In Search of Lost Time / À la Recherche du Temps Perdu Buddy Read - June 2020 until present

[Brenda]

Phrodrick, I've decided to move this read to audio, since I can progress faster, better keep up, and hopefully it makes it a bit more interesting for you. I'll finish book 1 today, and reply to the previous comments and your review and move on to the 2nd.

Hope that helps, and will keep you more motivated as well. :))

[Brenda]

edit: This was written before I realized I hadn't actually finished book I.

Right off the bat in book 2...I can't believe he married Odette!!!! I'm so mad right now. I swore at the end of book 1, he had found his senses. ugh.

Although I should have guessed it when in the beginning of book 1 we find that no one will receive his wife. NOW...after we've gotten all the truths out about lovely little Odette in the end of book 1, I can perfectly see why.

[Brenda]

Phrodrick wrote : I also like the pick up that he not only knew what she had been, but that was what brought them together .

I thought I remembered at the end of book 1, something about Swann knowing a hundred women, which I took to mean "knowing". Though I tried to look for the passage and could not find it. He also seems quite "friendly". Or did, until he me HER.

What i did find however, was that I failed to finish the first book. I did not realize the next section entitled Cities or whatever it was, continued the book, I thought it was footnotes or something. So, I'll finish that on Monday. So I suppose I need to amend my review, as Swann did not see the light at the end after all.

I started Book II, and the unfortunate thing about the audio is I don't really know where I am. He's gone to the play. There has not been a lot of excitement anyway.

[Phrodrick slowed his growing backlog]

If it helps:
Part one of book 2 was originally intended to be the last part of book 1. The publisher evidently believed that the reader needed a break.

Also between writing book 1 and book 2-WW I happened. Proust was concerned that his readers, just coming out of a war that was particularly hard on France (And a pandemic), would not be interested in more Fin de siècle snobbery.
His fans (his sales) convinced him to go back to it.

[Brenda]

So I did finally finish Swann's Way now, and read all of it.

I'm so glad I realized and went back to it as it really was a great section. I enjoyed the descriptions and was glad he'd moved on to something different than flowers and the like.

Although...I'm not happy about this whole Gilberte thing as she seems exactly like her mother, and I really don't want to read "Marcel's Way" in the next book, a duplicate of Swann making a fool of himself over the horrible Odette in the entire last half of the first book. Oh well. It is what it is, and I shall read on! I did start the 2nd book, but now that I've finished the first for real this time, I'm going to start it over.

[Brenda]

Well, so far in Book 2, I think I'd kill for some flowers. It's a bit dull. He went on and on about Phaedra and then when M. de Norpois said the actress was so lyrical, etc. and Marcel was like, oh, yeah, you're right. And just moved on.

[Phrodrick slowed his growing backlog]

WOW I think I missed Phaedra completly.
I am at almost to the page the 3/4 mark of book 2 and have 3 on order.

Personal issues have broken my reading habits, but I am chipping away
If it helps it take about 2/3 of book 2 to get to the young girls.

Id say more but it verges on a spoiler so I will wait.
I also have book two as a graphic novel, I may hold on book 3 until I scan through that one. I know the art work will be wonderful, so that will be worth the time all by itself.

In Search of Lost Time: In the Shadow of Young Girls in Flower

[Phrodrick slowed his growing backlog]

Not sure what translation you are reading .
Moncrieff felt that
In the Shadow of Young Girls in Flower was too much like an English expression for a girls' menarche, that he titled book 2: Within a Budding Grove.

[Brenda]

It’s Moncrieff. My actual book was the updated version of that, but the audio is not.

I’ve never read a graphic novel I don’t think. Thanks for the link, I’m going to investigate.,

It’s picking up a bit now. They learned M. de Norpois, I think it was him, he seems to be a fixture in the first part, they learned he dines at Swann’s house. That caused the gossip salivation glands to go full force! But still a lot of pining for Gilberte.

I think I may be starting to understand this whole « book » going into the second, as it doesn’t veer a lot from the first so far. A lot of description of various things. Some gossiping. Some pining. Dinner parties. Some talk on artists. A few PG-13 stories thrown in. I guess we’ll see if he follows the trend ?

