Outlander Series discussion
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Just finished Echo in the Bone (spoilers included)
Haha, I hope not either! We never know, do we?You know, I was feeling like a real meanie until I went over to Amazon and read the customer reviews there. It's striking! Dear, dear Diana we all seem to have the same complaints. I was amazed.
It's not just me! And a couple of you ladies as well. Review after review of similar problems with the book. Can we all be wrong?
And yet most of them will stick with the series and await the next book. You're very lucky to have such fans, Diana. We're not a 'small percentage'. We love the books, we just don't particularly love this one.
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I was feeling pretty mean too. After thinking about it all day. I have to admit I still enjoyed Echo even though I had some issues with it. I did like where she was taking the story and I do want to learn more about the characters. I actually already miss reading about them every day, which means I guess it was a good book after all.
Does anyone else think it was strange that we the reader knew jamie was still alive? I think it may have been more enjoyable had we not known...that storyline would have been much more suspenseful.
It would have been much more suspensful and maybe we would have all been more understanding of Claire dealing with her grief, if we were all grieving too. I may be too emotionally invested in these characters, but I don't think I could have stood it, thinking Jamie was dead!
DG explains on the compuserve forum why she let us the reader know he was still alive.
I've never really questioned why she did that. I assume it was so that we all would be in a state of 'Oh, no Claire!".I am glad that Jamie got to spend that time with Jenny. The time in France and the sea voyage. Although I'd wonder why he wasn't violently ill the whole time without Claire and her needles.
And shouldn't they all have learned by now to never sew anything important into Claire's clothes? For pete's sakes!
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Lena wrote: "All in all, the book was what I had hoped....BUT, none of the others left a cliff hanger as complex as Echo. Everyone is talking about Jamie, Clair, and LJ and I'm thinking, " I can't wait 4 or 5 ..."I agree with you, Lena. I just can't believe that the whole story line of Jem being left in the tunnel and Brianna not knowing if Roger made it through the stones okay, and then being faced with Rob Cameron.
I just hope DG doesn't make us wait tooo long for the next one. And it better be a huge tome!
Emily wrote: "DG explains on the compuserve forum why she let us the reader know he was still alive. "could you clue us in?
I'm definitely paraphrasing, but basically she explains that 1. she's done that to us before (made us think he was dead), so she figured we'd say "not this again..." and 2. it would have been a dramatic shock for us to think he was dead, but it was a different kind of dramatic shock for us to know that he WASN'T dead while we "watched" this happening with Claire & LJ.
Thanks! Don't know if I agree with her thought process, but thanks for clueing us in!
Leslie--Well, I said I felt like a meanie 'until' I read the reviews at Amazon. There are a lot of people there with the same complaints we had here. So, I don't feel like a meanie now.It's funny though how much most reviewers hated to say bad things about the book even though they didn't like it. I think 'Echo' is #2 because the previous 6 books were great and Diana's fans are a loyal and hopeful bunch. She's been blessed in that.
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Renee, I just read some of the Amazon and Barnes and Noble reviews too and you are right everyone has the same complaints. I also hated to be critical because I have enjoyed the other books so much I thought I thought my expectations were maybe just a little to high. I did enjoy the book and the story lines. I just wish somethings were more developed and I would have liked at least one or two things to have some closure.
I just finished Echo about an hour ago. I couldn't believe so much happened, so much I wasn't expecting, in the last 100 pages. Claire and LJ? A little hard to believe, but at least they get over their stiffness with one another. (Oh my did I just make a pun. LOL) Anyway, I enjoyed the book and can't wait to have all my questions and the loose ends addressed in the next book.
Oh, I just want to add that I was really glad to see Jenny Murray come around and be sorry for the way she treated Claire and the things she said to her. Yes, I understand her actions and words, but I was so tired of her being a bitch to Claire. I do hope that they can rekindle a close relationship in the next book now.
I finished Echo this morning. My first question is how did J/C pass the letters on to Bree? Was that covered in the last book? Was Fergus actually told of his supposed parentage??? I thought he never talked to Percy. I was really disappointed in the conclusion. It seems that she all of a sudden needed to end the book without further development of the last several story lines. I'm skeptical about Jenny coming to America. She left more family in Scotland just to follow Ian??? She could have left Lallybroch and just moved elsewhere but nearby. I'm also doubting the family's mute acceptance of Claire's declaration that she's from the future. They just took it rather dumbly without much comment. DG has left so many threads hanging in this novel...it's definitely not my pick of the series. Too much war, and by the way why didn't C/J jump on a ship to Scotland much sooner. I thought they stuck around way too long, although I know there were challenges and he had his 40 days to serve but they didn't even discuss going. I was beginning to think they'd winter there. I, too was blown away by R/I falling in love...WHERE did that come from??? Also C's allowing LJ to bed her. She's certainly not acting a grieving widow...it was supposed to be only a marriage of convenience. It just doesn't fit with her earlier aversion following the rape.
