quite as good as the other ones.
I do understand that Diana always does write separate mini-stories and then ties them together later on.. only that this time you can really tell it. It seems to be stitched together with a hot needle. The storyline doesn´t really get into gears.
Some characters and situations just feel shallow and not well integrated into the overall story. Arch Bug in the whole book or Claire´s behavior after Jamies "death". Mentioning that, I don´t actually object to her sleeping with Lord John - it´s more that the whole scene felt constructed and not very realistic to me. Same goes for large parts of Briana´s and Roger´s episodes within the book.
As for the ending - dozens have already dwelled about it here and it hasn´t really WOWed me either. It had a touch of "racing to the finish line" and preparing the outline for the next book while leaving quite some open story-lines dangling out of the book.
Reading the last third of the book somehow made me feel like I *should* be in the middle instead of the last third of the story. I strongly think that the book simply had been too big and they cut it down to fit standard sizes. A shame really... but well... I am an addict and I will surely continue to buy everything that flows out of Diana´s (virtual) quill ;-).
All the best,
El
Easyel wrote: "Another die hard Diana´s books fan here. Probably the only male though ;-)... My wife and I have all books in german AND english in order to get the most out of all her writings.Well, it's interesting to finally meet a man who is a fan. I've been wondering where you guys were. It's interesting to get an opinion from a male perspective and see why they like the books. Cause i've wanted to recommend these to some of my male friends but i feel kind of awkward about it, because of the romance factor, even though these books are really quite violent overall, and the romance doesn't dominate the WHOLE book.
Alicia wrote: "Well, it's interesting to finally meet a man who is a fan. I've been wondering where you guys were. It's interesting to get an opinion from a male perspective and see why they like the books. Cause i've wanted to recommend these to some of my male friends but i feel kind of awkward about it, because of the romance factor, even though these books are really quite violent overall, and the romance doesn't dominate the WHOLE book...."My boyfriend is actually the one who introduced me to the series! He read Outlander in college and loved it. But weird enough, he hasn't continued with the series, which kills me because I want to talk about it with him! And since he plans on reading them all someday, I can't spoil anything for him.
I love that there are men who read this series. It's hard to get guys into a book that's so typically geared towards women.
Sarah wrote: My boyfriend is actually the one who introduced me to the series! He read Outlander in college and loved it. But weird enough, he hasn't continued with the series, which kills me because I want to talk about it with him! And since he plans on reading them all someday, I can't spoil anything for him. >....>>>Wow, that's cool. You should make him read the rest, he doesn't know what he's missing!!! Did he say why he liked the books, cause maybe if i understand what appeals to men about these books, i can explain that to them when i recommend that they read it. Cause I love these books so much you just want to share your enjoyment with EVERYONE, male or female. i'm sure you understand what i'm talking about. Let me know.
Renee wrote: And Jamie and Claire don't have much sex in this book. But, as long as they're hot for each other I find that much less 'creepy' than Claire and Lord John. Not THAT is creepy. You know, Jaime and Claire are not all that young anymore, and it's been years since their reunion so it makes sense that their desires would slack JUST a little. Although, I'm glad that even at their ages they're still doing it, it's healthy, it feels good and if you still got it, by all means flaunt it. But like i said, they are getting old so it makes sense that they're not having sex all the time. Let's be grateful that they're having sex at all, since most people that age find it more like a chore than anything else. So yay for Jaime and Claire!!! No matter how often they do it, as long as they're still doing it!! Lol.
Alicia wrote: "Sarah wrote: My boyfriend is actually the one who introduced me to the series! He read Outlander in college and loved it. But weird enough, he hasn't continued with the series, which kills me becau..."I don't know if he ever went into detail with me about why he liked Outlander. I know that he just thinks Jamie is a super-cool alpha male. And I'm sure that being a guy, he probably found some of the history and warfare in it enjoyable. And, despite not wanting to seem too unmanly, I'm sure that he enjoyed the romance aspect of it as well :o) I just wouldn't mention too much of the romance when telling people about it! Luckily, I think all the bookstores in my region have switched DG's stuff to regular fiction, instead of putting it in romance.
Sarah wrote: "Alicia wrote: "Sarah wrote: My boyfriend is actually the one who introduced me to the series! He read Outlander in college and loved it. But weird enough, he hasn't continued with the series, which..."Well, i suppose i could just say it's a historical fiction with an element of fantasy (you know, cause of the time-traveling). I guess that would be the best approach when it comes to men.
Alicia wrote: "Sarah wrote: "Alicia wrote: "Sarah wrote: My boyfriend is actually the one who introduced me to the series! He read Outlander in college and loved it. But weird enough, he hasn't continued with the..."And play up the military and medical aspects! Blood and guts! Yeah!!
Ha exactly! Tell them it's a manly book about war and history with a little bit of sci-fi. Mind as well leave out the romance entirely and let it be a surprise! :o) I know quite a few guys who would start reading it and then blush profusely once it got to Frank and Claire's romp outside in the beginning of Outlander!