He talked about Phaedra a bit in the beginning, he went to the play with his grandmother. He studied the play as he would, in detail, thought the actress was horrible, and went on about all of that for some time. M dN says she was great, Marcel says oh you’re right and then drops it. It was a little irritating after he’d just gone on and on about it.

I’m sorry to hear about your personal issues and hope you find a resolution soon.

[Brenda]

It seems that Marcel's imagination is a bit too active, and leaves him in many occasions very disappointed.

[Phrodrick slowed his growing backlog]

Brenda wrote: "It seems that Marcel's imagination is a bit too active, and leaves him in many occasions very disappointed."

"Marcel's imagination is a bit too active"

umm yupper and soccer includes some running (teasing)
I would hasten to add, a bit too self-absorbed

I sorta remember s bunch about The Comédie-Française or some other theater, but I cannot say much of it registered. Or was it the Opera Comique?

[Phrodrick slowed his growing backlog]

These are out of order and this is close to the end but I like it alot:

Quote:
We do not receive wisdom, we must discover it for ourselves, after a journey through the wilderness which no one else can make for us, which no one can spare us, for our wisdom is the point of view from which we come at last to regard the world. The lives that you admire, the attitudes that seem noble to you, have not been shaped by a paterfamilias or a schoolmaster, they have sprung from very different beginnings, having been influenced by evil or commonplace that prevailed round them. They represent a struggle and a victory.”
close quote

[Phrodrick slowed his growing backlog]

If you have not read it yet in Book two you must be close - just shy of the 1/2 way mark
"the magnifying lenses of the conjugal glasses"

I think I know what it might mean, but I would rather hear that it is a well known french expression.
What is your guess?

[Brenda]

It’s funny that you say that, in a different group (Francophiles) someone said they were going to read Proust (in English) during Covid. A response from a man from Quebec who is bilingual said, it needs to be read in French. It’s like trying to read Virginia Wolf not in English.

Who knows???

I found the passage... I just did an internet translate as my French is not that good yet... I put the original section underneath (A larger portion) if you want to play around with translations.

designated to the lens approaching the marital hand face the appearance of this unusual phenomenon; and perhaps it was by unconscious apprehension of that first minute that we know short but which is no less dreaded -like the first head you poke into the water

Peut-être sentait-elle que, si elle était arrivée inconnue au Grand-Hôtel de Balbec elle eût avec sa robe de laine noire et son bonnet démodé fait sourire quelque noceur qui de son «rocking» eût murmuré «quelle purée !» ou surtout quelque homme de valeur ayant gardé comme le premier président entre ses favoris poivre et sel, un visage frais et des yeux spirituels comme elle les aimait, et qui eût aussitôt désigné à la lentille rapprochante du face à main conjugal l'apparition de ce phénomène insolite; et peut-être était-ce par inconsciente appréhension de cette première minute qu'on sait courte mais qui n'est pas moins redoutée - comme la première tête qu'on pique dans l'eau

[Brenda]

With that, I don’t think I was there yet, I’m still with that writer... Balbette? Now I can’t remember his name.

But I read the passage, literally I would say your quote relates to when married, after while you see someone as they are, in detail... faults, weaknesses, hairs out of place, crooked teeth...
but I don’t feel like that fits in the context because she wanted to be incognito, but is that it? That she fears in those next few minutes to be seen in her naked reality, that’s the part that’s like jumping into the sea first? She’s afraid they’ll see HER? That’s why she “cocoons” and protects herself?

It’s an interesting part. Is it just a little aside? Hopefully I’ll get to it tomorrow. I’m tired of that writer!

I don’t think I’ve gotten to the opera/comédie française yet.

[Brenda]

I just had a quick two cents to add on the sections I'm getting through....

It is so tiring sometime to listen to those society ladies trying to get ahead and one up each other.

And.... how much of the last book was devoted to Swann pining after Odette, and now that they are united in holy matrimony, he's just catting around again. LOL

[Brenda]

However...as tiresome as those things I've just mentioned above, what I really like about Proust is in his telling and including the reader into his story. Its not about Marcel and his feelings about Gilberte, or Swann and Odette... he knows that we the reader (or at least me, as the reader) have ridden some of these same roller coaster of emotions and have known much of the feelings and states that these characters have gone through, and it is in this he includes us/we, in the story. The story then is about me/we, sometimes more than Marcel or Swann. If that makes sense?

