Outlander Series discussion
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Just finished Echo in the Bone (spoilers included)
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Misfit
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Oct 11, 2009 11:44AM
One thing that struck me with Jamie and Claire was the sex between them - it seemed cruder and more detailed than I recalled in the other books. I just didn't get much real chemistry between them. Or perhaps I've changed in three years.
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Hahaha, you mean Claire having to fondle herself to get Jamie all steamed up? Yeah, Jamie seemed to have lost his sizzle in that one. Or something like that. ;)I wrote an email to my friend wondering what Jamie and Claire would do to keep the 'danger' in their marriage so that their sex life would be great. I mean, they get off on near death situations. So, they'll have to amplify the simplest of emergencies. Like Claire burning the tatties.
"Oh, ye might have been killed," says Jamie.
"But I only burnt the potatoes, Jamie and I wasn't...Oh, yes, umm, it was awful!" Claire exclaims, seeing Jamie rub his own tatties. "The blackened skin! The burnt smell!"
"I couldna live thinking that ye'd been burnt with the tatties, Sassenach. I must have ye now."
--The domestic sex life of elder Jamie and Claire.
--
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Marie wrote: "I think she knows exactly what she is doing.She is a brilliant storyteller who has kept us all enthralled for years and years. These discussion groups are testimony to her talent for creating chara..."It had only been 1 or 2 months for goodness sakes.
Renee wrote: "Hahaha, you mean Claire having to fondle herself to get Jamie all steamed up? Yeah, Jamie seemed to have lost his sizzle in that one. Or something like that. ;)I wrote an email to my friend won..."
Wow! Why don't you offer to ghost write the next one?(he-he-he)
I think that offer would get me slapped in the head. :)But it is hilarious that every time death or near death rears it's head Claire gets frisky. Geez, she even had sex with a gay man cause she thought Jamie was dead. I told you all that Jamie and Claire were weirdos.
--
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That girl's a superfreak.--
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Megan wrote: "I just had a crazy revelation, and I'm not sure if it holds up. OK, remember the whole Fraser Prophecy that Geillis Duncan talked about in Voyager? Why she was going back to the future--to get Bri..."Okay, so Rob Cameron's motive was all about the gold. I'm wondering if he is related to Jocasta and it ties in with the fact that the gold was hidden in the tomb at River Run. I'm going to re-read the first 6 books and see if I can get some "aha" moments.
Snap Tracy thats what i'm doing right now but I think that Rob Cameron maybe knew Gilles Duncan or knew of her & that is where the gold thing has come from, maybe it is just greed! The reason i came to this conclusion is the SNP ( Scottish National Party )following & the reading of the piece that Roger wrote. Ok Roger didn't mention her but he did mention the gem stones & blood ritual then crossed it out. If he had met that vile woman then she may have shared her views with him on how to make Scotland different with the Jacobite gold & then use it to either 1) fund the SNP cause & use it to influence the people of Scotland , 2)go back in time & somehow manage to get the gold and maybe try & change history by some means, maybe through an other rebellion, which didn't happen, or some other way or 3)keep it for himself! What i do think is that wee Jem will eventually outsmart Rob in some way or another because he seems to be a really switched on wee boy & has the advantage of the knowlage that Jamie, Ian, Roger, Bree, Claire & all the others who are or were back in time had passed onto him plus he is a naturall stone traveller as it is in his blood.
I stil think my thoery that Jem will be the figurehead of the SNP (fulfilling Geillis' prophecy) holds up. DG says Rob is not a relative of Jocasta's.
I just finished An Echo..Not quite sure how I feel. Obviously wanting more. I thought the book started out verrry sllooowww. I wished there was more about Jamie and Claire but I guess how much more could two people handle. I did like how DG brought the story together in the end, as usual, but alot going on. I feel like to many loose ends in this book. Although I did like it alot. I also didn;t understand Claire not questioning Jamie being dead.
ChristinaRae wrote: "I stil think my thoery that Jem will be the figurehead of the SNP (fulfilling Geillis' prophecy) holds up. DG says Rob is not a relative of Jocasta's."When Rob grabbed Jem I figured Rob was a political nutter who knew about the prophecy from Geillis but maybe he's just a greedy son of a gun...