Sarah wrote: "Ha exactly! Tell them it's a manly book about war and history with a little bit of sci-fi. Mind as well leave out the romance entirely and let it be a surprise! :o) I know quite a few guys who woul..."Ha Ha! That's hilarious!!! I don't understand why guys don't like reading about love and sex when that occupies like 75% of their thoughts anyway. Seriously!!
Well, why do you Easyel, as the only male here like the Outlander series since the ladies are discussing that.--
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Guys don't like to read about sex; they like to have sex! (My personal opinion, after years of careful study)
Does anyone know how to get into the Compuserve Website. I can't get into it.
I too was so upset when Jem got kidnapped and I realized that there was NO WAY Diana could tie up that plot in the number of pages left in Echo. But! At least there's another book!
My recommendation, if you have not read it, is to get a copy of the Outlander Companion. I just bought it a couple of days ago and it's helping me get over the anxiety of having finished her last book. However, I do plan to pick up An Echo in the Bone in a few months and read it at a slow rate so I can savor every word, every paragraph and every page as it really should be....
I read Echo pretty fast, too. I do plan to read it again more slowly. I started to read the series again before reading it and made it only through the first 4. Now am on the 5 and will read the rest before rereading Echo. I was not very interested in the battles...and felt also that there was not enough of Jamie and Claire. I could understand her comtemplating suicide when she thought Jamie had died, but NOT the marriage and certainly NOT sex with LJ. I even feel betrayed about that. It seems she would have been in a state of shock longer - as she had been before after Faith's death. I have read the LJ books, but don't plan to ever reread them. Just not that interesting - nothing like the depth of Claire and Jamie. . The reason for the marriage with LJ was so glossed over. Claire was comtemplating carrying messages, and all of a sudden, it had been 3 months and she was about to be arrested. Talk about leaving out details! To me the pace of all the story lines was awry. Too much in some areas and not enough in others. I am appalled at the number of the cliff hangers. So many of the hanging details were being cleared up - but the last pages were whoppers. Yes, maybe Roger will meet up with Jem in the tunnel - or whereever that is going. I have to agree about DG rushing to finish the book. Maybe she needs to do more rereading and not so many tours. BTW the person who thought Jamie and Claire are too old for sex, must be very young. Another thing I didn't like was the ugly, crude sex words. All in all, I am disappointed in this book. I may change my mind after another reading, but there shouldn't be a question of the jury being out. I have gotten more used to Brianna and Roger --didn't really like them too much at the beginning of their story. But love Jamie and Claire. One of the best things is how Jamie can talk about loving Claire.
-I have to agree about DG rushing to finish the book.-I got to see Diana on her book tour and she was rushing to finish because of publisher dates, not because of her own desire. Also, if you've seen her speak and/or read Outlandish Companion, remember that she writes in bits and pieces them together, so sometimes things seem really random, and then four hundred pages or a book and a half later she picks them up and ties everything together neatly with a bow.
That said, these cliff hangers in the last 150 pages or so are going to kill me.
I'd like send her a message a la Jamie from all of us, 'Write fast, woman!"
I have to confess, I read all of the comments while I was waiting on the book. I'm horribly impatient! That being said, I liked the book! After reading all the comments I was very prepared to dislike it but I think it helped to keep me from being to anxious or disappointed. I like Lord John, William and Ian, I was glad to get to spend more time with them. I like Roger and Bree but wasn't really that in to their storyline. My only major complaint was the jumping around in time. That got confusing and I kept having to go back to check dates. Other then that, I really enjoyed it! I liked it MUCH better then ABOSA. But I do hope Rachel drops the "thee's" before the next book. :)
Timberley wrote: "I have to confess, I read all of the comments while I was waiting on the book. I'm horribly impatient! That being said, I liked the book! After reading all the comments I was very prepared to disli..."No kidding about the "thee's". For some reason i found that highly annoying. I am only willing to read that if it's in the bible, and i don't read the Bible so...... that should say it all.
Laughing about the "thee's" because as a Quaker myself, I find them annoying! But Gabaldon has kept us historically accurate and Rachel would have indeed used "plainspeak" if she lived in Quaker community. As explained at the back of Echo, English,you will find in studying Romance languages, had a formal and informal form of "you". (In French you have "tu" and "vous", etc..) The Quakers did not believe in using the formal form of "you" (which was "you") because everyone is equal in the eyes of God. So they used the informal, which is "thee".But yes, it's kinda annoying!
Sheri
Oh, Renee just take a breather! It's perfectly fine to 'not like' a book. It happens. We all have our expectations but it's every author's right to take every twist and turn they please. Disappointment only means that your hopes were high. If you have high hopes...that means you were thoroughly obsessed (sorry...join the crowd) with the first 6 books. Just take a break and read something else. I feel your pain!