I think with her own kids grown and elder Ian gone that Jamie is where Jenny's heart is. He and Ian were 'home' for her and now that he's gone 'home' is Jamie. But, she might still go back. I did like Jenny getting out and getting to see the world. I just hated Ian having to die for that to happen. Ugh. That really was sad.Yes, they were waiting for Jamie's enlistment time to be up but I don't know what happened to that. I think he used up the time when he got wounded.
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I went to the compuserve website and read DG's responses to people comments about the book. (They had similar frustrations) Reading what she explained about the characters at least cleared up in my mind what she intended to be happening for them emotionally.
Yes, but she shouldn't be explaining what was happening for them emotionally at a forum. That should be made clear in the book.I don't think any explanation, other than this was someone's dream, would fix the flatness of Jamie and Claire's relationship. Or the fact that over half this book is a Lord John book. Or the rushed love of Rachel and Ian. Or the exreme unlikeliness of LJ and Claire sharing a bed for anything other than sleep.
I don't want to pay for a book only to have to find out the answer to all of that on an internet forum.
I haven't been this disappointed in a book since I read 'The Crimson Petal and the White'. And my only gripe with that was the ending, or lack of it. It was never boredom.
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Am I the only person that didn't get the connection with Ian and Rachel's Brother? It is assumed in the book that Ian knew them both from before and hence took William to them to heal, but we had never heard of this relationship before. Right? Then out of the blue Ian is in love with Rachel. Although I was glad that Ian was finally moving on with his life, I felt that the situation was rushed. These aren't my only complaints, but just one of many.
William escorted them, then Ian met them. Willam being a party to the romance that was between Dottie and the Dr. Do not ask me where that story came from. You know, I can barely remember when Ian first met Rachel.I was wondering why Claire did not tell LJ that if he had accepted Jamie's offer that Jamie told her he would have killed him. They're chatting about that time, and Claire thinks Jamie is dead. Why wouldn't she say, "You know, if you had taken up his offer he would have killed you. He told me."? I was waiting for her to say that and she never did. She wouldn't have had to have explained further. Jamie's straight as a arrow.
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Is the Dottie/Dr. Hunter thing begun in a LJ book or are we supposed to understand it just from Echo?
Well, the LJ books take place in the 'between' Outlander years, when Claire was in modern times, so it would seem not. I think Dottie was just born in Brotherhood of the Blade.
Emily wrote: "Is the Dottie/Dr. Hunter thing begun in a LJ book or are we supposed to understand it just from Echo?"I could never figure out where that came from either, it just popped up out of thin air.
I agree with Renee, the author should have to be all over an internet forum explaining her characters and their motives. It should be in the d*** book.
I think I have to agree with everyone. I was thinking I hadn't read closely enough, but when I went back to the Claire/LJ scene and re-read it, I couldn't find any hint of the emotions that Diana had said Claire was having. I suppose if I looked at the foreshadowing I MIGHT have drawn the right conclusion. Maybe.
Though overall I really enjoyed the book, I will have to that I was surprised that there wasn't more dedicated to Claire's feelings/emotions after Jamie's supposed death. I mean, there is so much given over to everything else, why wouldn't DG do more with Claire's feelings? I realize that the aborted suicide plans were indicative of how she was feeling, but it just didn't seem like DG dealt with it like she normally would something of this magnitude.
Did anyone pick up on the part when Claire mentions LJ gave her big dimond earings to use to go thru the stones again. Looks like she did believe he was dead and she wasn't planning on staying with LJ. Don't get me wrong I was so upset with the end of the book. But I actually feel bad for DG. I'm sure she didn't go into writing this book thinking she wanted to make all her fans upset. I think she lost sight of the fact that we all fell in love with Jamie and Claire NOT LJ. I don't see a LJG goodreads forum!
I don't feel badly for her in that she said that this is the way she intended to write the book. Okay, that said, we don't have to like it either. She intended it to be mostly Lord John and I just don't think that that is fair to the readers who were waiting for so long for a Jamie and Claire book. As I said on her blog, this is, after all, the story of a marriage. That's what she calls it. Having LJ occupy an abundance of that story does not fit with the original intent.I just don't know how it's possible to not know that readers are going to be upset about that. She just began telling a Jamie and Claire story and the book ended. It makes me a little resentful. There could have always been another 200 pages or so if she wanted to cut LJ in for half the book, then spend the rest on Jamie, Claire and people we care about.
But it's more than that. There was a flatness to their characters that was utterly disappointing and not up to DG's usual. I don't know WHAT happened in this book, but something just went out of her writing that was there in the previous six books.