It's also possible that the person who "frees Scotland" according to the prophecy could come from Willie's line. He is a (secret) Fraser and once he reaches majority will take his place in Parliament (as will his eldest son and so on).
Angela wrote: "I also didn;t understand Claire not questioning Jamie being dead. "The a British naval captain and his ship watched the ship Jenny & Jamie were supposed to be on sink. The captain had no motivation in telling Lord John about the sinking ship as he had no way of knowing that LJ's close friend (Jamie) was on it - he was just sharing news of his time at sea. The captain also made it clear that he and his vessel waited and there were no survivors.
LJ's only motivation in telling Claire is to let her know what happened - he's not trying to swindle her land on the Ridge, take advantage of her, etc. Also, I think at this point LJ & Claire have a solid enough relationship that she knows him very well - after all she takes one look at him and immediately starts thinking that something horrible has happened to his nephew or niece. Instead he's there to tell her about Jamie.
This isn't really made clear in the book but in thinking about it at this point I think its safe to presume that LJ & Claire have become friends in their own right. When Claire admits to us that she has been passing info for the Sons of Liberty, she tells us she's been doing so for 3 months. Sooooo, she's been in Philadelphia at least 3 months - maybe a short time longer - taking care of her grandkids, operating/doctoring Henry, giving Marsali a hand, and passing info.
I wouldn't be surprised to learn that during this 3 month time period she's gotten to know Henry, Dottie, Willie, and LJ very well while taking care of Henry. One thing LJ, Claire, and Jamie have in common is the importance they place on their families. Its obvious that Willie loves, respects, and adores his father and LJ's niece and nephew adore him and that he would do almost anything for them (the dude stands guard on Mercy Woodcock's porch every night to make sure no one causes trouble as his nephew is defenseless). While LJ can't really visit the printshop since he knows Fergus is a "rebel" like Claire and Jamie, I'm sure that during their visits they've conversations about her grandchildren, etc. Also, Denny & Rachel Hunter get along with Claire and Jamie; Willie respects Denny and has some additional feelings for Rachel; Dotty is engaged to Denny - it creates a circle of well my friends like you and respect so I'll probably like and respect you too. It furthers that communal bond in the group. (Oh and Rachel refers to Marsali as her friend while she's tending shop for her. I remember clearly because I did little cheer - about time Marsali got a friend!).
But back on point -- Claire really has no reason to suspect that Jamie and Jenny weren't on that ship. The evidence would point to her husband and sister-in-law being lost at sea.
And that is why I think Claire's marriage to LJ is going to stick for a while until they get an annulment. You have two people who entered into a marriage in good faith - LJ is a long time widower and Claire is believed to be a widow (An impartial third party - in the form of a British Naval Captain - watched the ship her husband was on go down) - and Claire has the letter stating that Jamie was on that ship.
Richardson - the guy who tells LJ that Claire was caught passing information - seemed to think that they were having an affair based on the amount time of Claire was spending at the Woodcock's and LJ's home. It's unlikely that LJ - or any man for that matter - would admit to carrying on an affair with a married woman to anyone least he have to face her husband at dawn over pistols or swords. The ground work is there to argue that the two had an attachment prior to marriage.
And this is just me, but I think that Richardson might suspect LJ of passing information to Claire. I think he might be accused of spying and Claire will need to stay married to him to help save his neck (though Jamie may remove other parts of his anatomy...)
Just my thoughts. I'll end this little novella for the time being :~)
The problem is that the British now know that Jamie is alive. The marriage between LJ and Claire is not valid. Whether they thought Jamie dead at the time or not, it doesn't matter. Either way they're in for a lot of trouble.--
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Quirkygal wrote: "ChristinaRae wrote: "I stil think my thoery that Jem will be the figurehead of the SNP (fulfilling Geillis' prophecy) holds up. DG says Rob is not a relative of Jocasta's."When Rob grabbed Jem I..."
While that totally holds water from a logical point of view, it doesn't really work for my Willie fantasy. The one where he says "F*** you, England! I love you, Dad! Both of you! I'll be a wealthy Virginia planter instead of an Earl. And where is that sister I was missing? Oh, there she is! Cute kids. And what a great Stepmom! I'm so glad I found out who I really am. You know, I kind of always wanted to be a Scottish Highlander outlaw's son. It just has a nice ring to it, somehow." That one.