[Brenda]

Marcel’s thoughts on the hotel manager in Balbec…

The only thing positive about him is his haughty condescension.

Well if this doesn’t sum up this whole tome in one sentence!!!!

[Phrodrick slowed his growing backlog]

Brenda wrote: "Marcel’s thoughts on the hotel manager in Balbec…

The only thing positive about him is his haughty condescension.

Well if this doesn’t sum up this whole tome in one sentence!!!!"

Just , Je ne sais pas
Perhaps the perfect one line review.

as for the magnifying lens, My best guess is something like:
As a single person we may not look or think to hard about another's appearance or behavior. once married we tend to be more critical. Kinda, When I was single I thought nothing of XYZ, but now that I am married, tut tut tut and etc.

[Phrodrick slowed his growing backlog]

AS I am now within pages of the end of book 2 I post this in hopes that you will be more aware when you get to this section and give me your version

Beginning around this nonsensical quote:
"The act of pressing Albertine's hand had a sensual sweetness that was in keeping somehow with the rosy, almost mauve coloring of her skin."
And continuing for pages either Marcel descends into insanity, proves himself to be a high functioning idiot or is teaching us about the strategies necessary to initiate and conduct a homosexual affair.

Granted he is speaking of his love for a woman, but his approach is barely reasonable for a 12 yr old, particularly inept child. By this point Marcel drinks, and I believe has been among the ladies of purchasable virtue. I do not accept that he has learn so little from his past experience of being in love.

[Brenda]

Thanks for the heads up, I’m just halfway through so it may be a few days, but I’ll beware.

[Brenda]

I think its interesting how much our culture has changed in the last decade or so, and things that were socially acceptable now make me cringe when I read it. Who would have previously ticked off their mental list that Proust has belittled Jewish people, black people and now fat people in his tome. Although we do know they are total snobs, so not to be unexpected, but still jarring when you come upon it.

And to me, a contrast to the two most liked characters in the book so far... Odette and Gilberte. Proust sets up whole groups of people to dislike, yet the most liked are these really horrible gals that don't have much to offer for themselves or society.

[Phrodrick slowed his growing backlog]

Proust was as openly pro-Dreyfus as he was, among his friends openly homosexual. It can be hard to tell but he is usually skewering gthe high society anti Semites, but also nuanced about the Jews who ,denied theirown in the name of social acceptance.,

[Brenda]

So do you think he’s making fun of these people? Making fun of the hypocrites I mean? That it’s more of a farce or a caricature?

But if that’s the case, why are some points so exactingly real... the descriptions of the tower, flowers, etc., or of Swann’s emotional roller coaster over Odette. Is that contrasted with these almost fantastical behaviors... to highlight it? I mean fantastical because of your comment that personally he was open minded.

This book is starting to feel like life. You trudge along, some days are interesting some are just tedious and you may get to the end and still not know what it was all for.

Part of me hopes, because I remember early on you saying the 2nd book was especially tedious if reading the Moncrieff edition, so I’m hoping 3 will pick up. Most of his stories from Balbec are just not very interesting. How did you find it? Which version did you read? I should finish by Friday.

[Phrodrick slowed his growing backlog]

I finished the Yale, annotated Carter version and for the heck of it I am about 1/3 into the Heuet graphic version. For example the entire first section of book 2 is one sentence in the Heuet copy and it begins with the trip to Balbec.

[Brenda]

Sometimes I feel like 5 sentences would have sufficed for the 500+ pages.

[Phrodrick slowed his growing backlog]

umm maybe ten?

[Brenda]

Phrodrick wrote: Beginning around this nonsensical quote:
"The act of pressing Albertine's hand had a sensual sweetness that was in keeping somehow with the rosy, almost mauve coloring of her skin."
And continuing for pages either Marcel descends into insanity, proves himself to be a high functioning idiot or is teaching us about the strategies necessary to initiate and conduct a homosexual affair.