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Well, after Seven books she could be losing her wind. She is in a totally different place than she was when she wrote Outlander. Not really an excuse, just a thought. But she has written much longer books, she could have added more story and none of us would have complained. I think she was on a dead line and had to get it finished. Maybe she spent too much time chatting with all of us online.
But she told me on her blog that she did not rush this book and this is the way she intended the book to be. So...--
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Well, to play Diana's advocate, I appreciate her artistic integrity in the fact that she took the characters where she thought they should go and not where the mass market thought they should go. I think there is a huge amount of pressure on authors to write what is selling, regardless.
One could question the artistic integrity of making half the book about a character who has his own series of books and bringing in another character from those books. It smacks of trying to get sales for those other books.As far as what the reader wants. Remember Sir Arthur Conan Doyle killing off Holmes and then by popular demand of his readers having to resurrect Holmes.
I don't think it's a question of integrity to give the readers of the Outlander series the story of what the Outlander series is about. If I buy a book in a series, which I do, I expect the stars of that series to take top priority. You don't read Sherlock Holmes to have half the story be about Mrs. Hudson. It's just commom sense.
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Renee, I think you've summarized it well. Not her usual style of writing, not the characters we've grown to love and way too much left hanging. There's an abruptness in this book that I didn't find in the others. I don't intend to read the LJ series either. So frankly, I'm disappointed. Very disappointed, and I may well lose interest by the time the next appears.
Renee wrote: "One could question the artistic integrity of making half the book about a character who has his own series of books and bringing in another character from those books. It smacks of trying to get sa..."I knew you would respond to that.
I just finished reading all 7 books in about 6 weeks. Having been so delightfully immersed, I was shocked by the segue into Lord John Grey's life in Echo in the Bone. I found the level of detail terribly distracting, and too much to grasp -- unless, perhaps, you have read her other books. Rather than attributing this to baser motives (selling more books) I think it was simply short-sighted on the part of the author, who doesn't grasp what she is putting the reader through because she is herself so immersed in all of her characters. Still, at very least, the editors of such a popular series should not have left this go unchallenged. Ditto for the rushed and unlikely story lines. Experimentation is well and good if it doesn't destroy the bubble of fantasy. The worst thing you can do to a fantasy world is to introduce actions and events that don't fit the characters or the world because it destroys belief and jars the reader out of the spell of immersion. And while it's not a bad idea to bring different story lines and characters together, one would expect them to be developed within the series, rather than having characters suddenly emerge full-blown.
Still, I was grateful to have this most recent book in the series to escape into because like everyone else, I am in love with the vivid characters and the very believable world that she proposes.
Regarding the next book and what might happen:
It seems to me that central character of the series is Jamie, because most of the characters feel strongly about him. Now that the author has brought most of the characters together in one place and time, and popped Jamie into the middle of the stew, there will be a delicious opportunity for him to resolve all these stories directly and in person, or indirectly by sending a message to Brianna in the person of Roger -- or how about this -- in a message about Roger in the letters she already has in her possession! The possibilities are endless, which is the other thing I love most about this series.
ChristinaRae-- So, what are your thoughts? I was reading the other thread and couldn't believe people were apologizing for not reading the LJG books. What the...?I've tried to start of 'Outlander' again, but I was having a difficult time getting THIS book out of my mind. I'm trying for a case of selective amnesia.
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Michele3d- But Brianna can't read the letters because Mr. Cameron wants her to take him to the gold.I'd like to be grateful for this book, but I'm so disappointed I can't be. What a let down. But, it's like the movie box office. Once I've bought the ticket what does it matter if I don't like the film?
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OK, I'm only 7/8 through BOSAA, but have been scanning these spoilers as I've been so excited about EITB. If it's mostly about LJG, then I might not even bother. Should I? He's never been a fave of mine - and I realized that it's not because he's gay, but because he comes between C and J. His character has never held any interest for me whatsoever, so I cannot imagine an entire series about him.But there WILL be a sequel to EITB, right? Do we know how long - roughly - this will be?
Yes there will be...expect it to take several years.
Thanks, Jennifer. One more question: where is this Compuserve forum and has Diana been on there much since the release of EITB?Sheri
I agree - LJG is boring and the passages about him are tedious. Why did she include these? Could it be she has no idea how love can flourish after 50? Is that why Jamie and Claire are so unromantic? Or is it she's burned out on romance in general -- look at the shallow treatment she gives to Ian and William's feelings for Rachel. A lot more insight is given to the failed romances between Ian and Emily and Jamie and Laogahaire. Or on Jenny's loss (but not Claire's). LJG and Claire are of course utterly unromantic and as many have pointed out, utterly improbable.Could it be the author's heart has gone out of the story?
Sheri- You should slog through it at least once. There's a tie-in to Fergus in all the LJ machinations. So, go through it once.Michele3d- Well, I thin she and her husband are over 50 and they seem very happy, so I don't think it's that. It's an inexplicable flatness. And we know that she can do so much better. That's the frustrating bit. To have the talent for drawing you into a story that DG has and to not be drawn in...I just wonder what the editors were doing? Did not one person say to her, "This is flat. I'm feeling no emotions."? If not, why not?