Is it just me or does the chapter where Jamie is lying face down in the mud after the battle seem familiar from a previous book? The whole scene where Claire finds him & she has a barney with the wee boy & his mam just seems to ring bells in ma head! Maybe i read this on her home page in the excerts but i just looked & couldn't see it. Help someone please this is driving me mad!
This may be a random thing to bring up, but what about the sudden reappearance of Tom Christie? What significance did that have? But i do have to say, he may be a grouchy old Scrouge Major, but for some reason i was very happy to find him alive. For some reason as of yet unknown to me, i really like him. Maybe it's just that finally someone loves Claire more than they love Jaime. Cause I swear, EVERYONE falls in love with Jaime, both men and women, even i'm in love with him for heavens sake! Does anyone remember in ABOSAA when he fell in love with her? i just remember Jaime realizing it but there isn't much more detail about the process, all of the sudden Tom was in love with Claire with no real explanation as to when or where or why. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
Fiona wrote: "Is it just me or does the chapter where Jamie is lying face down in the mud after the battle seem familiar from a previous book? The whole scene where Claire finds him & she has a barney with the w..."That was an excerpt. I read it in several places; online and in the back of Brotherhood of the Blade (I think it was that one).
Alicia wrote: "This may be a random thing to bring up, but what about the sudden reappearance of Tom Christie? What significance did that have? But i do have to say, he may be a grouchy old Scrouge Major, but for..."I think in Echo he was more of a device to explain Claire's state (her sensitivity to being touched w/o permission, as befitting a sexual assault victim). In ABOSAA, it is explained at the end that Claire reminded Tom of his condenmed wife, except without all the black magic and infidelity. He viewed her as worthy of love, if somewhat frustrating to his personal preferences for womanly behavior.
What's up with Jaime not being more jealous though? We're all sure that He would kill anyone who advanced on her but Tom Christie kisses her and *nothing* and then "Really? Why?" to the whole LJ thing. Is he getting old or what?
One of the funniest lines in the books, to me, was when Roger thought of Tom Christie and thought 'finally someone who doesn't think the sun shines out of Jamie Fraser's arse'. THAT was hilarious!The thing with Tom Christie is that he never really DID anything to be disliked for. Jamie just didn't like him.
Although, I'm not quite sure why he reappears in Echo. It's nice to know he didn't hang, but that was an odd pop up. A loose end I guess. Or maybe he'll pop up again in the next book.
Well, with the LJ and Jamie finding out thing it was the end of the book. We don't get Jamie's full reaction. I'm sure he'll be grateful for his saving Claire and Marsali and family, but I think Jamie is going to be more angry with Claire about the sex. Maybe that's where the French girl gets brought up? You know, when those two get fighting and LOT of nasty things get said, then they have sex.
--
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ChristinaRae wrote: "Fiona wrote: "Is it just me or does the chapter where Jamie is lying face down in the mud after the battle seem familiar from a previous book? The whole scene where Claire finds him & she has a bar..."Thank you so much ChristinaRae i will now sleep tonight! lol
Hubby is sick of me girning on about it & now he may well get some peace.
Fiona wrote: "ChristinaRae wrote: "Fiona wrote: "Is it just me or does the chapter where Jamie is lying face down in the mud after the battle seem familiar from a previous book? The whole scene where Claire find..."You're very welcome, and what is girning? Is that a Scots word?
Sorry yeah it means moaning! I sometimes get a wee bit carried away & forget.
Fiona wrote: "Sorry yeah it means moaning! I sometimes get a wee bit carried away & forget."I'm sure you can use any words you like; we're all a bit enchanted with Scotland around here! (my husband is probably sick of me *girning on* about visiting Scotland, for what it's worth)
ChristinaRae wrote: "Fiona wrote: "Sorry yeah it means moaning! I sometimes get a wee bit carried away & forget."I'm sure you can use any words you like; we're all a bit enchanted with Scotland around here! (my hus..."
I think if i started typing the way i talk i would get blocked from this group. lol I speak Doric & some auld Scots due to having Glasweigen parents/ Grandparents but i was born & bred in the North east coast so i can switch it easily. You should visit oor wee part o the country, Scotland that is. Loads to see & do even when its raining, like it does 70% of the time. Fantastic culture & fantabulas food, oh aye n nae forgettig men in kilts,hogmany n Stunning scenery! lol
Renee wrote: "... Although, I'm not quite sure why he reappears in Echo. It's nice to know he didn't hang, but that was an odd pop up. A loose end I guess. Or maybe he'll pop up again in the next book. ..."