Granted he is speaking of his love for a woman, but his approach is barely reasonable for a 12 yr old, particularly inept child. By this point Marcel drinks, and I believe has been among the ladies of purchasable virtue. I do not accept that he has learn so little from his past experience of being in love.

Is he only 12? The girls are only girls aren't they? (you said he's speaking of his love for a woman, did I miss that?)

I kept wondering how Marcel knew what "love" was. How could he be in love with this girl, as a child himself from seeing her at a hotel a few times. What does a boy of that age know about love? I also think he gives us quite a good opinion of himself, rather inflated in many instances.

I don't know that he learned anything from Gilberte, as Albertine seems a lot like her. She makes excuses and goes to other events, invites him to her room and "rings the bell" all innocent like.

Sometimes it just seems like the made up ramblings of someone that spends too much time at home, but wants us to believe he is worldly and well liked, etc.

Or am I missing your question?

So I've finished. I am going to take a break from Proust for a week or so, and start 3 next month. I did not care for book 2 much, except that Gilberte didn't end up to be the dragging on drama that Odette was in Book 1. There was not much to break up the endless dialogue about nothing. I would have killed for a flower I think, but Marcel was just using the botanist painter to get to the girls. I don't even think I can review this. What do I review??? lol

[Phrodrick slowed his growing backlog]

Marcel's age at this point is a tad un clear.
I have seen estimates from about 14-early 20. I am willing to believe a young ish teen 14-17.
My Reference to age 12 was not a guess as to his age, but a call out on his lack of- take your pick: Thinking , understanding, whatever.

My issue is not how young he is or how young the women may have been. None are believed to be virgins. What ever that is worth.

Marcel tosses around "love" a lot. He may or may not have any clue. His definitions of what it means to be in love are many and varied. I am not sure I care if I got them all, much less agreed with them.

All of the female love objects, no matter the man seem to be from the same cut. Maybe being a homosexual, he has problems with the idea of heterosexual love.

[Brenda]

Gotcha.

Why is heterosexual love different from homosexual love? Isn’t love “love”?

Why are they all the same? Why did Marcel fall in love with Gilberte as Swann did Odette? Is that a theme? Lol

I think I go back to my statement before, he has an over active imagination. Also, he has grandiose thoughts and ideals, and he’s coddled. He’s like bubble boy, the reality is very strange.

I wonder if it loses a lot in translation? I’m really curious where it will go from here. I’ve not read at all anything about it really as I wanted a fresh perspective. I hope he grows up a bit in the next books, or finds another protagonist. Marcel gets annoying and a bit better in smaller doses yet there are no small doses in Proust.

I was thinking on the themes and found this study guide which I found enlightening. Probably because part of me thinks it should be deeper, being that it’s Proust's epic work, but I think it really is as we’re seeing it.

https://www.cummingsstudyguides.net/G...

[Phrodrick slowed his growing backlog]

Why is heterosexual love different from homosexual love? Isn’t love “love”?

I came back to this point twice. And for 2 reasons
1. Proust may be having the same problems with hetrosexual love as many male writers have with their female characters. As for that other than female relatives, he does not say much nice about women. His men friends either work out or do not. Also note the female love interests tend to have male sounding names. simon and simone
2. Homosexual love in his time and place was sometimes winked at, but could as easily be very dangerous. I speculate that there are barely covered sub plots of both gay and lesbian love in books 1 and 2.

Marcel may be signaling to those who know, that some kinds of affairs have to be more circumspectly approached.Charlus was in his bedroom with all that floo floo about lending Marcel a book, but it was 100% an effort by the older man to bed a semi oblivious Marcel.

I have read that Proust is using some characters and situations to set us up for later books. Maybe part of what your analyst was saying about Remembrance as a view of a decaying Fin de siècle "gay nineties" France. I have a annotation that there are characters who are there only as setups for future use. But then this copy is up to its flyleaf in annotations.

Did you know Beethoven wrote famous music?

[Brenda]

Who is Beethoven?

Thank you, you’ve given me the ability to put more depth to a bunch of words I just read.