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I think I agree with you, Renee. Perhaps she just got bored. After all, she's probably made her mint by now.
I don't know how much play the money has. But since she doesn't agree with us that Jamie and Claire are flat in their emotions, I guess we'll never find out what went wrong.Btw, someone brought this up at the Amazon reviews. What was the point in re-introducing Tom Christie? He just popped up and popped off again. I mean, it's nice to know he's alive, but it seemed oddly out of place in the story. Like an extra bit just thrown in.
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Renee wrote: "ChristinaRae-- So, what are your thoughts? I was reading the other thread and couldn't believe people were apologizing for not reading the LJG books. What the...?I've tried to start of 'Outland..."
I guess it all boils down to what we think of Diana, really. Is it possible she is leading us down a road with this book that will make sense later in the journey? I don't see how she could wrap up the series in one more book; I think it will have to be two. So do we trust her?
Or, you could speculate that she was on some God-trip because she has all these fans who adore her and she just wanted to mess with all of us. That's how writers turn evil, you know, they start out wanting people to like their work and sooner or later they want to toy with people and take them on "emotional journeys":). I did see one compuserve note where she said that since many people thought ABOSAA was the end of the series (because the plots tied up so neatly) that she made sure NO-ONE would think Echo was the end. (I guess we'll say she succeeded) I suspect that she did it all on purpose, and she may have more up her sleeve than we realize. That being said, if the next book is as frustrating as this one was, I will decide that she just lost touch and got cocky being worshipped at all those Scottish Games Festivals.
Sheri wrote: "Thanks, Jennifer. One more question: where is this Compuserve forum and has Diana been on there much since the release of EITB?Sheri"
http://community.compuserve.com/n/pfx...
Diana pops up on many of the discussions.
I think she knows exactly what she is doing.She is a brilliant storyteller who has kept us all enthralled for years and years. These discussion groups are testimony to her talent for creating characters so real and endearing that we talk about them like they are part of own lives -which they are- they are so familiar and real and loved! I felt a little confused at first but I can now clearly see that she has orchestrated things in this way because she has a plan! She has us talking, arguing doesn't she? Do not understimate this woman;she is an evil mastermind.It is not about the money. It never is for a true artist , which you must all agree she is. And.. if she rehashed the same old, same old every book, readers would inevitably get bored and crave something more exciting.We would have switched off long ago. The characters need to take risks and change and develop, otherwise they are not real anymore.I have been married 23 years and am not wife I was 23/15/10/5 years ago.I learn a new thing about myself and my husband every day. Our relationship dynamics have changed. Nothing is totally predictable. As far as LJ is concerned I am not a huge fan, apart from when he interacts with J and C,and then I loooove the tension-but I believe he is pivotal to the future plot in some way.Why did Claire sleep with him? Because he is the only other person in the world who loves him, craves him, fantasizes about him the way she does.He is her only link to him. Think about people that are very old and have no one left alive who knew them in their youth.No link to when they were young and beautiful.No one who could remember something fabulous about them.He becomes Jamie for her and she becomes Jamie for him.Without eachother Jamie, THE LOVER is lost for ever.
Marie - excellent post. While I've only been married 17 years, I see your point. Can't wait to read EITB now! I was dreading it, but with your angle on it, I'm now looking forward to it.
Renee, do you think some of Claire's flatness (and I do agree she seems flat comapred to the previous novels) could be her character development? Like the 18th century just finally kicked her butt?
Two words. "Oh, poo!". That's my reaction to the 'trust DG and she'll show us in the next book' response. Ladies, we're discussing THIS book. It's a book, not a bridge. It should be complete in and of itself.As far as Jamie and Claire. Do you remember that this is a couple of months after the end of ABOSAA? Do you remember their relationship in that? You're going to tell me they've gone flat on each other in a couple of months? That Claire can lop off his finger with nary a moment of trepidation? That she's changed so much in such a short time? And Lord John? The man IS a gay man. He is not attracted to women. Jumping into bed with Claire to mourn Jamie makes no sense. He'd find a man for that. How is a woman supposed to remind him of Jamie? Especially Claire. No, sorry.
Sometimes a book is just not so good. It has nothing to do with liking or trusting Diana as an author. You know, it is quite possible for her to produce a book that is not up to the other books.
Christina- Character development does not make a character flat. Flat is flat. Claire's passion for Jamie seems to dwindle. Can you imagine it dwindling? In such a short time as well? Remember the timeline. We've been waiting for years, but in the time of the book it hasn't been that long since ABOSAA.
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Hope the X does not stand for 10 I'll be in the grave before the next book comes out. hehe!