I thought he popped up to explain how the death notice came to be in the paper and to let us know what he was doing (i.e., not dead but writing religious/life improvement type literature). I feel badly for Tom - like Roger I had initially hoped he would find happiness with Amy (the fisherfolk woman with two young sons who became Claire & Jamie's maid after Lizzy married). I still hope he can find some happiness with someone. Poor guy.
Fiona wrote: "ChristinaRae wrote: "Fiona wrote: "Sorry yeah it means moaning! I sometimes get a wee bit carried away & forget."I'm sure you can use any words you like; we're all a bit enchanted with Scotland..."
Summer, 2012, kids and all. I'm counting the days.
And who's to say Tom isn't happy, writing fun and informative religious tracts?:)
OMG! I found this sight and said to myself "I'm not alone!!!" So anyway, I'm a major fan...one of those who bought an extra Outlander book for the SOLE purpose of lending it out. Well....and because I needed to "reference" certain paragraphs while book #1 was loaned. Mainly the marriage night...gotta love that one! Whew! Moving on...just finished the book Saturday. Here are my reflections:Slightly disappointed....I think I wanted more. Complete cliffhanger. I kind of feel like this is a transitional book (sort of like Fiery Cross)...but I keep thinking "How can she just END it like that???" How? So anyway,
~I did like the four stories.
~I enjoyed the communication with letters between Jamie/Clair and Roger/Bree.
~I enjoyed learning more about Ian...love him! He is totally a romantic. Do you remember how romantic he thought it was when Claire returned? It was Voyager I think....
~I liked the villain....was it only Arch Bug this time? He was kind of a shadow throughout the book.
So what I could not get over was:
~Jamie ending the conversation like so....
~complete cliffhanger with Bree/Roger and Jem/Mandy??? What's up with that? So this Cameron guy tricked them to get rid of Roger??? Is he a time traveler? Where will Jem end??? Aahhhh!
~Jenny just leaving her family. What? I was just very imaginative and told myself the Old Ian wanted her to see about the 'wee lad' in America.
~That Jamie and Claire would separate.
~The rushed feeling at the end. It's totally like DG to explain how one would transport a printing press. That one was missed on me. Will he send for it later? Anyway, small distraction.
~Whatever happended to Percy's story?
I immediately started reading another book to try to buff the bummer effect. Didn't work! I just kept asking all these questions that my husband could not (and cannot...the questions appear to be lingering on to today) answer. LOL! Poor guy! All in all, I still love DG and am moderately satisfied with EITB...just wished for a little more.
Postscriptum 1 ~ thanks ChristinaRae for reminding me about the prologue in relation to Claire. That helped.
Postscriptum 2 ~ What the deal with everyone saying "Right"? Did anyone notice that?
ciao.
ChristinaRae wrote: "You know what? We should all re-read it slowly and then come back in a few weeks and see what we think. "I just can't! But I may! Anyway, thanks for reminding me about the prologue in the beginning in relation to Claire. Totally forgot about that.
Renee wrote: "Well, I was at Diana's blog and basically said the same things I've said here. I would not say them here and not say them to Diana. That would be two-faced and I'm pretty straightforward. So is she..."Renee, thanks for this! It still felt rushed to me. I just kept saying to myself...."this has to be on purpose; she never does this". But, I do not know. Still love the book and DG. Completely dedicated. If nothing else the next book will be a monster filled with unanswered questions!
Alexis wrote: Renee, thanks for this! It still felt rushed to me. I just kept saying to myself...."this has to be on purpose; she never does this". But, I do not know. Still love the book and DG. Completely dedicated. If nothing else the next book will be a monster filled with unanswered questions! Let's hope that the next book is THE answer to all our unanswered questions rather than leaving us with more questions than we started with, and with us scratching our heads wondering what the hell happened.
Marguerite wrote: "Emily wrote: "Yes, I also wonder about Buck traveling forwards...Maybe it's because his mother came from the future, so if she'd come back to her normal time he would have come with her. I have a f..."Emily & Marguerite....what about Roger's father??? Where did he get lost to? Do you suppose he will show up?