I hadn’t even thought of the names, but yes. You don’t think it’s a cover up do you? If it was really a mixed group, I think that section might have made more sense. He wouldn’t have seemed like such a ninny.

I think I said this before, but sometimes it’s just exasperating that on one hand he acts like a total little prig, but then he’s watching lesbians and hanging out with girls who are not so virtuous.

Well I do hope it is a set up for something.

[Phrodrick slowed his growing backlog]

I had planned to go right into book 3, I have the Mark Treharne translation in hand. Instead I am taking a short break. I have just started two classes and am not sure what that will do to my reading time.

[Brenda]

👍🏼 I was taking a break until September, so I can wait and see where you’re at when you find your feet.

Will your classes be interesting I hope?

[Phrodrick slowed his growing backlog]

Depends on how much you like research and Crime Analysis.
The Research Methods course looks to be a strange definition of interesting.

[Phrodrick slowed his growing backlog]

In Case your interested my review:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

[Brenda]

A little short bio on Proust, mostly related to where he lived and frequented in Paris if you’re interested.

https://www.francetoday.com/travel/pa...

[Brenda]

Another interesting little read focused on Proust in Illiers-Combray

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nyti...

[Phrodrick slowed his growing backlog]

Thank you for those

[Phrodrick slowed his growing backlog]

I may get to start The Germantes way in a day or two. In any case it will be on a slow read.
Too much competition for my time.

[Brenda]

Ah, so you’ll get to really savor all the descriptions.

I think I will start after the holiday then. Thanks for letting me know.

[Phrodrick slowed his growing backlog]

I am at page 100 and expect to maintain about 75 pages per week. Maybe early November for the big finish of book 3. And still less than 1/2 way

[Brenda]

I just started today. It’s audio, so always hard to tell where I’m at.
It seems so far like the first two volumes however.

[Brenda]

I’ve not much to say so far. It doesn’t differ a lot from 1 & 2, just different characters.

[Brenda]

I did just come across this little ditty which made me chuckle... "besides, the life of the people is not distinguished enough to interest your little snobbicules." Love the word/translation "Snobbicules" I should try to find the original text and what the word is, if there is actually a word in French that means "Snobbicules".

I also liked a sentence closely after... Certain memories are like friends in common, they can bring about reconciliations.

[Brenda]

One of the things I have really struggled with reading these, and I'm also finding it happening with some Jane Austen reads lately, so I'm wondering if it's just the laying on thick of satire....?

His characters aren't pleasant as a whole. For me, I don't find many of them really likable for the most part. Or at least what Proust is giving us, (or Marcel), seems to be generally their worst nature. Their snobbery, jealousy, coquettishness, etc. Am I missing it? As I don't seem to feel a full picture of these characters. They can't all be ruled by their vice and not have any virtues. Unless that's just what my mind in particular is picking up?

But that's why I wonder if its just a satire of these character traits people have and he's emphasizing that? As Jane Austen likes to do, but sometimes to the point of one wants to tear their hair out because a character can be so over the top horrid. Although I guess there are horrid people in this world. But I can't believe most human nature is entirely evil and people do have SOME good qualities. Where are they?

That's why I can only take this book in small doses I think and have to move on to something more cheery. It gets to me after while. Am I off base?

[Phrodrick slowed his growing backlog]

As I read into book three I am having similar problems. I think we are seeing these people at least as much as Marcel sees. So an incomplete image is all that is possible.

It may be that Proust is trying to emphasize that this is a society in decay. WW I is about to blast it apart, but it is sinking under its own weight.

[Brenda]

He needs a wider circle of friends. Although he does have a wide circle.

Sometimes I feel like I’m sitting with my grandmother, trying to be polite, as she tells different versions of the same story. Over. And Over. And Over. 😂😂

I’ve never wished for a war to start so badly I don’t think.

[Brenda]

Did you get to the part about Marcel's Uncle's friend, the lady dressed in pink? I should have guessed, I'm betting you did!

And I'm finding the part with the doctor talking about neurosis refreshing, I don't know why.

[Brenda]

And continuing after the neurosis also strays from the deluge of his snobby society acquaintances, so while its not quite cheery at that point, it is more engrossing.