Leslie wrote: "It would have been much more suspensful and maybe we would have all been more understanding of Claire dealing with her grief, if we were all grieving too. I may be too emotionally invested in thes..."I would not have been able to digest Jamie dying!!! That was a smart move for her.
Renee wrote: "William escorted them, then Ian met them. Willam being a party to the romance that was between Dottie and the Dr. Do not ask me where that story came from. You know, I can barely remember when Ian ..."So....Rachel & Ian met when Ian dropped him off (so to speak) to heal. He met her again when he delivered the letter & gifts, right? I can totally see him falling in love. Actually, Claire asked Jamie "when did he fall in love with Rachel anyway" -summarized- and he said in a nutshell ~ don't you believe in love @ first sight.... Remember this?
Renee wrote: "I don't know how much play the money has. But since she doesn't agree with us that Jamie and Claire are flat in their emotions, I guess we'll never find out what went wrong.Btw, someone brought..."
Good question...but I loved the jealousy it created in Jamie....and Claire for that matter. Remember when Jamie brought up Laoghaire? Slapped him she did!
Alicia wrote: "This may be a random thing to bring up, but what about the sudden reappearance of Tom Christie? What significance did that have? But i do have to say, he may be a grouchy old Scrouge Major, but for..."Not sure why he showed up....but I like it. As to when he fell in love....you remember when Claire was checking on his hand; about to operate? Do you remember when he looked at her and asked why she never covered up her hair? I think he was feelin' a little lusty! lol!
Alexis wrote: "Renee wrote: "Actually, Claire asked Jamie "when did he fall in love with Rachel anyway" -summarized- and he said in a nutshell ~ don't you believe in love @ first sight.... Remember this?"Right - I forgot. It would be nice to see Rachel fall in love with Ian though or was it love in first sight for her too? We know she longs for his company and her devotion to Rollo is a sign of her devotion to Ian (plus who wouldn't love such a cute cuddly little puppy? -- er OK huge fish eating wolf/dog). It would have been nice to see or hear of them sharing a dinner around the camp fire together - even if its just Rachel cooking for Ian & Jamie 'cause her brother and Claire are busy with the wounded.
I do love the fact that Rachel asked Denny if he noticed that William looked like Friend Jamie. Glad somebody took notice!
ChristinaRae wrote: "Alicia wrote: "This may be a random thing to bring up, but what about the sudden reappearance of Tom Christie? What significance did that have? But i do have to say, he may be a grouchy old Scrouge..."Geez...I'm psycho blogging. Oh well, it's therapy. Anyway,Jamie is completely jealous. He can't kill the man; Tom gave his life for Claire. I think he respects him for that. To me it seemed like he was trying (with great effort) to be calm about it. Right? That makes it more exciting. If he would have gone on a tandrum and...I don't know...put his hand through a window...that would not have been as effective for me. It's funny how we all have different perspectives! Love it!
Alexis wrote: "ChristinaRae wrote: "Alicia wrote: "This may be a random thing to bring up, but what about the sudden reappearance of Tom Christie? What significance did that have? But i do have to say, he may be ..."yeah, and Jaime isn't a possesive-jealous young man anymore. not to say he was in the first place, but it most definitely bothers him. Why do you think he immediately makes love to Claire after. Hello, he's reaffirming his claim and his love. And reassuring himself in the process as well.
Alexis wrote: "Alicia wrote: "This may be a random thing to bring up, but what about the sudden reappearance of Tom Christie? What significance did that have? But i do have to say, he may be a grouchy old Scrouge..."I think so too. I always got the feeling he liked her from the get go.
Alicia wrote: "Alexis wrote: "ChristinaRae wrote: "Alicia wrote: "This may be a random thing to bring up, but what about the sudden reappearance of Tom Christie? What significance did that have? But i do have to ..."Oh I think he was a possessive young man remember at Jacosta's when that young guy (name escapes me) put the moves on Claire following her around like a puppy. He went crazy calling Claire bad names sneaking it her bedroom (if that was him?) taking her to the barn and having some great sex!
I just finished and really liked it. I agree that the cliffhangers were a bit disturbing and frustrating, especiallly given how long it takes for the next book to come out, but I get why she did it. At first, I was really irritated by how much Lord John/William were in the book and really wanted the chapters to get back to Jamie/Claire or Bree/Roger, but they grew on me, especiall William. I've never been a LJG fan. I've never really liked his attitude toward Claire. I'm kind of glad they married and developed their own friendship. We knew it wasn't a real marriage, so it's easier for me to accept that they turn to each other in a really sad time. It is strange that they had sex but I loved Jamie's reaction. Speaking of Rachel and Ian, I like them together and one of my favorite lines in the book was when she compared him to Rollo and said he was HER wolf. So cute.
Christy wrote: "I just finished and really liked it. I agree that the cliffhangers were a bit disturbing and frustrating, especiallly given how long it takes for the next book to come out, but I get why she did i..."I like the way you think Christy, because i feel almost the exact same way, except that i liked the parts with William. Mostly because if he was becoming apart of the story finally, that has to mean that he and Jaime are going to cross paths eventually, which means he might finally learn the truth. It really is staggering how much that poor man does not know, about his mother, Jaime, LJG (sexual orientation and his feelings for Jaime), Claire and her time-traveling, Bree his half-sister who he doesn't actually know is his half-sister, and her place in the future, and her husband, the gold. The list goes on and on about all the things he doesn't know. Although i agree that at times I did also get impatient and wanted to hear what was going on elsewhere. The Lord John parts were tedious for me sometimes since the only purpose that served was to discover Fergus's origins, I only like the parts with him when he with someone else like Claire, Jaime or William. I also really liked that Ian and William sort of became friends, and that William is a lot like Jaime, in that he has honor, and courage, and is very smart. Unfortunately he also suffers from chronic sea-sickness. Poor guy.
Alexis- Well, but has anyone noticed that Ian has never said that he loves Rachel? I think that was mentioned in the book somewhere. Small doubts that he loves her. Can't wait for Rachel and Jenny to meet though.--
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Christy- I want to hear LJ explain to Jamie how a gay man felt the need to bonk his wife, because he wanted to think of Jamie. Yeah, talk fast Lord John.--
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Renee wrote: "Alexis- Well, but has anyone noticed that Ian has never said that he loves Rachel? I think that was mentioned in the book somewhere. Small doubts that he loves her. Can't wait for Rachel and Jenny ..."Hey Renee! Noooo...no doubts that he loves her. He left his father's side to go find her. Not to mention that he left his dog in her care. Dr. Hunter (Rachel's brother) was the one who asked her if Ian had in fact said 'he loved her'.
Renee wrote: "Christy- I want to hear LJ explain to Jamie how a gay man felt the need to bonk his wife, because he wanted to think of Jamie. Yeah, talk fast Lord John.Right Renee! Talk REALLY fast! I have been thinking how that conversation will go. Geez!
Alexis wrote: "Renee wrote: "Alexis- Well, but has anyone noticed that Ian has never said that he loves Rachel? I think that was mentioned in the book somewhere. Small doubts that he loves her. Can't wait for Rac..."That's funny. Although at least he admitted it right away. I'm sure the explanatory conversation will happen sometime in the next book. At least, that's what i hope and expect.
As much as I love Diana Gabaldon's writing and this series specifically, I have to say I haven't been all that comfortable with how she's dealt with homosexuality on the whole. Randall was a perverted sociopath who apparently got off on torture. John Grey pines away for an obviously heterosexual married man and resents his wife. Percy is manipulative and unfaithful. It's odd and out of character for John to go to Claire's bed and for her to accept him into it. That was just weird. It would have made much more sense if they just sat up talking all night and established a closeness that way. But, whatever. I'm looking forward to them both explaining it to Jamie and how he'll handle it.
Yes, the brother said that and I am wondering why he said it. It is true. He's never said it. Jamie went through hell for Claire,but he finally said it once he was sure she loved him. Something 'odd' about that being included in the book. He seems to need an anchor in a storm. A place to come back to and I don't think that's very "I want ye with me forever."But, then again, I thought the Rachel and Ian love came out of nowhere. Whether Ian felt love at first site or not. What about Rachel? Her part in it doesn't seem to make sense.
--
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Oh, I should mention that I hate this book. I can talk relevant bits and pieces, but I really hate it. I've tried to start Outlander again and I'm stalled. I have to get this book out of my head before I can really go back and just enjoy Outlander the way I did before. That's never happened with any of the other books. I'm hoping the series has NOT been ruined for me.--
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